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When will people finally learn how to train??

  • Thread starter Thread starter Debaser
  • Start date Start date
D

Debaser

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Those who know me on the training board will see that I'm rehashing a lot of info here. Here is a disturbing note that I need to address...

I am natural. I probably will always be natural. However, I have absolutely nothing against steroids, if they are used responsibly. But it seems to me that 3/4 of the time this is not the case. Let's take a look at something, shall we? Some simple figures:

Anabolic board 822201 posts 93439 threads
Training board 112805 posts 10567 threads

This board gets roughly 8 times the traffic. Why do so many here fail to take their training and diet seriously and instead turn to gear? I couldn't even count the number of times someone has made a post like "H3LP ME W/MY 1RST CYCLEZ!!" You open the thread, and he states that he is 6'3", 180 lbs and has "tried everything." What a joke. And then many of you start prescribing him stacks that I would never touch in my lifetime, if I decided to start. Here's a thought, direct them to the training board! And maybe some of you guys should go once in awhile too. I find it odd that there are so many experienced guys here, with a genuine love for the sport, who simply don't talk about training or diet. THAT'S how you can help people out! Here is the situation as it stands:

1. Many people who have "tried everything" have really just tried "every kind of 4 or 5 day muscle split SH0CK program that flex has to offer."

2. A productive, logical training routine like DC training or HST might be suggested to them (at least on the training board).

3. They say "N0 W4Y DUD3Z," stating that "it's impossible" for 1-2 sets per bodypart to stimulate growth.

4. They don't gain anymore, and are probably overtrained into oblivion from eating half their bodyweight in protein grams a day while doing 20 sets to failure 5 days a week.

5. They give up and turn to steroids, and start gaining again. They still don't know shit about training, but the drugs make up for this.

I will always direct anyone with a hypertrophy focus to either DC training or HST (Hypertrophy-Specific Training) . Both reached a similar conclusion on the best way to grow muscle. Here is what 90% of this board needs to discover, whether on their own or from outside assistance:

FREQUENCY, NOT VOLUME, IS THE KEY TO RAPID GROWTH.

All things considered, do you want to grow 52 times a year (working out once a week, and this is assuming you're NOT overtraining with too many failure sets or excessive volume), or two or even THREE TIMES THAT? If you are able to recover and grow in 2-3 days (by using low volume and progressive load) then why wait another 4-5 days before training again? The answer is because since many of you are stuck doing 20 sets per bodypart with a lot of intensity, it takes you that long for your CNS to recover.

Okay I need to go to work, so I have to cut this short here. There are differences between HST and DC, you should choose one based on your goals (this is assuming you're in the market for muscular gain, and not powerlifting and the like):

DC: Very rapid strength and muscle gains.
HST: Less in the way of strength but probably more muscle gain.

As for diet, I recommend DC's diet to everybody. Pick a program and start gaining again.
 
You are right, most just don't want to look at their training. They WANT the juice. It's an excuse in my book. I mean it pretty obvious that you can add up to 30-40 lbs in a year with DC training. With that being said one should not use drugs for a year or 2 from starting a dc routine. In 2 years you should be able to pack on close to 60 pernmanent punds, naturally. So why juice.


If you are not gaining naturally you will gain shittily on the juice as well. It will only mask the problem, which will promptly return with a vengence post cycle.

But it's all right i am sure that the intelligent people will figure this out sooner or later, but most never will.
 
Agree,, most people are numbnuts when it comes to training. I was much bigger and stronger nattie then a lot of the dudes are at my gym all juiced up. I think you need at least 3 years of nattie training before turning to aas. I have always used a low volume training style ala Mike Mentzer and it works great and even better when you are on.
 
bump

bump, good post bro. This is the gear forum, which would probablly explain the lack of diet/form topics. But you do raise a very good point. Most of the guys at my gym just don't know what they're doing. They have the "get as big as possible, as fast as possible" mentality. They think the more oil inject, the better they will look. I too began with the same mentality, but have learned since. Now I can take very small amounts of gear, even down to 200mg/test per week alone, and have great results, w/ proper diet and form of course. But I don't claim to have mastered the sport in any way. I think everyone is different and even their own bodys and metabolism, etc changes over time. So I believe that I'm always learning the basics, and relearning and relearning. - josh
 
Debaser, I'm a fellow DC trainer. I'm kinda surprised that you haven't gotten flamed for this post, b/c your post is a knock to the ego for some. But, you're so right. Karma, buddy.
 
