Which Is A Tougher Soldier? A Marine Recon, Seal, Or Ranger?

[distanced]

DF is out by default as it is a given. Now I realize that we all have different skills, but this is overall

Recon hands down
hoorah USMC

 

[2Thick]

French Foreign Legion Paratrooper beats all of them.

 

[DP38]

I would personally go with Marine Recon, because I never Heard of them, in this line of work it's a good thing. I would include British SBS to.

 

[The Republican]

Virginia Boys. Higher than Delta Force. Many in the military dont even know about them

 

[tuc biscuit]

This should be interesting, but you forgot the British SAS.

 

[vinylgroover]

VC

 

[DP38]

Your forgetting the best of them tough... The Canadian JTF 2...

 

[distanced]

The British panty washers didn't come close to making it on my poll

 

[DP38]

The British panty washers didn't come close to making it on my poll

Who are you talking about?

 

[Spartacus]

i think it still comes down to the individual...can't really tell how anyone will react until they are in deep shit for the first time..btw,what force were those two snipers from the action in Somalia who received the Congressional medals of honor posthumously?

 

[longarms]

Unless you've been there & done that, it's all speculation based on hollywood & documentaries. I know a lot of rangers & spec ops guys, & they are all basically bad dudes. The bulk of the rangers are 18-22 year old kids. Delta guys are a whole 'nuther line of work. I don't know enough about the other services to make a call, & I've been around 23+ years.
We're working with the UK guys here now, all nice guys & gals.
My hat's off to all of them.

(respectfully)
Sergeant Major
Expert Infantry
Military Police
Drill Sergeant

(and I can't hold a candle to any of these spec ops guys)

 

[ZKaudio]

peace corps.

 

[The Republican]

i think it still comes down to the individual...can't really tell how anyone will react until they are in deep shit for the first time..btw,what force were those two snipers from the action in Somalia who received the Congressional medals of honor posthumously?

Shugard and Gordon were both Deltas.

 

[The Republican]

Unless you've been there & done that, it's all speculation based on hollywood & documentaries. I know a lot of rangers & spec ops guys, & they are all basically bad dudes. The bulk of the rangers are 18-22 year old kids. Delta guys are a whole 'nuther line of work. I don't know enough about the other services to make a call, & I've been around 23+ years.
We're working with the UK guys here now, all nice guys & gals.
My hat's off to all of them.

(respectfully)
Sergeant Major
Expert Infantry
Military Police
Drill Sergeant

(and I can't hold a candle to any of these spec ops guys)

Take care over there man. Ive spent more time in that area of the world then I would have liked. Hooah!

 

[longarms]

Thanks, it doesn't take long for it to be more than you like!

BTW, the Medal of Honor is no longer referred to as the "congressional" medal of honor. Most folks don't know that, it's just what they've always heard.

There are some guys in my Bn that were in somalia when that went down, deep caca there, buddy.

 

[Lao Tzu]

Virginia Boys. Higher than Delta Force. Many in the military dont even know about them

Who are they. I watched part of a documentary about an air force special ops team once. Their normal training was supposedly almost as bad as SEAL hell week. But i can't remember the name.

 

[The Republican]

Who are they. I watched part of a documentary about an air force special ops team once. Their normal training was supposedly almost as bad as SEAL hell week. But i can't remember the name.

Well, I can say there arent a whole lot of them, and like I said most people even in the military dont know them. They were in Iraq working up north with the Kurds a year before we recently went in, and a few of them were actually killed by our own SF guys, obviously they were deeply undercover.

They are James Bond type men, Im talking about wristwatches that explode exactly 30 minutes after the soldier wearing it dies (on the wrist, so it can feel a pulse). Kinda discourages you from stealing a dead soldiers watch.

I have never tried searching for info on them online but maybe you can find some. If not let me know.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

They each have a slightly diff.purpose in specop community. You cannot say who is tougher, every individual who made it that far is mentally and physically tough. Seals and Rangers work hand in hand often times conducting raids and airfield seizures. Don't know much about Force Recon.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Plus, those are warriors, not soldiers!

 

[Burning_Inside]

UMM HELLO PEOPLE < WE FORGETTING ANOTHER GROUP MAYBE?

 

[Spartacus]

Thanks, it doesn't take long for it to be more than you like!

BTW, the Medal of Honor is no longer referred to as the "congressional" medal of honor. Most folks don't know that, it's just what they've always heard.

There are some guys in my Bn that were in somalia when that went down, deep caca there, buddy.

...thanks for the info,I was going to just type "medal of honor",but then thought I was shortchanging the award by abridging it,so I put it as i did..shows what I know eh?..btw,I've seen blackhawk down about 3 times on DVD,but I always get loaded while watching my war movies(that way I can watch em multiple times and its always fresh)and i can't recall if these 2 delta guy's actions were depicted accurately..any info from those in the know?...I do know that much of "we were soldiers" was hollywood..but hell what those two did didn't reguire any hollywood gloss

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

I have trained with all of them. They're all tough.

Physically, the toughest are Force Recon Marines.

I was an Army Ranger.

 

[DP38]

I think we can say that everybody who makes the special forces, in any country, is tough.

 

[distanced]

hoorah Marine Corp. uh uh Kill

 

[Lao Tzu]

Well, I can say there arent a whole lot of them, and like I said most people even in the military dont know them. They were in Iraq working up north with the Kurds a year before we recently went in, and a few of them were actually killed by our own SF guys, obviously they were deeply undercover.

They are James Bond type men, Im talking about wristwatches that explode exactly 30 minutes after the soldier wearing it dies (on the wrist, so it can feel a pulse). Kinda discourages you from stealing a dead soldiers watch.

I have never tried searching for info on them online but maybe you can find some. If not let me know.

i cant find any info on the virginia boys

Were they the ones who tapped the phone lines and lived in Iraq for a year or so or was that Delta force?

