What is "freedom"?

[hanselthecaretaker]

To me it means having no laws. Plain and simple. Of course, this would mean chaos, so in order to have true freedom, we must have chaos. The only variable would be an individual's moral character. However, I'm sure a lack thereof could easily be dealt with in a lawless world.

This is my way of saying there are too many laws and regulations these days.

On a side note- I for one have more respect for the person who tries to outrun the cops when being chased for a speeding violation instead of merely pulling over like society's beaten dog.

Rock on, brother (or sister); rock on.

 

[Subzeero]

freedom is the courage to be oneself.

 

[H_T_]

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. --Kris Kristofferson

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Both very good answers.

 

[Subzeero]

future posters remember not to focus on what you want freedom from.

Remember to address what you want freedom FOR?

Both facets are equally important.

 

[H_T_]

Both very good answers.

you'll get some PC fuck in here talking about how our forefathers would have not meant for the freedom of yesterday to apply today. so here is a preemptive STFU.

 

[Subzeero]

you'll get some PC fuck in here talking about how our forefathers would have not meant for the freedom of yesterday to apply today. so here is a preemptive STFU.

very very well.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

PC-ness is a major violation of freedom.

 

[mrplunkey]

This is my way of saying there are too many laws and regulations these days.

Most definately.

Regulations are established to make sure those in power stay in power. Ironically though, it's the less-powerful who put people in positions to pass additional regulations.

 

[H_T_]

all i know, is that every single day, i am told i cannot do something. never is there a time when they say, it's ok for you to do this. it's all take, take, take.....

 

[radarstoy]

Freedom is that moment when your soul leaves your body in death.

Peace

 

[reaper99]

Freedom is the right to make choices with no consequences. And wether those choices are good or bad freedom means you have the right to choose. I want the right to choose to smoke a fucking joint if i wish. You want to see the best example of how our freedom is robbed?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SV05FFXUOH0

 

[gjohnson5]

In a Capitalist society , freedom is defined by money...

 

[test boy ii]

In a Capitalist society , freedom is defined by money...

Money buys you freedom.

making money takes it away.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Money buys you freedom.

making money takes it away.

Trading one freedom for another.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Freedom is the right to make choices with no consequences. And wether those choices are good or bad freedom means you have the right to choose. I want the right to choose to smoke a fucking joint if i wish. You want to see the best example of how our freedom is robbed?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SV05FFXUOH0

Yup, a big question mark to who (if anyone) controls the fed. And who have the last two chairmen of the reserve been? Here's a hint: The common retort to that answer might be something like..."jealous, anti-semite." *sigh* lol

 

[krishna]

It's a state of mind.

 

[velvett]

freedom is the courage to be oneself.

nice.

 

[PBR]

It's a state of mind.

very good....that it is.
"Free your mind, and the rest will follow"..

 

[Lao Tzu]

Freedom is the universal declaration of human rights. A list of freedoms most people agree you need to be considered 'free'.

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Beyond that, freedom is mental. It doesn't matter if you are rich and live in a free country if you are enslaved to anxiety or cannot cope with your past. I'd rather be poor in a shitty country with a strong mind than rich in a good country and be weak minded.

Beyond that, technology will open up a new level of freedom we cannot fathom right now when transhumanism hits and we end up rewiring our brains.

 

[Lao Tzu]

On a side note- I for one have more respect for the person who tries to outrun the cops when being chased for a speeding violation instead of merely pulling over like society's beaten dog.

Same here. The government and authroity figures need to fear the public as much as the public fears them. If not, then they have no incentive to treat us decently. Cops in America used to torture civilians routinely until a few decades ago. They didn't stop/slow down out of the goodness of their hearts, they stopped because the public organized and started fucking up their lives and careers if they did.

Most people just let authority figures and social conformity walk all over them. Read Stanley Milgram's book, it is really sad what social sheep we all are.

 

[gjohnson5]

State sponsored violence is very dangerous. The problem with allowing the police to go unchecked is that a cop who hates blacks or a cop who hates jews will pull you over and treat you harshly wheather you did something or not. It is the job of the state to defend it's police officers with whatever means at thier disposal, so allowing them to torture or become vigilantees would mean complete chaos

Same here. The government and authroity figures need to fear the public as much as the public fears them. If not, then they have no incentive to treat us decently. Cops in America used to torture civilians routinely until a few decades ago. They didn't stop/slow down out of the goodness of their hearts, they stopped because the public organized and started fucking up their lives and careers if they did.

Most people just let authority figures and social conformity walk all over them. Read Stanley Milgram's book, it is really sad what social sheep we all are.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

very good....that it is.
"Free your mind, and the rest will follow"..

