Who here has actually juiced and then gone back to prohormones?

[THeMaCHinE]

Alright, like a lot of guys, I was BURNED by the first crop of PHs to hit the market way back when. I know a lot of guys are claiming good results with some of the newer PHs to hit the market today -- specifically 1-Test and more interesting to me, the boldenone precursor.

With 1-test type products, it seems the legal purpose is defeated because you presumably should run liquidex or nolva for estrogen for maximum efficiency and to retain gains when coming off.

The boldenone product sounds pretty interesting, but I'm having an extremely hard time believing that the oral is going to give you enough of a concentration to match 800 mgs/wk of EQ shot IM.

If these products even offered oxandrolone or stanzolol-like results, I'd probably give them a try. I want to hear specifically from guys that have juiced and then gone back to PHs about their experience. I want to know if they ran any anti-estrogen drugs and how post-"cycle" was. I'm most interested in the boldenone precursor because you could (presumably) run without an anti-e throughout...(would you need nolva/clomid post-cycle though?)

How would an 8-week cycle of this stuff be?

Juicers please respond. Thanks.

 

[THeMaCHinE]

Anybody?

 

[Mysterio]

I'm wondering too.

 

[Fortes]

Machine -

I hit 400mg/day of 1-AD for 4 weeks stacked with 100mg/day of 4-AD, 4 doses per day, 2.5 hours apart.

I started at 240 lbs., and I ended up at about 255.

My bench went from 315X1 to 315X5

Squat from 405X1 to 405X4

My neck, forearms and arms all grew around an inch

I didn't taper off and I CRASHED HARD post cycle. Stretch marks started to GROW all over my hips like crazy from estrogen rebound, and I lost much of the strength in my Bench press (due to a crappy diet and a strain of the serratus anterior on my left side).

My squat is still pushin' skyward. Hit 405 for 4X3 on monday; feels like 1X5 would have been realistic.

Also, my pullups went from 8 to 12 semi-supinated, and I can still get 12, though my bodyweight is down. However, I haven't been training pullups as hard as I did while on.

Moral of the story:

1) Having "help" is no reason to let your diet go to crap.
2) TAPER OFF!, or use ARIMIDEX.
3) 1-AD is MUCH BETTER than 4-AD. When stacked, they come close to the real deal.

 

[THeMaCHinE]

Thanks for taking your time to type out your experience. Have you cycled with AS before? If so, how would you compare the experience?

As I suspected with the 1 AD product, one is going to crash/lose their gains without some sort of estrogen therapy.

I'm specifically interested in 1,4-Androstadiene-3,17-dione (1,4-ADD), the boldenone precursor... but I suspect one is going to need some sort of estogen therapy post cycle for that one as well? Anybody have comments?

Also looking at 5-alpha Androstanediol, but it would have the same problems as 1AD...

I guess stacking the pnp liquidex might be an option...

 

[THeMaCHinE]

And it seems you'd still want nolva or clomid post cycle... which leads me to... why bother with prohormones if you have to buy an illegal (clomid, nolva)/grey market (liquidex) anti-e anyway? Most of the guys you are going to get anti-e drugs from from sell "legit" AS for about the same price as PHs. Chrysin and tribulus aren't going to cut it...

Although maybe there's some potential for converting the powder into an injectable with a kit... But the end product would have no ester, so you'd have to shoot it a minimum of 1x/day... not a fan of (that) frequent (of) injections...

 

[ISN_Man]

THeMaCHinE, I'm currently running a cycle of 1-Test and 1,4-ADD for 8 weeks heavy dose, with a 2 week taper.
1-Test @ 200mg ED / 1,4-ADD @ 400mg ED
I'm only a 1.5 weeks so far, so I can't comment on it's effectiveness as of yet, but I am noticing increased muscle hardness and I'm just as vascular as I've always been. And yes, I think I'm going to run Clomid at the end, just to be safe than sorry. I don't want to risk just using Maca or Trib and end up losing my gains.
So yeah, it is kind of odd why I'll use legal stuff for a cycle and illegal stuff post cycle, but I think the main reason is that the legal stuff is pretty potent now and I can get it easily. The Clomid is easy for me to get too, so that doesn't present a problem either.
So, in the future, I'm sure I'll try using AAS, probably the more mild ones, but for now, the legal stuff I've used has worked really well for me. I've had no complaints. Check this forum every Saturday THeMaCHine because I have a thread that I'm updating weekly with my results, so that way you have some feedback to go on.

