What constitutes overtraining

[bigp3]

I think many people are confused and bewildered by the question of how many sets per body part should they do in a workout. I know I have asked myself this very thing many times. This seems to be the most common question that I hear from people that are beginner and intermediate bodybuilders/ weight trainers. Well, the more I thought about it, the more it became apparent to me that the answer is quite simple. You do enough to stimulate growth and allow yourself to recover in the shortest possible time so you can workout and grow again.

With this thought in mind, I found that it is possible to induce growth from just one set. Yes, I said it, one set. I know this is a taboo Mike Mentzer style of thinking, but it is the best way to train bar none in my opinion.

Let’s break this down for a second and understand the principles of why one set works. First off, I know that most of us experienced lifters have heard of the overload principle. This principle is key to my thinking. For those of you that have not let me explain. The overload principle simply states that all that is necessary to stimulate growth is an overload from the previous workout. I.E. Joe Blow benched 315 for 8 reps last week and he does 10 with it this week. This constitutes an overload and induces muscle growth. You say bullshit, right? Well hold your guns for a second tex, the overload principle has been scientifically proven and is accepted medically. It is also printed in many college medical text books. Go look.

Now, let’s go back to Joe Blow’s bench workout for a second. With the overload principle in mind and understood now, what is the point in Joe doing more sets of bench when he has already produced the stimulus to grow. I say it is pointless. What does Joe gain by doing more sets? Well let’s see, nothing. He has already produced the overload required to grow. What does Joe have to lose by doing more sets? Well for each additional set Joe does, he is increasing the trauma caused to the muscle and using more of his body’s resources to fuel the extra effort. What does this mean? It means that Joe has increased his recovery time from his workout. His body is going to need more time to repair than it would have with one set. This translates into Joe having to take an extra couple of days off to recover compared to if he just done one set. Well you say, so what, it is only a couple of days. You are exactly right a couple of days it is. Well over the course of a year those couple of days translate into months of lost training. Let’s say Joe can only train twice a two week span doing a high set workout as compared to being able to train 3 times in two weeks doing one set. Well that does not sound like all that much of a difference, but it is. Think about it, he can train 78 times using 1 set in a year as compared to 52 the high volume way. That is a 50% increase in his growth producing workouts per year. Yep that is right. 50%. You tell me which is more efficient. Remember this, bodybuilding is a game of detail and the small things you do each day or each week add up to major differences over the sum of a year.

An explanation on sets. When I say 1 set, I mean 1 work set per body part. I in no way expect you to come into the gym and put 315 on the bar and start benching it. Warm ups do not count as work sets. I say do as little as possibly needed to warm up, but don’t skip it.

Another note, one set per body part is not going to work if you are not giving 100% effort. It is going to be a waste of time. You have to put your balls into it ladies.

I know what I have just said is going to have a lot of you scratching your heads and saying I am an idiot. People are not receptive to change and never will be. They like to hold onto the things that they believe are true. Remember, it was a well known fact that the world was flat. People were chastised and locked away for life for believing otherwise. Keep and open mind and think critically about things.

Peace out,

P

 

[IronWuu]

Good post.
Check out HST Program for similar workout theories.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Doggcrap...I disagree with this line of thinking.

 

[The_Eviscerator]

Good post.
Check out HST Program for similar workout theories.

HST is awesome. The whole Dog Crap thing sounds stupid to me. Of course, I never tried it and I don't have a partner, so trying it is not really an option.

 

[slobberknocker]

"Another note, one set per body part is not going to work if you are not giving 100% effort. It is going to be a waste of time. You have to put your balls into it ladies."



Yeah, low volume doesn't mean "train like a little girl." It means go in and froth at the mouth for 45 minutes, then go home and eat yourself silly.


That's how I train. 3 workouts/week. 3 exercises/workout. 1-2 sets/exercise. And don't be afraid to go a little nuts in there. Paint your face before your workouts. Scream at people who aren't lifting.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Low volume will work...until your body adapts. You must vary the volume...along with the intensity, frequency, duration, etc...

No one training routine will work forever...variation is key.

 

[The_Eviscerator]

Another note, one set per body part is not going to work if you are not giving 100% effort. It is going to be a waste of time. You have to put your balls into it ladies.

I switched to HST over a year ago and I can concur that doing less sets per muscle per session allows you to work at a higher intensity level than those that do maraton sessions. I modified the HST to complete the whole body in two days with 5-6 sets per body part. After a few weeks doing this... I wondered how the hell I was able to do 16 sets per body part. Well, the reason was the intensity. Now I go into my set leaving nothing in the tank. I start with maximal weights and pound the muscle fast and hard.

I think of it this way. Say you can Bench press 275 for 12 reps. Now say you do a 1 day session of 15 sets on the Bench Press (we would never do this, but bare with me) with 275 pounds 12 reps per set. How many reps would you get by the 5th set? The 8th? The 10th? The 15th? Not 12 I would imagine.

Now Spread you 15 sets over three sessions within the same week and now doing 5 sets of 275 for 12 reps per session. Seems possible now, doesn't it?

By spreading it out, you worked the same amount of sets at a much higher intensity. Thus... this is why I like HST.

 

[MikeyG]

Doggcrap...I disagree with this line of thinking.

That's fine, but I would have to AGREE with bigp3 and Doggcrapp.. I have been doing this training and routine and I have never been more sore in my entire life and my poundages have been increasing at every workout, along with weight gain.. I guess that's safe to say that it works.