-Envogue.

 

[Lao Tzu]

State sponsored violence is very dangerous. The problem with allowing the police to go unchecked is that a cop who hates blacks or a cop who hates jews will pull you over and treat you harshly wheather you did something or not. It is the job of the state to defend it's police officers with whatever means at thier disposal, so allowing them to torture or become vigilantees would mean complete chaos

I believe humans are basically good, but also basically sheepish. I was at a talk last week about human rights in Myanmar and the Burmese speakers didn't have any anger against the military. They said it was '500-1000 bureaucrats who ran the government' who they were mad at. And it is true, all it takes is a few hundred people in control of a government to damage millions of lives.

Once Joseph Stalin died the purges in the USSR stopped. Prison population dropped by 70%. And people still love the guy, even though his single handed leadership ruined so many lives.

Remove the few hundred Nazi officials in charge of germany 70 years ago and history would've been totally different. Remove Joseph Stalin and the USSR changes dramatically.

I have heard that the reason we are sheep is evolutionary, so fighting it may be futile. The social organization where everyone submits has an advantage over the one wehre there is constant rebellion and revolt and infighting. But still, being prone to being sheep combined with a few bad sheep in the lead can really ruin our lives.

I think 180 million people died in the 20th century from governments. Of those, about 130 million were in the USSR, China & Germany. many of the deaths in the USSR & China were directly due to the leadership of Mao & Stalin. Once these guys stepped down the deaths stopped. The deaths in germany were due to a few hundred nazi officials. So there you have it, a handful of people directly kill over 100 million people and the public just go along with it. Mao & Stalin are now two of the biggest heroes on earth.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I believe humans are basically good, but also basically sheepish. I was at a talk last week about human rights in Myanmar and the Burmese speakers didn't have any anger against the military. They said it was '500-1000 bureaucrats who ran the government' who they were mad at. And it is true, all it takes is a few hundred people in control of a government to damage millions of lives.

Once Joseph Stalin died the purges in the USSR stopped. Prison population dropped by 70%. And people still love the guy, even though his single handed leadership ruined so many lives.

Remove the few hundred Nazi officials in charge of germany 70 years ago and history would've been totally different. Remove Joseph Stalin and the USSR changes dramatically.

I have heard that the reason we are sheep is evolutionary, so fighting it may be futile. The social organization where everyone submits has an advantage over the one wehre there is constant rebellion and revolt and infighting. But still, being prone to being sheep combined with a few bad sheep in the lead can really ruin our lives.

I think 180 million people died in the 20th century from governments. Of those, about 130 million were in the USSR, China & Germany. many of the deaths in the USSR & China were directly due to the leadership of Mao & Stalin. Once these guys stepped down the deaths stopped. The deaths in germany were due to a few hundred nazi officials. So there you have it, a handful of people directly kill over 100 million people and the public just go along with it. Mao & Stalin are now two of the biggest heroes on earth.

Is it merely coincidence that they were both communists? I wonder if Hitler were instead a communist, maybe he'd have also been a hero. There probably wouldn't have been a Holocaust, so that would've certainly helped his bid.

 

[Lao Tzu]

Is it merely coincidence that they were both communists? I wonder if Hitler were instead a communist, maybe he'd have also been a hero. There probably wouldn't have been a Holocaust, so that would've certainly helped his bid.

Hitler isn't a hero because he lost ww2. Had he won I'm sure he'd be considered a hero. Mao & stalin are heroes because they had so much power that they could control the information people had access to, and nobody had access to anything that made them look bad.

Christianity & Islam are only considered to be true because its followers were better at forcibly converting people a thousand years ago. Had some other religion been better at military conquest that faith would be the one true faith.

 

[H_T_]

this thread keeps me thinking about Animal Mother (Adam Baldwin) from Full Metal Jacket....

 

[test boy ii]

Hitler isn't a hero because he lost ww2. Had he won I'm sure he'd be considered a hero. Mao & stalin are heroes because they had so much power that they could control the information people had access to, and nobody had access to anything that made them look bad.

Christianity & Islam are only considered to be true because its followers were better at forcibly converting people a thousand years ago. Had some other religion been better at military conquest that faith would be the one true faith.

Interesting.

Has there been a successful society without religion?

Modern Europe is not very religious. They are doing OK as far as I know.

Stalin tried to purge religion I believe. Russia has not benefitted from that.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Hitler isn't a hero because he lost ww2. Had he won I'm sure he'd be considered a hero. Mao & stalin are heroes because they had so much power that they could control the information people had access to, and nobody had access to anything that made them look bad.

