Westside Training

[2.5 Years]

I've seen some things mentioned here and there about the Westside theories on this board but haven't seen any journals or anything - I am trying to learn all I can about Westside training before starting a routine - I've found an assortment of sites but am still having a hard time grasping some of the details.

If anyone has tried these methods before, can tell me if these layouts are a good example to at least start with (the only problem is I don't have bands - can get chains but not bands)

http://www.ironlife.com/mag/issue4/westside.htm
http://www.voimaharjoittelu.net/westsidestarttipaketti-viikot-13-a-23.html?language=en
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=46

I've also found the following with just with various info on the concept:
http://www.isu.edu/~andesean/SIMSEM.htm
http://www.jasonbrader.com/jasonbrader/listings/l0049.shtml
http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/article-westside-barbell.asp

If anyone here has had a journal using this please let me know - I tried a search but didn't see much just alot of people saying they use some ideas from the routines. I would love to hear about some people's experiences here because this is where I learned about the 5x5 and have a great amount of respect for individuals at this site.

Thank you

 

[Cynical Simian]

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=455992

 

[2.5 Years]

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=455992

Thanks Cynical - I think I started to read this in early Feb and had forgotten about it - has bits and peices that may help so it will be good to read the whole thing.

Thank you

 

[Guinness5.0]

You don't need bands/chains to have a good run. The important thing is to do an appropriate amount of work and to address YOUR weak points.

And there's enough info in the links you posted to write a book - what specifically is puzzling you?

ANd you may not need speed work, depending on your level of experience. What are your stats (ht/weight and relevant lifts)?

 

[silver_shadow]

good news, illuminati has just outlined the basic WSB template here:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=469668

 

[Chambewy20]

You can also go to elitefts.com and look under articles and search for templates. Also try going to the actual westside-barbell.com and hear it straight from the horses mouth.

There's a bit of a learning curve at first, then you just mold the model to what works best for you.

 

[Illuminati]

good news, illuminati has just outlined the basic WSB template here:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=469668

I didn't outline that. It's an article by Jim Wendler. I see a lot of Q's about WSB, and when I came across this article, I thought that it would be best to post it.

 

[2.5 Years]

You don't need bands/chains to have a good run. The important thing is to do an appropriate amount of work and to address YOUR weak points.

And there's enough info in the links you posted to write a book - what specifically is puzzling you?

ANd you may not need speed work, depending on your level of experience. What are your stats (ht/weight and relevant lifts)?

Guinness - actually I don't know my weak points and based off of a couple of articles it can take an expert to find some of them. However, I actually ran through a DE today for shits and giggles to see how things feel and while doing it I think I actually located weak points on bench and rows - it was actually very interesting and not something I would have ever picked up on normally.

To answer your questions:
32 yrs old
ht 5' 10"
wt 230 lbs
don't know body fat but probably in low 20's
lifting 3 years this Aug

relevant lifts - 1RM - the squat is the only thing I'm sure of:
Squat: 405 raw
DL: probably 425 - 405 raw has been done for 5x3
Bench: probably just over 300 - 275 has been done for 1x5


What was done today:
Speed Bench: 8x3 at 150 lbs
- what I don't understand about this is I read you need to wait a minute between each set - I waited 30 secs

CGBP: warm up and then 225 for 5x2
- a little tougher than I thought and could see where some problems were like not keeping the elbows in tight enough

Barbell Rows: 115 for 8x3
- very easy and confused on what it's doing

DB shoulder press: 25 for 6x8 and then 45 for 6x8
- obviously I meeded this up pretty good but it ended up taking a good amount out of me


I obviously need to do more research and am just beginning to feel this one out - it really does feel like the DF 5x5 was a good intro into this and now I can really get a much better understanding of how far I can push myself.

 

[Guinness5.0]

Don't do the rows DE style (light weight, done fast). Just do 'em noramle as assistance work. You'd only work one DE movement for upper body and one movement for lower body per week.