 

[The Republican]

i cant find any info on the virginia boys

Were they the ones who tapped the phone lines and lived in Iraq for a year or so or was that Delta force?

I know that they (a good number of them) were in Iraq long before the war started, I believe right after 9/11 they were "deployed" to the Kurdish area. It is amazing, these guys go through a complete transformation. One of the reasons our SF guys nailed a few of them was because they looked like Iraqis.

I am not certain about the specific scenario your mentioned, but Delta is usually used for anti-terrorism, so that phone deal seems for fit for the Green Berets if I had to chose one of them.

 

[Godzila]

I am active duty Marine right now, so I am going to go with Force recon. But I believe they all have there place, like SeALs, are primarily hostage rescue and anti-terrosim, while regular battlion Recon Marines are strictly intel-gathering...I don't know much about Delta or the Rangers. I know the Marine Corps is starting up a new Spec-ops unit, that is supposed to combine the best of all branches....it is currently up and running from what I understand and has approx 80 members.

..as far as the "exploding wrist-watch" story can you validate that? All spec-ops have a motto of never leaving anyone behind, so if a comrade is shot and dies while someone is trying to rescue his body, then they would kill 2 men. and it is not realistic to say "they are trained to take the watch off the person and discard before he dies" in a situation like that the last thing a man would think is "wait, i have bullets whizzing past my balls, but let me get homeboys watch off first" This would be assumed in the design phase of this "watch' if it ever did exist in the first place. Sorry, this just sounded like some Hollywood shit to me..

 

[The Republican]

I am active duty Marine right now, so I am going to go with Force recon. But I believe they all have there place, like SeALs, are primarily hostage rescue and anti-terrosim, while regular battlion Recon Marines are strictly intel-gathering...I don't know much about Delta or the Rangers. I know the Marine Corps is starting up a new Spec-ops unit, that is supposed to combine the best of all branches....it is currently up and running from what I understand and has approx 80 members.

..as far as the "exploding wrist-watch" story can you validate that? All spec-ops have a motto of never leaving anyone behind, so if a comrade is shot and dies while someone is trying to rescue his body, then they would kill 2 men. and it is not realistic to say "they are trained to take the watch off the person and discard before he dies" in a situation like that the last thing a man would think is "wait, i have bullets whizzing past my balls, but let me get homeboys watch off first" This would be assumed in the design phase of this "watch' if it ever did exist in the first place. Sorry, this just sounded like some Hollywood shit to me..

I apologize that I have no documented proof of this, but I did work Army counterintelligence for more than 10 years. This is simply what one of the Virginia Boys told me.

Keep in mind there are not that many of them, and their purpose is not to be involved in "battles" as we know them. From what I understand they work in very small teams.

And if the wristwatch seems too "Hollywood," then you certainly wont believe some of the other stuff some of these guys have done/used.

 

[Godzila]

I apologize that I have no documented proof of this, but I did work Army counterintelligence for more than 10 years. This is simply what one of the Virginia Boys told me.

Keep in mind there are not that many of them, and their purpose is not to be involved in "battles" as we know them. From what I understand they work in very small teams.

And if the wristwatch seems too "Hollywood," then you certainly wont believe some of the other stuff some of these guys have done/used.

well that makes more sense then. If they are NSA/CIA/Spook types then they don't give a shit about bringing back dead bodies and would more than likely prefer to destroy them, for lack of identity....do you remember any other things they mentioned....I have never heard of "Virginia boys" do you know what agency or branch of service they worked for...stuff like that intrigues me. i wish i would have gotten into that type of thing when I started out. I know I would have at least made it to Recon, but that is actually fairly easy.

 

[The Republican]

well that makes more sense then. If they are NSA/CIA/Spook types then they don't give a shit about bringing back dead bodies and would more than likely prefer to destroy them, for lack of identity....do you remember any other things they mentioned....I have never heard of "Virginia boys" do you know what agency or branch of service they worked for...stuff like that intrigues me. i wish i would have gotten into that type of thing when I started out. I know I would have at least made it to Recon, but that is actually fairly easy.

Well, what I can tell you is that they recruit from all different branches of the armed services. Obviously, they pick the cream of the crop from the various special ops teams.

We didnt get to talking about training, but I DO know that for Delta they always, and I mean always, reject you the first 2 times. It is basically like having to go through SEAL training at least 3 times, so I cant even begin to imagine what the training regimen is like for the Virginia Boys. Im retired now so I am probably going to have to die not knowing much more. Of course, I cant really talk to you about certain subjects we talked about, e.g. what they have been involved in in the past.

 

[The Republican]

Who are they under ?No Such Agency or Christians In Actions ?

Sorry.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Who are they under ?No Such Agency or Christians In Actions ?

 

[The Republican]

I HATE that line, my buddy was Force Recon and always gave me that shit, he knew it pissed me off, but I am glad he never gave in though....oh well, i guess we will never know...

It was either that or the annoyingly cliche "I am not at liberty to say."

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Sorry.

 

[Godzila]

Of course, I cant really talk to you about certain subjects we talked about, e.g. what they have been involved in in the past.

I HATE that line, my buddy was Force Recon and always gave me that shit, he knew it pissed me off, but I am glad he never gave in though....oh well, i guess we will never know...

 

[MR.?]

Air Force

Para-rescue!


They have the most demanding physical standards and recieve the most extensive training. They have the highest attrition rate during their indoctrination phase. They attend all special ops schools in addition to their own advanced courses.

When special ops needs rescue they send these guys in.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Air Force

Para-rescue!


They have the most demanding physical standards and recieve the most extensive training. They have the highest attrition rate during their indoctrination phase. They attend all special ops schools in addition to their own advanced courses.

When special ops needs rescue they send these guys in.

Well, no shit ?! Really ?

 

[MR.?]

Well, no shit ?! Really ?

yep....no shit

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Already visualizing that 100mph tape over your mouth.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Just messing with you man, they deserve a lot of credit, along with CCT's.

