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Why dosages are going up uP UP!!!

Nelson Montana

Chairman of Board
Chairman Member
There's been a few threads lately regarding the dismay over newbie dosages. Instead of responding to them all, I figured I'd start a new one and give my impression as to why this is so, with a simple history lesson.


(Dates are circa)

1955: The word is out that a certain Dr. John Zeigler invented a pill that helps to grow muscle and increase strength. Every bodybuilder is both curious and cautious. Some world class bodybuilders decide to go against the bodybuilding credo of "health above all" and experiement. John Grimik takes one pill a day for a week and declares "They do nothing!"

1965: The concensous is that 2 dianabol a day is considered safe and effective by members of the medical community if intake does not exceed 8 weeks. The new Weider stars such as Larry Scot, Dave Draper, Don Howorth, Harold Poole and Rick Wayne push the envelope and suddenly a new era of muscularity is born.

1970: Arnold Schwarzenegger is hellbent on success and will do anything to acheive it. He ups the dosages and blows away the competition. Everyone follows suit. Soon, the pro ranks out weigh the competitors of just a few years ago by 30-40 pounds.

1980: Drug use is rampant and the side effects which were once scoffed at, have begun to rear their ugly head. Still, use is monitored by doctors.

1985: Drugs are outlawed and go "underground." Soon afterward, Dan Duchaine releases the groundbreaking USH and a new generation becomes informed about "radical, balls to the walls, hardcore steroid use." It is geared to competitive BB's. Dan suggests up to 500 mgs a week.

1990: Muscle Media 2000 becomes the first magazine to openly discuss drug use in a flpant and cavalier manner, yet with the emphasis on safety. It's an instant success. Other mags follow with similar information.

1995: The internet explodes. Anyone can say anything and every kid with a computer is an expert. Muscle Media changes it's format and the other mags follow. There is no more "mainstream" drug info but there's a endless supply of drug data for free on the net.

2000: Rumors of pro bodybuilding dosages get more and more exagerated. Suddenly a gram is considered the "norm". AFter all, no one's dying from it, right? Before long, everybody with a gym membership scores a source and sees how easy it is to grow. If a gram works well, 1500 a week will work better. And so it goes.

2001: Newbies come to the boards and see the dosage recomendations. They hear a gram a week is fine. They do their first cycle.

2003: After three years of drug use, the same guy weighs 180 pounds at 14% bf, never heard of hack squat, is up to 2 grams a week, and wants to know why he isn't growing. He goes to a BB forum and says he's thinking of giving it up. The advice is usually to take more gear and more anciliaries.

2005: ?
 
well nelson.... i'm planning on doing a cycle of 250mg sust for 10 weeks with tren @ 25mg EOD for 10 weeks also
 
i just don't get it really anymore with the dosages. look at my current cycle. i mean i have done a ton of cycles and am still gaining awesome. i guess if they think it works better and don't want to listen then fuck em. they can waste their money and possibly hurt themselves. the guys here that give good advice can only say so much.
 
Post seems kind of general. How about everyone in the United States tends to overconsume everything from food to antibiotics, if some works then more should work a hell of a lot better.

We overconsume oil, food, alcohol everything. Bodybuilders are set up for this just like women and body image, the strong, verile, muscular man, etc etc.
 
I can still remember my first cycle 9 years ago and I had one bottle of t200. Gained 14 lbs from it. That cycle lasted 7 weeks, nowhere near a gram. It is simply the more is better attitude that is prevalent today.
 
The dosages are getting rediculous. I usually do test only cycles in the 500-600/week range and get good results. Hoping to go on HRT soon and still keep cycle dosages low.
 
Nelson Montana said:



2001: Newbies come to the boards and see the dosage recomendations. They hear a gram a week is fine. They do their first cycle.

2003: After three years of drug use, the same guy weighs 180 pounds at 14% bf, never heard of hack squat, is up to 2 grams a week, and wants to know why he isn't growing. He goes to a BB forum and says he's thinking of giving it up. The advice is usually to take more gear and more anciliaries.