Christianity & Islam are only considered to be true because its followers were better at forcibly converting people a thousand years ago. Had some other religion been better at military conquest that faith would be the one true faith.

Good points.
Also if he was a communist there likely wouldn't have been a WW2. His stance against it sealed his fate. We can only speculate if national socialism would've eventually become as wide-spread as communism was.

 

[Subzeero]

It's a state of mind.

strongly disagree. Freedom is no mind!

 

[gjohnson5]

I will agree with this is one can live without temptation and one does not define themself on his peronal monetary worth...

This is just extremely rare in a Capitalist society like America

It's a state of mind.

 

[H_T_]

I will agree with this is one can live without temptation and one does not define themself on his peronal monetary worth...

This is just extremely rare in a Capitalist society like America

typically, when you see someone riding a bike, the first thought is, "that mutherfucker can't afford a car..."

 

[gjohnson5]

It's even more ingrained then that. When you see a homeless person on the street do most of you give money to that person???

Probably Not
The first thing you think is , "get a job"

when hurricane Katrina hit and people were asking for assistance , what was the first thing the nation said??

"Ask not what your country can do for but , but what you can do for your country" Right??


If your town gets hit by a hurricane and you do not have the finances to leave , what does that say about freedom?

typically, when you see someone riding a bike, the first thought is, "that mutherfucker can't afford a car..."

 

[H_T_]

It's even more ingrained then that. When you see a homeless person on the street do most of you give money to that person???

Probably Not
The first thing you think is , "get a job"

when hurricane Katrina hit and people were asking for assistance , what was the first thing the nation said??

"Ask not what your country can do for but , but what you can do for your country" Right??


If your town gets hit by a hurricane and you do not have the finances to leave , what does that say about freedom?

that's much of my point. someone the other day mentioned how bad they felt cuz they saw someone walking in the cold. wtf? maybe he's exercising? or being smart and not wasting gas. it shows how much people put on appearances and possessions....

 

[test boy ii]

typically, when you see someone riding a bike, the first thought is, "that mutherfucker can't afford a car..."

I tend to think they are into fitness.

poorly dressed pedestrains on Broadway howevr..........

 

[H_T_]

I tend to think they are into fitness.

poorly dressed pedestrains on Broadway howevr..........

that's showmanship, my man.....

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

that's much of my point. someone the other day mentioned how bad they felt cuz they saw someone walking in the cold. wtf? maybe he's exercising? or being smart and not wasting gas. it shows how much people put on appearances and possessions....

It's people like this that make the rest of society weaker.

 

[H_T_]

It's people like this that make the rest of society weaker.

i feel bad for them assuming something because they're not as fucking empathic as they'd like to believe....

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

i feel bad for them assuming something because they're not as fucking empathic as they'd like to believe....

Yeah they're hypocrites. Hypocrites deserve a push down the stairs or something.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. --Kris Kristofferson

As someone who has been stripped of nearly everything (even been threatened with incarceration) I can honestly say that I agree with this statement.

I mean, it is VERY liberating when you have nothing left to lose. At first it is terrifying. Then after you realize that the sun will continue to rise you become brazen and have the balls suddenly to do whatever it is that pleases you. If you are a good person. You will do good things. If you are a person that has more evil in you than good (We are all of us a combination of both) then you will do evil.

 

[H_T_]

Yeah they're hypocrites. Hypocrites deserve a push down the stairs or something.

and on the other hand, does anyone offer a ride to the freezing bum? where will you take them? home? it's very complicated.....

 

[Bikini Mod]

How many peeps on this thread have actually been homeless?

Just curious.

 

[gjohnson5]

let's not get it twisted.

The point was do you GIVE money to homeless people , not stand outside asking for money when you are homeless

How many peeps on this thread have actually been homeless?

Just curious.

 

[krishna]

How many peeps on this thread have actually been homeless?

Just curious.

I've been out on the streets before. Teaches you to live in the moment. Not knowing when you're gonna eat, or where you're gonna sleep kinda forces you to look at what's right in front of you each moment.

 

[H_T_]

I've been out on the streets before. Teaches you to live in the moment. Not knowing when you're gonna eat, or where you're gonna sleep kinda forces you to look at what's right in front of you each moment.

lol, what do you mean? i knew what i was gonna eat. nothing. where was i gonna sleep? on the ground. when you're down, there is only one direction to go, and that's up.

 

[gjohnson5]

I apologize and I am sorry to be reading this. You are a smart guy and resourceful based on your posts that I have read.
You're a young guy as well , so where was your family in all that?