Overload is really the KEY for maximal muscle growth, but doing 4-5 sets per bodypart is simply INSANE! it just simply further recovery time, as bigP just said above. All you need to do is 2-3 warm up sets nowhere near of your final "work-set" poundages... warm-up are simply warm-ups! then hit it hardcore/balls-out at your last set. You'll see results. I promise ya.

Also want to note that it is imperative to keep a journal because you want to keep beating your previous workout/poundages. Why keep benching 275 all year long? You wanna increase it, hell that's why they make 2.5 pound plate bros! They should be your BEST friends in the gym!!

 

[Bulldog_10]

That's fine, but I would have to AGREE with bigp3 and Doggcrapp.. I have been doing this training and routine and I have never been more sore in my entire life and my poundages have been increasing at every workout, along with weight gain.. I guess that's safe to say that it works.

Overload is really the KEY for maximal muscle growth, but doing 4-5 sets per bodypart is simply INSANE! it just simply further recovery time, as bigP just said above. All you need to do is 2-3 warm up sets nowhere near of your final "work-set" poundages... warm-up are simply warm-ups! then hit it hardcore/balls-out at your last set. You'll see results. I promise ya.

Also want to note that it is imperative to keep a journal because you want to keep beating your previous workout/poundages. Why keep benching 275 all year long? You wanna increase it, hell that's why they make 2.5 pound plate bros! They should be your BEST friends in the gym!!

I realize that it works, I don't doubt that. I just don't think you will get the best possible results if you ALWAYS work at high intensity/low volume. Of course, if you do this...you will make gains. But I think in order to keep moving forward, you should increase the volume and decrease the intensity at certain times...and then bring the intensity back up and the volume back down. You can't let your body (musculoskeletal system and neuromuscular system, along with various other physiological systems) adapt to one type of training...IMO variation is necessary.

That's just my theory, I don't expect others to follow it...That's just what I've picked up from school, reading all over the place, and personal experience. Everyone's gotta learn for themselves, and everyone believes in different training theories...you gotta go with what you believe in.

 

[bicepts101]

ok well i personally have never even heard of this method but definatly sounds interesting.

The way i work out is ill do a few warm up sets then after that kill my self on every single set, going untill failure.
In the mean time after i get to like my 3rd exercise i sometimes find myself thinking is this still doing any good for me. I train one body part a week. I find my self literally sore for the entire week that muscle is resting. I always thought it was some kind of genetics. You know like my muscles just recover a little slower than everyone else. I guess maybe its not.
On the other hand i find my self making very decent gains including body weight gains.
So what ever happened to the Arnold kill yourself on every set method? Does any body else use this method too and does it work for them.

Also this other method of traing is it possible to perform without a training partner.
Who's got some other examples of routines they do while on this program.

 

[Singleton]

I found that it is possible to induce growth from just one set

Me too. Last week I did a set of 20 with 405 for shrugs. It was brutal. I am a skinny guy at 6'1, 194, 8.5% bf. Not too big at all.

Anyway, I noticed a result a few days later. My traps really seemed bigger.

I don't always train this way. I do yoga and I also train lighter to get a pump. I love the feeling of getting a pump, and when something feels so good like that, it just IS good. It brings a feeling of well-being and when have my shake afterwords, my muscles are full and I feel great.

HIT, if done properly, can yeild results very quickly.

 

[Canis Lupus]

Actually, the ACSM (American College of Sports Medicine) has the most up to date info. about response to training stimuli. (Yes, the ACSM was a load of crap in the "roids dont even work" days, but they always had the most credible training studies and actually studied muscle kinesiology.) The ACSM, in combo with hundreds of universities, have proven that multi set workouts are best for muscle hypertrophy. Now some of the Mentzer/Yates followers will say BS, but remember, Yates sometimes counts his first few sets as warmup...yet they progress in weight?? Also, Yates does twice as many actual exercises (he does) equalling a total volume. Now i'm not saying low sets does not work..i'm just saying it is not a proven method of growth. The ACSM does studies on non-drug/steroid users...that is proven science. What Mentzer/Yates have accomplished is incredible...but could not be used in studies because they are altered by drugs. Yes, studies were done on one set workouts/volumes...but they were the same studies used in the multi-set workouts and it seems they just didnt measure up.

 

[Singleton]

It's far from science, but HIT worked really well for me. I gained about 60lbs -- from 141 to a moderately lean (~9-10%?) 201 (at my heaviest weight, and on creatine).

I think it works and other than conditioning, I haven't seen (visual muscle increase) great results from non-intensity volume training.

HIT works for me, but these days I incorporate other types of training.

As far as overtraining goes, I like to monitor my mood and my pulse on rising. These symptoms may indicate that I am overtraining:

* feeling anxious, irritable, and cannot relax/focus (even in sleep)
* my pulse is too fast in the morning
* when HIT won't yeild a result

I recently diagnosed my overtraining routing and reduced the number of total workouts the number of HIT workouts. I am doing better now

 

[The_Eviscerator]

Also want to note that it is imperative to keep a journal because you want to keep beating your previous workout/poundages. Why keep benching 275 all year long? You wanna increase it, hell that's why they make 2.5 pound plate bros! They should be your BEST friends in the gym!!

I hope you aren't slamming my example. I totally agree that you must always use the kaizen principle. Always try to beat your best. basically HST and Dogcrapp sound similar. Maximal effort every set is the key. Of course their are warmup sets, but for the most part they seem similar in thought.

But... If you are saying to go to the gym and do one set to failure w/ no warmup I say BULLSHIT!