Which is why I tend to not post on this section of the board. People seem to consider a post count as degree of knowledge, and some of the moderators and many of the "vets" (and I use the term loosely) are responsible for these mega-doses.
At my age it is harder to grow/maintain than 99% of this board, and yet seemingly I do it on 1 cycle a year, with doses never above 600-700mg/week of combined chemicals.
 
Well I completely disagree on dosages. Its very clear what the problem is.......its not dosages, its education. Plain and simple. To say that a bodybuilder that takes 500mg will grow the say as if he took 1000mg, is ludicrous. This assumes that the bodybuilder is educated and understands training and proper diet.

You cant say that high dosages don't work, you need to say that the big picture here is that UNDEREDUCATED bodybuilders with any form of gear don't work.
 
Re: Re: Why dosages are going up uP UP!!!

The Republican said:
People seem to consider a post count as degree of knowledge, and some of the moderators and many of the "vets" (and I use the term loosely) are responsible for these mega-doses.=

Can you give me one example where a mod ever told a newbie that it was ok to take a gram a week?
 
the way i look at it is this, us vets can sit here and say don't do this all day long, but you got other idiots that portray knowledge and experience they don't have and put shit in people's heads.....thus high dosage cycles

perfect example...JimmyJonesJunior

he told everyone how safe insulin was and that only an idiot could go into hypo, next day he's asking how to numb the skin because he's afraid of needles...fuckers like this should be banned
 
DRRman said:
perfect example...JimmyJonesJunior

he told everyone how safe insulin was and that only an idiot could go into hypo, next day he's asking how to numb the skin because he's afraid of needles...fuckers like this should be banned

He was banned the same day :)
 
Re: Re: Re: Why dosages are going up uP UP!!!

kronk said:


Can you give me one example where a mod ever told a newbie that it was ok to take a gram a week?

I never said that a mod has told some kid "Hey you, take a gram a week."

But, many of the moderators I have seen post on this section often talk about how they take 1.5-2g of gear per week and are getting results and they feel fine, and so on and so on.

Now, just think of the thought process of some 18 year old who comes on here looking to get jacked quickly to impress the girls. You think hell listen to me while I suggest that maybe 500mg total for 7-8 weeks is a good idea while at the same time they read topics by moderators about how their current cycle consists of:

Testosterone 1000mg weeks 1-35
Fina 300mg every day for weeks 1-16
Dianabol 75mg every day for weeks 1-10
Then some winstrol to finish off the cycle at 150mg every day for weeks 30-40.

Its basic common sense here in action. I dont pay much attention to this platinum business but there should be a F.A.Q. at the top of this page stating that those who take above a gram per week for a cycle are either competitors, 300 pounders, or plain ignorant.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Why dosages are going up uP UP!!!

The Republican said:


I never said that a mod has told some kid "Hey you, take a gram a week."

But, many of the moderators I have seen post on this section often talk about how they take 1.5-2g of gear per week and are getting results and they feel fine, and so on and so on.

Now, just think of the thought process of some 18 year old who comes on here looking to get jacked quickly to impress the girls. You think hell listen to me while I suggest that maybe 500mg total for 7-8 weeks is a good idea while at the same time they read topics by moderators about how their current cycle consists of:

Testosterone 1000mg weeks 1-35
Fina 300mg every day for weeks 1-16
Dianabol 75mg every day for weeks 1-10
Then some winstrol to finish off the cycle at 150mg every day for weeks 30-40.

Its basic common sense here in action. I don't pay much attention to this platinum business but there should be a F.A.Q. at the top of this page stating that those who take above a gram per week for a cycle are either competitors, 300 pounders, or plain ignorant.

I agree about a sticky first of all. Secondly, I wasn't arguing just trying to understand. The problem is this my friend, if a mod or a vet says they are doing those types of dosages, they are simply having a discussion about their cycles. They cant be expected to not talk about their own experiences. If they are asked for help, they would never give advice to a newbie about taking that kind of dosage.

Mods or vet or anyone can not be help responsible for the ignorance of others, we can only try to help when asked. At least this is what I do. I also never talk about usage in a personal nature as I only share clients results. Its irresponsible to lay blame on mods, vet, members or the board for peoples ignorance. We can only hope that more people read, search, and fill their heads with knowledge before putting anything in their body's. If they don't, they are going to do what they want anyway. If they ask me for help, you can be assured that proper advice will be given to the best of my abilities.

