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The State of Competitive Bodybuilding
The Most Shocking
Bodybuilding Interview Ever
(IRONMAN, February '97)
by Steve Holman
Warning: This is an extremely controversial interview. To be honest, we
almost decided not to print it; however, because IRONMAN has always been an
open forum, going to great lengths to tell the whole truth, we felt it was
our responsibility to the sport and to you, the reader, to allow this
athlete to speak his mind. It took a lot of courage for this man to stand
up and tell it like it is, and we are keeping him anonymous to protect his
status as a professional bodybuilder. We¹re inserting [blanks] in place of
names to help protect his identity‹no process of elimination to narrow down
the field‹and also in place of drug names, so drug-using bodybuilders don¹t
get any inadvertent ³help² with their drug programs. Keep in mind that we
paid this man nothing because we feel money can only corrupt the
information. When people are paid a high sum, they feel as if they have to
give the interviewer his or her money¹s worth, and that can result in
exaggeration. As you read this, remember that this athlete came to us
because, like us, he loves bodybuilding and wants to see it prosper, not
die a painful drug-induced death. Fasten your seatbelts. This dose of
reality is going to open your eyes like nothing ever printed in this or any
other bodybuilding magazine.
IM: You want to get some things off your chest. You have the bodybuilding
world's ear. What is it you want to talk about?
BB: Well, you know, most of the things nobody wants to talk about. I want
to let everybody know how it really is.
IM: How it is with the drugs?
BB: Damn right!
IM: You're having to take too many, correct?
BB: Way too many, man.
IM: What kind of drug bill are we talking about?
BB: Well, growth hormone alone costs you $30,000 a year.
IM: Good lord!
BB: And steroids, that's not a really big problem. I use a lot, but you can
get it cheap. Mostly you gotta pay people to tell you how to use them. The
growth hormone, IGF-IŠ.
IM: And just the thought of putting all that in your body all at one time -
‹that's gotta take its toll on you mentally too.
BB: Well, I don't mind a little bit, because I do like big arms, big back,
big chest and legs and everything. But when it comes to the point where I'm
as big as I want to get‹ . . .
IM: They tell you that you have to get bigger, right?
BB: Yeah, I don't have a choice. I'm gonna be bigger. Next year you're
going to see me 24 pounds heavier. You know it¹s the whole mind-set that
you gotta get bigger and sacrifice your shape. I may not like the way my
back looks. I mean, I've got improvements to make, obviously. But those
things come with time. Maturing into a physique is nice, but they want a
monster.
IM: Do you think it can ever stop? I mean, if people keep getting bigger,
what's going to happen to the sport?
BB: Well, the sport is already‹ . . .
IM: Out of control?
BB: Yeah. It's an underground sport. It's [a cult that] likes to see the
freaky mass monsters.... They really don't care. They just say, Whatever it
takes to do that, that's what we want to see. But I think a lot of people
want to see something that's somewhat attainable.
IM: Do you think the size of the competitors has caused the people to be a
little blasé about it all? Like: Well, they're just going to have to do
what it takes. We don't care; if they die, they die. We want to see 'em
bigger, and we want to see 'em better.
BB: That¹s right. They want us to do it, and the judges want to see
something bigger. In order for us to make a living and live our dreams, we
gotta do whatever it takes, you know? You got guys like [blank, a
bodybuilding columnist for another magazine] saying, "Well, nobody's making
you." I guess nobody is, but a lot of us [have] this dream of being the
best of the built.
IM: Absolutely. And it's a performance thing too. It's gratifying to be on
stage. What do you think is a solution here? Do you think there is one at
this point?
BB: Well, it's hard to say. Once you've seen extreme physique development,
how are you going to train the eye of the audience to accept something
less? You can practically see [some of these guys'] lungs when they do rear
lat spreads. You just gotta accept something less. By the way, before I go
on, let me tell you right now, there's a lot of things in your hands.
IM: I understand. Your identity is completely confidential, I promise you
that. We'll just say you're a top pro. That's all.
BB: Right. Okay. Ask anything.
IM: Do you think part of the solution is for the judges to start rewarding
a more aesthetic physique?
BB: That would be the only way the sport would go into a positive
direction. Like Bob Paris.Š
IM: Right, if Bob Paris came back. I think the problem is you have to have
an eye for that type of physique, and the general public and most
bodybuilding fans don't have it, so they look at size as the top criterion
for victory.
BB: I think there¹s a certain presence, an aura to a really complete
physique like Lee Labrada's, rather than someone who's just grotesque.
IM: Getting back to the whole drug thing, do you have to stay on the drugs
year-round?
BB: Yes. I haven't gone off at all for years.
IM: You have to inject, what, three to four times a week?
BB: Every day.
IM: Every day you have to inject something into your body?
BB: Yeah. Every day. Let me go over my stack. [He rattles off a list of
injectibles and orals that's so long, my jaw hits the desk.]
IM: This is just off-season?
BB: Yeah. And of course I like to use [blank] that blocks estrogen and also
increases testosterone levels.
