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What are deadlifts supposed to work?

audiophyle

New member
I started deadlifting about a month ago and it's definately an intense excersise, i like them alot. but i'm still confused about exactly what they're supposed to work. from what i read, they're best for lower back and hamstrings, but when i'm finished working out, i'm more sore in my lower back, forearms and shoulders. My hams dont get anything from dealifts. Same question for stiff leg deadlifts. Are they meant to work anything other than lower back??
 
You hit your hams mainly when you do stiff legged deadlifts. Your shoulders are sore because you're shrugging when you pull up. Your forearms because well... yeah. Lower back.. obvious. :D
 
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Believe it or not. . .they work everything.

Primary stress is placed on the erectors, hips, thighs, hams, and upper back.
 
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My glutes get a pounding from SLDs.

If I were only allowed to chose one exercise to perform for the rest of my life, it would be deadlifts.
 
Zander1983 said:
My glutes get a pounding from SLDs.

If I were only allowed to chose one exercise to perform for the rest of my life, it would be deadlifts.

me too:alien:
 
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/ErectorSpinae/BBDeadlift.html

Classification
Utility: Basic
Mechanics: Compound
Force: Pull

Muscles
Target (See Comments)

Erector Spinae
Synergists

Gluteus Maximus
Adductor Magnus
Quadriceps
Soleus
Dynamic Stabilizers

Hamstrings
Gastrocnemius
Stabilizers

Trapezius, Middle
Trapezius, Upper
Levator Scapulae
Rhomboids
Antagonist Stabilizers

Rectus Abdominis
Obliques
 
For growth, it's really only gonna hit the quads, hams and glutes. The other muscles are only involved isometrically, which isn't that great for muscle-building.

-casualbb
 
In my opinion deads hit your entire back, hams and glutes. In addition I believe that they work your quads and the rest of your upper body. Overall it is an amazing mass and strength building exercise when performed properly.
 
From top to bottom, I feel it in my: neck, traps, shoulders, chest, upper and lower back, forearms, abs, butt, hams.
 
casualbb said:
For growth, it's really only gonna hit the quads, hams and glutes. The other muscles are only involved isometrically, which isn't that great for muscle-building.

-casualbb

so then what do you propose is the reason that all good strong men and powerlifters have huge traps. I purport these being directly related to big deadlifts and heavy farmers walks
 
Zander1983 said:
If I were only allowed to chose one exercise to perform for the rest of my life, it would be deadlifts.

I agree 100%. I'm never as out of breath after a set as I am after a good set of deads. I think they strategically placed all the benches (for resting) over by the heavy stuff.
 
so then what do you propose is the reason that all good strong men and powerlifters have huge traps. I purport these being directly related to big deadlifts and heavy farmers walks

Simply holding something will cause growth, but it doesn't compare to the growth caused by an eccentric motion. I still maintain that if you really want bigger traps, a shrug beats a deadlift hands-down.

Most people also don't hold their traps completely relaxed during a deadlift. There's often some motion, providing some eccentric.

-casualbb
 
Well, as per usual, we need to define deadlift.

RDL, SDL, etc...NOT DEADLIFTS. This changes which muscles are worked most, obviously.

Traps most CERTAINLY get worked in a deadlift...let's not forget that the humps next to your head are the LEAST of your traps...the traps extend all the way down to the middle of your back and over to your shoudler blades. You stimulate the whole muscle, even when you work the bottom 2/3 of it.

Powerlifters don't shrug the dead at the top either. Why add 2 -3 inches to the range of motion? Deafeats the purpose.

Powerlifters also build the traps though accessory work, like rows, to assist in raising the body to decrease the ROM in the bench press.

:)
 
If done properly, Conventional Deads should primarily be used to develop the glutes, erectors, hams, and traps (more lower). Secondarily, it'll hit just about everything else including the abs, forearms, quads, lats, rhomboids, and to some extent even the calves.
 
give a good squeeze back at the end of the concetric and you'll feel your rear delts and triceps too.
 
I totally disagree on the trap issue. I am locked in a shrug-like position (with shoulders pulled back) the entire lift (how you are supposed to do it unless you're powerlifting). Casual science may not back up the deadlift as much but in real life it makes peoples backs blow up. Including mine. Shrugs have NEVER given me the growth that deadlifts have.
 
While we're on the topic of anecdotes, my [upper] traps exploded when I did heavy barbell shrugs, and now that I do only deadlift they're not growing at all. So nah-nah-nuh-nah-nah, lol.