 

[MR.?]

Just messing with you man, they deserve a lot of credit, along with CCT's.

I know, just playing along ;-)

 

[XBiker]

If you want some great info on the various special forces of the US Military, just check here.

http://www.azstarnet.com/attack/specialforces.html

 

[Lao Tzu]

Air Force

Para-rescue!


They have the most demanding physical standards and recieve the most extensive training. They have the highest attrition rate during their indoctrination phase. They attend all special ops schools in addition to their own advanced courses.

When special ops needs rescue they send these guys in.

i think that was the special ops group i saw a documentary about.

 

[Kalashnikov]

Air Force

Para-rescue!


They have the most demanding physical standards and recieve the most extensive training. They have the highest attrition rate during their indoctrination phase. They attend all special ops schools in addition to their own advanced courses.

When special ops needs rescue they send these guys in.

Air Force PJ's surely have an intense training regimen, especially water training, drown-proofing, etc, however, from what I have read (in the book Blackhawk Down) the rest of the special ops community saw the PJ route as the "shortcut" the spec. ops. "field". Again, this is just something I read, not speaking from personal experience. And I have heard of their amazing ability to rescue people in the most dangerous situations.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Air Force PJ's surely have an intense training regimen, especially water training, drown-proofing, etc, however, from what I have read (in the book Blackhawk Down) the rest of the special ops community saw the PJ route as the "shortcut" the spec. ops. "field". Again, this is just something I read, not speaking from personal experience. And I have heard of their amazing ability to rescue people in the most dangerous situations.

You want to talk resuces? Coast guard swimmers pull people out of freezing waters during hurricanes...those dudes are bad as fuck.

I trained with some PJ's. cool guys. the combat controllers were cool too.

 

[lilperronis]

what about the GI Joes?those dudes are pimps

 

[Kalashnikov]

You want to talk resuces? Coast guard swimmers pull people out of freezing waters during hurricanes...those dudes are bad as fuck.

I trained with some PJ's. cool guys. the combat controllers were cool too.

Cool shit. What sort of training did you get to do with them?

 

[MR.?]

I recognize that all elements involved in the special ops field work extremely hard and sacrifice so much in our defense. They all serve a unique purpose and mission. Wether they be PJ/SEAL/Delta ect., they all deserve our respect and appreciation.

 

[Testosterone boy]

Dammit to hell, I wish I would not have run out of money. Never got to do so many things I wanted to:

Cave diving

Snowmobile the Colorado continental divide.......guaranteed pure suicide

Wreck dive at 400 feet

Shoot a charging rhino while rolling on the ground

Nightime ice dive

Climb Everest solo



OK..........daydream over. My vote is solo recon. Just have more respect for the solo folks.


Coast Guard swimmers have no fear and do amazing stuff but.........hurricanes don't normally coincide with freezing waters. Ocean storms............one has to respect the ocean. It can swallow a 1000' ship without a hiccup.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Dammit to hell, I wish I would not have run out of money. Never got to do so many things I wanted to:

Cave diving

Snowmobile the Colorado continental divide.......guaranteed pure suicide

Wreck dive at 400 feet

Shoot a charging rhino while rolling on the ground

Nightime ice dive

Climb Everest solo



OK..........daydream over. My vote is solo recon. Just have more respect for the solo folks.


Coast Guard swimmers have no fear and do amazing stuff but.........hurricanes don't normally coincide with freezing waters. Ocean storms............one has to respect the ocean. It can swallow a 1000' ship without a hiccup.

true on that last point about hurricnaes. I guess I was thinking more of the Nor-easters that occur in New england - Perfect Storm type shit.

 

[manny78]

I'd say the British SAS, closely followed by the FFL. As for US units, those named in this thread all seem good to me.

JTF-2 ? Yes and no. They have little war experience and mostly look like a bunch of crying babies.

 

[MarthaStewart]

Salvation Army, by far

 

[the nature boy]

Raspberry Berets.

 

[Cuthbert]

theres some australian special forces that are pretty harsh

 

[JarHed]

 

[from zero]

I remember talking about this in high school with a history teacher. I believe he said British SAS and the FFL. In so many words, those fuckers are no joke.

 

[bds20002002]

The Girl Scouts.

 

[Y_lifter]

All are great, but I give bigger props to Corpsman/Medics anyday..

My Dad told me stories of basically being unarmed in firefights in the open field,
and having to stuff entrails back into Spec Ops dudes.
Starting an IV (not easy to do in a hospital bed) in a mud trench.
Carrying a 250 lbd marine 100 yds on his back then working on him.
Praying with scared duded as they met their makers.
Knowing that every drop or landing would be a hot one because if it wasn't,
why would you need corpsman deployed there ASAP ?

We all see the numbers of people killed in conflicts, but look at
the Injured number.

Everyone of them had a Corpsman/Medic work on them in the field.

 

[Robert Jan]

every nation will tell its people their special forces are toughest./

 

[the nature boy]

whatever the A-Team was. they could kill all those other fuckers.

 

[from zero]

whatever the A-Team was. they could kill all those other fuckers.

Goddamned right.

 

[SV2]

You left the energizer bunny off the list.. I would have voted for him.

 

[Testosterone boy]

Arnee is the man. Imagine a military with a million Arnee's. Hoorah!

 

[DP38]

I'd say the British SAS, closely followed by the FFL. As for US units, those named in this thread all seem good to me.

JTF-2 ? Yes and no. They have little war experience and mostly look like a bunch of crying babies.

What is FFL?

And I was kidding about the JTF-2, I think their more of Marines Unit than a Spec. Op.

Are you in the army manny78? Or you just heard they look like crying babies?

 

[DP38]

http://www.specialoperations.com/default2.html


Thats a link to all the Spec. Ops of the world.

 

[javaguru]

whatever the A-Team was. they could kill all those other fuckers.