Also [blank] four times a day in the off-season to allow me to eat more
calories. I also take half a tablet of [blank], which works better
synergistically with growth hormone. Six weeks or so out I start taking
some [blank] to stop some of the gyno. I did have to have it removed a few
years back, but it kind of flares up now and then. And I use [blank] to
take some of the water out. And [every so often] I switch from the heavy
androgens to the lighter anabolics, like [blank and blank], 300 milligrams
every other day. Let's see, [blank], 200 milligrams a day. That helps you
harden up your physique, increase your vascularity. I take some [blank],
which helps me harden, and I keep my insulin the same and my growth hormone
the same.
IM: Whew! Quite a laundry list!
BB: Well, you know there's also many other things, like [blank], which
keeps my gonadal system up and [blank] to boost my testosteone to make sure
I don't atrophy down there. Also, anti-estrogens and other compound factors
to combat the many side effects that I get.
IM: Have you ever noticed any serious health problems that you think are
related to this?
BB: I piss a lot of blood come contest time.
IM: But in the off-season you feel pretty decent, even though you're taking
all that stuff?
BB: Well, recently I started getting blood tests every two months.
IM: How about cholesterol count, blood pressure and so forth? All that's
pretty normal?
BB: No, everything is high. My blood pressure gets really high, and that
must be watched, especially when I take stimulants.
IM: It sounds as if you're on pins and needles a lot of the time.
BB: If you gotta do it, you got no choice. You want to make a living in
this sport, that¹s what you gotta do.
IM: Race cars keep going faster and faster and there are more crashes, but
the drivers keep doing it, right? What do you think your total drug bill is
for the year?
BB: About $60,000, but it's going to be higher next year. Just this last
year I had to add [blank]. Right now it's the number-one bodybuilding
"supplement" in the competition ring. All these guys you see getting
bigger, it's that. No question. Two years ago . . . I don't want to take
nothing from [blank], really nice guy, nice family man, but physiquewise he
was flat as a pancake. Now he's bigger, 20 to 30 pounds heavier. It's all
[from this stuff]. [Blank] is heavy on it. Of course, we all are. I'm
scared shitless.
IM: Are you guys pretty frank with each other about what you're taking?
BB: Only with friends. I mean, I get questions in the gym all the time, and
I tell them I take [a popular protein powder]! Yeah, we talk.
IM: You don't feel you need to keep secrets and maintain an edge?
BB: There are no secrets. There's one guy out there - I won't mention his
name‹ - he's a top pro who helps out the other pros with their [blank]
'cause we don't know how to do it, so we go to him. He helps us out.
IM: I know the old-timers say there's no camaraderie in the sport anymore.
BB: Oh, there's some. But the only thing we talk about is‹ . . .
IM: Drugs and training.
BB: We don't talk about training, because most of the guys‹ . . .
IM: All train alike?
BB: Well, yeah. We don't train that hard. [Most of the guys] are half
asleep when they [work out].
IM: So it's mostly just the drugs. The top guys really don't have an
inkling how to train without them. Do you think most of the top 10 guys are
taking pretty much the same thing then?
BB: Yeah, they're all jabbing themselves just as much, but I think
[winning] has to do with your estrogen levels and your normal testosterone
levels, your receptor abilities and things like that. You know, it's a
genetic thing. Some people are more susceptible to steroids. Five
milligrams might hit me differently than it might hit you.
IM: I asked you this earlier, and I know you said you think that it's just
all part of the game, but aren't you afraid that this will catch up with
you later in life?
BB: I am. I don't think I'll be able to have children. My doctor told me my
sperm count is way too low. And my thyroid [is blown out].
IM: Do you feel that the sport indirectly promotes the whole drug thing?
BB: Yeah, but then you have people saying that nobody makes us. But this is
our childhood dream. This is something we want to do, and for the most part
we don't have other jobs.
IM: Do you think this drug test they had at the Olympia was a step in the
right direction?
BB: It was a step in the right direction for the sport and probably a step
in the wrong direction for people's careers because I know four people who
[should have] tested positive. But we can beat the drug tests. Next year if
they want to get diuretics, that's fine. We'll use plasmics. It's fairly
simple. There's always exotic steroidsŠ. "Let's change some molecule on the
17th position, and it can't be detected." [Blank] still can't be detected.
IM: This is the most eye-opening interview I've ever had. I appreciate your
opening up to me.
BB: You're welcome. It could be because I'm very low on carbohydrates.
IM: And you're pissed off.
BB: Yeah, you know the diuretic scene is very difficult. I'm back there
with my I.V. bag and heart monitor. It's just the situation. You take a
person and put him into a lab in a freak science experiment. Then you throw
him on stage, and you take him off to pump blood back into him. Is that a
sport? The training is pretty much beaten to death. In fact, your magazine
for the natural athletes is what I recommend. Professional bodybuilding [is
about] drugs. Of course, there's abuse in every professional sport‹ -
boxing, basketball, baseball, football.