-casualbb
 
Debaser said:
I totally disagree on the trap issue. I am locked in a shrug-like position (with shoulders pulled back) the entire lift (how you are supposed to do it unless you're powerlifting). Casual science may not back up the deadlift as much but in real life it makes peoples backs blow up. Including mine. Shrugs have NEVER given me the growth that deadlifts have.

I'm with debaser on this one.
 
Fine, think whatever you want. The truth of the situation is that loading eccentrics cause muscle growth a lot better than statics. Ask anyone who's done SCT.

If I recall correctly, DC realizes this too, hence the super-long negatives. I even remember him saying, "concentric is just the priming phase, the eccentric is what causes growth," or something along those lines. For him to then go and recommend rack deadlifts for upper traps is just silly. Are we making upper traps another special case? "Eccentrics cause the damage, but rack deadlifts are the best exercise for traps!" Sorry, you have to pick one, you can't have it both ways. Would you do a heavy weighted hold on a partial squat and expect growth?

-casualbb
 
casualbb said:
Sorry, you have to pick one, you can't have it both ways. Would you do a heavy weighted hold on a partial squat and expect growth?

-casualbb

Bad arguement. I forget the latin terminology but you paint things as black and white when they are not. As they say form dictates function

Anyway, consider the huge traps on olympic lifters, where the traps (on the back and especially noticeable under their ears) undergo no eccentric loading.
 
I'm just talking about the fastest way to grow muscle, perhaps synonymous with best. Of course powerlifters and olympic lifters have huge traps and may not perform eccentric movements. But it took them years to get there. I recall a study where one group performed only eccentrics, the other only concentrics. The eccentric group showed somewhere near 2x the hypertrophy group of the con. group. So yes, concentrics and statics DO cause growth. But would you rather have huge traps in one year, or two to three? Hence my recommendation to do shrugs.

-casualbb
 
casualbb said:
I'm just talking about the fastest way to grow muscle, perhaps synonymous with best. Of course powerlifters and olympic lifters have huge traps and may not perform eccentric movements. But it took them years to get there. I recall a study where one group performed only eccentrics, the other only concentrics. The eccentric group showed somewhere near 2x the hypertrophy group of the con. group. So yes, concentrics and statics DO cause growth. But would you rather have huge traps in one year, or two to three? Hence my recommendation to do shrugs.

-casualbb

Still ignoring the form dictates function credo eh? It's like if i told you that I want to get big, so i perform sets in the 30-50 rep range... you say it ain't gonna work right? It won't except for the quads. They have a unique makeup that is specific to them and their role in your daily activities (ie standing, walking, being on your feet). Infact the muscle undergoes very different morphological changes when through purely isometric stress than concentric or eccentric stressors. However the muscle and movements in question are unique. Traps are unique in that they are the support muscles for holding heavy things, and you must take that into consideration like the uniqueness of leg extensors. I know in general eccentrics are attributed to muscle growth, but the traps are working in multiphase near-isometric actions that are very unique on say farmers walk and deadlifts. Furthermore the studies cited are comparing apples to oranges, because the studies are on various aspects of one excercise where as we are comparing shrugs to other excercises here. deadlifts and Olympic lifts have a much higher peak force potential than shrugs do. Perhaps this is why guys like Poliquin, DC and other coaches all praise like deadlifts to increase the size of your traps. Seems too clear to me that if someone worked on snatch grip deads as their key lift for 6 months, vs someone who focused on shrugs, the guy doing snatch deads would get atleast equal trap development (as per how high up the traps are above shoulders) as the guy doin shrugs. But alas you don't have to agree with me.
 
All I have to say is that muscle is muscle, and it all responds the same way.

It's like if i told you that I want to get big, so i perform sets in the 30-50 rep range... you say it ain't gonna work right? It won't except for the quads.

I don't think it'll work for them either...unless you don't leave your bed for 2 weeks. The 30RM-50RM on some leg exercise generally isn't nearly enough to overcome the conditioning caused by simply walking around. But that doesn't mean there aren't some special cases. Case in point: astronauts. When they come out of zero-g, even the mere act of walking causes growth. Why? They're so deconditioned! A muscle will grow if loaded at unaccustomed levels.

deadlifts and Olympic lifts have a much higher peak force potential than shrugs do.