I don't think I've ever seen the A-team kill or seriously injure anyone in any episode, must have been court martialled for being conscientious objectors. However, they probably kept firestone in business shooting out all those damn tires with pin point accuracy.

 

[from zero]

lol.

let me give you a brief history of the A-Team.

"In 1972, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. They promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no-one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team."

and if they wanted to kill guys they could have. They killed so many VC in Nam that they figured it would be more challenging to shoot at the feet of the bad guys and barely miss and blow out tires with their silver AK-47's.

haha, "promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade."

 

[javaguru]

BTW, I'll step outside the listed choices and vote for "any infantryman who saw sustained combat in WWII." Especially those poor bastards fighting on the Eastern Front, both German and Soviet. I can't imagine the mental/physical stamina required to endure near constant combat under those conditions for years at time.

 

[the nature boy]

I don't think I've ever seen the A-team kill or seriously injure anyone in any episode, must have been court martialled for being conscientious objectors. However, they probably kept firestone in business shooting out all those damn tires with pin point accuracy.

lol.

let me give you a brief history of the A-Team.

"In 1972, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. They promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no-one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team."

and if they wanted to kill guys they could have. They killed so many VC in Nam that they figured it would be more challenging to shoot at the feet of the bad guys and barely miss and blow out tires with their silver AK-47's.

 

[javaguru]

and if they wanted to kill guys they could have. They killed so many VC in Nam that they figured it would be more challenging to shoot at the feet of the bad guys and barely miss and blow out tires with their silver AK-47's.

You're forgetting about shooting the tire at the exact angle necessary to cause the vehicle to flip over and always explode only seconds after the occupants have scurried to a safe distance.
Those are some mad skills.....

 

[JarHed]

Yeah...I have to admit, these guys look "Bad Ass"

 

[the nature boy]

BTW, I'll step outside the listed choices and vote for "any infantryman who saw sustained combat in WWII." Especially those poor bastards fighting on the Eastern Front, both German and Soviet. I can't imagine the mental/physical stamina required to endure near constant combat under those conditions for years at time.

yeah but a lot of those poor buggers died. the survival rate wasn't too pretty if I imagine.

 

[javaguru]

Roughly 90% of the men aged 18-25 in the Red Army at the start of the war didn't survive to see the end. However, those 10% that did must have been some tough bastards, the ultimate weed-out program.

 

[the nature boy]

However, those 10% that did must have been some tough bastards, the ultimate weed-out program.

tough. or lucky.

 

[javaguru]

tough. or lucky.

I don't know a combat veteran that doesn't consider himself lucky for surviving. It's been estimated that 60% of the casualties caused during WWII were caused by artillery, with artillery there isn't a lot you can do other than learn to recognize the "close" ones, take cover, and hope for the best. So, IMO luck is certainly part of the equation. However, being able to survive nearly four years of almost constant combat would take a little bit more than just luck IMO. Especially considering how harsh the conditions were on the front, especially during winter.

Regardless, the mental "toughness" required for such a feat would be staggering. In 1944 army psychiatrists concluded that combat fatigue begins to set in after four weeks of constant action, by the late stages a soldier becomes so unable to function he is not only a danger to himself but also his unit. The human body didn't evolve having the fight or flight instinct triggered 24/7 for weeks, months and years. Eventually, the person jsut loses all hope and resigns themself to their fate.

 

[Testosterone boy]

tough. or lucky.

Maybe some of them hid instead of fighting. Or hung around a general, they stay at a safe distance.

 

[javaguru]

Many German soldiers ended up serving in the Foreign legion after the war and fighting in Indochina(Vietnam) in exchange for being released from internment. There was a lot of German being spoken in the foreign legion in 1946.

 

[Spartacus]

panzer jaeger unit DORAII

It was in the last weeks of the War, in April 1945, that one small detachment, Commando Unit DORA II of the SS 500th Bewahrungs (Punishment) Battalion, fought its last and most memorable battle.

To overcome the shortage of trained infantrymen and of adequate weapons in the months and weeks of Germany's military decline more and more use was made of small groups of dedicated hard and skillful men who were prepared to undertake operations of the most hopeless sort to help save their native country. The name of one of these men, Otto Skorzeny, was, to his contemporaries in the German Army, synonymous with cool bravery and daring. This account, however, is not Skorzeny's but that of an SS company which had formerly been part of his commando battalion. This had been split up to form a closely woven network of small groups charged with the task of blocking the advance by the Red Army, as it made that great thrust towards Berlin which STAVKA intended would end the war in Europe. Separated from the parent SS commando, the next step had been the conversion of this assault company into a para-commando and then into an anti-tank company. These were not, however, conventional gunners with conventional anti-tank guns, or those Panzerjaeger who fought with self propelled anti-tank gun (Jagdpanzer, Jagdpanther, etc.) who were protected by thick armor and killing their victims within the range in excess of thousands of meters, but a group of bicycle-riding, determined tank hunters, individual destroyers of enemy machines who went out with hollow charges and other close combat weapons to launch themselves at the Soviet vehicles, to clamber onto the moving machines and to plant their explosive charge firmly so that it exploded and destroyed its victim. There were other methods of killing the Red armour of which a favourite one was to rise from the ground, to stand in a wave of tanks, to select a victim and then to smash it with the missile from a single- shot rocket launcher.

The soldiers who, in this particular account, carried out this type of dangerous mission were men of long experience and years of combat on the Eastern Front. They were led by Untersturmfuhrer Porsch. Born in 1924, he had joined the Waffen SS in 1941 and before he was nineteen years of age was a Company Commander who had been awarded the Iron Cross First Class. The actions which are here recounted won for him the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross to add to the other visible emblems of his bravery. On his upper left breast glittered the assault badge in gold and on his right breast pocket was the German cross in gold. Then there was the golden badge for close combat, a mention in the Army's book of honour and no fewer than four tank destruction badges.