This is the question I always ask myself when I see a homeless person

Anyway the main reason I went into computers instead my first love is $$$. I chose to do what will make a living for myself instead trying to rough it out doing what I love but that which noone cares about

I've been out on the streets before. Teaches you to live in the moment. Not knowing when you're gonna eat, or where you're gonna sleep kinda forces you to look at what's right in front of you each moment.

 

[Subzeero]

lol, what do you mean? i knew what i was gonna eat. nothing. where was i gonna sleep? on the ground. when you're down, there is only one direction to go, and that's up.

Living in the moment means that you are fearless. You don't depend on the experience of the past ( you are innocent) and the future doesn't bother you either.

You knew that you had nothing to eat, and ground to sleep on etc, but inspite of all that, when all that becomes customary, and you are not depressed about it anymore, you are not scared, you will find joy in some way or another. Inspite the fact that you are so destitude.

Thus you have no alternative but to live in the moment, because only the moment will provide joy. The past was horrible, and there is no certainty in the future, future is no source of comfort. Only the present remains.

Be it with drugs, or just someone handing out some food to you, you will be immensely joyful. Even more joyfull than the people living in big houses. Sometimes you even pity them.

 

[krishna]

Living in the moment means that you are fearless. You don't depend on the experience of the past ( you are innocent) and the future doesn't bother you either.

You knew that you had nothing to eat, and ground to sleep on etc, but inspite of all that, when all that becomes customary, and you are not depressed about it anymore, you are not scared, you will find joy in some way or another. Inspite the fact that you are so destitude.

Thus you have no alternative but to live in the moment, because only the moment will provide joy. The past was horrible, and there is no certainty in the future, future is no source of comfort. Only the present remains.

Be it with drugs, or just someone handing out some food to you, you will be immensely joyful. Even more joyfull than the people living in big houses. Sometimes you even pity them.

Perfect! And I didn't give into the "nothing to eat" mentality. The strong will hustle and find a way to eat. The weak give up and lie in the streets.

 

[H_T_]

Living in the moment means that you are fearless. You don't depend on the experience of the past ( you are innocent) and the future doesn't bother you either.

You knew that you had nothing to eat, and ground to sleep on etc, but inspite of all that, when all that becomes customary, and you are not depressed about it anymore, you are not scared, you will find joy in some way or another. Inspite the fact that you are so destitude.

Thus you have no alternative but to live in the moment, because only the moment will provide joy. The past was horrible, and there is no certainty in the future, future is no source of comfort. Only the present remains.

Be it with drugs, or just someone handing out some food to you, you will be immensely joyful. Even more joyfull than the people living in big houses. Sometimes you even pity them.

i dunno, but no food, no shelter fucking sucks. it didn't enrich me one fucking bit.

 

[Subzeero]

i dunno, but no food, no shelter fucking sucks. it didn't enrich me one fucking bit.

just elaborating on krishna's statement.

In destitute, the present is screaming at you.

 

[Lao Tzu]

How many peeps on this thread have actually been homeless?

Just curious.

I was for a week. It sucked.

 

[test boy ii]

I was for a week. It sucked.

Backpackers are homeless.

I've been homeless for weeks.

 

[chazk]

To me it means having no laws. Plain and simple. Of course, this would mean chaos, so in order to have true freedom, we must have chaos.

Rock on, brother (or sister); rock on.

now why did you have to tell George bush that was freedom just look at what its done to iraq

 

[chazk]

How many peeps on this thread have actually been homeless?

Just curious.

At age 17 I loaded up all my clothes with a alarm clock. One day I took a drive and never went home .Lived in my car for 2 months it was tough at age 17. I rented a storage locker for 30$ a month then moved into that .I tapped into the light in the roof and ran a extension cord off it.Then everyweek people would move out of storage lockers and leave good stuff behind .I got a bed ,end table ,lamp.Then one day hit the jackpot a tv .It worked perfect it was just out dated looking so they threw it away.

I refused to be on the street I knew that drugs ,drinking and crime would do me in.

I slept in the unit then every morning woke up around 8 am drove down the street to the public truck stop /rest area and took a shower and shaved .then went to work , I did clothes once a week

Some times I look back at my life and am thankful even more for the stuff I have now.A nice home ,nice cars,two dogs and a wonderful fiance. It gets me upset when she wants a bigger house and a newer car (makes me wonder if she can ever be happy and not desire what she does not have but be happy with what we already have).I hate to watch her throw away food half eatin.She has never been homless or slept on the floor of a storage unit if she did I think she would see the world a little bit def then she does now.