 

[Illuminati]

Guinness - actually I don't know my weak points and based off of a couple of articles it can take an expert to find some of them. However, I actually ran through a DE today for shits and giggles to see how things feel and while doing it I think I actually located weak points on bench and rows - it was actually very interesting and not something I would have ever picked up on normally.

To answer your questions:
32 yrs old
ht 5' 10"
wt 230 lbs
don't know body fat but probably in low 20's
lifting 3 years this Aug

relevant lifts - 1RM - the squat is the only thing I'm sure of:
Squat: 405 raw
DL: probably 425 - 405 raw has been done for 5x3
Bench: probably just over 300 - 275 has been done for 1x5


What was done today:
Speed Bench: 8x3 at 150 lbs
- what I don't understand about this is I read you need to wait a minute between each set - I waited 30 secs

CGBP: warm up and then 225 for 5x2
- a little tougher than I thought and could see where some problems were like not keeping the elbows in tight enough

Barbell Rows: 115 for 8x3
- very easy and confused on what it's doing

DB shoulder press: 25 for 6x8 and then 45 for 6x8
- obviously I meeded this up pretty good but it ended up taking a good amount out of me


I obviously need to do more research and am just beginning to feel this one out - it really does feel like the DF 5x5 was a good intro into this and now I can really get a much better understanding of how far I can push myself.

tell me where you are getting stuck in your bench and I will tell you what your weak point is, and how to improve it

 

[Chambewy20]

On the speed bench, you have to change grips every set, wide is pinky on ring, medium is thumbs with from smooth and close is index on smooth.

I won't waste my time trying to puke out my usual stuff, go here...

http://www.westside-barbell.com/articles.htm, read March 06 Bench Press workout, it's 6 week program that will help you get a feel for stuff. Should be able to do some of the stuff at least, if you have to, you can do the same bench movement for three weeks then switch, this early in the game, it will take a while for you to get used to switching up all the time.

Also don't think a crappy bench is weakness, it can just be a form issue and next thing you know, Kablammy, your a hoss.....

 

[2.5 Years]

tell me where you are getting stuck in your bench and I will tell you what your weak point is, and how to improve it

Thanks...

Went in today and didn't really have anything planned so I thought I'd see if I was able to hit 315 yet for a max - between doing heavier close grip yesterday and 3 sets of 10 *dips (bw) yesterday (forgot to list that previously) I'm hoping that's why I was only able to move the bar about 4 inches off my chest. Very discouraging because now I wonder if 300 is even possible.

Tried it 2x and based on going exceedingly heavy for me I was able to tell:
- when I lowered the bar my elbows went somewhat out like a chicken
- I touched right where my ribs meet in the center lower part of my ribcage
- on the way up it was good for 4 inches and then I felt massive tension in my hamstrings and lower back
- hamstrings and lower back are still tight
- no air in my belly
- did not breath out
- no push in my feet

If you can help with any of this it's appreciated.

Thanks





* After doing the 3 sets I did recall that Louie does not like dips because of the strain on the shoulder girdle so I got that wrong

 

[TheKing03]

I did west side for about 3 months with no bands or chains and got really good gains. Guinness, speed work is one of the most important concepts of this program, dynamic effort training is half of the west side program. 2.5 years, you should try suspended bech as your max effort bench lift it helped my bench go WAY up its the hardest chest exercise ever.

 

[Guinness5.0]

You may have relatively weak lats based in what you described - it sounds to me like you got stuck and shot your elbows out b/c the lats weren''t up to the task.

I'm curious to see what Illuminati says though - he def. knows this stuff better than I.

 

[2.5 Years]

You may have relatively weak lats based in what you described - it sounds to me like you got stuck and shot your elbows out b/c the lats weren''t up to the task.

I'm curious to see what Illuminati says though - he def. knows this stuff better than I.

Thanks for the info Guinness - that may be the case - the tensions in hams and lower back has me really curious. As for lat strength I guess that's somewhat difficult to judge - if it means anything (which it probably doesn't) I don't have much problem hitting 3x10/12 wide grip pullups which I always assumes was mostly lats.