In the fighting which marked the last days of April 1945 in Brandenburg the heights of Seelow were lost to the Germans, and the Russian forces, following the classic Blitzkrieg tactics, had probed for and found a gap through which their tanks had driven and had by-passed the few remaining pockets of German resistance in and around the town of Seelow. One of those pockets was that which held the DORA II and soon it had become clear from the volume of Russian fire as well as from its direction that the SS unit was outflanked and in a salient. The Soviet spearheads were now far to the west and to destroy this remaining opposition in Seelow part of an armoured regiment of JS tanks and T 34s was sent in.

A Red tank squadron charged with the tanks fanned out, and far beyond the range of DORA II's close quarter weapons opened fire upon the SS detachment. The commander and his grenadiers accepted the losses which the Soviet tank gun and machine gun fire inflicted upon them, holding themselves ready for the time when the great machines would approach to within killing distance. Porsch named his men, allotted to them the tank they were to destroy and then the two groups of combatants met in battle. On the one side the human with his explosive charge or rocket launcher, whose only defence was mobility, against, on the other side, an opponent heavily armoured and strongly armed.

One JS tank which rolled towards the small group of men who made up the company headquarters suddenly swung on its tracks, halted and began to burn. A Panzerfaust had torn into its vitals and fire consumed the vehicle so quickly that none of the crew escaped. This first 'kill' was the signal for a general melee as the men within the tanks and the men outside them fought to destroy each other.

 

[Spartacus]

Porsch alone scores 17 kills(man against tank)

A sudden change of direction was made by the Russian commanders aiming to take DORA II in flank but this failed when their machines were caught and destroyed by Skorzeny's group holding position on Porsch's right. Vehicle after vehicle stopped, 'brewed up' or blew up. In Porsch's company area six were on fire and the remainder pulled back to allow waves of Red Army infantry to storm forward, hoping to achieve the victory which the tanks had been unable to gain.

The MG 42s whose rate of fire had been increased to over 2,000rpm came into action, swinging backwards and forwards along the brown-coated files, smashing the cohesion of the attack and destroying it before the assaulting Russian regiment had had time to shake out into tactical formation. The killing was prodigious and the survivors of the crumpled Red battalions pulled back and withdrew out of range of this small group of determined defenders.

For the outflanked German groups in the salient there was only one course of action and the exhausted detachments were pulled back, but not to rest. DORA II was ordered to move on Lebus and there to attack a Soviet tank group which was concentrating around the town. The road forward was choked with retreating troops and columns of refugees who hindered the advance so that it was not until just before dawn that the small SS column of men and machines reached the objective they had arrived too late. The town had fallen and under the relentless pressure of massed Soviet tank assaults DORA II and its flank detachments were pushed further and further back. But there were successes even on that black day. The company scored its 100th kill and Porsch his twelfth and thirteenth victims.

At nightfall the detachment rested in a farm set some 300 metres behind the main German firing line which was held by men of a dozen, mixed sub-units separated from their parent bodies. At some time during the night the front line was driven or taken back and Porsch was awakened to the news that his unit was now almost alone, was unprotected and that the farm courtyard was full of Russians. These were killed and then a cautious reconnaissance showed the village to be empty of all German troops except for a detachment of about eighty assault engineers who joined forces with Porsch's 100-strong company. This mixed group filled the gap and formed a temporary battle line. Later again during the night a group of grenadiers from the Dutch SS Division Nederland came up as reinforcements and with this increase in strength the German commander felt his group strong enough and they struck forward in a counter attack.

The company continued to score victories. The 125th victim was gained and Porsch destroyed his seventeenth. Other attacks by the German group pushed back the Russians in the Neu Zittau area and during one thrust on 20 April Porsch and his men, mounted on bicycles, smashed through the Soviet line held by a whole battalion reached and then captured its headquarters staff of fourteen officers and some women

On 26 April Porsch was informed that he had been awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross and as if to set a seal upon this decoration he destroyed with Panzerfaust and machine pistol fire a pair of Russian anti-tank guns which had sought to halt his company's advance. Later during that day his bicycle-mounted troops, accompanied by a handful of men from the SS Division Frundsberg made a swift assault upon a battery of mortars whose fire was particularly destructive and wiped out most of the Soviet battery. Eight mortars were captured.

The very success of the advance which the SS group had made was its downfall, for then it once again formed a small salient which was under constant and heavy bombardment. Then Soviet troops cut the neck of the salient. By this stroke the German force became a pocket, cut off from the main body and surrounded on all sides by the Soviet enemy. The defiance which it still maintained attracted to it soldiers from every type of German front-line unit and of every rank: men who had been cut off from their own formations. Women and children, old and young entered into this tiny enclave of German-held territory, enduring the bombardments, the aerial assaults, the privations and shortages and often sharing with the soldiers the common end of death. The civilians would endure anything just as long as they could stay with the pocket now trying to fight its way through line after successive line of Soviet defences. Death and wounds continually reduced the number of fighting men. The dead were hastily buried and then the pocket rolled on to meet and overcome in fierce fire fights some new Russian obstacle between it and the main German line.

 

[revexrevex]

Java Guru - let me give you an example, and for record I agree with everything you say

My grandfather was a sniper during World War 2. Whenever I would specifically ask him how many people he had killed, he would start crying. He walked from Ukraine to Poland on foot, for a whole MONTH. Imagine walking and walking, with no good shoes, no clothing, during the harsh winters. He told me how many people died, and the only one left were the most determined, the most physically gifted. When he arrived in Poland, he met a friend with whom he had lived in Ukraine. His friend told my grandfather that the Nazi's invaded a small city in Ukraine where my grandfather's relatives lived. THe Nazi's burried my grandfather's 6 sisters, a brother, and both of his parents ALIVE. Grandfather's friend told him that they were heard screaming for 3 days after, and the people could not dig them up because the Nazi's were standing there and shooting anyone who would come close. Imagine the kind of physical and mental anguish he had to go through? He told me once how he was sitting on a tree, with his rifle, and looking at a piece of glass and shaving. All of sudden a bullet whezed by, hit that glass, and the pieces were engrafted into his leg and his chest. The enemy sniper saw the light shining on the glass, and quickly picked my grandfather out. Death missed him by a few centimeters. My grandfather was very simple man, he only finished 4th grade before he was drafted into army. I think that ignorance had saved him from going crazy, he was too simple minded to analyze the horrors that had happened to his family, and during the war. He had recently died, after his son (my uncle) died of a heart attack. He was a very tough man, physically he had a bigger back at 80 then I did at 18. No amount of training can teach you what this man had to go through during the 4 years of pure hell.