IM: How long do you think you can keep at it? I mean at this pace?
BB: Well I've been on forŠ - oh God.Š I'll tell you right now, if anybody's
going to die next, it's going to be [blank]. He's too old to be messing
with [junk] like that. His pancreas I don't think is too good. There's a
look that you get. I can see it. [Blank, a top pro] is very ill. I
understand what he wants to do for the sport, and he can do some great
things, but he's dying and every contest he loses is a blow to him. He's
killing himself literally because he wants to make this sport better.
Eventually he's either going to win the contest or he's going to die.
IM: He's really playing Russian roulette?
BB: Yeah, he was using [blank] before any of us. I prefer his look back [a
few years]. He wasn't big but aesthetic‹a pleasing physique. Something a
kid would look at and say, Hey, I would like to look like that. Now he
should be concentrating more on certain bodyparts, but instead his body is
getting bigger, his stomach, his head, everything.
IM: It's a scary look. Yes, the body's getting bigger, but all the internal
organs are getting large, bloated.
BB: They should have a contest for the biggest growth-hormone gut.
IM: Got anything else you want to get off your chest?
BB: Yeah, you know I have a hard time thinking because of all the things
I'm on now. But they don't talk about how much drug [abuse] there is. And
it's not just the steroids. We've got to use speed and stuff like that. We
have to use a lot of diuretics, things that aren't too healthy, and they
don't feel good. Lots of guys are using cocaine‹ - not just because they
like it, but it helps you get cut up, it helps you not eat. With drugs
there's use and abuse. But at our level I feel we're getting exploited, you
know? They pump us full of drugs . . . or we pump ourselves full of drugs
to make ourselves look like freaks, and we get on stage and that's our job.
But we don't get paid hardly anything. The guy who uses our pictures, the
supplement companies, make all the money, and they don't give us nothing.
If it wasn't for our picture, they wouldn't have nothing to promote.
IM: Yeah, and you gotta keep risking your life to try to make a few bucks
winning a show.
BB: I'll tell you what: [Some] of the guys, like [blank], are gay
prostitutes.
IM: Think so?
BB: I know so. That¹s how they can afford all those drugs. That's definite.
Of course [certain people in] the gay community are going to walk up and
say, Hey, we'll give you so much to have sex. That's just like a straight
guy walking up to Cindy Crawford and saying it. But for us it's a way to
make a good $10,000 a month. It helps with our drug bill and sometimes they
just give us drugs for the act.
IM: When you think about it, you guys can't make much money.
BB: There's not much money in the contracts. Especially with the drugs, the
living, the food. You have to sacrifice your‹ . . .
IM: Integrity?
BB: Yeah, your integrity, your pride. It's all a sacrifice. The drugs, the
prostitution. These guys don't want to do that. They have to look in the
mirror. They know they're sacrificing what makes them a man. And all this
crap you see about carb loading and sodium. Bunch of shit.
IM: So you don't think they actually do sodium loading? It's all just
drugs?
BB: Precontest every once in a while you catch a guy in McDonald's or
eating pizza. You can do that kind of thing‹ . . . of course, in
moderation.
IM: But you¹re a pretty heavy supplement user?
BB: I don't use supplements at all! No vitamins, nothing.
IM: You don't think that vitamins and minerals would help protect you
somewhat from all the drugs?
BB: Yeah, but‹ . . .
IM: You've got put your money where it's going to be the most effective,
right? On drugs.
BB: Right. I'd like to see a $1 million prize [for a bodybuilding contest].
That's something else that would help the sport. If there's a decent amount
of money in there, it would be something people would watch. Unfortunately,
I think people want to see the freaks at this point. Really big mothers up
there. It's like you said, you really can't go backwards. I guess you have
to let [it] self-destruct and see what happens.
IM: I don't want to see any of you guys die.
BB: We will. I guarantee you. You're going to see lots of guys dying in the
next few years.
IM: I hope the drug test is a step in the right direction, and maybe
they'll start judging for more aesthetic physiques. If they did backtrack
to more of the Bob Paris look, I think it would help.
BB: Is that ever going to happen?
IM: How much longer do you think you're going to go on with it?
BB: Till I reach my goal. Or it beats me.
IM: Have you ever experienced any kind of depression or rage?
BB: Oh, yeah. Beaten many people - Šgot out of hand. I feel bad about that.
IM: Having all that coursing through your system has to do something to you
mentally.
BB: Well, besides that, you feel a lump here, and you feel scared, and you
don't know what's going on.
IM: Do you get checked by a doctor regularly?
BB: I get the blood tests, and he reads it. It's foreign to me. I just ask
how much longer do I have to live, what am I doing wrong?
IM: But he doesn't do any MRIs on you? It's just basically a blood test?
BB: No. He checks my thyroid, sperm count. Of course, I'm never going to be
able to have children.
IM: Perhaps some of this will reverse itself once you‹ . . .
BB: No, I have irreversible damage.
IM: That's really sad.