Good post,
I rarely go to the training board, but it is more fun to read about steroids then reading about lifting.

But there is no need for someone experienced to go there every day. You need to pick a routine and stick with it for a few weeks / months to see how you respond.
 
For what's worth.......I tried gear for the first time a few years ago. AT the time I was training very hard but for a cardio based sport of rowing. I was stacking andro and nor andro and creatine and tribus and I was around 12% BF at 185lbs and 6'0 tall. When I stopped focusing on the reps and went after the weight when I got out of college my strength was moving up and my size wasn't. I got a job as a bar-back and saw the bouncers and wanted to look like they did. This great bro told me how to train better (naturally) and after 6 months and adding 10lbs of solid muscle I wanted more. And I didn't want to wait. For me that is why i turned to gear. I know I could have stayed natural and reached my goals in a year but i could also use gear and achieve my goals in 3 months. Each year after I would do one cycle a year and train the rest of the year naturally. Each time waiting til I started to plateau. This year I wanted to do a body building show so it was the first time I did two cycles in a year. Point of my run on. I agree dieting and training is huge and I know that nothing in life is free so with gear and rapid results come all the risks and side effects. I personally do not know any natural body builders that are as big as me. I know they exist you see them in the natural shows but the size comparison isn't even close. Look at the last two years of winners of the natural events...John Hanson 5'8" 200lbs Naturall MR.O and Mr Universe....Lee Preist weighs more then 230 at 5'5" or whatever he is and John won his first show in 1979....so after 22 years of victories the man is a shredded 200lbs? Take that dedication and add a cycle a year and Hanson is 260lbs. I don't believe that people should turn to gear without having any background in serious training but that is a personal decision and I think the bros on this board might not agree with a 19 year old on gear but if the kid has it in his mind that he is going to do it then you might as well eduacted him so he can be safe. I will end with this...i always put way to much into juice and not enough into my diet, this year I learned what a diet was and how to use it to your advantage and it makes a huge difference. I give you mad props for putting this post up and I hope people respect your thoughts and don't post any crap on it, but if you want real size then natural is not the way to do it. people may disagree and you can probably find a few natural freaks who have good size but steriods can make up for what genetics can not provide.
 
Great post!
One thing though, remember not to make broad generalizations such as "frequency is the key to growth not volume."
If I had to state what I thought the single most important factor would be I'd say intensity. Did you break down the muscle fiber, did you give 100%? Volume can be an inhibiting factor, so next I would ask did I stress the muscle too much?
Just some things to think about.
 
I find it odd that there are so many experienced guys here, with a genuine love for the sport, who simply don't talk about training or diet
Click to expand...

back when elite was a good board, people would throw in their workouts and diets along with their cycles. seems like now those threads either get moved or get replies like "go to the diet/training forum". but i agree with what you are saying
 
cleverlandshark2001 said:
Great post!
One thing though, remember not to make broad generalizations such as "frequency is the key to growth not volume."
If I had to state what I thought the single most important factor would be I'd say intensity. Did you break down the muscle fiber, did you give 100%? Volume can be an inhibiting factor, so next I would ask did I stress the muscle too much?
Just some things to think about.
Click to expand...

Well I'm not saying you "won't grow" with once bodypart a week routines, you will as long as you're recouperating and eating correctly. I'm just saying that all things considered, if you can train more often you will grow more often.

I used to think intensity was most important. With DC training it is pretty important. But HST shows that ultra intensity is not required for growth. Hell you're only going to failure once every 2 weeks.
 
Debaser....where can one learn more about those two types of training methods? Taining Board? Or is there a better source?
 
Click on the HST link in my post, or for DC training look at the sticky I posted on the training board.
 
Ditto to everything Debaser said. I train HST. Pretty much 99% of the people on the HST boards are natural, but it's incredibly common to hear "I've tried almost every training style, and I thought I was pretty much at my genetic limit. But during my first HST cycle I gained 8 pounds! This is unbelievable!"

The results people have had while on gear are just ridiculous. One of our guys who was already 230-ish at 8% bodyfat did a moderate cycle combined with HST, gained some 20-odd pounds in two months and kept like 15 of it. Another guy managed to drop 15 pounds to 260 while increasing his muscle mass. I'd love to see more people do HST, expecially juiced. It'd be interesting to explore the limits of muscle gain.