 

[Spartacus]

Pressure built up as the Red Army closed its fist around Porsch's little SS group, reduced now to only forty-eight men. Between Markisch-Buchholz and Topchin the last act was played out when a Soviet infantry battalion invested the group. In such a hopeless situation surrender was the only logical military decision and the officers of army units in Porsch's sector decided to capitulate. The SS commander put the situation very cogently to his men: "We can none of us expect to emerge alive from this situation and to be taken prisoner is the only way out. If any man wishes to surrender along with the army group he is free to do so and I shall not condemn him as a coward." No man of DORA II made a move to join the Army soldiers and the young commander, deeply affected by this display of loyalty went from man to man shaking each warmly by the hand.

The soldiers of the Army unit moved off waving their white flags; the civilians had already been dispersed and now on the stricken field of Topchin only the SS remained. Seven of them fell in the first of a series of attacks which the Red battalion then launched. At the end of the second Soviet assault eighteen of the group had been killed. All day the noise of battle echoed across the open fields of Brandenburg but by last light the Red infantry and artillery had still not subdued the defiant SS.

First light on 28 April opened with a mortar barrage and at 09.00hrs the Soviets, considering that the time had come to administer the coup de grace to DORA II, sent in their battalion, only to have it driven back once again. But no success against the Soviet battalion, no Russians drawing back from the fury of German gunfire could disguise the fact that the end was now very near. One SS man, his legs shattered by bomb blast, bade his comrades goodbye and blew his life away with a hand grenade. A mortar bomb destroyed three more of the little group and, in another shell hole, two more badly-wounded men ended their lives by committing suicide.

The Soviet battalion was re-organised and under a mortar barrage came in again to the assault. A quick check among the SS men showed that only one round of ammunition remained. Its owner shook hands with the survivors of the little group for the last time, raised a pistol to his temple and fired. Although there was no more ammunition left Porsch still chose to attack. Not for nothing had he gained the nickname of 'Old man forwards', and he led his last eleven men into their final assault, to meet oncoming Red infantry. The SS men followed Porsch's upraised Volkov staff as they had done for so many years and then the struggle was hand to hand as the last eleven closed with the Russians. Porsch's staff rose and fell as it smashed the heads of his opponents and he cut a path through the Red Army men. Then he was down. It was all over but there still remained one last defiant gesture. Porsch and those of his group who still remained alive secured from the Soviet commander permission to bury their dead. In a final act of comradeship these were laid, in SS fashion, side by side, their faces to the rising sun and with their weapons at their side. To conclude the little ceremony the final few of DORA II sang the SS anthem, and then, turning, they trudged off into the grey anonymity of a prisoner-of-war camp.

 

[revexrevex]

4Everhung, that article portrays them as heroes, as survivors right? Now fucking compare them to the man and women of the Russian army, who were caught unexpected by heavy armor and superior technologies of the Nazi's, cities that were burned down,millions of people were executed, children, women, old man. ANd yet the Russians picked up whatever weapons they had, and fought valiantly to defeat the greatest evil of all time. That article portrays them as heroes. Heroes of NOTHING!

 

[javaguru]

There was a red army sgt in an anti-tank platoon at the battle of Kursk. They had fired all of their ammo but were unable to halt the german armored advance. He grabbed as many anti-tank mines and grenades as he could carry and proceeded to knock out three german tanks single handed before being killed. His sacrifice halted the german advance.

Also, many modern special forces units can trace their heritage back in history to WWII or earlier. The Rangers go back as far as the American Revolution. Even during WWI the German army had small units of "stormtroopers." They were small units of specially trained and motivated veterans who would stealthily advance across no mans land at night to cut wire and deploy explosives preparing the way for the offensive.

 

[revexrevex]

JavaGuru, thats just a small example of things that happened. My grandfather told me how Russian soldiers would strap grenades to themselves and run into tanks, blowing them up. The illogical acts of heroism that were commited during that time, warranted by desperation of war are truly something great to think about.

 

[revexrevex]

I want to repaste this from 4th page

Java Guru - let me give you an example, and for record I agree with everything you say

My grandfather was a sniper during World War 2. Whenever I would specifically ask him how many people he had killed, he would start crying. He walked from Ukraine to Poland on foot, for a whole MONTH. Imagine walking and walking, with no good shoes, no clothing, during the harsh winters. He told me how many people died, and the only one left were the most determined, the most physically gifted. When he arrived in Poland, he met a friend with whom he had lived in Ukraine. His friend told my grandfather that the Nazi's invaded a small city in Ukraine where my grandfather's relatives lived. THe Nazi's burried my grandfather's 6 sisters, a brother, and both of his parents ALIVE. Grandfather's friend told him that they were heard screaming for 3 days after, and the people could not dig them up because the Nazi's were standing there and shooting anyone who would come close. Imagine the kind of physical and mental anguish he had to go through? He told me once how he was sitting on a tree, with his rifle, and looking at a piece of glass and shaving. All of sudden a bullet whezed by, hit that glass, and the pieces were engrafted into his leg and his chest. The enemy sniper saw the light shining on the glass, and quickly picked my grandfather out. Death missed him by a few centimeters. My grandfather was very simple man, he only finished 4th grade before he was drafted into army. I think that ignorance had saved him from going crazy, he was too simple minded to analyze the horrors that had happened to his family, and during the war. He had recently died, after his son (my uncle) died of a heart attack. He was a very tough man, physically he had a bigger back at 80 then I did at 18. No amount of training can teach you what this man had to go through during the 4 years of pure hell.