BB: I think it happened last year. When I upped everything, I shut my
thyroid down. And if I go off the [blank], I'm going to get fat. I'm going
to stay on the stuff permanently. If I go off, I'm going to rebound. None
of these guys go off. It's just nonstop. These guys do what it takes. Don't
you see that they're exploiting us? They're selling us. They're pumping us
up, putting us on stage, throwing us off, and they're collecting the money.
And we¹re back there rolling around in death. In the process they will make
money. Sell ourselves. Sell our souls, and we don't get much. And even if
you take the drugs, it's no guarantee you¹re going to win. You have to have
something going on there. But [the people who run this sport] say, Keep it
going, keep it going. And watch their wallets getting bigger. They don't
care.
IM: But you did say looking like that helps you with women?
BB: That makes it a little worthwhile, but I never had any problem with the
bitches. I got plenty before. Now I'm bigger, so I get a lot more. But you
also get the bad - ‹that includes harassment from the homos. I want to say
for the guys who want to take their physiques to a [higher level], weight
training, eating right and exercising will help you achieve your goals.
What's big to you may be small compared to a pro, but like I said, Lee
Labrada will look huge to a lot of guys. So you can attain your goals, get
bigger, get better with the women, look good. You may not win Mr. Olympia,
but you can still have something to be proud of [without the drugs].
[Competitive bodybuilding, for the most part] is all chemistry. It's
chemical warfare. Andreas Munzer had something we never had. All those
striations and [blank] drugs, but look what it did to him. He died by the
sword. And [blank] pocketed everything Andreas ever did. We have to deal
with the rat race and the counterfeit steroids. All these guys saying,
Yeah, I fell down and broke my arm. That's not true. That's the dealer
breaking their arms because they didn't pay for their shipment of growth
hormone.
IM: You say you go to Mexico for a lot of this stuff?
BB: Yeah, I go to Mexico. The European tour is where most of us get our
drugs. [Switches subjects again] You don't need drug testing. Just a Lee
Labrada. It didn't take a ton [of drugs] to do that. Pick that, and there
you go. All the other guys will have to trim down to look like that. IM: Go
for the aesthetic physique. That¹s one of the big steps they have to take.
By the way, isn¹t there a drug that you can inject directly into the muscle
to blow it up?
BB: Oh, yeah, [blank]. Use that for my peak on my biceps. [Blank] uses it
everywhere - ‹80 to 100 shots. Tell you right now it hurts like hell. But
it's hard to predict. It may look good five days before the show, then it
lumps out and you¹ll get guys with the real lumpy, weird-looking biceps.
This whole sport is about being a bitch. You gotta be a bitch to pay your
bills. You gotta be a bitch to win. That's what it's all about. Total
exploitation. I'd like the athletes to make a little more money. All these
magazines talk about how much Michael Jordan and Mike Tyson make. They
don't talk about how much we make, 'cause it's disgraceful. What am I going
to do? Sell pictures of myself?
IM: Do a lot of the guys sell drugs on the side?
BB: Oh, yeah. I've done that myself. Now it's a lot harder.
IM: So what else? Is there¹s anything you can think of that you¹re really
pissed off about.
BB: Well, I'm pissed off that we have to use this amount of drugs. I was
happier with my physique last year. [They want us] in the 270-pound range.
IM: Don't you think the magazines are a little at fault too?
BB: Yeah, they are. They don't print nothing about the drug regimen.
They're selling fake dreams to kids: Take this protein powder, and you're
going to look like that. And it ain't true. Drugs play a predominant role,
and most of the [champions'] training articles lead to overtraining. You
know that. And unless you're on steroids, you're going to end up unhappy
and lose your dream.
IM: I guess it's a vicious cycle.
BB: The insulin's very dangerous. I'm feeling it right now. I'm getting
real tired, headaches, weakness. I breathe hard. Not a good drug to take.
IM: What's the danger with the insulin? It's a hormone, so what's the big
problem?
BB: You can die right there. I mean, there isn't one of us who hasn't been
in shock. You really don't know.
IM: Have you ever had to go to the hospital because of it?
BB: I've been in the hospital a few times, yeah. They had to use half a bag
of glucose intravenously to keep me going. I didn't have any glucose in my
liver, because I did too much insulin. My brain was starved, and I was
beginning to fall asleep, go into a coma. It's the most painful feeling
you'll ever feel. During that time your mind's going nuts. What am I
getting out of all this? A cover picture? That won't pay the bills. Maybe
they should start giving back to the athletes instead of taking. If they're
gonna make it where we have to be bigger, we should get something out of
it. Golfers make more money than we do. I saw how much they make at these
rodeos too. They collect $50,000 for riding some damn bull. They don't have
to take drugs to do that.
IM: The danger's there for eight seconds, then they're out of there. You
guys have danger all year long.
BB: Yeah it's dangerous.
IM: To say the least.