 

[Fortes]

Machine -

I have yet to use any schedule III substances, but if you look at the gains via Epley equation in terms of percentage/poundage, you'll find that:

1. My bench strength increased by 14% (315 to 360)

2. My squat strength increased by 11% (405 to 450)

This is over the period of one month. I have been lifting consistently for about 3-4 years, so gains aren't super hard to come by, but 10-15% in ONE MONTH!

Please! I didn't get those kind of gains when I first started out. I'm lucky if, when peaking ergogen free, I hit an 8% increase in strength (past an old PR) in twice that time (2 months). So a 1-AD/4-AD stack, even on the crappy diet I was on, probably accelerated my normal muscle/strength gain by about 3X.

I'm pretty sure that 10 of the 15 lbs. I gained while on was lean mass, too - I really didn't get noticeably fatter.

Patrick Arnold says that 1-AD/1-Test deliver results qualitatively similar to Trenbolone, which makes sense because both drugs offer:

1) No aromatization
2) little water retention
3) Distinct androgenicity
4) Vastly increased protein synthesis
5) Distinct CNS stimulatory effects
6) Lazy/Tired/Pissed off feelings.

 

[THeMaCHinE]

THeMaCHinE, I'm currently running a cycle of 1-Test and 1,4-ADD for 8 weeks heavy dose, with a 2 week taper.
1-Test @ 200mg ED / 1,4-ADD @ 400mg ED
I'm only a 1.5 weeks so far, so I can't comment on it's effectiveness as of yet, but I am noticing increased muscle hardness and I'm just as vascular as I've always been. And yes, I think I'm going to run Clomid at the end, just to be safe than sorry. I don't want to risk just using Maca or Trib and end up losing my gains.
So yeah, it is kind of odd why I'll use legal stuff for a cycle and illegal stuff post cycle, but I think the main reason is that the legal stuff is pretty potent now and I can get it easily. The Clomid is easy for me to get too, so that doesn't present a problem either.
So, in the future, I'm sure I'll try using AAS, probably the more mild ones, but for now, the legal stuff I've used has worked really well for me. I've had no complaints. Check this forum every Saturday THeMaCHine because I have a thread that I'm updating weekly with my results, so that way you have some feedback to go on.

Thanks for your comments -- and for noting the need for clomid/nolva therapy at the end.

I'll keep an eye out for your thread.

 

[THeMaCHinE]

Machine -

I have yet to use any schedule III substances, but if you look at the gains via Epley equation in terms of percentage/poundage, you'll find that:

1. My bench strength increased by 14% (315 to 360)

2. My squat strength increased by 11% (405 to 450)

This is over the period of one month. I have been lifting consistently for about 3-4 years, so gains aren't super hard to come by, but 10-15% in ONE MONTH!

Please! I didn't get those kind of gains when I first started out. I'm lucky if, when peaking ergogen free, I hit an 8% increase in strength (past an old PR) in twice that time (2 months). So a 1-AD/4-AD stack, even on the crappy diet I was on, probably accelerated my normal muscle/strength gain by about 3X.

I'm pretty sure that 10 of the 15 lbs. I gained while on was lean mass, too - I really didn't get noticeably fatter.

Patrick Arnold says that 1-AD/1-Test deliver results qualitatively similar to Trenbolone, which makes sense because both drugs offer:

1) No aromatization
2) little water retention
3) Distinct androgenicity
4) Vastly increased protein synthesis
5) Distinct CNS stimulatory effects
6) Lazy/Tired/Pissed off feelings.

The numbers on this post look good, they're different than what you first posted (unless I just misread). I do believe you that they work. I'm not doubting you on that.

I'm just wondering if it's worth it to subject your body to say a total dose of 3500 mgs/wk of PH and get (probably) less gains than you would off of say 800 mgs/wk of EQ, or in your case, 400 mgs (or less) of test... You said in your initial post that you crashed hard, so it is evident that the same anti-e protocols are necessary for PH as AS (at least in the product you took). Yes, you could taper, that's what they did in the old days before clomid therapy -- but that's still not ideal. I just wonder if it's more dangerous to ingest 3500 mgs/wk of PH vs. 300-800 mgs/wk of AS... And also, like previously stated, if you're going to go black market on the anti-e drugs, why not just snag some AS while you're there too?

This said, I'm still pretty damn interested in the 1,4-Androstadiene-3,17-dione (1,4-ADD). I guess I could resign myself to picking up some nolva for post-cycle... I wish you could use liquidex post-cycle -- then it would be nearly legal...

Would 500 mgs/day over 3-4 doses be a good dose of 1,4-ADD? 6', 215 lbs., +/- 10% bf...