Hopefully Illuminati has some other ideas too.

Thanks

 

[2.5 Years]

Why is it that in this article:
http://www.isu.edu/~andesean/SIMSEM.htm
Louie supposedly said there must be 72 hrs between DE (dynamic effort/speed work) and ME (Maximum Effort):

Points on the Above Weekly Schedule:

* There are 72 hours between each speed day and its corresponding maximum effort day.


But in this one:
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=46
they run the bench DE and ME within 48hrs of each other

Sunday - ME squat/deadlift

ME exercise - Close stance bent over good morning - work up to a single or triple
Assistance - Glute - Ham raise - 5 sets of 8-10 reps
Abs - Standing abs - 4 sets of 8-12
Obliques - Dumbbell side bends - 3 sets of 4-8 reps
Reverse hypers - 3 sets of 8-12 reps

Tuesday - Speed bench

Speed Bench - 8 sets of 3 reps at 60% of your one rep max
Pressing movement - Closegrip 3 board press - 3 sets of 5
Extension - Elbows out extensions - 3 sets of 6-10 reps
Lat work - T-bar rows - 4 sets of 5-8 reps
Shoulder work - A few light sets of side laterals and front raises

Thursday - Speed squat

Speed squat - 10 sets of 2 reps at 50% of your one rep max
Speed deadlift - 6 singles of 60% of one rep max
Assistance - Zercher squats - 5 sets of 6-8 reps
Abs - Decline sit-ups with 5 second pause at bottom - 4 sets of 8-12 reps
Obliques - Dumbbell side bends - 3 sets of 4-8 reps
Reverse hypers - 3 sets of 6-8 reps

Friday - ME bench

ME exercise - Closegrip Incline press - work up to max single
Pressing movement - floor press - 3 sets of 5
Extension - Skull crushers - 3 sets of 6-10
Lat work - T-bar rows - 4 sets of 5-8
Light shoulder work


Does it matter whether it's 48 or 72?

 

[Illuminati]

I did west side for about 3 months with no bands or chains and got really good gains. Guinness, speed work is one of the most important concepts of this program, dynamic effort training is half of the west side program. 2.5 years, you should try suspended bech as your max effort bench lift it helped my bench go WAY up its the hardest chest exercise ever.

unless he's wearing a shirt, Suspended bench might not benefit him that much

 

[Illuminati]

Thanks...

Went in today and didn't really have anything planned so I thought I'd see if I was able to hit 315 yet for a max - between doing heavier close grip yesterday and 3 sets of 10 *dips (bw) yesterday (forgot to list that previously) I'm hoping that's why I was only able to move the bar about 4 inches off my chest. Very discouraging because now I wonder if 300 is even possible.

Tried it 2x and based on going exceedingly heavy for me I was able to tell:
- when I lowered the bar my elbows went somewhat out like a chicken
- I touched right where my ribs meet in the center lower part of my ribcage
- on the way up it was good for 4 inches and then I felt massive tension in my hamstrings and lower back
- hamstrings and lower back are still tight
- no air in my belly
- did not breath out
- no push in my feet

If you can help with any of this it's appreciated.

Thanks

It kind of sounds like you are pushing yourself too hard. Am I correct in reading that you worked heavy one day w/close grip, and then turned around the next day, and tried to max w/315? This would be part of the problem. You are not giving yourself enough time to heal and rest.

Your first point you made (arms went out like a chicken) is a good indicator of a form issue. When you read about WSB, you will hear a lot of people say that you need to tuck your elbows. This is very much true. they dont need to stay tucked for the entire lift. When lowering the bar you need to start turning your elbows in. This will do a couple things. One, it will get your tri's more involved with the lift (they are a major player in pressing power.) It will also help you to keep your upper back tighter.
Sounds like you are hitting a good spot on your chest. As long as its comfortable for you. Some generally, you will see bigger guys hit more towards their gut, simply because they can take inches off their stroke, and also b/c of the shirt that they are wearing.
you said that you were good till about 4 inches off your chest, and then struggled. This means that your tri's are lagging, and you need to bring your strength up in this area. I would address this with 2 board presses, and rack lockouts, with the safety bar set at 3-4inches off your chest.
What about your speed? were you quick to your sticking point?
Also, learn to drive with your feet. this will do A LOT for you. Practice learning how to use your leg drive with lighter weight, as its hard to learn this when you are using max weight. It might take a little bit, but you will get the hang of it, and will be able to get a considerable amount of leg drive when pressing.

