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Why is it better to get lean before bulking?

D

DanielBishop

New member
Sorry, Mr X.... I know I asked this question at the end of an earlier thread.... but I forgot which one it was and now I can't find it.

You suggest that people get leaner before going onto a bulking phase, and say it will improve the success of the bulking.

Please explain why and how?
 
I think because if you bulk when your BF is semi high, at the end of the bulk your gonna look like a fat pig. But if you bulk when your lean, by the end you won't look to fat.
 
fatass

As you get fatter your body adds more fat cells, which don't go away when you diet (they just get smaller). So your capacity to store fat gets better and better.

Excess calories that are not usable by your other tissues (including muscle) will get stored as fat. This is something you don't want to get good at!

You also grow better when you're lean (or especially after you dieted for a while). More muscle gained and less fat.

Don't get fat, and if you are, diet. If you don't know if you're fat or not, look in the mirror. It won't lie to you.
 
Re: fatass

HappyFunBall said:
As you get fatter your body adds more fat cells, which don't go away when you diet (they just get smaller). So your capacity to store fat gets better and better.
Click to expand...

Are you sure about this?

I was always under the impression that you constantly have the same number of fat cells, its just when your body stores fat the fat cells you have expand.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
fatassitis

I'm pretty sure about this, I've read it in lots of places. Mr. X would know moe. Here is a good quote from the page link below:

"It's now known that we can -- and do, in fact -- "grow" more fat cells in adulthood, and that obese people have more fat cells than non-obese people. What happens is that when fat cells have expanded to their maximum size, they can divide, thus producing an increase in the actual number of fat cells. Obesity develops when a person's fat cells increase either in number (called hyperplasia), in size (called hypertrophy) or very often in both. "

Here's a good article on it:
http://www.ivillage.com/diet/experts/wlcoach/qas/0,5090,165511_36838,00.html
 
DanielBishop said:
Sorry, Mr X.... I know I asked this question at the end of an earlier thread.... but I forgot which one it was and now I can't find it.

You suggest that people get leaner before going onto a bulking phase, and say it will improve the success of the bulking.

Please explain why and how?
Click to expand...

I answered this already...please go search for the post next time.

Think of it this way: if you're 10%bf and add 4% bodyfat bulking up than you're only 14%bf which is fairly easy to drop from. Now, if you're 18%bf and add 4%, you'll be 22% bf which will increase bodyfat cell count to such a degree that fat-loss will become harder and harder; plus, you'll be a fatass.

Mr.X
 
Re: Re: fatass

crash3837 said:


Are you sure about this?

I was always under the impression that you constantly have the same number of fat cells, its just when your body stores fat the fat cells you have expand.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Click to expand...

He's right: the NUMBER of fat-cells can INCREASE but can NEVER decrease, only lose size and shrink. So, the less you have the better.

p.s. by never I'm discounting lypo and PGF2a

Mr.X
 
Re: Re: Re: fatass

Mr.X said:


He's right: the NUMBER of fat-cells can INCREASE but can NEVER decrease, only lose size and shrink. So, the less you have the better.

p.s. by never I'm discounting lypo and PGF2a

Mr.X
Click to expand...

I see, I see my bad.
It didn't sink in when I was reading his post that he was describing exactly what I was saying.
 
But there's no physiological reason why your ability to gain muscle mass would be increased if you're leaner? Fat cells aren't catabolic or anything? Lean people don't absorb protein better or stimulate more insulin or testosterone? Nothing like that?

Just that the fat you gain during your bulking phase will be much easier to deal with.... righto.
 
fatpimp said:
sorry... just one question.. what is PGF2a? thanks :)
Click to expand...

PGF2a is that stuff they inject into femal dogs for them to go into heat....

Mr.X
 
"But there's no physiological reason why your ability to gain muscle mass would be increased if you're leaner? Fat cells
aren't catabolic or anything? Lean people don't absorb protein better or stimulate more insulin or testosterone? Nothing
like that? "

Wrong. The leaner you are, the higher the percent of weight gained will be muscle. Likewise if you are fat, you will add a higher percent of fat when 'bulking". This 'anabolic window' is what many knowledgeable bodybuilders take advantage of in the first few weeks post competition. It most likely is tied up closely with leptin levels and insulin sensitivity. With good diet and training you can gain a large proportion of LBM during this time. The other side of this coin is that it's easier for a fat dude to lose mostly fat with minimal LBM loss during the start of his diet.

Then there's the modernized 'setpoint' theory of fat gain which basically means that your body will remember the fattest it's ever been in life, and try very hard to return to that level of fatness after a diet. Don't ever let yourself get fat because you will forever more gravitate back to that bodyfat level.
 
You may get away with it if you don't stay fat for very long. The long term problems seem to kick in if you let your weight 'stabilize' at a higher %fat so your body becomes accustomed to it. However if you've kept you fat off since your early teens, then you probably don't have too much to worry about?