So what? You want to talk about comparing apples to oranges! Those are huge compound movements; a shrug is a minor isolation exercise. And it's not about peak force potential anyway, it's about eccentrics used with weights higher than the body's conditioned too. Traps aren't a new kind of muscle. Yes they're designed to hold big things, but like any muscle, they'll respond best to loaded eccentrics.

-casualbb
 
casualbb said:
All I have to say is that muscle is muscle, and it all responds the same way.
Not quite so simple as you make it....

casualbb said:
I don't think it'll work for them either...unless you don't leave your bed for 2 weeks. The 30RM-50RM on some leg exercise generally isn't nearly enough to overcome the conditioning caused by simply walking around.

That was not the assertion at all, that lifting 30-50RM fatigue the same muscle fibers as walking. The assertion is that the form of the body and thus the function of the leg extensors is unique and must therefore be accounted for. Quadracepts have an abnormally high level of fatigue resistant (slow twitch) muscle fibers on a large spectrum (its not simply a I IIA IIb there is a lot in between all). Poliquin notes the efficacy in Modern Trends of Strength Training volume 1 page 13, DC notes it recommending 20reps in squats, and has a test of sorts for 50RP'd reps on the leg press for hypertrophy. Platz squated for big time endurance and consequently had gigantic legs. This isn't to say that you must squat high rep, but it is definately viable in this case due to the unique nature of the leg extensors makeup because of their role based in physiological form. But all of this may be a moot point even as I believe your fundamental ideas on what causes hypertrophy may be a bit off. back to deadlifts....


casualbb said:

So what? You want to talk about comparing apples to oranges! Those are huge compound movements; a shrug is a minor isolation exercise.

This is not apples to oranges at all. THIS is the comparison afterall that you made
casualbb said:

I still maintain that if you really want bigger traps, a shrug beats a deadlift hands-down.

Which directly pits shrugs against deadlifts for trap development. The comparison is which is better for growth. Also recognize that in this statement you are breaking an empiricle rule that in general compound movements ARE better for growth than isolation movements.

casualbb said:


And it's not about peak force potential anyway, it's about eccentrics used with weights higher than the body's conditioned too.

Maybe, maybe not. It is not nearly as simple as you try to make it. you might want to check out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Supertraining/files/TUT.jpg If you have a higher peak tension, you have a higher potential for getting a training effect and thus likely higher potential for growth in the long run.

remember you said
casualbb said:
For growth, it's really only gonna hit the quads, hams and glutes. The other muscles are only involved isometrically, which isn't that great for muscle-building.

yet many strength coaches and most people on this board praise deadlifts for their ability to develop the traps among other body parts of the posterior chain. I would drop the restrictive notion that only eccentric stress causes growth realize that things are not nearly so black and white. I would also check out
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Supertraining/message/27655 for some interesting and related issues. (I am currently trying to figure out a good way to get those items accessible without necessitating that one joins the list to see them.):mix:
 
here is Message 27655, the article by the late Dr. Siff. It's a long one. Still dont know what to do about the graph though.
--------------------------------------------------
From: Mcsiff@a...
Date: Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:27 am
Subject: Time Under Tension Archives




Several years ago, I wrote a lengthy biomechanical critique of the popular
beliefs about Time Under Tension (TUT) on several discussion lists and it
drew some rather irate attacks from certain fitness professionals. Excerpts
from this old material may still be of interest to Supertrainers.

Charles Poliquin (and Ian King) both demanded on the Testosterone website to
see how scientific research by this "alleged exercise physiologist Mel Siff"
(Poliquin's words) applies his research outside the laboratory to matters of
muscle tension training - well, here is a fraction of the necessary
information. I trust that their real concern for obtaining this information
as a service to their readers means that they will place this article
unaltered or unabridged on that website - I will happily grant them
permission to do so, even if its length necessitates several issues..
Failing this, I will be forced to deduce that their comments were not meant
to further the quest for knowledge, but to play out some personal agendas.
[Note - Testo mag never published my response. MCS]

FROM THEORY TO PRACTICE

...... The following aspects of muscle force production are relevant to the
idea of tension time:

1. The way in which tension begins, is maintained and falls off - i.e, the
shape of the tension time curve determines the results of training more than
mere counts of phase timing. Thus, the time taken for the concentric phase
may not be as important as the time taken to reach peak tension or the time
for which close to peak tension is held or vice versa, depending on whether
your training history is one of traditional bodybuilding, explosive lifting,
'superslow', HIT, 'aerobics' or certain types of machine training.