 

[Devastation]

Why is it that in this article:
http://www.isu.edu/~andesean/SIMSEM.htm
Louie supposedly said there must be 72 hrs between DE (dynamic effort/speed work) and ME (Maximum Effort):

Points on the Above Weekly Schedule:

* There are 72 hours between each speed day and its corresponding maximum effort day.


But in this one:
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=46
they run the bench DE and ME within 48hrs of each other

Sunday - ME squat/deadlift

ME exercise - Close stance bent over good morning - work up to a single or triple
Assistance - Glute - Ham raise - 5 sets of 8-10 reps
Abs - Standing abs - 4 sets of 8-12
Obliques - Dumbbell side bends - 3 sets of 4-8 reps
Reverse hypers - 3 sets of 8-12 reps

Tuesday - Speed bench

Speed Bench - 8 sets of 3 reps at 60% of your one rep max
Pressing movement - Closegrip 3 board press - 3 sets of 5
Extension - Elbows out extensions - 3 sets of 6-10 reps
Lat work - T-bar rows - 4 sets of 5-8 reps
Shoulder work - A few light sets of side laterals and front raises

Thursday - Speed squat

Speed squat - 10 sets of 2 reps at 50% of your one rep max
Speed deadlift - 6 singles of 60% of one rep max
Assistance - Zercher squats - 5 sets of 6-8 reps
Abs - Decline sit-ups with 5 second pause at bottom - 4 sets of 8-12 reps
Obliques - Dumbbell side bends - 3 sets of 4-8 reps
Reverse hypers - 3 sets of 6-8 reps

Friday - ME bench

ME exercise - Closegrip Incline press - work up to max single
Pressing movement - floor press - 3 sets of 5
Extension - Skull crushers - 3 sets of 6-10
Lat work - T-bar rows - 4 sets of 5-8
Light shoulder work


Does it matter whether it's 48 or 72?

there are 72 hours between corresponding DE and ME days on that schedule, not 48 (DE bench and ME bench, DE lower body and ME lower body)

 

[Lesaman69]

Hi.

A few days ago, i saw a table with methods that fry the cns. In this table there were:

DE method.
ME method.
Lifts above 90% 1RM.
and so on.

I can´t remember either the link, nor the other methods. Can any body help me? I wanna look over the table again, but can´t find it. Does anybody knows the table, or other listings which fry the cns over time?

 

[Chambewy20]

Why is it that in this article:
http://www.isu.edu/~andesean/SIMSEM.htm
Louie supposedly said there must be 72 hrs between DE (dynamic effort/speed work) and ME (Maximum Effort):

Points on the Above Weekly Schedule:

* There are 72 hours between each speed day and its corresponding maximum effort day.


But in this one:
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=46
they run the bench DE and ME within 48hrs of each other

Sunday - ME squat/deadlift

ME exercise - Close stance bent over good morning - work up to a single or triple
Assistance - Glute - Ham raise - 5 sets of 8-10 reps
Abs - Standing abs - 4 sets of 8-12
Obliques - Dumbbell side bends - 3 sets of 4-8 reps
Reverse hypers - 3 sets of 8-12 reps

Tuesday - Speed bench

Speed Bench - 8 sets of 3 reps at 60% of your one rep max
Pressing movement - Closegrip 3 board press - 3 sets of 5
Extension - Elbows out extensions - 3 sets of 6-10 reps
Lat work - T-bar rows - 4 sets of 5-8 reps
Shoulder work - A few light sets of side laterals and front raises