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Bulldog::Low volume will work...until your body adapts. You must vary the volume...along with the intensity, frequency, duration, etc...

Doggcrapp:: so your saying your body will get used to low volume and frequent workouts and it will work for only a certain amount of time so to get over that plateau hump you need to do even more work with more volume? Thats ingenious

Bulldog::No one training routine will work forever...variation is key.

Doggcrapp:: Really? tell that to the number of superheavyweight powerlifters in this country WHO ABSOLUTELY DWARF everyone around them. Are they doing high volume low volume up and down different workouts their whole career? NO they are basically doing the same damn progressive workouts with slight (very slight) variations. If you want to state things as "in my opinion" then thats fine but you state things as matter of factly and your facts are your opinion only. You are stating what works is exactly what 98% of the people in this world are doing right now training wise and failing--- ill try that--ok now ill try this--ok ill go back to that--ill try that guys routine over there--Ill try that routine-----HOW MANY BIG PEOPLE DO YOU SEE WALKING AROUND WITH YOUR METHODS? I see a bunch of people who after years of jumping from method to different method still look the same and still have no clue of what works best for them. Do I think my methods are the greatest end all methods in the world? No that would be idiotic and science, variations, and experience will change those methods over time. If what you say worked you wouldnt have the majority of lifters complaining they cant put muscle on and asking the questions they do

 

[slobberknocker]

Doggcrapp:: Really? tell that to the number of superheavyweight powerlifters in this country WHO ABSOLUTELY DWARF everyone around them. Are they doing high volume low volume up and down different workouts their whole career? NO they are basically doing the same damn progressive workouts with slight (very slight) variations.

He's right. I've been following Ed Coan's model for almost 2 years. I switch up an assistance exercise every now and then, but it's basically the same fucking routine every damn week.

Doing this has gotten me to just under a 1900 RAW total (no belt, no wraps) at the age of 20. I kinda think I'll stick with my routine.

Jesus Christ is it time to deadlift yet.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Bulldog::Low volume will work...until your body adapts. You must vary the volume...along with the intensity, frequency, duration, etc...

Doggcrapp:: so your saying your body will get used to low volume and frequent workouts and it will work for only a certain amount of time so to get over that plateau hump you need to do even more work with more volume? Thats ingenious

Bulldog::No one training routine will work forever...variation is key.

Doggcrapp:: Really? tell that to the number of superheavyweight powerlifters in this country WHO ABSOLUTELY DWARF everyone around them. Are they doing high volume low volume up and down different workouts their whole career? NO they are basically doing the same damn progressive workouts with slight (very slight) variations. If you want to state things as "in my opinion" then thats fine but you state things as matter of factly and your facts are your opinion only. You are stating what works is exactly what 98% of the people in this world are doing right now training wise and failing--- ill try that--ok now ill try this--ok ill go back to that--ill try that guys routine over there--Ill try that routine-----HOW MANY BIG PEOPLE DO YOU SEE WALKING AROUND WITH YOUR METHODS? I see a bunch of people who after years of jumping from method to different method still look the same and still have no clue of what works best for them. Do I think my methods are the greatest end all methods in the world? No that would be idiotic and science, variations, and experience will change those methods over time. If what you say worked you wouldnt have the majority of lifters complaining they cant put muscle on and asking the questions they do

First off, you don't have to keep posting these imaginary conversations with me every time you're here. You can say what you think, then I'll say what I think...that way we can have a REAL conversation.

Second, I never said anything about switching from method to method. I recommend staying with one method, periodization.

The majority of people DON'T do what I am saying. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people stay in the 8-12 rep range the entire time they train. They never go down to doing sets of 1-2 reps...i know i never did before i started studying this shit.

How many big people do I see walking that vary their routines? How about most major athletes? These people are big AND fast AND agile.

I'm done arguing with you over this...if you want to do this, and you think it's THE best way to train...and you ARE saying that your methods are the greatest end all methods in the world...then by all means go ahead.

Just out of curiosity, what are your credentials? I asked before and you never answered.

 

[bowling ball nutz]

my workout is a mixture of dogcrapp style and mentzer beliefs, every work out I either can do 2 more reps or add 5 lbs

with strength comes size and with size comes strength,

 

[seungmena]

I used short Yates style intense workouts for years and I grew.

However, I ve now switched to 3 sets to fail or just before (i train alone), and my previous progress looks pathetic in comparison.

Everyone is different and you have to do what works for you. Given that I am making gains in the gym while restricting caloires and comparing them to the gains I made while eating to gain muscle mass - its working!

The key is to experiment and change until you find what works, then if it stops or isnt good enough repeat the process. As you grow and change things different approaches become approproate.

 

[MikeyG]

Just out of curiosity, what are your credentials? I asked before and you never answered.

I wouldnt bash DoggCrapp, from my reading of his numberous posts/articles and my short converstations with him, I would consider that he's one of the few that really knows his shit training/nutrition as well as anabolic usage. oh, by the way what are your creditals Bull_Dog anyways? hell, why does having creditals have to prove anything?

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Bulldog::Just out of curiosity, what are your credentials? I asked before and you never answered.

Doggcrapp:: I have a masters in Anabolicology from MIT. A masters in Hardcore Training Physics from Columbia. I took Dieting and Gaining Nutrition up to 4lbs of muscle per inch of height 101 also at Columbia. And I took a night course of "cutting edge supplementation" at Harvard. Besides that I once won the Pinewood Derby in boyscouts, appeared as an extra in 2 VH1 videos and won the best gynomasticia award at my last show and can make a mean chocolate pudding.