The effect of a given tempo method is determined to a large extent by one's
existing nervous and neuromuscular patterns, so that what works with one
person does not necessarily work as well with another. The (short and
long-term) 'after-effects' phenomenon is relevant in this regard. What this
means is that, before contemplating using a given 'tempo', speed or
acceleration regime, one should assess the individual's training history and
individual adaptive characteristics.

For example, one would list which exercises and methods of conditioning every
muscle group have proved to be successful or unsuccessful at a given time in
eliciting specific training effects (objectively and subjectively). This
would include observations on after-effects such as soreness, stiffness,
functional range of movement, coordination, reaction time, rate of fatigue
and rate of recovery in simple field tests. We have all noticed that each
muscle group responds at a different rate and to a different extent to
similar loading - this method of individualisation at the outset enables one
to adapt any highly prescriptive 'tempo' or 'speed' guideline to the
individual.

This process of individualisation is central to much of the training in the
Supertraining book. Maybe now some folk will appreciate why I appear to have
been so critical of standard guidelines for 'average' clients (in many ways
it is insulting even to talk of 'average' clients, since all clients are
special individuals).

When I stayed in Russia, coaches and scientists constantly demanded to know
why American coaches were so preoccupied with specific 'guidelines', computer
periodised programs, early specialisation, endless lists of so-called
'plyometric drills' (note that the word 'drills' is very military and
prescriptive in nature) and so on. They were very amused when I pointed out
to them that we thought that THEY are far more drilled, authoritative and
mechanistic in approach.

What is important is an appropriate mix at any given time of objective and
subjective methods of training and restoration (this latter aspect is
essential to optimal growth and progress).

So - Step 1 - 'know thyself' via basic tests and adapt 'tempo' or 'speed'
training guidelines to suit your characteristics and training history. If
you are changing to a tempo scheme very different from what you are used to,
build in a suitable transition phase and periodically return to or cycle your
old training with the new in an overlapping scheme called 'conjugate or
linked system training', never forgetting to include 'general preparation'
methods for restoration and stabilisation.

2. There is a region of accentuated force production during every movement -
powerful operation in this zone is essential for optimal results. Sometimes
the use of momentum, via methods such as cheating or use of stored elastic
energy in a bar, can be helpful in this regard.

Other methods of concentrating effort in these accentuated regions include
use of the 'double-knee bend' or 'scoop' method in the power clean and
similar movements involving subtle realignment and re-flexion or re-extension
of joints during the movement. Most of the time these adjustments take place
so quickly that any attempt to time the tempo is superfluous. Instead one
learns an inner working feel for this via trial and error guided by the
coach's hands-on 'biofeedback'.

3. Tension below a certain minimal threshold level produces minimal
hypertrophy, and this minimum training tension level increase with training
growth, as does the shape of the tension time curve, so that one has to alter
the 'tempo' methods, use various 'shock' methods or even avoid tempo counting
for a suitable period.

4. Tempo or speed counting methods used for repeated movements need to take
account of FOUR stages of action:

- transition 1 (before eccentric phase begins)
- eccentric phase
- transition 2 (after eccentric phase)
- concentric phase

The transition phase is a very underrated part of all training, since it
contains some exceptionally important aspects of motor action, such as
prestretch, concentrated loading, explosive isometrics, ballistic
sensitisation, restoration, decay of acute training after-effects and
overflow signalling to other joints).

To give thorough details on each of these would cover many pages, but mere
awareness of these points should help many of you devise your own approaches
to 'playing with' each transition phase. In 'Supertraining' we stress the
central importance of these phases to all explosive and 'plyometric'
training. The 'mystery' of why Olympic lifting can produce significant
hypertrophy should be less mysterious now.

5. The patterns of tension development are different if a given exercise
involves several joints simultaneously, concurrently or sequentially. For
instance, a strict 'bicep curl' does not produce the same build up and level
of tension as a cheat curl which allows for shoulder and shoulder girdle
movement. Similarly powerlifting and weightlifting squats, irrespective of
depth, recruit the hip, knee and spinal muscles in different ways with
different patterns of tension production.

Explosive movements or oscillatory (bouncing) isometrics of the larger
muscles groups over their optimal reflexive region may stimulate growth more
powerfully than slower methods over the full range in some subjects
('Supertraining' 1998 Ch 4.2). For those who are familiar with the world of
aerobics dance, the Callan Pinckney's system of 'Callanetics' used lightly
loaded ballistic pulses based on this principle to produce physical changes
which some bodybuilders said was impossible to girlfriends and spouses who
did it!