 

[FreakMonster]

Virginia Boys. Higher than Delta Force. Many in the military dont even know about them

You sure your not talking about the Vagina Boys? LOL

 

[lilperronis]

The Girl Scouts.

 

[Spartacus]

4Everhung, that article portrays them as heroes, as survivors right? Now fucking compare them to the man and women of the Russian army, who were caught unexpected by heavy armor and superior technologies of the Nazi's, cities that were burned down,millions of people were executed, children, women, old man. ANd yet the Russians picked up whatever weapons they had, and fought valiantly to defeat the greatest evil of all time. That article portrays them as heroes. Heroes of NOTHING!

I have admiration for both combatants on the eastern front.The eastern front was by far the most grueling theater of WWII with both armies displaying tremendous feats of tenacity and valor. You are quite incorrect though about German armor being both heavier and technologically superior to the Russian armor of '41-'42. The Soviets had both the KV-I and KV-II tanks which were behemoths compared to the German MK-IV tank(which at the time was the german 'heavy' tank though it was equiped which a shortbarreled 75MM gun suited for anti-personnel combat and thus its load out was primarily HE rounds with some HEAT rounds for anti-armor combat),in addition the Soviet T-34 was vastly superior to anything the germans fielded for the first 2+ years of combat..it wasn't until '43 when the tide had already turned against germany that they had the Tiger tank and then the Panthers,but by '44 the Soviets had thier own new class of heavy tanks. The germans won in the first 2 years because of superior tactics and elan. You are also mistaken when you label the entire german army as nazis. As a side note my g/f is Russian(from georgia) and I'm quite far form being a Nazi admirer.

 

[Mandinka2]

I have admiration for both combatants on the eastern front.The eastern front was by far the most grueling theater of WWII with both armies displaying tremendous feats of tenacity and valor. You are quite incorrect though about German armor being both heavier and technologically superior to the Russian armor of '41-'42. The Soviets had both the KV-I and KV-II tanks which were behemoths compared to the German MK-IV tank(which at the time was the german 'heavy' tank though it was equiped which a shortbarreled 75MM gun suited for anti-personnel combat and thus its load out was primarily HE rounds with some HEAT rounds for anti-armor combat),in addition the Soviet T-34 was vastly superior to anything the germans fielded for the first 2+ years of combat..it wasn't until '43 when the tide had already turned against germany that they had the Tiger tank and then the Panthers,but by '44 the Soviets had thier own new class of heavy tanks. The germans won in the first 2 years because of superior tactics and elan. You are also mistaken when you label the entire german army as nazis. As a side note my g/f is Russian(from georgia) and I'm quite far form being a Nazi admirer.

Very very hard to tangle to this man when it comes to WW2. As a side note , some of the Russian torture methods at Stalingrad and even used in revenge after the war I would not repeat here. Suffice to say they gave the Pol Pot boys a good run for their money.
To answer the question in terms of modern fighting units , i would agree with what some have posted above:
1. French Foreign legion
2. SAS

both units are essentially comprised of psychologically damaged people without pity or remorse.

 

[revexrevex]

4everhung, ok you're right. Russians had superior technology. HOwever Germans had a superoir mode of production. Their war machine was at full swing as they swept the Western Europe. Their factories were creating death machines, while Russian soldiers were collecting wheat to make bread. Russians never thought that the Germans would EVEN DARE to attack them, imagine that denial that cost so many lives? Germans had an element of surprise, their individual soldiers were better armored with more provisions, and they were creating tanks and airplanes while the Soviet factories stood silent. Do you know how many 18 year old man "pogranichniki" who were protecting the border, died? They werent even armed, most of them, and germans slaughtered them all. I am educated enough to appreciate the accomplishments and valiency of the German special forces, so don't think I am so one sided. There were many heroes in the Nazi army, many accomplishments, all served for the wrong cause.

 

[revexrevex]

JavaGuru, you are an encyclopedia on the specifics of war. I always enjoy reading your posts, your knowledge is incredible.

 

[javaguru]

As Napoleon is attributed to have said," The morale is to the physical as ten is to one." The German victories were based on superior tactics, training and their understanding of combined arms warfare. Even the French had a superior tank to the Wehrmacht in the form of the Charb1. German tanks couldn't penetrate its front armour and had to track it or ambush it for side/rear shots. Fortunately for the werhrmacht the french dispersed their armor as infantry support as opposed to concentrating it, one of a series of fatal mistakes.

At the beginning of operation Barbarossa, the war against the Soviet Union, the Red Army was thrown into disarray and literally overrun by the Wehrmacht. Stalin personally oversaw much of the defence, ordering divisions to hold their ground regardless of the military situation and ordering suicidal human wave attacks. Eventually due to the wehrmachts problems with supply they were left with two options as they approached Moscow. They could halt the advance and resupply for a spring offensive or use their remaining supplies for one final push into Moscow. It was decided to press on to Moscow. The onset of Winter as well as fresh reserves from Siberia saved Moscow. Hitler was enraged and sacked many of his leading generals and replaced them with politically reliable "yes men." Stalin on the other hand allowed able men like Zhukov and Konev to run the military operations while Hitler insisted on intervening more and more,overriding his generals.

An example of this fatal policy by Hitler was Von Paulus, commander of 6th army at Stalingrad. He was noted as being an excellent staff officer and politically reliable but as a junior officer had several derogatory entries in his record. He was critisized for lacking initiative and being overly cautious. These traits would play out along with Hitlers orders to hold at all cost and doom 6th Army at Stalingrad,spelling the beginning of the end for the Wehrmacht in the East.