All kidding aside--About 15 years of studying everything and anything I could get my hands on---and I guess if you want to research me you should start in the early 90's with my magazine Hardcore Muscle which I am pretty sure started a standard for alot of what came after it and then make your way onward till now.

 

[Bulldog_10]

I wouldnt bash DoggCrapp, from my reading of his numberous posts/articles and my short converstations with him, I would consider that he's one of the few that really knows his shit training/nutrition as well as anabolic usage. oh, by the way what are your creditals Bull_Dog anyways? hell, why does having creditals have to prove anything?

Ok, I'm gonna say this one more time...I'M NOT BASHING ANYONE! I don't believe in his methods...I won't use them...I won't tell anyone else to use them. Is this bashing someone? My credentials...I read just about everything I can get my hands on, I'm a senior at Boston University majoring in clinical exercise physiology...going to graduate school next year for kinesiology or physical therapy...My credentials have nothing to do with anything, however. I'm not the one saying my training methods are the say all end all in training...although I do believe I know more about training than most.

And having credentials proves alot...don't give me that bullshit, credentials means nothing...that's a load of crap. If credentials didn't mean anything, why do we have schools? Why do you need to be qualified to get certain jobs? I for one like to know where people learned the things they know before i follow their advice.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

My degree is in Engineering, my passion for studying is training, nutrition, supplements, enhanced compounds. As any degree pertaining to the latter (except maybe sports medicine) brings a highly laughable salary at best-I made the decision to get my degree in another field. As far as degrees mattering--you tell me who you would rather go to to fix your car? Someone who has been working on those kinds of cars for the last 30 years or someone who just graduated with a degree from ITT tech in automotove technology. I could go down to any large fitness club chain (LA fitness, 24hour fitness, BAllys) and pull 50 trainers with degrees who wouldnt have a freaking clue what the most cutting edge people in this sport were talking about.

 

[Bulldog_10]

We're not talking about fixing cars. And if we were, I'd like to take my car to someone with 6 years of training from highly qualified technicians, as opposed to someone who just picked it up on their own.

 

[bigp3]

Amen DC,

There is a guy that is a trainer at my gym who has a degree in exercise physiology and the things he does are laughable. Not to mention he weighs a buck fifty soak and wet with a hard on. I believe proof is in the pudding as my father used to say. AKA proof is in the results.

 

[bigp3]

Low volume will work...until your body adapts. You must vary the volume...along with the intensity, frequency, duration, etc...

No one training routine will work forever...variation is key.

Bulldog,

I agree that your body adapts to the same thing over and over. But, I disagree that you need to increase volume to stimulate growth. This goes to prove the overload principle which is based on muscle overload and adaptation. If you use the same stimulus from week to week your body adapts to this and will not grow. Hence, you put an overload on the muscle by increasing the weight and intensity week to week. Your body then adapts to the new stimulus and grows. Another rep, another five lbs. These things constitute overload which induces growth. I know I always want to take the shortes possible route to acheive the results I want and this way of training constitutes this.

 

[bigp3]

I realize that it works, I don't doubt that. I just don't think you will get the best possible results if you ALWAYS work at high intensity/low volume. Of course, if you do this...you will make gains. But I think in order to keep moving forward, you should increase the volume and decrease the intensity at certain times...and then bring the intensity back up and the volume back down. You can't let your body (musculoskeletal system and neuromuscular system, along with various other physiological systems) adapt to one type of training...IMO variation is necessary.

That's just my theory, I don't expect others to follow it...That's just what I've picked up from school, reading all over the place, and personal experience. Everyone's gotta learn for themselves, and everyone believes in different training theories...you gotta go with what you believe in.

Agreed,,,

You cant go balls to the wall 52 weeks a year. This is why you go 6 to 8 weeks all out then cruise for 2 to 3 weeks and then kick it back up again.

I think everyone is missing the whole point of this. It is to do only what is necessary to stimulate growth (overload) then rest, eat and train again as soon as your body has recovered. This allows shorter recovery time and more workouts per year, thus more growth.

 

[bigp3]

Actually, the ACSM (American College of Sports Medicine) has the most up to date info. about response to training stimuli. (Yes, the ACSM was a load of crap in the "roids dont even work" days, but they always had the most credible training studies and actually studied muscle kinesiology.) The ACSM, in combo with hundreds of universities, have proven that multi set workouts are best for muscle hypertrophy. Now some of the Mentzer/Yates followers will say BS, but remember, Yates sometimes counts his first few sets as warmup...yet they progress in weight?? Also, Yates does twice as many actual exercises (he does) equalling a total volume. Now i'm not saying low sets does not work..i'm just saying it is not a proven method of growth. The ACSM does studies on non-drug/steroid users...that is proven science. What Mentzer/Yates have accomplished is incredible...but could not be used in studies because they are altered by drugs. Yes, studies were done on one set workouts/volumes...but they were the same studies used in the multi-set workouts and it seems they just didnt measure up.

I was once an ACSM certified trainer and I think that is bull hockey along with half the other crap they say. The ACSM is not intended nor set up for the hardcore bodybuilder. It is textbook training mostly authored by people who have not done bodybuilding or are aware of what goes in it.

I know the study that you are referencing to. What the missing factor here is, is intensity. For example, They have person A doing 10 reps with said weight for 1 set and person B doing 5 sets for 10 reps with said weight. Well, the person who is doing 1 set is not going balls to the wall with rest pauses, negatives, etc.. In addition, what this study does not take in to consideration is that fact becuase of the reduced recovery time from the low volume workouts you can train more often, thus inducing more growth over a years time. This study is flawed and does not apply to real world bodybuilders.