6. Timing of tension or specific phases of any movement depends on processes
of conditioned reflexes, a concept pioneered by the great Russian
neurophysiologist and psychologist, Pavlov, whose work still remains
influential in Russian sports preparation. The speed of reflex activity and
reaction time depends on which sense is being used to stimulate the body, so
if one counts out or listens to a certain cadence via the sense of hearing or
learns a rhythm via touch or sight, the reaction timing is different and the
pattern of muscle tension is different.

During bygone days when I underwent dance training, taught aerobics and
studied for judges certification for aerobics championships, our teachers
often reminded us of the limitations of constantly relying on counting aloud
and cueing too early, too late or too frequently when new choreography had to
be acquired.

Sometimes use of the mirror was encouraged, sometimes it was discouraged
(later some of our colleagues went on to compare the different effects of
externalised imaging via mirror vs. internalised imaging via 'visualisation'
or imagined kinesthesis so that we could apply these methods more
effectively).

Several types of visual, auditory and tactile cueing were taught and some of
these, as well as the use of carefully sequenced excerpts or synthesized
phrases of music, can be used very productively in weight training (I prefer
the use of 'Walkmans' so as not to disturb other clients). There is no need
to count aloud or silently to establish tempo - suitable music can program
the nervous system and condition the reflexes very effectively so that one
can time production of muscle tension and relaxation almost precisely as you
wish it. I have also experimented with a popular system which agrees with
and draws information from certain Russian and Eastern methods (and good old
Pavlov, in particular) - it is called NLP (Neurolinguistic Programming).

Many types of rhythm and 'breaking' of rhythm may be used to add some
worthwhile and effective methods of muscle 'tempo' training - chat to a good
aerobics/dance instructor and you may be surprised to learn that they can
offer you far more than just a few aesthetic dance steps! Considerable
research has been done on the effects of music on human movement, health and
development and any department of dance kinesiology or music therapy will
have a wealth of information on how to use it for many forms of training.

I used various forms of musically choreographed and visualised martial arts
forms during the early phases of my own cardiac rehab and still perform some
of these as an integral part of restoration. Later, of course, all methods
of tempo timing had to be shelved in my return to weightlifting, since most
Olympic lifting training is too rapid for counting or cueing. Nevertheless,
one can use tactile, kinaesthetic and visual cues for timing important stages
of the movements.

7. Changes in the tension of so-called 'antagonist' muscles or in the muscles
of the opposite limb affect the patterns and level of tension in a given
muscle group (those familiar with physical therapy or PNF will know of the
reciprocal innervation or inhibition principle).

For example, if you wish to produce greater tension or prolong the tension in
a 'biceps curl' then all you have to do is do alternate DB curls and curl the
DB on one side while forcing out a powerful triceps extension backwards of
the body on the other side. Some bodybuilding instructors give this method
many names, but full credit must go to the pioneering physios who introduced
it many years ago into rehab.

The patterns of muscle tension development during elbow flexion and elbow
extension are different and therefore, tempo counting can offer only a weak
compromise in any movements where there is alternation of joint action or
region of force production changes.

8. Kinaesthetic and proprioceptive methods may be used to increase one's
awareness of tension changes in muscle. Following on from my research with
myotonometers and EMG apparatus, I adapted this work so that it could be used
simply and easily in bodybuilding training to enable the client to be able to
judge via biofeedback methods how tension was changing through any movement.

I simply used broad elasticised bands (with 'Velcro' fasteners in some cases
for certain limbs) placed over the muscle that we were interested in
exercising and let the client feel how the pressure from these limb cuffs
changed in response to joint angle, rate of movement, reflex activation and
concentration. At other times, I simply squeezed or palpated the muscles to
offer much the same feel and to alter pressure to serve as a much faster
method of timing the different phases of movement ('Supertraining' 1998 gives
some details of these methods of what we call 'kinaesthetic manipulation'.

9. Tension in an apparently discrete muscle group is not the result of
activity in that muscle alone, nor are the same groups of fibres recruited or
fatigued in the same sequence or pattern from rep to rep. Patterns of
activation tend to change all the time, a phenomenon which is known as
facultative pacemaking in the brain - and it is vital to remember that all
patterns of muscle tensioning are determined by nervous programs. Thus, one
has to pay careful attention to the transition phases, visualisation
(feedforward sensations and images) and kinaesthetic changes (mentioned
earlier) without evoking the well-known 'paralysis by analysis' phenomenon.