-casualbb
 
First of all that is your opinion.

Secondly, I don't like the DC training program.

I have my own and yes it produces great results.

Different people respond to different training regimes.

This is an anabolic board, most people here are either using or thinking about it. Otherwise, go to the training board.

The use of AS is a personal decision, just like the work out program that you choose or staying natural.

I was natural for 20 years, competed natural, won many competitions. Achieved 18 inch arms with a 29 inch waist, all natural.

Biggest mistake on my part, competing natural when everyone else was juicing. I was convinced that I could do it. At one point in my life I would never have used AS. Felt that it was an unfair advantage and all of that crap.

Once I maxed my natural potential and got older, I needed some help to do what I enjoy. Wish I had done it earlier.

Don't mean to flame but your being way to righteous for my taste.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

peace
 
I don't post at the training board much, but I read it way more than I read the ana board. There really is so much information there. The training forum, powerlifting forum, and diet forums are fucking awesome. I just know more people on the ana board so I post here more often.

-sk
 
Zoomster said:

Different people respond to different training regimes.
Click to expand...

The "everyone is different" idea is the most incorrectly-used phrase on Elite Fitness. It doesn't matter if you look like gandhi or get 20" arms from mowing lawns, the principles of muscle growth remain unchanged. The only real differences are the rate at which you will gain muscle, and your genetic ceiling. It also affects recovery, so that a guy with elite genetics could be comparable to an average man on gear. The elite could probably get away with ultra volume training with many sets to failure, whereas the average man [without the drugs] could not.

Yes, my posts are often a bit righteous or somewhat inflammatory. That's just the way I post here. But to be honest, I think it has a better effect with this topic than "Excuse me sirs, but would you please be so kind as to partake in training discussion more often?" I mean this is bodybuilding. Sometimes you have to give someone a little shove in the right direction, instead of a polite hand-holding. Then they might ask themselves if they're really making the kind of gains they want. Which leads me to another point:

Well obviously some of my post is opinion, but the inherent principles underlying muscle growth are fact. And yes I understand this is an anabolic board. I'm not telling people to discuss training here. I'm relaying the fact that the training board gets poor participation in comparison. Which is really quite sad.
 
Good post, especially the first paragraph. What is so different about muscle fibers and the way they grow from one guy to the next? Stimulus, recover, grow, Stimulus, recpver, grpw, repeat. Now, the rate/speed will vary of course.

Debaser said:


The "everyone is different" idea is the most incorrectly-used phrase on Elite Fitness. It doesn't matter if you look like gandhi or get 20" arms from mowing lawns, the principles of muscle growth remain unchanged. The only real differences are the rate at which you will gain muscle, and your genetic ceiling. It also affects recovery, so that a guy with elite genetics could be comparable to an average man on gear. The elite could probably get away with ultra volume training with many sets to failure, whereas the average man [without the drugs] could not.

Yes, my posts are often a bit righteous or somewhat inflammatory. That's just the way I post here. But to be honest, I think it has a better effect with this topic than "Excuse me sirs, but would you please be so kind as to partake in training discussion more often?" I mean this is bodybuilding. Sometimes you have to give someone a little shove in the right direction, instead of a polite hand-holding. Then they might ask themselves if they're really making the kind of gains they want. Which leads me to another point:

Well obviously some of my post is opinion, but the inherent principles underlying muscle growth are fact. And yes I understand this is an anabolic board. I'm not telling people to discuss training here. I'm relaying the fact that the training board gets poor participation in comparison. Which is really quite sad.
Click to expand...
 
so let me get this straight - you are basically suggesting to do 2 sets per body part, with several body parts per day instead of the "more traditional" 4~5 sets per body part/1 body part per day? Sounds interesting. I have been doing 4~5 sets per BP (for a total of arounr 16~20 reps total) per day. Maybe I should switch to 2 sets (total of 8 reps) per body part and do a few at a time, multiple times per week? This is an interesting thread :)!! BUMP!
 
You're getting closer :)

I would definately look into both DC and HST, and see which is more suited towards you. There's so much information out there that there need not be guesswork on your part.
 