Thursday - Speed squat

Speed squat - 10 sets of 2 reps at 50% of your one rep max
Speed deadlift - 6 singles of 60% of one rep max
Assistance - Zercher squats - 5 sets of 6-8 reps
Abs - Decline sit-ups with 5 second pause at bottom - 4 sets of 8-12 reps
Obliques - Dumbbell side bends - 3 sets of 4-8 reps
Reverse hypers - 3 sets of 6-8 reps

Friday - ME bench

ME exercise - Closegrip Incline press - work up to max single
Pressing movement - floor press - 3 sets of 5
Extension - Skull crushers - 3 sets of 6-10
Lat work - T-bar rows - 4 sets of 5-8
Light shoulder work


Does it matter whether it's 48 or 72?

I would work up to a heavy triple on the G.M.'s, just my opinion, usually the first your a littel timid, you'll usually hit more depth on the 2nd or 3rd... I would put another lowerback movement as an assistance, maybe a romanian deadlifte, zercher squats, something like that. I GHR's should be done on every lower day no matter what, if you have one that is... everything else looks cool, I've never tried close grip inclines, I suck at them bad anyways, maybe I oughta try them...

Wouldn't worry about the 48 or 72 dependant upon your schedule, listen to your body, just make sure you got things in the right order like Dev alluded to, have fun dude....

 

[2.5 Years]

It kind of sounds like you are pushing yourself too hard. Am I correct in reading that you worked heavy one day w/close grip, and then turned around the next day, and tried to max w/315? This would be part of the problem. You are not giving yourself enough time to heal and rest.

Your first point you made (arms went out like a chicken) is a good indicator of a form issue. When you read about WSB, you will hear a lot of people say that you need to tuck your elbows. This is very much true. they dont need to stay tucked for the entire lift. When lowering the bar you need to start turning your elbows in. This will do a couple things. One, it will get your tri's more involved with the lift (they are a major player in pressing power.) It will also help you to keep your upper back tighter.
Sounds like you are hitting a good spot on your chest. As long as its comfortable for you. Some generally, you will see bigger guys hit more towards their gut, simply because they can take inches off their stroke, and also b/c of the shirt that they are wearing.
you said that you were good till about 4 inches off your chest, and then struggled. This means that your tri's are lagging, and you need to bring your strength up in this area. I would address this with 2 board presses, and rack lockouts, with the safety bar set at 3-4inches off your chest.
What about your speed? were you quick to your sticking point?
Also, learn to drive with your feet. this will do A LOT for you. Practice learning how to use your leg drive with lighter weight, as its hard to learn this when you are using max weight. It might take a little bit, but you will get the hang of it, and will be able to get a considerable amount of leg drive when pressing.

Thanks again - I'll try out your suggestions - I'm trying the Westside first time officially this week - we'll see how things go - it will be several weeks of feeling it out but I'm at the point of a general understanding and am eager to get the ball rolling

 

[2.5 Years]

I would work up to a heavy triple on the G.M.'s, just my opinion, usually the first your a littel timid, you'll usually hit more depth on the 2nd or 3rd... I would put another lowerback movement as an assistance, maybe a romanian deadlifte, zercher squats, something like that. I GHR's should be done on every lower day no matter what, if you have one that is... everything else looks cool, I've never tried close grip inclines, I suck at them bad anyways, maybe I oughta try them...

Wouldn't worry about the 48 or 72 dependant upon your schedule, listen to your body, just make sure you got things in the right order like Dev alluded to, have fun dude....

Thanks Chambewy - I'm sure the schedule is important but as you say it's much more important to listen to what you can handle - thanks again

 

[Illuminati]

Thanks again - I'll try out your suggestions - I'm trying the Westside first time officially this week - we'll see how things go - it will be several weeks of feeling it out but I'm at the point of a general understanding and am eager to get the ball rolling

only other advice that I'll give you, is when you are starting off. don't add all kinds of extra work. you will quickly find that you are over training. stick to the basic format for several months.