Also, on a final note, if I see a member giving out retarded advice, I edit their post and send them a warning. Case in point that Jimmy kid. I gave him a warning and refuted his posts and he didn't shut up, so we as mods banned his ass. :)

Cheers.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why dosages are going up uP UP!!!

kronk said:


I agree about a sticky first of all. Secondly, I wasn't arguing just trying to understand. The problem is this my friend, if a mod or a vet says they are doing those types of dosages, they are simply having a discussion about their cycles. They cant be expected to not talk about their own experiences. If they are asked for help, they would never give advice to a newbie about taking that kind of dosage.

Mods or vet or anyone can not be help responsible for the ignorance of others, we can only try to help when asked. At least this is what I do. I also never talk about usage in a personal nature as I only share clients results. Its irresponsible to lay blame on mods, vet, members or the board for peoples ignorance. We can only hope that more people read, search, and fill their heads with knowledge before putting anything in their body's. If they don't, they are going to do what they want anyway. If they ask me for help, you can be assured that proper advice will be given to the best of my abilities. Cheers.

I apologize, maybe I should have worded that differently. Im not trying to place blame on anyone, I was merely pointing out the psychology behind why many today are taking such high doses. 2 kids see some competitor talk about it, so they use 2g per week. Then 2 kids see them, then 2 kids see them, etc etc etc.

I would personally like it if whenever any 250 pounders discussed their cycles openly on the board, they could include some sort of disclaimer explaining how long they have been doing this and why it is a bad idea for kids to use these doses. Because despite people getting blood tests at certain times or saying they have experienced no side effects, there are negative consequences for those types of insane dosages.

I am not naive enough to believe that anyone will utilize or even take to heart this type of disclaimer, but hey, I can dream cant I?:)
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why dosages are going up uP UP!!!

The Republican said:


I apologize, maybe I should have worded that differently. Im not trying to place blame on anyone, I was merely pointing out the phsycology behind why many today are taking such high doses. 2 kids see some competitor talk about it, so they use 2g per week. Then 2 kids see them, then 2 kids see them, etc etc etc.

I would personally like it if whenever any 250 pounders discussed their cycles openly on the board, they could include some sort of disclaimer explaining how long they have been doing this and why it is a bad idea for kids to use these doses. Because despite people getting blood tests at certain times or saying they have experienced no side effects, there are negative consequences for those types of insane dosages.

I am not naive enough to believe that anyone will utilize or even take to heart this type of disclaimer, but hey, I can dream cant I?:)

I agree, and would hope that theses guys do say something to that effect. We should all do the best we can to share knowledge, and try and help others in a productive way. Unfortunately, there are other who don't feel like they need to, which is sad in my opinion.

We can all dream my man, and I share a bit of yours as well. Peace and respect.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why dosages are going up uP UP!!!

kronk said:




We can all dream my man, and I share a bit of yours as well. Peace and respect.

Take care my son.
 
The main problem is that some people will only want to listen to guys who are huge. The other problem is that lots of these huge guys needed a bunch of gear to get there. Not only that, they need even more gear to move beyond that level. So the newbies see these guys talking about their big cycles and take note of their doses.

Now if one of us smaller (or not as big) guys comes around saying we use less than a gram a week of combined AAS, the kids/newbies don't want to listen to us because we're "small" and don't know what we're talking about. These kind of people are only going to perpetuate their irresponsibility. Most likely their training/diet is shitty because they haven't done proper research on that either. So they use lots of AAS and don't get the results they wanted (being huge). So the next cycle they use even more gear.

Most of these guys don't realize the amount of time and dedication it takes to be a fucking monster. Sure I would like to be enormous, but for me that's not really realistic. I can't be confined to such a strict routine of timed meals, unchanging sleep pattern, and strict adherence to workout schedules. There's only so far you can go trying to juggle a "normal" life and bodybuilding, no matter how much gear you're taking. If you want to reach that next step you either have to have damn good genetics, or make bodybuilding your entire life.

If more of these newbies understood these facts, they might not be doing the ridiculous things necessary for unattainable goals.
 