Great post debaser. I like reading the training board, although it is pretty rare that I do these days. I think that the training board is a great place to start, especially for newbies. You just have to remember that because someone is new the boards does not mean that they are newbies to the sport. I think that its good that you bring up this point for the people that come to this board saying "how can I get ripped". Usually this is kids who dont have their training down packed. When someone says I have been training for 1 year now ... that says to me that they dont know how to train. It takes years to develop form, understand all the bodybuilding pricipals and learn good form for all lifts. Lots of people on this board are very knowledgeable about training and are here for anabolic info.

You do have me interested in this HST program. By the way I have done the DC training style many times before. Years before seeing it here on elite. Its not like it is some breakthrough discovery. Also I dont think that doing any program for 2 years, be it DC or HST is a good idea. You should always be changing your routine around, no matter how great it is. I am going to look into the HST training tonight.

Cheers,
mavy
 
I amazed how open-minded people are on this board. Good for you guys for looking into new routines.

-casualbb
 
casualbb said:
I amazed how open-minded people are on this board. Good for you guys for looking into new routines.

-casualbb
Click to expand...

These principle's have been around for twenty years, there is nothing new here.

I understand the mechanics of muscle growth, training, diet and rest recovery. Having been involved in this sport for 20 plus years.

Too make a bold statement that people are not different is crazy.
In addition to competing, I was a personal trainer for many years.

Simple fact, different people respond differently to different training regimes.

There are people on this board that will swear to training a bodypart once a week, some say twice, some say three. Arnold believed in training your bodyparts three times per week.

There are physiological differences in people that determine where training and optimum growth occur. You also must consider
body type, Endo, Ecto or Mesomorph.

There are also some psycological factors.

I am clearly speaking of the natural athlete, as I trained that way
for twenty years. Peolple wanted me to train them because they liked my look.

I do encourage all to experiment with different routines, but if it doesn't work for you don't think there is something wrong with you. It is simply not the right routine for you.

In that respect every single one of us is different. Just how an individual processes their diet is a huge factor.

Personally I think diet is 75% of the game.

peace
 
Sure training is overlooked but I think diet is even more overlooked then training.
I track my calories with www.fitday.com and it has made a big difference in my results. I was not eating nearly enough....
 
I am quoting Shawn Ray on saying this "There is no such thing as overtraining! Simple under-recuperating." I think that more people should hold a view like this IMO. But I still would say diet is more important.

And the reason I don't talk much about my diet or training is because it works very good, and I don't anticipate any change anytime son. (Ironic I say that, even though change is in every workout).
 
Too make a bold statement that people are not different is crazy.
In addition to competing, I was a personal trainer for many years.

Simple fact, different people respond differently to different training regimes.
Click to expand...

We're not talking about apples and oranges. If you cut muscle tissue out of a 260 lb. monster and a 110 pound woman and peek at them under a microscope, they'll be indistinguishable. Debaser's statement really isn't that bold, in the sense that he's stating the truth. Each person is not a completely new system to consider, with a grab-bag of training methods to be tried. Science has revealed a good deal about the way muscles grow in the 20+ years you've been training. DC and HST are the result of that, and I really think that one can experience breakthrough growth using either program.

-casual
 
casualbb said:


We're not talking about apples and oranges. If you cut muscle tissue out of a 260 lb. monster and a 110 pound woman and peek at them under a microscope, they'll be indistinguishable. Debaser's statement really isn't that bold, in the sense that he's stating the truth. Each person is not a completely new system to consider, with a grab-bag of training methods to be tried. Science has revealed a good deal about the way muscles grow in the 20+ years you've been training. DC and HST are the result of that, and I really think that one can experience breakthrough growth using either program.

-casual
Click to expand...

These training principles are not new, they have been around for 20 plus years. Remember Mike Mentzer?

Look a persons results are determined by many different physiological facts....body type, metabolism, recovery rate, oxygen uptake, blood volume, protein synthesis, muscle tendon connections, natural testosterone levels and on.

Anyway, if you think it will work for you and you are committed to it then these workouts probably will produce results. My point is two fold, one, not everyone prefers this type of training and they do respond to more volume, two, this stuff is not new.
 
Zoomster said:


These training principles are not new, they have been around for 20 plus years. Remember Mike Mentzer?

Look a persons results are determined by many different physiological facts....body type, metabolism, recovery rate, oxygen uptake, blood volume, protein synthesis, muscle tendon connections, natural testosterone levels and on.

Anyway, if you think it will work for you and you are committed to it then these workouts probably will produce results. My point is two fold, one, not everyone prefers this type of training and they do respond to more volume, two, this stuff is not new.
Click to expand...