The Most Shocking
Bodybuilding Interview Ever
(IRONMAN, February '97)
by Steve Holman
Warning: This is an extremely controversial interview. To be honest, we
almost decided not to print it; however, because IRONMAN has always been an
open forum, going to great lengths to tell the whole truth, we felt it was
our responsibility to the sport and to you, the reader, to allow this
athlete to speak his mind. It took a lot of courage for this man to stand
up and tell it like it is, and we are keeping him anonymous to protect his
status as a professional bodybuilder. We¹re inserting [blanks] in place of
names to help protect his identity‹no process of elimination to narrow down
the field‹and also in place of drug names, so drug-using bodybuilders don¹t
get any inadvertent ³help² with their drug programs. Keep in mind that we
paid this man nothing because we feel money can only corrupt the
information. When people are paid a high sum, they feel as if they have to
give the interviewer his or her money¹s worth, and that can result in
exaggeration. As you read this, remember that this athlete came to us
because, like us, he loves bodybuilding and wants to see it prosper, not
die a painful drug-induced death. Fasten your seatbelts. This dose of
reality is going to open your eyes like nothing ever printed in this or any
other bodybuilding magazine.
IM: You want to get some things off your chest. You have the bodybuilding
world's ear. What is it you want to talk about?
BB: Well, you know, most of the things nobody wants to talk about. I want
to let everybody know how it really is.
IM: How it is with the drugs?
BB: Damn right!
IM: You're having to take too many, correct?
BB: Way too many, man.
IM: What kind of drug bill are we talking about?
BB: Well, growth hormone alone costs you $30,000 a year.
IM: Good lord!
BB: And steroids, that's not a really big problem. I use a lot, but you can
get it cheap. Mostly you gotta pay people to tell you how to use them. The
growth hormone, IGF-IŠ.
IM: And just the thought of putting all that in your body all at one time -
‹that's gotta take its toll on you mentally too.
BB: Well, I don't mind a little bit, because I do like big arms, big back,
big chest and legs and everything. But when it comes to the point where I'm
as big as I want to get‹ . . .
IM: They tell you that you have to get bigger, right?
BB: Yeah, I don't have a choice. I'm gonna be bigger. Next year you're
going to see me 24 pounds heavier. You know it¹s the whole mind-set that
you gotta get bigger and sacrifice your shape. I may not like the way my
back looks. I mean, I've got improvements to make, obviously. But those
things come with time. Maturing into a physique is nice, but they want a
monster.
IM: Do you think it can ever stop? I mean, if people keep getting bigger,
what's going to happen to the sport?
BB: Well, the sport is already‹ . . .
IM: Out of control?
BB: Yeah. It's an underground sport. It's [a cult that] likes to see the
freaky mass monsters.... They really don't care. They just say, Whatever it
takes to do that, that's what we want to see. But I think a lot of people
want to see something that's somewhat attainable.
IM: Do you think the size of the competitors has caused the people to be a
little blasé about it all? Like: Well, they're just going to have to do
what it takes. We don't care; if they die, they die. We want to see 'em
bigger, and we want to see 'em better.
BB: That¹s right. They want us to do it, and the judges want to see
something bigger. In order for us to make a living and live our dreams, we
gotta do whatever it takes, you know? You got guys like [blank, a
bodybuilding columnist for another magazine] saying, "Well, nobody's making
you." I guess nobody is, but a lot of us [have] this dream of being the
best of the built.
IM: Absolutely. And it's a performance thing too. It's gratifying to be on
stage. What do you think is a solution here? Do you think there is one at
this point?
BB: Well, it's hard to say. Once you've seen extreme physique development,
how are you going to train the eye of the audience to accept something
less? You can practically see [some of these guys'] lungs when they do rear
lat spreads. You just gotta accept something less. By the way, before I go
on, let me tell you right now, there's a lot of things in your hands.
IM: I understand. Your identity is completely confidential, I promise you
that. We'll just say you're a top pro. That's all.
BB: Right. Okay. Ask anything.
IM: Do you think part of the solution is for the judges to start rewarding
a more aesthetic physique?
BB: That would be the only way the sport would go into a positive
direction. Like Bob Paris.Š
IM: Right, if Bob Paris came back. I think the problem is you have to have
an eye for that type of physique, and the general public and most
bodybuilding fans don't have it, so they look at size as the top criterion
for victory.
BB: I think there¹s a certain presence, an aura to a really complete
physique like Lee Labrada's, rather than someone who's just grotesque.
IM: Getting back to the whole drug thing, do you have to stay on the drugs
year-round?
BB: Yes. I haven't gone off at all for years.
IM: You have to inject, what, three to four times a week?
BB: Every day.
IM: Every day you have to inject something into your body?
BB: Yeah. Every day. Let me go over my stack. [He rattles off a list of
injectibles and orals that's so long, my jaw hits the desk.]
IM: This is just off-season?
BB: Yeah. And of course I like to use [blank] that blocks estrogen and also
increases testosterone levels.