This has been gone over before. Problem is gear has become cheap and easy to get. Years ago if you hadn't been around the gym for awhile no one would even talk to you about it. A gram a week of whatever would cost a fortune and be considered outrageous. I remember a guy that was talked about in the gym. He was considered an idiot for taking 10 5mg Dianabols a day. If you wanted to get bigger and stronger you had to train hard like everyone else.
I've been weight training over 15 years and have yet to go over 900mgs a week of combined drugs. And that was the most I've ever done, usually it's around 700mgs. It's simply not needed. I've seen pics posted on this board of members doing more drugs then me and barely look like they workout. But don't expect it to end any time soon. Years from now we'll probably see the results of this abuse.
 
Last edited:
Nelson excellent post, and it's all true.

Genarr, what you posted is exactly what I think. If you see some people who post pic's, they look like they never touched a weight, or have been working out for less than a year, then you find out they take a gram a week. What a joke!

I see too many people on here taking outrageous dosages, and some aren't even 200lbs! And I'm not talking people who are 5'5-5'8, you see people 5'10-6'2 etc weighing 190 doing crazy cycles. On top of it, you see many of them complaining that the gear is fake. Hell, if they couldn't break 200 natural at that height, and now they can't grow on steroids, then maybe they need to eat, and pick up a barbell.

If you look on the training board, and see someone like Clint, someone who doesn't make excuses, and manages to make progress time and time again, it's plain to see hard work (both with training and nutrition) is the answer, and not something found in a vial taken in outrageous dosages.

ps. I don't blame the mod's either. Most of them are ADVANCED users. Look at Quad, he never tells anyone to take high doses. He himself, at a very high level in the sport, doesn't take a fraction of what others take, hell he takes less than some newbies on the board!
 
Yes Nelson I too have kept with safe normal dosages and I agree 100% with your reasoning, if I would have started that say with a gram a week, I'd be hurting myself more than doing good to my body.
 
Nelson Montana said:
There's been a few threads lately regarding the dismay over newbie dosages. Instead of responding to them all, I figured I'd start a new one and give my impression as to why this is so, with a simple history lesson.


(Dates are circa)

1955: The word is out that a certain Dr. John Zeigler invented a pill that helps to grow muscle and increase strength. Every bodybuilder is both curious and cautious. Some world class bodybuilders decide to go against the bodybuilding credo of "health above all" and experiement. John Grimik takes one pill a day for a week and declares "They do nothing!"

1965: The concensous is that 2 dianabol a day is considered safe and effective by members of the medical community if intake does not exceed 8 weeks. The new Weider stars such as Larry Scot, Dave Draper, Don Howorth, Harold Poole and Rick Wayne push the envelope and suddenly a new era of muscularity is born.

1970: Arnold Schwarzenegger is hellbent on success and will do anything to acheive it. He ups the dosages and blows away the competition. Everyone follows suit. Soon, the pro ranks out weigh the competitors of just a few years ago by 30-40 pounds.

1980: Drug use is rampant and the side effects which were once scoffed at, have begun to rear their ugly head. Still, use is monitored by doctors.

1985: Drugs are outlawed and go "underground." Soon afterward, Dan Duchaine releases the groundbreaking USH and a new generation becomes informed about "radical, balls to the walls, hardcore steroid use." It is geared to competitive BB's. Dan suggests up to 500 mgs a week.

1990: Muscle Media 2000 becomes the first magazine to openly discuss drug use in a flpant and cavalier manner, yet with the emphasis on safety. It's an instant success. Other mags follow with similar information.

1995: The internet explodes. Anyone can say anything and every kid with a computer is an expert. Muscle Media changes it's format and the other mags follow. There is no more "mainstream" drug info but there's a endless supply of drug data for free on the net.

2000: Rumors of pro bodybuilding dosages get more and more exagerated. Suddenly a gram is considered the "norm". AFter all, no one's dying from it, right? Before long, everybody with a gym membership scores a source and sees how easy it is to grow. If a gram works well, 1500 a week will work better. And so it goes.

2001: Newbies come to the boards and see the dosage recomendations. They hear a gram a week is fine. They do their first cycle.