As for Dorian Yates. You are absolutely right that he does more sets than he says. I as well as him do not count warm ups as works sets. They are exactly that, warm ups and nothing more. There would be no way he could jump on 495 on the bench without some kind of warmup.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Agreed,,,

You cant go balls to the wall 52 weeks a year. This is why you go 6 to 8 weeks all out then cruise for 2 to 3 weeks and then kick it back up again.

I think everyone is missing the whole point of this. It is to do only what is necessary to stimulate growth (overload) then rest, eat and train again as soon as your body has recovered. This allows shorter recovery time and more workouts per year, thus more growth.

Your body adapts to your routine after about 4 weeks, so why not go 4 weeks balls to the wall, then cruise for a week, then start over? That's basically what I do, except I do it in different levels...it's not just balls to the wall and cruise.

What goes on during the cruising phase? Low intensity and low volume? Active recovery?

 

[serapio]

Dorian Yates did this type of training isn't?

 

[bigp3]

Dorian was a pioneer in training. He advocated a basic routine that consisted of low volume high intesity hig frequency workouts. People say he did a lot of sets but that is bogus. Many people misunderstand what he was doing and count his warmup sets as part of his volume. If you can find his book "Blood and Guts" it is a good read. It is very basic but it will give you insight into his way of thinking. I believe what seperated Dorian from the pack was that he did not blindly follow what others were doing. He thought about things and did what made sense.

 

[bicepts101]

Your body adapts to your routine after about 4 weeks, so why not go 4 weeks balls to the wall, then cruise for a week, then start over? That's basically what I do, except I do it in different levels...it's not just balls to the wall and cruise.

What goes on during the cruising phase? Low intensity and low volume? Active recovery?

Bulldog,
what is your routine on your cruise week. Like how many reps and do you go to failure? Im not sure what constitutes "cruise".

 

[Bulldog_10]

Bulldog,
what is your routine on your cruise week. Like how many reps and do you go to failure? Im not sure what constitutes "cruise".

I don't have cruise weeks, that's what i was asking.

 

[pharmguy]

This may sound ignorant, what is a cruise week?

 

[Debaser]

Bulldog, I think you're confused as to what gains muscle, as are 95% of weight trainees.

So many people think it is "mixing it up" because your body "constantly adapts" and needs "new stimulus" to continue growth. BULLSHIT. I've said it millions of times:

PROGRESSIVE POUNDAGES IS WHAT BUILDS MUSCLE.

If you squat 100 lbs now and in a few years you squat 500 lbs, you will be completely transformed. If you "mix it up" and change your routine every month then in a few years you'll probably be squatting 150-200 lbs, and won't have changed much. Periodization in the sense that most people describe, is a bunch of horseshit. It's a new spin on the same tired old high volume split routines that most trainees give up on. Go ahead and listen to Poliquin. But first, name one hardcore bodybuilder that he has produced.

 

[babbabuee]

I always wondered how those guys in prison got so big. I'm sure they weren't drinking 8 scoops of protein mega mass in a shake every day with steak and chicken whenever they want it.
I think those guys get big in prison because of that frequency. I mean shit, if you were in prison, wouldn't you lift 7 days a week? what the fuck would you do on your off day if you were to take one, play scrabble with your cell mate?
So my question is, why am I so hesitant to try these new methods? It's not like I'm huge at 5'9" 173lbs after years of on and off lifting.
Overall, I think the key is consistency. going to the gym day in and day out and staying on top of your dieting/rest. Low intensity, high volume, either way at the gym you'll grow if you go. question is, which method will you grow more from?

 

[Payphone_Johnny]

What constitutes overtraining ?

Most of the people's training splits on almost any board.
This 4 on 1 off shit is fucking rediculous. Your body recuperates as a whole (nervous system) not by the sum of it's parts (the logic of it's been 5 or 6 days since I trained my quads,ect).

 

[Jordaz]

I always wondered how those guys in prison got so big. I'm sure they weren't drinking 8 scoops of protein mega mass in a shake every day with steak and chicken whenever they want it.
I think those guys get big in prison because of that frequency. I mean shit, if you were in prison, wouldn't you lift 7 days a week? what the fuck would you do on your off day if you were to take one, play scrabble with your cell mate?

I wonder the same thing. My bro went to the pen for 4 years and came out a monster! They train every day. each bodypart 2-3 times a week. On top of all this they dont get to eat 6- 8 meals a day and no supplements. Things that make you go Hummmmmmm

 

[Singleton]

Some things that have been mentioned:
Frequency may contribute to gains
Intensity stimulates gains quickly
Consecutive intense workouts can lead to bodypart AND systemic overtraining


My training style is HIT for muscle growth, but I do other stuff. Yoga, HIIT, light weights.


I call this other stuff "Training for recovery." You're not going to lose muscle by training well below your capacity, but you will stretch the fascia, engorge the muscle with blood, and promote recouperation, raise your testosterone levels, release endorphins, and create a post-workout state that can be anabolic if you eat the right nutrients soon enough.

Training for recovery won't force your body to grow. For that, use HIT. Training for recovery will help your body recover. It can also improve your total health.

Should you cycle this training? Why not integrate it in a staggered fashion. If you did chest HIT style one WO, the next chest WO could be very low intensity -- maybe just a warmup, pump, squeeze, and stretch with light weights, high reps (12-20), and some stretching in the sun.

Next chest workout would be HIT, balls-out.