Yes I remember Mike Mentzer, so let's compare ideologies:

HIT
Very intense workouts, all the time
Very infrequent workouts, maximum frequency of once a week and sometimes every 2-4 (!) weeks.

HST
Most training is at lower than maximum intensity. Failure, or close to it is only achieved once every 2 weeks.
Very frequent workouts, fullbody 3 times a week or even more.

DC
Most training is very intense. However, 2 week cruising periods (similar to HST strategic deconditioning) are used for CNS recovery.
Frequent workouts, each muscle group is hit 1.5-2 times a week.

I'm not sure how you're brining Mentzer into this. The only similarities are intensity in the DC program. Many programs are intense. What sets his apart is his realization of the fact that more frequency will yield more growth (assuming proper recovery).

Also, considering the central premise of what I'm saying is that frequency=growth, I'm not so sure how you can even refer to Mentzer, as he believed almost the exact opposite. For example, one of his routines (straight from the horses' mouth):


Workout A Flat Dumbell Flies Super Setted1 with Incline Press Close Grip, Palms Down Pull Down Reguar Deadlift

Workout B Leg Extension Super Setted1 with Squats Calf Raise

Workout C Dumbell Laterals Bent Over Dumbell Laterals Curl (Straight Bar) Tricep Pressdown Super Setted1 with Dips

Workout D Leg Extension (static hold2) Super Setted1 with Leg Press Calf Raise

Between each workout is three full days of rest. That means each muscle group is hit twice a month. Which means you are growing 24 times a year. This program will work well for strength but not for size.
 
ZOOMSTER::Simple fact, different people respond differently to different training regimes.
there are physiological differences in people that determine where training and optimum growth occur. You also must consider body type, Endo, Ecto or Mesomorph.

Doggcrapp:: absolute bull! You are talking about genetics and recovery rates thats it! What are you a rock and that guy over there a single celled organism and Im a mammal? Everybody isnt different--what will work for one guy will work for the next if he doesnt overtrain, doesnt undereat, and has the genetics to do so. If you have a black guy with incredible genetics who has the same recovery as a white guy with lousy genetics--you train them exactly the same!!!!! The problem is the white guy probaly doesnt have much of a genetic edge or a high fast twitch fiber count and the black guy is probaly going to get much larger quicker. Case closed. Recovery and elite muscle building genetics ARE THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IN PEOPLE. There are 400 pro bodybuilders in this world. Do you think they are all different? Ronnie Coleman is king of the hill because he has incredible recuperative abilities (hardcore training 6 days a week), incredible genetics and the willpower to lift backbreaking poundages routinely. Dorian Yates didnt have close to the recuperative ability of Coleman but found his niche as far as staying away from overtraining, had good genetics and the willpower to lift backbreaking poundages routinely. Where is the difference? You take anyone (enhanced or natural) and make them their genetically strongest without overtraining and you will have them at their largest. Id like to see anyone prove to me that someone who went to their utmost genetic limit of strength with between 6-20 reps on exercises who then got "bigger" by dropping their poundages in half. Bottom line: the heaviest trainers with multiple reps who dont overtrain are the largest bodybuilders that are out there (according to their genetics)
If your talking enhanced your talking Coleman vs Wheeler -who probaly has better genetics than Coleman but not even close to the determination or willpower to lift the poundages Coleman does--hence the 30-40lb size difference in muscularity between those two. I love this 20 sets vs one set crap--and thats what it is total crap! The guys doing "volume" training is doing 3-4 warmup sets to his heaviest weight which is one set! People who train my way are doing the exact same thing--warming up to their workset which is one set! I dont count warmups but the majority of people do out there and we are all pretty much doing the same things!
One guy like myself counts this this way
INCLINE PRESS 135/225/315/ AND THEN A WORKSET FOR 375 FOR 8 = 1 SET as one set done--he doesnt count warmups--because they are only warmups

Another guy writes this down
135x12
225x10
315x 8
375 x8 (workset)

He writes that down as he just did 4 sets on inclines. Where? did you grow from that 135x12 set? So someone doing 2-3 exercises per bodypart with the same warmup scheme is basically in my book doing 2-3 worksets while my guys do 1-2 all out worksets. Where the is the difference?
 