As a side note, it seems your body 'remembers' your total fat mass, not your % fat. So you may have been 30% fat and 100 lbs (therefore of 30 lbs fat) at age 13, yet you might, with puberty, manage to gain 50 lbs of LBM and no fat making you only 20% fat, but your brain is still happy because it gets to keep it's 30 lbs of fat.......
 
MS, please tell me about "muscle memory".... it's kinda along the same lines.

Is it true that if you lose muscle through dieting or a lay-off from training, or perhaps illness etc.... your body will be able to quickly return to that size when you get back into proper diet and training? Something like that? Please explain.
 
"Muscle memory" may be based more on the conversion (differentiation) of certain types of muscle fiber due to resistance training. This conversion seems to not only be permanent, but there is a possibility that a lay-off from resistance training also stimulates fromation of new undifferentiated fibers for future training periods. Although the exact mechanisms are not understood, there is a very real effect of previous training on "muscle memory", and some evidence to show that we respond EVEN BETTER to resistance training by taking time off and allowing the muscle memory to kick in....
 
I don't understand what this means. Does this mean that people who HAVE been obese are not able to get to say 5% bodyfat or are you saying it's easier for them to BECOME fat again if they slip up on their diet? The reason I ask is when I was say between 15-16.5 I was a COMPLETE fat ass, like 40% but I lost it all over the course of the next year. I'm now 19 and trying to cut and would ideally like to get to say 7-8% but by the sounds of this post it seems as though it's gonna be near impossible :(. So what's the deal, does this mean it's going to be HARDER than it would be if I never got fat or what?
 
From a practical point of view you should still be able to get down to 7-8%. But you will possibly lose a lot more muscle to get there than someone who has never been over 15% and is dropping to the same %fat. Your body will also fight harder to hang on to those last few %, and will fight even harder to make sure you gain it all back again once you start dieting. But you gotta try these things for yourself, and if the loss of LBM bothers you you can always just use AAS.
 
MS said:
From a practical point of view you should still be able to get down to 7-8%. But you will possibly lose a lot more muscle to get there than someone who has never been over 15% and is dropping to the same %fat. Your body will also fight harder to hang on to those last few %, and will fight even harder to make sure you gain it all back again once you start dieting. But you gotta try these things for yourself, and if the loss of LBM bothers you you can always just use AAS.
Click to expand...

EDITED.....

tell the guy to take some GH and some insulin while your at it. hit up some test too LOL

SteR- you dont need steroids man, but hell its your body
 
Hey chill out lifter. I am the last person on this board to advocate AAS for dieting or any other purpose short of 'medical'. I was just giving him unbiased info. The steroids will NOT help him get cut, they will merely help him to retain more muscle while HE does the hard work of diet and exercise. They are totally unnecessary though. I was just pointing out that he is likely to lose muscle mass in his quest to get down to 7% bf WITHOUT AAS. same applies to anyone to a greater or lesser degree. I've been to 7%bf without any steroids and I'm a FEMALE, so of course he can do it. But I DID sacrifice muscle too!
 
nclifter6feet6 said:


EDITED.....

tell the guy to take some GH and some insulin while your at it. hit up some test too LOL

SteR- you dont need steroids man, but hell its your body
Click to expand...

nclifter6feet6,

Tone down the insults, one more time and I'll have to edit all your posts.

Mr.X
 
What a kind service you provide there mr. x. your a real thoughtful person to edit my posts. im not too good at speeling and punctuia'n,. what a kind man you are:rolleyes:
 
i think u dont like me for whatever reason.....

maybe i should bump up a post from a few weaks ago or maybe you can edit that one aswell for your own sake
 
Re: Re: Re: fatass

Mr.X said:


He's right: the NUMBER of fat-cells can INCREASE but can NEVER decrease, only lose size and shrink. So, the less you have the better.

p.s. by never I'm discounting lypo and PGF2a

Mr.X
Click to expand...
Exactly right. The # of fat cells you have is largely dependant on genetics and adolescence. When u diet what u are doing is decreasing the size of your fat cells. When you get fatter these cells increase in size but eventually they can only expand to a certain size and at that point the actual # of fat cells also increases. The more you have, the easier you will put on fat. The only way to lose the actual # of fat cells, like Mr. X said is lipo and the even painful PGF2.

Whether u should bulk or cut first all depends on where you're at. If you're above 12 or 13% BF I think dieting may be in order first.
 
nclifter6feet6 said:
i think u dont like me for whatever reason.....

maybe i should bump up a post from a few weaks ago or maybe you can edit that one aswell for your own sake
Click to expand...

I provide a FREE service that I do not get paid for, I do not pretend to sit here behind the computer and act like GOD. However, if you INSULT people I will edit your posts, if you do it again I will ask for you to be banned. I do NOT make the rules, they are ALREADY MADE by George. Please do not come out w/ attitude towards anything I do, I don't care for it. If you don't like this board or what I do here, you can just go somewhere else, this is a free country no body is making you stay.

