Where goes the line between "anabolic dose" and "natural dose"?

[-SD-]

here are some free test numbers from a 2001 study.....

25 mg base:593 16weeks:253
50 mg base:566 16weeks:306
125 mg base:553 16weeks:570
300 mg base:653 16weeks:1,345
600 mg base:632 16weeks:2,370

Notice that 25 and 50mg a week significantly lowered free test at the 16 week mark. The reason being is that the exo test shut down natural production. The 125mg/wk group appeared to have approx the same free test while the 300mg/wk group basically doubled their free test.

So what conclusion can be drawn by this? If you want mid range test numbers on your labs then you should probably be an approx 125mg/wk. If you want high normal range then your probably looking at a dose of around 250mg/wk.

The above study these numbers came from showed virtually no sides on the 125 and 300mg dose.

16 weeks is basically a long cycle. the principle behind HRT is that you arent supposed to come off. I was on 10 months (40+ weeks). At the 5 month mark my T levels were higher than normal. oftheshore is wanting to know if he can "goose up" his test levels but still remain in the high normal range and get a little anabolic kick or something. The thread I posted shows how it cant be done because eventually the body gets shut down and you end up worse off than before you even started any HRT.
So either you take too little and get shut down anyway (25mg-50mg), or you take too much and get shut down because its taken too long. Its no win, either take a full on cycle and go into pct and give your body a chance to normalize, or dont do it at all.

 

[Zyglamail]

16 weeks is basically a long cycle. the principle behind HRT is that you arent supposed to come off. I was on 10 months (40+ weeks). At the 5 month mark my T levels were higher than normal. oftheshore is wanting to know if he can "goose up" his test levels but still remain in the high normal range and get a little anabolic kick or something. The thread I posted shows how it cant be done because eventually the body gets shut down and you end up worse off than before you even started any HRT.
So either you take too little and get shut down anyway (25mg-50mg), or you take too much and get shut down because its taken too long. Its no win, either take a full on cycle and go into pct and give your body a chance to normalize, or dont do it at all.

Im not sure I am following you....

At your 100mg/wk dose I would expect you to have low test yet not quite as low as you reported via your labs.

16 weeks should be long enough for your body to shut down natty production and for the results to show your test levels provided by just the exo test.

If you were on HCG at the same time, depending on when your labs where taken that could have a significant impact on the free test numbers.

The OP asked about drawing the line between normal and anabolic doses of test. The above numbers are fairly indicative of what many members here report their labs to be on similar doses. Once again the dosing and when labs are done, as well as if HCG is used, will have a big impact on the lab results.

Since everyone is different of course the above numbers are just a rough guide but are still applicable to the OP's question.

The only way the OP is going to know whats optimal for him is to get labs done before and after the start of a test regimen. Ideally his labs while on "on" should be done just before an injection is due after having been "on" for a good 10+ weeks.

 

[-SD-]

At your 100mg/wk dose I would expect you to have low test yet not quite as low as you reported via your labs.

the results were after 10 months straight of 100mg/wk with no sort of ancillaries used.

16 weeks should be long enough for your body to shut down natty production and for the results to show your test levels provided by just the exo test.

yes

If you were on HCG at the same time, depending on when your labs where taken that could have a significant impact on the free test numbers.

nothing used, just 100mg/wk t-cyp. i wanted to control the variables and only using one thing shows what happened when only HRT doses of test is used with controlling for no other variables.

The OP asked about drawing the line between normal and anabolic doses of test. The above numbers are fairly indicative of what many members here report their labs to be on similar doses. Once again the dosing and when labs are done, as well as if HCG is used, will have a big impact on the lab results.

I dont think there is any such thing as a non anabolic dose of test. If you are introducing exogenous test into your system then by definition you are going beyond what is normal for you. But yes when the dosing and when the labs are done will make a big difference to show when optimum levels occur and when shutdown occurs. I dont know how HCG would affect the scenario except to say it would probably delay the inevitable shutdown.

Since everyone is different of course the above numbers are just a rough guide but are still applicable to the OP's question.

yes

The only way the OP is going to know whats optimal for him is to get labs done before and after the start of a test regimen. Ideally his labs while on "on" should be done just before an injection is due after having been "on" for a good 10+ weeks.