While the Wehrmacht didn't have a direct hand in running the death camps and many officers weren't nazi's they were still very much complicit. There are numerous commendations for Wermacht units from Hitler/Himmler for helping the SS round up and deport Jews and other "undesirables." Likewise, Wehrmacht units formed einsatz gruppen or special action groups for this sole purpose.

 

[Spartacus]

4everhung, ok you're right. Russians had superior technology. HOwever Germans had a superoir mode of production. Their war machine was at full swing as they swept the Western Europe. Their factories were creating death machines, while Russian soldiers were collecting wheat to make bread. Russians never thought that the Germans would EVEN DARE to attack them, imagine that denial that cost so many lives? Germans had an element of surprise, their individual soldiers were better armored with more provisions, and they were creating tanks and airplanes while the Soviet factories stood silent. Do you know how many 18 year old man "pogranichniki" who were protecting the border, died? They werent even armed, most of them, and germans slaughtered them all. I am educated enough to appreciate the accomplishments and valiency of the German special forces, so don't think I am so one sided. There were many heroes in the Nazi army, many accomplishments, all served for the wrong cause.

..wrong again,throughout the entire war Russian production dwarfed Germany's..Hitler didn't even set the german economy into "total war" production until sometime about mid '43,when after the stalingrad catastrophe he realized germany was in deep shit.. i could go into production figure minutae(such as the Soviets were producing a T-34 tank about every 6 minutes)to illustrate my point,but I'm not really in the mood to cut and paste..I'll grant you that germany was indeed the beligerant when it invaded the USSR(though there is quite some debate about whether Stalin was also inclined to invade Germany eventually..after all the USSR and Nazi Germany did both carve up Poland in '39 and the Soviets invaded the vastly weaker Finland in '40..wonder how many 18 year old Finn's died protecting their border?). When the Soviets were overrunning german territory in '45 they were struck about how high the standard of living was for the germans and the Russian soldiers became more emboldened and determined because they felt anger over a nation which enjoyed such comparative oppulence had felt a need to invade such a relatively poor nation(for the average Russian citizen). So I attempt to understand both viewpoints in the conflict,but I'd really like to hear what you have to say about the Soviet invasion of Finland which predated Hitler's invasion of the USSR..And for the record the Finnish soldiers of WWII were the best of the war. I can elaborate,but in a nutshell they really smacked around the Russians though they were vastly,and I mean vastly outnumbered and out -equiped. One of the contributing reasons for Hitler's hunch that the Soviet Union might cave in easily came from his observation's of the dismal performance of the Red Army against little Finland

 

[javaguru]

JavaGuru, you are an encyclopedia on the specifics of war. I always enjoy reading your posts, your knowledge is incredible.

Thanks! I had the privelage of studying military history in one of the best programs in the United States. I probaly had about half a dozen classes that involved WWII in one form or another.

 

[Empire]

I would give them all a nod of respect.

 

[Spartacus]

As Napoleon is attributed to have said," The morale is to the physical as ten is to one." The German victories were based on superior tactics, training and their understanding of combined arms warfare. Even the French had a superior tank to the Wehrmacht in the form of the Charb1. German tanks couldn't penetrate its front armour and had to track it or ambush it for side/rear shots. Fortunately for the werhrmacht the french dispersed their armor as infantry support as opposed to concentrating it, one of a series of fatal mistakes.

..true about the Char B,and the French had about 3-4 other tanks that were superior to the best the Germans fielded(which was about 278 mark IVs)..at the outbreak the french had about 3200 tanks and the germans had 2500,of which about 2/3s of which were the light,vulnerable and trivially-armed PZ Is and IIs..you are quite correct about the french mis-using their armor..and though the French tanks were superiorly armed and armored,the great flaw in french tank design was that the turrets were small and the commander ahd to not only control the tank,but also serve/load and fire the gun..too much for one guy to do and at the same time deal with the new fast-paced warfare the germans were about to unleash on them..french tank design was as stuck in WWI mentality as their Maginot Line..for example,the Char B had a 47mm gun mounted in the turret,and a more impressive 75mm gun in the hull..problem was the hull mounted gun could be elevated and depressed,but not traversed;the whole tank had to be turned..and the driver served this gun so he too was overwhelmed... you can see that the french saw their armor as sort of mobile pillboxes and hence deployed them mostly scattred about infantry units..imagine the overworked commanders of these tanks dealing with concentrations of german armor moving about and deploying quickly..the french shit thier pants

 

[Yarg!]

I didnt know that FFL was a spec forces unit. I thought it was an army corp with recruit from alot of countries. O well... Anyways, I am in the Canadian Army Reserve, and I know that the JTF2 are not cry babies. When the war in Afghanistan began, George Bush himself REQUESTED that Canada send it's famed snipers and its JTF2. JTF2 is modeled after British SAS ( which is the pioneer of all modern special forces units) and frequently cross trains with it. Alot of JTF2 men are from the disbanded Canadian Airborne unit which, before its disbandment was the best in the world. Our snipers are also the best in the world, and I am not making this shit up. They recently won a sniping contest between various countries which included British SAS snipers, FBI snipers, and alot of spec forces snipers from other countries. It is a shame that our military is soo poorly funded because our soldiers are damn good at what they do. Madinka, I have alot of respect for your grandfather and any World War 2 vet, for my grandfather also fought in The War. Also I think SAS might be the best in Spec Force in the world, along with JTF2 ofcourse.

 

[motocrosser]

won't let me vote, but I got to go with the Rangers. You ever watched the Best Ranger Comp. on OLN? Man is it grueling

 

[tiger88]

Waffen SS back in the day.....what about Delta Force????


who the hell are the Viginia boys??? the republican said that????

 

[Climber406]

Respect for the dead

Shugard and Gordon were both Deltas.

Atleast have the fucking decency to spell SFC Randall D. Shughart's name right. Both of them are fucking CMOH awardees for fuck sake. Show some respect.