2003: After three years of drug use, the same guy weighs 180 pounds at 14% bf, never heard of hack squat, is up to 2 grams a week, and wants to know why he isn't growing. He goes to a BB forum and says he's thinking of giving it up. The advice is usually to take more gear and more anciliaries.

2005: ?

2003: 14 000 people die of acetaminophen(Tylenol) and
paracetamol over-doses.

How many die from AAS?

I'd wager less than 10 and b/c they abused 17-aa's, and were using rec. drugs and drinking.

Would you rather see a newbie go drinking and get plastered with his buddies 4-5 times/week, or come to the boards and learn about AAS....and how to build a better body...and in the process learn just how destructive alcohol and rec. drugs really are?

I certainly would.

Fonz
 
C3bodybuilding said:
Nelson excellent post, and it's all true.

I see too many people on here taking outrageous dosages, and some aren't even 200lbs! And I'm not talking people who are 5'5-5'8, you see people 5'10-6'2 etc weighing 190 doing crazy cycles. On top of it, you see many of them complaining that the gear is fake. Hell, if they couldn't break 200 natural at that height, and now they can't grow on steroids, then maybe they need to eat, and pick up a barbell.


ps. I don't blame the mod's either. Most of them are ADVANCED users. Look at Quad, he never tells anyone to take high doses. He himself, at a very high level in the sport, doesn't take a fraction of what others take, hell he takes less than some newbies on the board!

Athletes are normally exempt depending on the intensity of their sport.

Pure Bodybuilders do minimal cardio. If QUAD did 2hrs HIT Cardio/day, I assure you he would not look like he does now. Same as all the pros.

I take on average between 600-1000mg/week of gear depending on the season(Alternating AAS). I have experimented in the past with higher doses for short periods of time(2-6 weeks), and found that they didn't agree with me.

For example, Fina makes everybody mega aggressive etc..., while test is the opposite.

For me, 1g test/week made me super irritable and very moody. While fina at 100mg/day was the complete opposite. Obviously, Fina is my AAS of choice.

This discrepancy between how AAS act upon different users makes for discourses like Nelsons and yours.

Its called GENETICS. They play a major role.

Somebody might gain 20lbs on 1 Sust250/week for 10 weeks and have no side effects, while another will gain 2-3lbs, get horrible acne, mood swings, get aggressive w/ friends etc...

YOU have to find the AAS that best suits your particular needs.

For me its Fina, ox, low-dose test(250/week), and masteron.

The rest, I could care less.

But then again, I've tried them all...so I have had time to gauge what works or doesn't work for me.

Fonz
 
But Fonz, you are an Athlete. For all the cardio you do with soccer, you have impressive muscularity, and then some.

I'm talking about guys looking to get big. They are 5'10-6'4 range and maybe 170lbs. They come on asking about a gram a week, thats insane.
 
I think that people too often overlook what really makes you grow: Food! IF you want to get big, it's not the gear you use, it's the food , and how much of if, you eat.... Newbies need to look beyond letting gear do all the work, which it wont, and start geting diet and training in order and then look at doing a simple 500mg/week test + 30mg/dbol week cycle, the dbol isn't even necessary..

you put two newbies on that cycle, let one eat 3 meals a day, normal people meals - he'll maybe get 1500 calories (if he's lucky)... then take the other guy, get all his diet calculations going, map out a training regimine and let them both work for the duration of their cycles (8-10 weeks, or whatever) and then you'll have the guy who did his stuff right coming out 25-35 pounds heavier (yes, including fat gain, water, etc...) but he's still made better gains..

YUM
 
tinymm said:
hey galaxy, is that you in that pic of your post.i forgot what its called ???
-matt

Its me in my avatar. Ive been lifting since '93. Juicing since '94. Only the past 3 yrs Ive hit it pretty hard. Im genetically blessed you could say. Dont put on fat and Im always "cut". I behind the neck pressed 315lbs for a triple once taking just one amp of Durateston every 5 days.Of course take more now, but I definately worked up to it. Remember when I first hit a g of test and my face just seemed to swell. Now I dont notice a thing and the look i have achieved,just seems to belong. Looking to do show end of Sept. Its been a long road though. Cant miss workouts and always having to eat. its definately a lifestyle. One I enjoy though.THIS IS MY DISCLAIMER
 
DeepZenPill said:
The main problem is that some people will only want to listen to guys who are huge.