Mr.X
 
ah crud. I understand I'll lose a bit of muscle when cutting but I just want to know if I can actually get to say as low as 5% bodyfat. Last summer I managed to cut to about 12% and I lost a fair bit of muscle however I didn't really take it as seriously as I am now. This year I'm pretty much trying everything I can to reduce muscle loss and I'm now taking ZMA, ECA, 30g glutamine a day and trying to take 1.5g protein per lb bodyweight. So far I'm 3 weeks into cutting and I haven't noticed any muscle loss, heck I seem to have gained a bit on some lifts. Anyway I have 9 weeks left and I REALLY want to get sub 10% this time, I just need to know it's possible with the way I'm cutting. I posted my cutting diet a few weeks ago and I've now scrapped the running pre-breakfast for 1 hour of fast-paced walking to reduce muscle loss. Is there anything else I can do to get lean other than resorting to drugs? (which I'll never do). Oh yea, another thing that bothers me is because I was obese for a year or two I have stretched skin around my stomach. It's not like hanging off me but I'm concerned that if i do get lean I will have a fair bit of lose skin which may appear to make me look fat. What can I do about that? Sorry I seem to have gone on a bit but it's REALLY important to me that I get lean this summer, I promised myself I would do it and I've given up alcohol and sugar etc etc which is excrutiatingly hard considering I'm in my first year at university AAAAAAAH!l;kasjdfl;a :(. :fro:
 
I'm in almost the same boat, SteR. I was up to 35-ish bodyfat in my early teens. lots of exercise in the summer before college and the summer after 1st year, got me down to 10-15% (no caliper access) with nasty fat distribution, and a kind of gross lower stomach.

now I'm at the cutting again, using a cycle of 4 days low-calorie, low-carb, and 1 day (controlled) refeed, which is also lifting day. also using a topical yohimbine product, on the lower stomach.

the good news is that that area is definitely shrinking.

I think my body is acting like I'm at a lower bf%, however. I need to refeed after 4 days, I absolutely can't hold out any longer. except for my abs/ lower back, I look like I'm at 7% or something. my arms, upper torso, neck, face, legs all look really really lean.

the topical yohimbine seems to be helping a lot, but any other suggestions about this type of situation would be cool. Is it possible that I developed larger-than-normal estrogenic fat deposits from being obese in the past?
 
I'd say it's just your natural fat patterns.... your body gains fat on your mid-section first, and loses it last.

Me personally, I gain fat on my ass first.... I can gain quite a bit of weight (fat) and still have definition in my abs.... I just tend to thicken up around my obliques and lower back while packing it onto my ass. Then all of a sudden, my lower abs gain it all.

I don't know about the larger-than-normal cells, but if you're lean everywhere else.... you're probably facing the same problem that we all do: Your body is fighting you to keep those last few pounds of fat. The last few are always most difficult.
 
Tagio said:
I'm in almost the same boat, SteR. I was up to 35-ish bodyfat in my early teens. lots of exercise in the summer before college and the summer after 1st year, got me down to 10-15% (no caliper access) with nasty fat distribution, and a kind of gross lower stomach.

now I'm at the cutting again, using a cycle of 4 days low-calorie, low-carb, and 1 day (controlled) refeed, which is also lifting day. also using a topical yohimbine product, on the lower stomach.

the good news is that that area is definitely shrinking.

I think my body is acting like I'm at a lower bf%, however. I need to refeed after 4 days, I absolutely can't hold out any longer. except for my abs/ lower back, I look like I'm at 7% or something. my arms, upper torso, neck, face, legs all look really really lean.

the topical yohimbine seems to be helping a lot, but any other suggestions about this type of situation would be cool. Is it possible that I developed larger-than-normal estrogenic fat deposits from being obese in the past?
Click to expand...

I'm similar. I was at 7 or 8% with measurements of like 5mm - 8mm everywhere but my stomach, which was 14mm. The only chub I had left was on my lower stomach and on my lower back. I HATE THAT FUCKIN' FAT! Oh well, I can get rid of it eventually. But not now. I'm trying to gain weight, and it's going good.
 
The loose skin MAY go away over time as long as you don't put the fat back on. Some people are luckier than others with this. Since you're still young, you've got a better chance at tightening up that loose skin than us older folks that lose a lot of weight.

Anyway SteR, it sounds like you're on the right track this time, though you might want to make your cutting goal a little less harsh. Why not aim for ~8% bf instead of 5%?? You will still look pretty good, plus most of the muscle you lose will be in getting from 8% down to 5%. Is it really worth that last 3% to screw up your metabolism, lose all that muscle and feel like death for a body that can't be maintained at that level for very long?
 
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