Shit i hate when i read a good post and my reply is on page 4. Good post. I spend most of my time on the diet boards not so much the training but definately agree. I just dont post cause all the info is there already. just gotta search. ^^^

TTORO
 
Though I've never used it while cutting, I've heard it does work very well. So much so that people are reporting gains in weight with shrinking waist sizes.
 
Mr.Kachok said:
nice thread, btw does HST training work well when cutting??
Click to expand...

I imagine it wouldn't be bad for cutting as it has many sets and, therefore, you will burn more calories. Overtraining can become a problem on it though if your calories aren't high imo.

-sk
 
A perfectly good explination why there are many more posts in the anabolic forum would be because their is insufficient knowledge in the real world regarding this topic... people come here to learn from people who have used it, people who have studied it, etc.

There are personal training courses, personal trainers, etc in the real world (non-internet) where people can look to increase their training, but people are more reluctant to ask their trainer about what goes good with Deca.

I don't think it is an Excuse, as someone said... it's a perfectly good explination.

And for anyone who wants to question MY training intensity, come to the gym with me, I train at the CFC on Lincoln, Barry and Belmont in Chicago... I'm usually there around the hours of 12-2pm... come on in, and tell me I lack intensity.

C-ditty
 
Citruscide said:
And for anyone who wants to question MY training intensity, come to the gym with me, I train at the CFC on Lincoln, Barry and Belmont in Chicago... I'm usually there around the hours of 12-2pm... come on in, and tell me I lack intensity.
Click to expand...

Umm 2hours in the gym ... I am sorry but that isn't intense unless you spend the first hour and 15mins talking then actually lift hard for 45mins. Not being a jackass or anything but true intensity is in the first set after a warmup, just like DC describes it. :) If you tax your muscles, how can you train with intensity? It is humanly possible to train 2hours straight and be intense IMO. Anyway, I am not flaming or anything but this is just my opinion.

I find that little longer workouts do help in keeping lean though. :)

I agree with the rest of your post btw.

-sk
 
I think he meant that that's the best time of day to run into him at the gym, not necessarily spending that much time there.

Every once in awhile I go up to Chicago, I would love to train C.
 
sk* said:


Umm 2hours in the gym ... I am sorry but that isn't intense unless you spend the first hour and 15mins talking then actually lift hard for 45mins. Not being a jackass or anything but true intensity is in the first set after a warmup, just like DC describes it. :) If you tax your muscles, how can you train with intensity? It is humanly possible to train 2hours straight and be intense IMO. Anyway, I am not flaming or anything but this is just my opinion.

I find that little longer workouts do help in keeping lean though. :)

I agree with the rest of your post btw.

-sk
Click to expand...

LOL -- hey dude... I'm usually AT the gym between 12 and 2pm... I didn't say I was working out from 12-2 pm... I usually train a client, and then workout myself. My workouts usually take around 45 minutes or less. I think I blasted through shoulders today at 30 minutes.

Just to clear that up... I'm not in the gym working out for 2 hours... and I might be there until 3pm, but I would have shown up at 1... it was just a TIME range that you could possibly run into me at. LOL

man... I have to explain EVERYthing I say... :)

C-ditty
 
Debaser said:
I think he meant that that's the best time of day to run into him at the gym, not necessarily spending that much time there.

Every once in awhile I go up to Chicago, I would love to train C.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I ment.. :)

More than happy to have you swing in. :)

c-ditty
 
" Recovery and elite muscle building genetics ARE THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IN PEOPLE. There are 400 pro bodybuilders in this world. Do you think they are all different? Ronnie Coleman is king of the hill because he has incredible recuperative abilities (hardcore training 6 days a week), incredible genetics and the willpower to lift backbreaking poundages routinely. Dorian Yates didnt have close to the recuperative ability of Coleman but found his niche as far as staying away from overtraining, had good genetics and the willpower to lift backbreaking poundages routinely." by DoggCrap

This is exactly what I have been saying. To make a statement that people that are not on DC's routine do not know how to train is ridiculous. That is how the thread was presented.

Now before you start assuming that I advocate this or that in a routine, you need to stop, as I have not anywhere throughout this thread discussed my philosophy of training.

My reaction is simply to the arrogance of the initial statement.

I will restate, if people like DoggCraps routine then good for them.
Don't tell me that it's a new concept and that if your not on it then you don't know what you are doing.

There are too many others achieving results differently.
 