The most important thing is to be able to detect overtraining. When you can pinpoint overtraining, then you know your threshold.

 

[Lift Chief]

I like 4-6 working sets to failure per muscle group... working out EOD so that the CNS can recover.

 

[bigp3]

I always wondered how those guys in prison got so big. I'm sure they weren't drinking 8 scoops of protein mega mass in a shake every day with steak and chicken whenever they want it.
I think those guys get big in prison because of that frequency. I mean shit, if you were in prison, wouldn't you lift 7 days a week? what the fuck would you do on your off day if you were to take one, play scrabble with your cell mate?
So my question is, why am I so hesitant to try these new methods? It's not like I'm huge at 5'9" 173lbs after years of on and off lifting.
Overall, I think the key is consistency. going to the gym day in and day out and staying on top of your dieting/rest. Low intensity, high volume, either way at the gym you'll grow if you go. question is, which method will you grow more from?

Good thought on this one. A buddy of mine is a prison guard and he says that they usually limit the guys to one hour of lifting per day. Granted this is a max security federal prison and not the county jail. I think what this does is limit the amount of time these guys have to lift which forces them not to overtrain. In addition to this,,, the train with more frequency since they have nothing better to do. I would also bet these guys train with high intensity as well since the majority of people that are federal inmates are extremely aggressive. So what does this add up to? High intensity, high frequency and low volume by force.

 

[bigp3]

another thought on the prison guys,,,, how much cardio do you think they are doing,,,, I bet none and more than likely the spend most of there day just sitting around doing nothg.... this = recovery

 

[Bulldog_10]

Bulldog, I think you're confused as to what gains muscle, as are 95% of weight trainees.

So many people think it is "mixing it up" because your body "constantly adapts" and needs "new stimulus" to continue growth. BULLSHIT. I've said it millions of times:

PROGRESSIVE POUNDAGES IS WHAT BUILDS MUSCLE.

If you squat 100 lbs now and in a few years you squat 500 lbs, you will be completely transformed. If you "mix it up" and change your routine every month then in a few years you'll probably be squatting 150-200 lbs, and won't have changed much. Periodization in the sense that most people describe, is a bunch of horseshit. It's a new spin on the same tired old high volume split routines that most trainees give up on. Go ahead and listen to Poliquin. But first, name one hardcore bodybuilder that he has produced.

So you don't make progress by periodizing your workouts?

When you perdiodize, you lift very heavy, very low volume for 4 weeks, then you drop the intensity a bit and raise the volume a bit. Until you're lifting with relatively low intensity and high volume (8-12 rep sets). Then you start the whole thing over...the next time with higher weights.

And of course, if you squat 100 pounds now, and 500 later, you'll be bigger. But your body can't go on just adding weight workout after workout. It needs a break. I think the best, safest way to get to that 500 pounds is by working your body in different ways.

And if you want to just go ahead and keep tossing the poundages up, go for it. But it will lead to injury and burnout.

And one thing I don't get about this training program you think is so great: Are you lifting at the highest possible intensity for 8-12 reps? Because that seems pretty contradictory to me.

And no, poliquin doesn't train hardcore bodybuilders...but I'll bet my life that most of the guys he trains look alot better than most of the "hardcore bodybuilders" you know...and they can actually use their bodies for alot more than squatting 500 pounds.

 

[bigp3]

I only know one way to do things and that is balls to the wall,,, whether it is business, training or whatever. Too many people half ass their way through life. I know I only have a short time here on this earth and I want to make the most of it.

 

[babbabuee]

I'm with you on the balls out bigp. good point too about the rest and lack of cardio for the inmates. I'm seriously interested in this HIT (or whatever you call it) training. I'm going to do a cycle in a couple of months, so I thought I could try this different approach for two months and see what happens.

 

[bigp3]

all I can say is that since I have lowered the volume of my training my gains have increased at a dramatic rate. I cant wait to start working with DC in a month or so.

 

[sk*]

Your body adapts to your routine after about 4 weeks, so why not go 4 weeks balls to the wall, then cruise for a week, then start over? That's basically what I do, except I do it in different levels...it's not just balls to the wall and cruise.

What goes on during the cruising phase? Low intensity and low volume? Active recovery?

If you read DC's original posts on A's board you will see that he suggests 4 "balls to wall" and 2 "cruise weeks."

-sk

 

[bigp3]

amen

 

[Debaser]

But your body can't go on just adding weight workout after workout. It needs a break.

I don't consider adding volume a break. One of the best ways to add weight is intensity cycling. We'll use squats as an example...

An example training cycle for the 20 rep squat. Let's say your 5RM is 300 lbs:

Session 1: 240 lbs (80% Max)
Session 2: 255 lbs (85%)
Session 3: 270 lbs (90%)
Session 4: 285 lbs (95%)
Session 5: 300 lbs (100%) Though this might not feel like 100% effort anymore.
Session 6: 310 lbs, you give it your all and your squat is up 10 lbs
Session 7: 315 lbs you're working pretty damn hard at this point
Session 8: 320 lbs still moving like a freight train
Session 9: 325 lbs incredibly tough, feeling form starting to waver

Now it would be ridiculous to start adding volume, what you can do if you have them is break out the little plates. DC training accomplishes the same goal by alternating exercises, but let's stick with this option for example...