Not all homless people want to be homless.Many were abused told by their fathers or mothers they were usless .Many homless women were in a abusive relationship where they got insulted on a daily bases by a person that broke down their self esteem to the point where they do not want to live anymore or feel they cant do any better.Some are mentally challanged.
Some people live pay check to paycheck to the point if they get laid off or lost their job they would lose the house the cars and eventually the will to live or rebuild you would be surprised how fast someone can lose it all

I do give to the homless but its not money .I give to them by getting involved with the local salvation army food drive and sunday breakfast.
I talk with a homless man named ron.His wife died 13 yrs ago he says he is in linger waiting to die so he can eventually see her once more to reunite for eternity.He carries pictures of her with him its the only thing he hangs onto.
Most have had something tramadic happen to them and the end result is depression and anti social behavior becuase havinga house would mean they were normal and they just cant handle a normal life any longer due ot the breakdown.

 

[Bikini Mod]

FINALLY an intelligent man appears.....

I too have been homeless at 35 - for the reasons you cited. Went from having a nice little home, a business and 4 children to NOTHING and NO ONE, sick, alone and illegal in a country where I could not speak the primary language.

And so has my husband at age 16 circumstances similar to yours.

Your post was quite succint and touching. I wish that it could be "stickied" somehow.

Happiness is having what you want, but rather in wanting what you have.

And the others two who shared that they were homeless (not the bobos who talked of back-packing pleasure trips ) are also quite helpfull in expressing how the stress of not knowing where you will sleep at night or if you will have food changes you for life. Trying to explain this to someone who has never experienced it is very difficult.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

FINALLY an intelligent man appears.....

I too have been homeless at 35 - for the reasons you cited. Went from having a nice little home, a business and 4 children to NOTHING and NO ONE, sick, alone and illegal in a country where I could not speak the primary language.

And so has my husband at age 16 circumstances similar to yours.

Your post was quite succint and touching. I wish that it could be "stickied" somehow.

Happiness is having what you want, but rather in wanting what you have.

And the others two who shared that they were homeless (not the bobos who talked of back-packing pleasure trips ) are also quite helpfull in expressing how the stress of not knowing where you will sleep at night or if you will have food changes you for life. Trying to explain this to someone who has never experienced it is very difficult.

Most people have no choice when they become homeless. From 7 figure execs to hourly workers. Takes just one day and people can go from posh to under a bridge.

I finally have read the most intelligent and compassionate post on this forum.
Kudos to chazk!!!!!

 

[justinjones1963]

Freedom is a bottle of vodka and the ability to swing a good donkey punch.

 

[krishna]

FINALLY an intelligent man appears.....

I too have been homeless at 35 - for the reasons you cited. Went from having a nice little home, a business and 4 children to NOTHING and NO ONE, sick, alone and illegal in a country where I could not speak the primary language.

And so has my husband at age 16 circumstances similar to yours.

Your post was quite succint and touching. I wish that it could be "stickied" somehow.

Happiness is having what you want, but rather in wanting what you have.

And the others two who shared that they were homeless (not the bobos who talked of back-packing pleasure trips ) are also quite helpfull in expressing how the stress of not knowing where you will sleep at night or if you will have food changes you for life. Trying to explain this to someone who has never experienced it is very difficult.

Why is he intelligent, because you say so? I fought my way out of starvation and homelessness. I did take to drugs and crime and did whatever I could to eat and find somewhere to sleep. I made it out just like the guy who avoided drugs and crime. People take different paths, but if their heart is in the right place, the paths will end up going to the same place. I wasn't an evil person, I just did what I could to survive. I was like robin hood - hustling money from the rich so that me and my friends could survive. I know now that it's not what I should be doing with my life, but it got me through some tough times with some wild memories too. Don't regret a thing.

 

[Gambino]

On a side note- I for one have more respect for the person who tries to outrun the cops when being chased for a speeding violation instead of merely pulling over like society's beaten dog.

Rock on, brother (or sister); rock on.

would you have respect for this alluder if his freedom to run from the police killed a family member in a car accident?
you freedom stops at the bridge of my nose

 

[milo hobgoblin]

freedom

the freedom to pursue any action as long as it cause no harm to another.

 

[javaguru]

To me it means having no laws. Plain and simple. Of course, this would mean chaos, so in order to have true freedom, we must have chaos. The only variable would be an individual's moral character. However, I'm sure a lack thereof could easily be dealt with in a lawless world.

This is my way of saying there are too many laws and regulations these days.

On a side note- I for one have more respect for the person who tries to outrun the cops when being chased for a speeding violation instead of merely pulling over like society's beaten dog.

Rock on, brother (or sister); rock on.

My definition of Freedom is to be able to do as you please as long as it doesn't harm or seriously enndanger someone else. The reason felony murder exists as a statute is the fact individuals don't value the lives of others in the commission of their crimes.