Also [blank] four times a day in the off-season to allow me to eat more
calories. I also take half a tablet of [blank], which works better
synergistically with growth hormone. Six weeks or so out I start taking
some [blank] to stop some of the gyno. I did have to have it removed a few
years back, but it kind of flares up now and then. And I use [blank] to
take some of the water out. And [every so often] I switch from the heavy
androgens to the lighter anabolics, like [blank and blank], 300 milligrams
every other day. Let's see, [blank], 200 milligrams a day. That helps you
harden up your physique, increase your vascularity. I take some [blank],
which helps me harden, and I keep my insulin the same and my growth hormone
the same.
IM: Whew! Quite a laundry list!
BB: Well, you know there's also many other things, like [blank], which
keeps my gonadal system up and [blank] to boost my testosteone to make sure
I don't atrophy down there. Also, anti-estrogens and other compound factors
to combat the many side effects that I get.
IM: Have you ever noticed any serious health problems that you think are
related to this?
BB: I piss a lot of blood come contest time.
IM: But in the off-season you feel pretty decent, even though you're taking
all that stuff?
BB: Well, recently I started getting blood tests every two months.
IM: How about cholesterol count, blood pressure and so forth? All that's
pretty normal?
BB: No, everything is high. My blood pressure gets really high, and that
must be watched, especially when I take stimulants.
IM: It sounds as if you're on pins and needles a lot of the time.
BB: If you gotta do it, you got no choice. You want to make a living in
this sport, that¹s what you gotta do.
IM: Race cars keep going faster and faster and there are more crashes, but
the drivers keep doing it, right? What do you think your total drug bill is
for the year?
BB: About $60,000, but it's going to be higher next year. Just this last
year I had to add [blank]. Right now it's the number-one bodybuilding
"supplement" in the competition ring. All these guys you see getting
bigger, it's that. No question. Two years ago . . . I don't want to take
nothing from [blank], really nice guy, nice family man, but physiquewise he
was flat as a pancake. Now he's bigger, 20 to 30 pounds heavier. It's all
[from this stuff]. [Blank] is heavy on it. Of course, we all are. I'm
scared shitless.
IM: Are you guys pretty frank with each other about what you're taking?
BB: Only with friends. I mean, I get questions in the gym all the time, and
I tell them I take [a popular protein powder]! Yeah, we talk.
IM: You don't feel you need to keep secrets and maintain an edge?
BB: There are no secrets. There's one guy out there - I won't mention his
name‹ - he's a top pro who helps out the other pros with their [blank]
'cause we don't know how to do it, so we go to him. He helps us out.
IM: I know the old-timers say there's no camaraderie in the sport anymore.
BB: Oh, there's some. But the only thing we talk about is‹ . . .
IM: Drugs and training.
BB: We don't talk about training, because most of the guys‹ . . .
IM: All train alike?
BB: Well, yeah. We don't train that hard. [Most of the guys] are half
asleep when they [work out].
IM: So it's mostly just the drugs. The top guys really don't have an
inkling how to train without them. Do you think most of the top 10 guys are
taking pretty much the same thing then?
BB: Yeah, they're all jabbing themselves just as much, but I think
[winning] has to do with your estrogen levels and your normal testosterone
levels, your receptor abilities and things like that. You know, it's a
genetic thing. Some people are more susceptible to steroids. Five
milligrams might hit me differently than it might hit you.
IM: I asked you this earlier, and I know you said you think that it's just
all part of the game, but aren't you afraid that this will catch up with
you later in life?
BB: I am. I don't think I'll be able to have children. My doctor told me my
sperm count is way too low. And my thyroid [is blown out].
IM: Do you feel that the sport indirectly promotes the whole drug thing?
BB: Yeah, but then you have people saying that nobody makes us. But this is
our childhood dream. This is something we want to do, and for the most part
we don't have other jobs.
IM: Do you think this drug test they had at the Olympia was a step in the
right direction?
BB: It was a step in the right direction for the sport and probably a step
in the wrong direction for people's careers because I know four people who
[should have] tested positive. But we can beat the drug tests. Next year if
they want to get diuretics, that's fine. We'll use plasmics. It's fairly
simple. There's always exotic steroidsŠ. "Let's change some molecule on the
17th position, and it can't be detected." [Blank] still can't be detected.
IM: This is the most eye-opening interview I've ever had. I appreciate your
opening up to me.
BB: You're welcome. It could be because I'm very low on carbohydrates.
IM: And you're pissed off.
BB: Yeah, you know the diuretic scene is very difficult. I'm back there
with my I.V. bag and heart monitor. It's just the situation. You take a
person and put him into a lab in a freak science experiment. Then you throw
him on stage, and you take him off to pump blood back into him. Is that a
sport? The training is pretty much beaten to death. In fact, your magazine
for the natural athletes is what I recommend. Professional bodybuilding [is
about] drugs. Of course, there's abuse in every professional sport‹ -
boxing, basketball, baseball, football.
IM: How long do you think you can keep at it? I mean at this pace?