Session 10: 327 lbs form remained good
11: 330 lbs doing great

And so on for a few more weeks, hitting PRs and adding weight every single time. Eventually, let's say session 14 You give it your all and just cannot add weight or reps. Then you simply start the cycle over. People vary where they start, but it's generally 70-85% of their max. You can very much train for the rest of your life in this manner. If you hit walls that are seemingly impossible to overcome, it's time to start focusing on the weak link in the chain of a compound movement, not adding volume, changing your entire workout around. That will completely disrupt your focus and make linear progress difficult if not impossible.

 

[bigp3]

I don't consider adding volume a break. One of the best ways to add weight is intensity cycling. We'll use squats as an example...

An example training cycle for the 20 rep squat. Let's say your 5RM is 300 lbs:

Session 1: 240 lbs (80% Max)
Session 2: 255 lbs (85%)
Session 3: 270 lbs (90%)
Session 4: 285 lbs (95%)
Session 5: 300 lbs (100%) Though this might not feel like 100% effort anymore.
Session 6: 310 lbs, you give it your all and your squat is up 10 lbs
Session 7: 315 lbs you're working pretty damn hard at this point
Session 8: 320 lbs still moving like a freight train
Session 9: 325 lbs incredibly tough, feeling form starting to waver

Now it would be ridiculous to start adding volume, what you can do if you have them is break out the little plates. DC training accomplishes the same goal by alternating exercises, but let's stick with this option for example...

Session 10: 327 lbs form remained good
11: 330 lbs doing great

And so on for a few more weeks, hitting PRs and adding weight every single time. Eventually, let's say session 14 You give it your all and just cannot add weight or reps. Then you simply start the cycle over. People vary where they start, but it's generally 70-85% of their max. You can very much train for the rest of your life in this manner. If you hit walls that are seemingly impossible to overcome, it's time to start focusing on the weak link in the chain of a compound movement, not adding volume, changing your entire workout around. That will completely disrupt your focus and make linear progress difficult if not impossible.

could not have said it better myself

 

[Debaser]

bump

 

[satchboogie]

hard for me to believe that you can grow faster by only doing 1 set per body part.

but i've heard crazier things in my time so anything is possible.

 

[babbabuee]

well satch, I think the thing is, they're not counting the warm ups as sets. so you could do two warm up sets and two high intensity sets, but doing those three times a week so you end up with 6 high intensity reps. I think I'm going to try this for the next two months before I start my next cycle.
however, unless I see some gains, I'm going back to the old style while I'm on the juice.

 

[bicepts101]

great thread bros!

Very informative, lets keep this info flowing!!!!!

 

[bigp3]

satch,,, ask mikeyg he will tell you all about the program. I know just from messing with it over the last few months I have seen nice gains and I have never been so sore in my life. I know I was a skeptic at first!

 

[benevolent anarchist]

I’m jumping in here late but…

<snip> And if you want to just go ahead and keep tossing the poundages up, go for it. But it will lead to injury and burnout.<snip>

Okay you’re right but only because most people’s egos won’t allow them to increase their poundages in small increments—probably because they perceive it as being wimpy. The fact remains the same—simple progression is the only consideration that matters—whether the progression is one pound or ten. What ends up happening is rather than doing 317 pound squats with perfect form, they end up doing 325 pound squats with shitty form and that is what leads to injury. Of course some gyms don’t have the small discs. I am fortunate in that my gym has ½ pound through 5.

 

[bigp3]

small steps lead to leaps over the long term

 

[Debaser]

Yup...most people are concerned with getting a pump and making sure they hit "all aspects" of the muscle from "every angle"...and most people are small as a result.

Who do you think is going to have bigger shoulders, the guy that does a 300 lb overhead press and 450 lb barbell rows, or the guy that hits every segment of his delts with 20 lb dumbells?

 

[Bulldog_10]

Yup...most people are concerned with getting a pump and making sure they hit "all aspects" of the muscle from "every angle"...and most people are small as a result.

Who do you think is going to have bigger shoulders, the guy that does a 300 lb overhead press and 450 lb barbell rows, or the guy that hits every segment of his delts with 20 lb dumbells?

Ugh...this is getting rediculous. Just because you're doing more volume (at some points in the training program) doesn't mean you're doing different exercises, or not adding weight.

If simply adding weight every workout works, then why the hell are these "cruise" weeks in there? Because your body just can't handle linear overloading...Doggcrapp knows this, but he just calls his lighter weeks by a different name, and since they're "cruise" weeks, people think they're different from any other program's ligher weeks.

Again, I believe most of your programs are ok, but they seem to be based on only a few physiological principles, while ignoring many others. Sure, the good old overload principle says that if you lift heavier weights at every workout, you'll grow. But now you're ignoring your neuromuscular system...and the overtraining principle. And you're ignoring basic human nature...people can't just go on monotonously all the time...they need to mix things up, there needs to be variety in every training program. Of course there are people that can stick to the same old shit over and over again, and these people are hardcore and shit, but even they will succomb to overtraining and injury if they keep adding and adding weight linearly.

I'm not really into this argument anymore, people have their views, and people believe in different training principles...bottom line is that you gotta use what you believe in...and if you use a program you don't believe in, you will not succeed. So you follow your program, I'll follow mine. Who knows, perhaps somewhere in my studying I'll learn something that will lead me to believe in DC training...but until then I'm gonna stick with what I've learned up until now from all the experience I've gathered through my own training, reading, and in school learning this shit.

 

[sk*]

Ugh...this is getting rediculous. Just because you're doing more volume (at some points in the training program) doesn't mean you're doing different exercises, or not adding weight.