True the only way to know is to get the labs done at intervals. From my experience with this whole experiment its best to either just full on cycle, or not at all. If you are a healthy younger male with normal test levels you cant "kinda sorta" get on test and not have suppression and the eventual nullification of everything you were trying to accomplish in the first place. The body will always adjust to find homeostasis sooner or later.

 

[Zyglamail]

True the only way to know is to get the labs done at intervals. From my experience with this whole experiment its best to either just full on cycle, or not at all. If you are a healthy younger male with normal test levels you cant "kinda sorta" get on test and not have suppression and the eventual nullification of everything you were trying to accomplish in the first place. The body will always adjust to find homeostasis sooner or later.

I guess we are kind of arguing semantics really. What I gathered from the OP's post was what level of exo test is equivalent to natural test. Then he wanted to just go slightly beyond that to get some additional benefit with minimal sides.

Now I did state above its kinda silly to just replace your test with exo test if your not going to get any benefit so its important to know where your at T wise now and then when into dosing so you can adjust accordingly. I agree that it seems silly for a young guy with decent test levels to go light because your shutting yourself down with no benefit (ie replacing endo T with exo T).

However, at the same time we can see from studies and empirical evidence that 300mg/wk should bump most folks over the high end of normal and at doses in the 300-400 range usually have little in the way of sides. And I think its this middle ground that the OP is looking for although, once again depending on his natty test it still may not be worth it. If his normal levels are say 900+ doing a cycle of 300mg/wk and having a free T of 1300 may not be worth getting shutdown and dealing with that. On the flip side if his natty T levels are say 450, then almost tripling them with 300mg/wk may offer some nice gains.

He cant really make an informed decision though if he doesnt know where his natty T is at.

 

[-SD-]

I guess we are kind of arguing semantics really. What I gathered from the OP's post was what level of exo test is equivalent to natural test. Then he wanted to just go slightly beyond that to get some additional benefit with minimal sides.

Now I did state above its kinda silly to just replace your test with exo test if your not going to get any benefit so its important to know where your at T wise now and then when into dosing so you can adjust accordingly. I agree that it seems silly for a young guy with decent test levels to go light because your shutting yourself down with no benefit (ie replacing endo T with exo T).

However, at the same time we can see from studies and empirical evidence that 300mg/wk should bump most folks over the high end of normal and at doses in the 300-400 range usually have little in the way of sides. And I think its this middle ground that the OP is looking for although, once again depending on his natty test it still may not be worth it. If his normal levels are say 900+ doing a cycle of 300mg/wk and having a free T of 1300 may not be worth getting shutdown and dealing with that. On the flip side if his natty T levels are say 450, then almost tripling them with 300mg/wk may offer some nice gains.

He cant really make an informed decision though if he doesnt know where his natty T is at.

True but the basic principle is that it doesnt matter what his own levels are as long as they are in the normal range, if he starts taking "HRT" he is going to be shut down under a year. It already seems like hes assuming he has normal t levels and simply wants to bump it up while still having overall levels remain in the high-normal range. Assuming thats true, that will work for only so long and then he will be shutdown as demonstrated by the input i received in my thread i posted. So he may as well just do a full on cycle and hit his receptors they way they should be and make the gains, get in and get out, hit pct hard, etc just like a normal person.

 

[ceo]

I haven't read much of this thread, but I started TRT at 100mg/week test cyp. 12 weeks in, 5 days after injection, my total test was 555. 9 days after that same injection my total test was 471. 12 days after that same injection my levels were 245.

Prior to beginning TRT, my levels were tested twice in the 50's. Range is around 250-850. But, the same dose won't work the same way for everyone, but for most people it will be about the same. 200mg should be plenty to get anyone into the mid-high end of the range.

 

[ceo]

I haven't read much of this thread, but I started TRT at 100mg/week test cyp. 12 weeks in, 5 days after injection, my total test was 555. 9 days after that same injection my total test was 471. 12 days after that same injection my levels were 245.

Prior to beginning TRT, my levels were tested twice in the 50's. Range is around 250-850. But, the same dose won't work the same way for everyone, but for most people it will be about the same. 200mg should be plenty to get anyone into the mid-high end of the range.