Citruscide said:


LOL -- hey dude... I'm usually AT the gym between 12 and 2pm... I didn't say I was working out from 12-2 pm... I usually train a client, and then workout myself. My workouts usually take around 45 minutes or less. I think I blasted through shoulders today at 30 minutes.

Just to clear that up... I'm not in the gym working out for 2 hours... and I might be there until 3pm, but I would have shown up at 1... it was just a TIME range that you could possibly run into me at. LOL

man... I have to explain EVERYthing I say... :)

C-ditty
Click to expand...

:D
 
As for diet, I recommend DC's diet to everybody. Pick a program and start gaining again. [/B][/QUOTE]


WHere is DC's diet?
 
Re: Re: When will people finally learn how to train??

Punt said:
As for diet, I recommend DC's diet to everybody. Pick a program and start gaining again.
Click to expand...


WHere is DC's diet? [/B][/QUOTE]

You can go to www.animalkits.be and click on forum and find the cycles on pennies thread, he has a lot written about the diet there. There is also a section on it in the training section on his methods of training and diet.

Basic idea is to eat 500g or so protein a day and carbs and fats to satisfy cravings. Also try not to mix in fats and carbs together in a same meal and keep low carbs after 6pm. That's just to sum up though, he has a lot written on it.

-sk
 
Zoomster said:
" Recovery and elite muscle building genetics ARE THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IN PEOPLE. There are 400 pro bodybuilders in this world. Do you think they are all different? Ronnie Coleman is king of the hill because he has incredible recuperative abilities (hardcore training 6 days a week), incredible genetics and the willpower to lift backbreaking poundages routinely. Dorian Yates didnt have close to the recuperative ability of Coleman but found his niche as far as staying away from overtraining, had good genetics and the willpower to lift backbreaking poundages routinely." by DoggCrap

This is exactly what I have been saying. To make a statement that people that are not on DC's routine do not know how to train is ridiculous. That is how the thread was presented.

Now before you start assuming that I advocate this or that in a routine, you need to stop, as I have not anywhere throughout this thread discussed my philosophy of training.

My reaction is simply to the arrogance of the initial statement.

I will restate, if people like DoggCraps routine then good for them.
Don't tell me that it's a new concept and that if your not on it then you don't know what you are doing.

There are too many others achieving results differently.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but you are completely and utterly missing the point. First of all, that is not "exactly what you were saying," his entire post was written as a counter to yours. Maybe you should read it again. When did I say that DC was the only way to train? I said that if your primary goal is to build muscle, DC and HST will allow you to do it at the fastest rate possible.

So what if different people get results on any other program? Does that mean they are optimized for strength or size? If you gained 5 lbs of muscle in a year, sure those are "results," but would you be happy? I'm simply relaying the fastest way we know of to build muscle. You can disagree with me. But you'd be wrong.
 
So what if different people get results on any other program? Does that mean they are optimized for strength or size? If you gained 5 lbs of muscle in a year, sure those are "results," but would you be happy? I'm simply relaying the fastest way we know of to build muscle. You can disagree with me. But you'd be wrong.

In your opinion, based on the facts that you have now.

It is the fastest way to build muscle that you know of.

Quite franky, your last statement is hilarious.

This question of which routine is the "ultimate" has been around forever.

The over trainng issue has been addressed a thousand times in different routines.

How many Mr. Olympia contestants are maximizing their physique
using this routine?

Anyway, thanks for the debate, time for me to go train, my way!
 
I think the original point Zoomster was for newbies not juicing without learning how to train and diet properly. You've been doing this for a long time, so you've explored other options before hitting the gear. I could be wrong, but I thought that was the point. Learn to train and eat, and inform yourself about gear instead of just asking for the best cycle without knowing what you're getting yourself into.
 
Zoomster said:

How many Mr. Olympia contestants are maximizing their physique
using this routine?
Click to expand...


Wow. I can see now that logical reasoning won't work with you, because, quite frankly, you don't seem to be able to understand simple concepts. So I'll lay it all out for you one more time, real simple-like:

There is more than one way to build muscle. However, the rate at which you gain can be much faster from one program to the next. We know a LOT more than you seem to think we do on how muscle responds to training. Therefore programs can be created taking advantage of this knowledge, allowing for the fastest growth possible.

Since you can't understand that training more often [while still recovering] will yield faster growth (by the way, many OLYMPIA-LEVEL PHYSIQUES train their entire body TWICE A WEEK, though with much more volume than many of us can tolerate), think about this for a second:

How much muscle will you build if you train once a year? Obviously not as much as training once a month. And then not as much as once a week, which is probably what you do and what we're addressing. But, somehow, 2-3 times a week will NOT allow faster growth? Maybe you should try to explain that one.