If simply adding weight every workout works, then why the hell are these "cruise" weeks in there? Because your body just can't handle linear overloading...Doggcrapp knows this, but he just calls his lighter weeks by a different name, and since they're "cruise" weeks, people think they're different from any other program's ligher weeks.

Again, I believe most of your programs are ok, but they seem to be based on only a few physiological principles, while ignoring many others. Sure, the good old overload principle says that if you lift heavier weights at every workout, you'll grow. But now you're ignoring your neuromuscular system...and the overtraining principle. And you're ignoring basic human nature...people can't just go on monotonously all the time...they need to mix things up, there needs to be variety in every training program. Of course there are people that can stick to the same old shit over and over again, and these people are hardcore and shit, but even they will succomb to overtraining and injury if they keep adding and adding weight linearly.

I'm not really into this argument anymore, people have their views, and people believe in different training principles...bottom line is that you gotta use what you believe in...and if you use a program you don't believe in, you will not succeed. So you follow your program, I'll follow mine. Who knows, perhaps somewhere in my studying I'll learn something that will lead me to believe in DC training...but until then I'm gonna stick with what I've learned up until now from all the experience I've gathered through my own training, reading, and in school learning this shit.

Just curious, but how does one gain muscle if the weight on the bar doesn't keep increasing? What's the logic behind it?

-sk

 

[Bulldog_10]

Just curious, but how does one gain muscle if the weight on the bar doesn't keep increasing? What's the logic behind it?

-sk

You see...this is the thing...you DO keep adding weight, but in an undulating fashion. So over time, the weight on the bar DOES increase...it's just that at certain points in your training you're doing more volume...at which point you obviously won't be able to work at maximum intensity.

By doing different intensities, volumes, frequencies, and lifting speeds...you are training your neuromuscular system along with your muscles. If you don't do this, sure you will grow as long as you don't get hurt...but even then, you won't be able to USE this muscle as efficiently as you could had you trained differently. This is why I would NEVER recommend any DC-type training to anyone who actually has a life outside of bodybuilding...not that I would recommend it to anyone at all...but that's a different story.

Am I making sense Sk*? If that doesn't answer your question...let me know...I'll try again.

 

[sk*]

You see...this is the thing...you DO keep adding weight, but in an undulating fashion. So over time, the weight on the bar DOES increase...it's just that at certain points in your training you're doing more volume...at which point you obviously won't be able to work at maximum intensity.

By doing different intensities, volumes, frequencies, and lifting speeds...you are training your neuromuscular system along with your muscles. If you don't do this, sure you will grow as long as you don't get hurt...but even then, you won't be able to USE this muscle as efficiently as you could had you trained differently. This is why I would NEVER recommend any DC-type training to anyone who actually has a life outside of bodybuilding...not that I would recommend it to anyone at all...but that's a different story.

Am I making sense Sk*? If that doesn't answer your question...let me know...I'll try again.

But, do you gain muscle during the volume training sessions when you aren't going to failure? Or are they just fillers?

If you gain muscle during the volume training, while not adding on extra weight, than how do you explain that?

-sk

 

[Bulldog_10]

But, do you gain muscle during the volume training sessions when you aren't going to failure? Or are they just fillers?

If you gain muscle during the volume training, while not adding on extra weight, than how do you explain that?

-sk

No one said anything about not going to failure...when you're in the 8-12 rep range, that should be all you can do...if you can do #13, then the weight is too light.

And again, you ARE adding weight for most of the program, it is just a few microcycles in which you lower the intensity. But if you look at the program overall, you are always adding weight.

The hypertrophy stage (stage with the highest volume, 8-12 reps per set) of my training, has been shown to produce greater changes in LBM and greater decreases in body fat than low volume training. It also increases your short term endurance, especially in terms of doing high intensity training.

This stuff has been shown to be true over and over again. Honestly, I'm not quite sure WHY this is true, but I'm sure I can dig some stuff up...might take some time...but I'll give it a shot.

 

[sk*]

Lots and lots of volume does not mean lots and lots of growth. Frequency is the key to gaining muscle at the fastest rate possible. If I'm training twice as often as you and not overtraining, I'm growing twice as often as you.

Overtraining isn't the word. Recovering ...

If you fully recover than I would agree, but it is hard to tell ...

-sk

 

[Debaser]

Lots and lots of volume does not mean lots and lots of growth. Frequency is the key to gaining muscle at the fastest rate possible. If I'm training twice as often as you and not overtraining, I'm growing twice as often as you.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Lots and lots of volume does not mean lots and lots of growth. Frequency is the key to gaining muscle at the fastest rate possible. If I'm training twice as often as you and not overtraining, I'm growing twice as often as you.

No one facet of your training is any more important than the others...you just have to find the perfect combination of all of them for optimal growth. I can train 7 times as often as you, but that doesn't mean shit because it fucks everything else up.

That's why I don't like DC's program...it bases the whole program on just a few ideas.

 

[bigp3]

Lots and lots of volume does not mean lots and lots of growth. Frequency is the key to gaining muscle at the fastest rate possible. If I'm training twice as often as you and not overtraining, I'm growing twice as often as you.

exactly my point

 

[genarr4]

He's right. I've been following Ed Coan's model for almost 2 years. I switch up an assistance exercise every now and then, but it's basically the same fucking routine every damn week.

Doing this has gotten me to just under a 1900 RAW total (no belt, no wraps) at the age of 20. I kinda think I'll stick with my routine.

Jesus Christ is it time to deadlift yet.

Ed Coan is THE MAN!

Just had to say that.

 

[Debaser]

bump

 

[bicepts101]

what do you guys mean by volume?