I disagree, when i go to my school weight room i dont talk to anyone, i just workout.

I get my aas knowledge/ideas from different boards. No matter who says what, people will get their own opinions. I may agree with you on one thread, but disagree with you on another.

As far as who newbies listen to i dont care about how big anyone is or how many posts they have, i dont even look at the pics of members boards. its not that hard to see who knows what they are talking about from reading the boards. if you come on and say "you will get teh same results at 500mg, simple anything else is a waste" do you think a newbie is going to decide to do 500mg because of that?

but if someone comes on and explains what is wrong with such dosages (in a scientific way, like i said its not too hard to tell who is smart and who isn't) then people will listen.

for exapmle, swale on CEM is a doctor, he made a post about how 1000iu of hcg per week is optimal IN HIS OPINION, and anything else is not only not needed but dangerous. he made a long thread about this, explained in detail his thinking. he never claimed to know it all but it was obvious from reading his post he knew what he was talking about and he backed up his advice. i read that thread and plan on following his advice of using a low dosage of hcg, unlike some.

but then if i pots a thread about taking 1g a week of test and people just flat out say "you will never keep you gains" "you will get more sides, and more water and its not healthy" without explaining then i really dont see the genius in their post. i just think to myself "no shit, of course i will get more sides at double the dose."

like i said, its easy for newbies to tell who really has studied AAS, and who is juts spreading myths they hear on the boards like "anything over a gram is a waste."
 
C3bodybuilding said:
Willy, thats like seeing a ghost! Where are you these days? Another board?

hey bro,
Nah no other board - Just been REAL busy, been out of the game for a long time now (in terms of juicing) and I had to stop lifting for a period of time because of a couple of injuries and just WAY too much school shit going on, but now I'm getting back into it all and I've been lifting steady for a few months now trying to regain all my strength and stuff - so I'll probably be around more :)

YUM
 
http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=249329

wanted to put up this thread on here, so you guys could tell me your opinions, I think the guys that answered my thread did a great job of informing me of what I need to do to get like a monster.

Ive been tracking my meals, getting good rest, and working out like someone is coming after me and my family.

as for what I intend to do for my first cycle is sust 250.
500mg a week for 10 weeks

clomid week 13, 300mgday 1 100mg for 10 days and 50mg 10 days after that.

Probably just going to keep it that way, if I decide to do another cycle sometime next year, give my body good rest and see how I react from it.

Basically my question is, for sust250....is 500mg good or already overdoing it? should I try just 250 for 10 weeks??
 
Good, honest post. Excellant gains can be made with doses far less than a gram a week. As Kronk said strict attention must be paid to diet, rest, and training. I've seem many young guys turn a promsing physique into a boil infested bloated mass.:)
 
DRRman said:
perfect example...JimmyJonesJunior

he told everyone how safe insulin was and that only an idiot could go into hypo, next day he's asking how to numb the skin because he's afraid of needles...fuckers like this should be banned

Insulin is noting to fuck with for sure. I am damn good at this and 4 hours after I took Humilin R last night (should have been about done) I crashed a bit. I was fine but I know the signs. I never recomend Insulin use to others. (or one gram cycles to newbies!)

Quad
 
The problem, as already stated, is that newbies want to take the same as the monsters. They think thats how they got there. But it isnt. Its just a consequence.

My argument for taking over 1g test a week is that for some of us that's what is needed to make the required gains. This is where the newbie fucks up. They read a post by a 'monster' suggesting high doses and think it applies to everybody.

My stance on AS has always been high dose short duration, but its all relative to experience, knowledge and size! For some, myself included, 500mg test will not put a pound on their frame. Therefore doses need to be increased. A 250lbs experienced bodybuilder needs alot more gear, aswell as better training and diet, than a 150lbs newbie to put 10lbs of muscle on. When this is taken to extremes, such as the pros, they take over 5g a week, to gain what? a couple of pounds a year. But you cant say this is wrong, because its what they need to do to remain competitive and make small gains.

Bottom line: newbies will grow on very small amounts of gear. Save the big dose for when you need it, i.e when your a monster.
Its not the dose that makes the monster.

Bro
 
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