BB: Well I've been on forŠ - oh God.Š I'll tell you right now, if anybody's
going to die next, it's going to be [blank]. He's too old to be messing
with [junk] like that. His pancreas I don't think is too good. There's a
look that you get. I can see it. [Blank, a top pro] is very ill. I
understand what he wants to do for the sport, and he can do some great
things, but he's dying and every contest he loses is a blow to him. He's
killing himself literally because he wants to make this sport better.
Eventually he's either going to win the contest or he's going to die.
IM: He's really playing Russian roulette?
BB: Yeah, he was using [blank] before any of us. I prefer his look back [a
few years]. He wasn't big but aesthetic‹a pleasing physique. Something a
kid would look at and say, Hey, I would like to look like that. Now he
should be concentrating more on certain bodyparts, but instead his body is
getting bigger, his stomach, his head, everything.
IM: It's a scary look. Yes, the body's getting bigger, but all the internal
organs are getting large, bloated.
BB: They should have a contest for the biggest growth-hormone gut.
IM: Got anything else you want to get off your chest?
BB: Yeah, you know I have a hard time thinking because of all the things
I'm on now. But they don't talk about how much drug [abuse] there is. And
it's not just the steroids. We've got to use speed and stuff like that. We
have to use a lot of diuretics, things that aren't too healthy, and they
don't feel good. Lots of guys are using cocaine‹ - not just because they
like it, but it helps you get cut up, it helps you not eat. With drugs
there's use and abuse. But at our level I feel we're getting exploited, you
know? They pump us full of drugs . . . or we pump ourselves full of drugs
to make ourselves look like freaks, and we get on stage and that's our job.
But we don't get paid hardly anything. The guy who uses our pictures, the
supplement companies, make all the money, and they don't give us nothing.
If it wasn't for our picture, they wouldn't have nothing to promote.
IM: Yeah, and you gotta keep risking your life to try to make a few bucks
winning a show.
BB: I'll tell you what: [Some] of the guys, like [blank], are gay
prostitutes.
IM: Think so?
BB: I know so. That¹s how they can afford all those drugs. That's definite.
Of course [certain people in] the gay community are going to walk up and
say, Hey, we'll give you so much to have sex. That's just like a straight
guy walking up to Cindy Crawford and saying it. But for us it's a way to
make a good $10,000 a month. It helps with our drug bill and sometimes they
just give us drugs for the act.
IM: When you think about it, you guys can't make much money.
BB: There's not much money in the contracts. Especially with the drugs, the
living, the food. You have to sacrifice your‹ . . .
IM: Integrity?
BB: Yeah, your integrity, your pride. It's all a sacrifice. The drugs, the
prostitution. These guys don't want to do that. They have to look in the
mirror. They know they're sacrificing what makes them a man. And all this
crap you see about carb loading and sodium. Bunch of shit.
IM: So you don't think they actually do sodium loading? It's all just
drugs?
BB: Precontest every once in a while you catch a guy in McDonald's or
eating pizza. You can do that kind of thing‹ . . . of course, in
moderation.
IM: But you¹re a pretty heavy supplement user?
BB: I don't use supplements at all! No vitamins, nothing.
IM: You don't think that vitamins and minerals would help protect you
somewhat from all the drugs?
BB: Yeah, but‹ . . .
IM: You've got put your money where it's going to be the most effective,
right? On drugs.
BB: Right. I'd like to see a $1 million prize [for a bodybuilding contest].
That's something else that would help the sport. If there's a decent amount
of money in there, it would be something people would watch. Unfortunately,
I think people want to see the freaks at this point. Really big mothers up
there. It's like you said, you really can't go backwards. I guess you have
to let [it] self-destruct and see what happens.
IM: I don't want to see any of you guys die.
BB: We will. I guarantee you. You're going to see lots of guys dying in the
next few years.
IM: I hope the drug test is a step in the right direction, and maybe
they'll start judging for more aesthetic physiques. If they did backtrack
to more of the Bob Paris look, I think it would help.
BB: Is that ever going to happen?
IM: How much longer do you think you're going to go on with it?
BB: Till I reach my goal. Or it beats me.
IM: Have you ever experienced any kind of depression or rage?
BB: Oh, yeah. Beaten many people - Šgot out of hand. I feel bad about that.
IM: Having all that coursing through your system has to do something to you
mentally.
BB: Well, besides that, you feel a lump here, and you feel scared, and you
don't know what's going on.
IM: Do you get checked by a doctor regularly?
BB: I get the blood tests, and he reads it. It's foreign to me. I just ask
how much longer do I have to live, what am I doing wrong?
IM: But he doesn't do any MRIs on you? It's just basically a blood test?
BB: No. He checks my thyroid, sperm count. Of course, I'm never going to be
able to have children.
IM: Perhaps some of this will reverse itself once you‹ . . .
BB: No, I have irreversible damage.
IM: That's really sad.