10. Training based upon discrete muscle fibre types is due to premature and
contradictory conclusions about fatiguing and preferentially using either one
group of 'fast twitch' fibres over another. Research has shown that the
supposedly 'normal' patterns of fibre recruitment may be altered by rate of
movement and the application of electrical stimulation. So, if you really
insist on recruiting some 'fast fatiguing' or 'high intensity' muscle fibres
first and other fibres in specific patterns at given tempos, go ahead and use
what some Iron Game fanatics have been doing over the years and apply an
appropriate pattern of electrical stimulation.

Due to FDA regulations, it is not my role to offer the whys and hows for
public consumption, but it should not be too difficult for anyone to find
athletes who have effectively managed to supplement their training with
simultaneous or sequential application of what physical therapists call
Faradic and Interferential currents. Some of my senior physio students
successfully carried out several projects on the hypertrophic and
strengthening effects of electrostimulation (ES). At the time we collected
over 500 references on the various aspects of ES and by now considerably more
will be available.

There are numerous other ways to 'play with', manipulate or vary patterns and
timing of muscle tension in any movement, but this lengthy collection should
suffice to show that there are some very practical ways of using the
scientific answers to my original 17 TUT questions [posed in an earlier
letter which caused all the disturbance MCS].

As Pete said: "......Mel or Yuri brought the subject of set length in the
first chapter in "Supertraining" with some basic parameters. As a side note,
I'm still on the first chapter. This book is huge!!".

The "Supertraining" book IS huge and attempts to integrate as much as
possible of the best Eastern and Western research so that one can acquire a
far more scientifically practical background to train more effectively for a
wide variety of sports, including bodybuilding and weightlifting. The above
lengthy application of muscle tension training methods is a tiny sample of
how we can borrow some training 'secrets' from the laboratories of the world
to grow bigger, stronger, more supple, more powerful and better performers in
many other ways.

Reference

Siff MC (2003) Supertraining (latest edition of the book referred to above)

-------------------------------------------
 
As to legs: Training for fiber type is really kinda silly because fatigue isn't the stimulus for growth anyway. Tension is all that really matters.

But all of this may be a moot point even as I believe your fundamental ideas on what causes hypertrophy may be a bit off.

The body can lower more weight than raise, so when lowering a load (eccentric), the load is distributed amongst fewer muscle fibers. The resulting higher tension per fiber causes microtrauma, causing growth.

What's "off" about that?

As to the Siff article, what's your point for quoting it? (I don't mean that hostile-ly...after reading it twice I just need some help seeing its application to the discussion)

-casualbb
 
I agree with casualbb, nothing grows traps faster than heavy barbell and dumbell shrugs. In my opinion, and looking what effect they had on me and my training partners, shrugs are much more efficient in building traps than deadlifts.
 
I think we are missing the point here, I find that deadlifts work the whole entire back side of me, traps to hams and everything in between.

While i feel it does make my own traps blow up, i think that we have to acknowledge that since it works the entire back it helps keep all the muscles back there in proportion.

Whats the point of having huge traps, and having a weak lower back / erectors?
 
Agreed. I think deadlifts are an essential exercise, I just think that people are expecting too much of them.

-casualbb
 
casualbb said:

As to the Siff article, what's your point for quoting it? (I don't mean that hostile-ly...after reading it twice I just need some help seeing its application to the discussion)

-casualbb

there's bits and pieces on hypertrophy and training stimulus hidden throughout. The graph was on a thread that followed up the article, and nicely summed up the concept i thought, but I am not sure what to do about it. I don't have any webspace to link to and i'm not platinum.

Anyway i think snatch grip deads hit traps even harder.... really helped my traps last fall
 
This isnt a flame. it is nasty and quite rude, But i say it with respect.

CasualBB. You post some good points. and you bring good arguments to every post you reply to or start.

But I have to tell you something. Gym science is different to book science. I have read so many articles on why this is better than that. dont do this because you wont grow etc etc.

but the truth is gym science is so hard to predict and understand, and only mildly reflects the books and websites you read.

Once you get a few years of exercises under your belt you will understand. Not to underestimate your knowledge or your training.....but you have quite a long way to go before you can be taken seriously.
 
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