And by the way, it's been proven that a third set is not going to produce much growth compared to doing only one set of an exercise, and after the third there are diminishing returns to the point of ineffectiveness.
 
Allright DeBaser!

I've been unable to stop pondering your theories on HST for the last few days, ever since I first read this post and all the supplemental info on HST.com (or whatever the URL is).

I thoroughly understand the logic behind HST, and it makes sense to me. You've done an excellent job explaining it, however I have a couple questions/concerns.

1) Clearly HST is based on the assumption that maximizing frequency is paramount for MAXIMIZING the rate of muscle growth over a given period of time. So, why not train everyday? I'm guessing that there is some physiological reason why 48 seems to be the "max" interval for recovery, but I have not seen it presented.

2) Can/should this period be adjusted with the use of gear?

3) 1 set per muscle group SEEMS wholy inadequate to stimulate growth, much less get a good workout it. I readily acknowledge that I have no idea how to guage what is necessary to stimulate growth, but, I know what it takes for me to feel exhausted after a workout, and 1 set per bodypart will not yield exhaustion. Do I need to relieve myself of this preconcieved notion that physical exhaustion is needed to stimulating muscle growth?

4) I tried HST this morning, except I did 2 sets (10-15 reps) of each excersize. (bench, rows, military, curls, extensions, shrugs, crunches). It took me about 35 minutes, which is about right, and I felt like I had a good, albeit medium intensity workout. If I do this EOD, will I be overtraining?

Thanks in advance for your reply. I'm looking forward to it.
 
Understanding the principles of your basic elementary routine is not an issue.

Quite frankly, it's you that seems too have a limited thought process.

I train each bodypart 2 times over 8 days.

Two warm up sets and two work sets per movement, typcially
three excercises per bodypart, which translates to 6 work sets every fourth day per bodypart. Workouts last 45 - 60 minutes.
This system works great for me.

My preference.
 
Bottom line is, AAS will get you a helluva lot farther ahead than you ever could without them. Hell, the guy who uses AAS and trains and eats half-assed will probably outdue the guy who uses no AAS, but trains like a mofo. Don't like it? TOUGH....bros have spent too many years getting ripped off by supplement companies, such as Weider's, with a bunch of hype and false advertising. It's time the tables have turned. When you buy AAS from a legit source, YOU WILL GET RESULTS. No more buying garbage supplements like Weider's and Cell-Tech and flushing your money down the toilet with every piss. Enjoy your Weider "ANIMAL PAK", I'll stick to what works.
 
excellent post bro. I agree with you. Hell, I almost get pissed off when these guys new to training are asking for cycle advice. And to make it worse, guys here give advice. I also see these same guys in my gym who been training three months, then you see them wispering to the local dumbass steroid dealer in a corner. When these guys ask me for advice I tell them how to diet properly, but it doesnt sink in. Why ??? because our society wants everything NOW. Shit I could talk about this forever but it does no good so I give up.
peace
 
sk* said:


I imagine it wouldn't be bad for cutting as it has many sets and, therefore, you will burn more calories. Overtraining can become a problem on it though if your calories aren't high imo.

-sk
Click to expand...

wow, i just tried it for the first time, doing 2 sets a muscle group, it was nice change of pace. Not as sore as when you lift single group only. I cut at 2500~ cal so im not 2 worried about a deficit.
 
Mr. Kachok -- so, you're doing a full HST cycle? Did you find maxes, take a deconditioning period, etc?

-casual
 
casualbb said:
Mr. Kachok -- so, you're doing a full HST cycle? Did you find maxes, take a deconditioning period, etc?

-casual
Click to expand...

Ya im gonna try the full thing. I know around where my max's are, i dont think 5 pounds makes much diff. As for deconditioning, i thought thats what the 15 rep 2 week piece is for???
 
actually, heh, you're supposed to take one before you being the 15's period. Nothing major, just 9 days or so.

-casual
 
Well...see...uh...light weights are effective for growth...IF you haven't trained for a certain period of time. 9 days is kinda the minimum. As much as it sucks, i'd really suggest you just take off the 9 days. Otherwise you risk either not growing or severely curtailing growth.

-casual
 
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