BB: I think it happened last year. When I upped everything, I shut my
thyroid down. And if I go off the [blank], I'm going to get fat. I'm going
to stay on the stuff permanently. If I go off, I'm going to rebound. None
of these guys go off. It's just nonstop. These guys do what it takes. Don't
you see that they're exploiting us? They're selling us. They're pumping us
up, putting us on stage, throwing us off, and they're collecting the money.
And we¹re back there rolling around in death. In the process they will make
money. Sell ourselves. Sell our souls, and we don't get much. And even if
you take the drugs, it's no guarantee you¹re going to win. You have to have
something going on there. But [the people who run this sport] say, Keep it
going, keep it going. And watch their wallets getting bigger. They don't
care.
IM: But you did say looking like that helps you with women?
BB: That makes it a little worthwhile, but I never had any problem with the
bitches. I got plenty before. Now I'm bigger, so I get a lot more. But you
also get the bad - ‹that includes harassment from the homos. I want to say
for the guys who want to take their physiques to a [higher level], weight
training, eating right and exercising will help you achieve your goals.
What's big to you may be small compared to a pro, but like I said, Lee
Labrada will look huge to a lot of guys. So you can attain your goals, get
bigger, get better with the women, look good. You may not win Mr. Olympia,
but you can still have something to be proud of [without the drugs].
[Competitive bodybuilding, for the most part] is all chemistry. It's
chemical warfare. Andreas Munzer had something we never had. All those
striations and [blank] drugs, but look what it did to him. He died by the
sword. And [blank] pocketed everything Andreas ever did. We have to deal
with the rat race and the counterfeit steroids. All these guys saying,
Yeah, I fell down and broke my arm. That's not true. That's the dealer
breaking their arms because they didn't pay for their shipment of growth
hormone.
IM: You say you go to Mexico for a lot of this stuff?
BB: Yeah, I go to Mexico. The European tour is where most of us get our
drugs. [Switches subjects again] You don't need drug testing. Just a Lee
Labrada. It didn't take a ton [of drugs] to do that. Pick that, and there
you go. All the other guys will have to trim down to look like that. IM: Go
for the aesthetic physique. That¹s one of the big steps they have to take.
By the way, isn¹t there a drug that you can inject directly into the muscle
to blow it up?
BB: Oh, yeah, [blank]. Use that for my peak on my biceps. [Blank] uses it
everywhere - ‹80 to 100 shots. Tell you right now it hurts like hell. But
it's hard to predict. It may look good five days before the show, then it
lumps out and you¹ll get guys with the real lumpy, weird-looking biceps.
This whole sport is about being a bitch. You gotta be a bitch to pay your
bills. You gotta be a bitch to win. That's what it's all about. Total
exploitation. I'd like the athletes to make a little more money. All these
magazines talk about how much Michael Jordan and Mike Tyson make. They
don't talk about how much we make, 'cause it's disgraceful. What am I going
to do? Sell pictures of myself?
IM: Do a lot of the guys sell drugs on the side?
BB: Oh, yeah. I've done that myself. Now it's a lot harder.
IM: So what else? Is there¹s anything you can think of that you¹re really
pissed off about.
BB: Well, I'm pissed off that we have to use this amount of drugs. I was
happier with my physique last year. [They want us] in the 270-pound range.
IM: Don't you think the magazines are a little at fault too?
BB: Yeah, they are. They don't print nothing about the drug regimen.
They're selling fake dreams to kids: Take this protein powder, and you're
going to look like that. And it ain't true. Drugs play a predominant role,
and most of the [champions'] training articles lead to overtraining. You
know that. And unless you're on steroids, you're going to end up unhappy
and lose your dream.
IM: I guess it's a vicious cycle.
BB: The insulin's very dangerous. I'm feeling it right now. I'm getting
real tired, headaches, weakness. I breathe hard. Not a good drug to take.
IM: What's the danger with the insulin? It's a hormone, so what's the big
problem?
BB: You can die right there. I mean, there isn't one of us who hasn't been
in shock. You really don't know.
IM: Have you ever had to go to the hospital because of it?
BB: I've been in the hospital a few times, yeah. They had to use half a bag
of glucose intravenously to keep me going. I didn't have any glucose in my
liver, because I did too much insulin. My brain was starved, and I was
beginning to fall asleep, go into a coma. It's the most painful feeling
you'll ever feel. During that time your mind's going nuts. What am I
getting out of all this? A cover picture? That won't pay the bills. Maybe
they should start giving back to the athletes instead of taking. If they're
gonna make it where we have to be bigger, we should get something out of
it. Golfers make more money than we do. I saw how much they make at these
rodeos too. They collect $50,000 for riding some damn bull. They don't have
to take drugs to do that.
IM: The danger's there for eight seconds, then they're out of there. You
guys have danger all year long.
BB: Yeah it's dangerous.
IM: To say the least.
If that were the case, they would be dead already. Not in a few years, but right now. Guys like Coleman who've been around since the early 90's, would not be alive right now. The human body could not take all of that.
the husband is a has-been IMO and loves to talk shit but yet never backs it up on stage. But he is a PRO not some NPC dude. And was at the MR O last yr.
