Very shut down, PLEASE READ

[Anakin2]

First of all, my account name Anakin was erased because I didn't have access to the internet for a month.

I did a 3-weeker which ended on the first week of december and then I followed up with proviron at 25mg/day and herbs like avena.

My blood test on January 6, exactly 1 month after my cycle ended:

testosterone: 87 (yes, on a 245-1000 range)
free test: 24 (8-27 range)
estrogen: less than 20 (not detectable below 56)
LH: NOT DETECTABLE
FSH: NOT DETECTABLE
prolactin: not detectable

This is where I might have screwed up:
-I started taking cabergoline 2mg per week with my post cycle and didn't drop it until i saw the lab results
-I didn't drop the proviron until last week. COULD PROVIRON KEEP ME SUPPRESSED???
-Perhaps most importantly, my natural test was only about 400 and LH and FSH were only about 1.1-1.3 (on a scale of .7 to 10).

PLEASE HELP with any comments. I've dropped the proviron and cabergoline and I plan to get blood work in 2 weeks. Notice that free test was exceptionally high even though I didn't take proviron the morning that my blood was drawn, and also that prolactin fell below the normal range (2.5 to 17) with cabergoline. I had elevated prolactin before, around 24 ng/mL.

 

[40butpumpin]

how old are you? if you're <35, i'd say get some hcg and run it for 2 weeks at 500iu ed and the get more blood work done. if it helps a little, but not completely, run it again after 4 weeks off of it. i would do that 3 or 4 times, just like that, and keep getting re-tested. if you're older (like >35) or the above doesn't work, hrt may be something to think about. but either way, if you have that documented with a uro doc, you should be able to get hrt covered by insurance. btw what did you use for the 3 weeks that shut you down so hard?

 

[JR SYD]

My best advice to you is to use clomid. Cycle clomid for two months and it should do the trick. My levels were very low as well after being on for two years straight. For the first month i did 200mg/day for the four weeks...for the 5th week i did 150mg/day week 6 did 100mg/day week 7 50mg/day week 8 50mg eod. It worked like a charm and now i'm back to normal. Another thing i found useful in all my experience was tribulus and yohimbe combined together to get the old libido stimulated once again. They are hands down the best natural supplement i have ever used. hope this helps...

 

[Vicious cycle]

First of all, my account name Anakin was erased because I didn't have access to the internet for a month.

I did a 3-weeker which ended on the first week of december and then I followed up with proviron at 25mg/day and herbs like avena.

My blood test on January 6, exactly 1 month after my cycle ended:

testosterone: 87 (yes, on a 245-1000 range)
free test: 24 (8-27 range)
estrogen: less than 20 (not detectable below 56)
LH: NOT DETECTABLE
FSH: NOT DETECTABLE
prolactin: not detectable

This is where I might have screwed up:
-I started taking cabergoline 2mg per week with my post cycle and didn't drop it until i saw the lab results
-I didn't drop the proviron until last week. COULD PROVIRON KEEP ME SUPPRESSED???
-Perhaps most importantly, my natural test was only about 400 and LH and FSH were only about 1.1-1.3 (on a scale of .7 to 10).

PLEASE HELP with any comments. I've dropped the proviron and cabergoline and I plan to get blood work in 2 weeks. Notice that free test was exceptionally high even though I didn't take proviron the morning that my blood was drawn, and also that prolactin fell below the normal range (2.5 to 17) with cabergoline. I had elevated prolactin before, around 24 ng/mL.

I was shutdown harder, like 47 on total test (I have a post somewhere about it). All better now. I was really worried like you seem to be and I'm "older" to boot. I ran clomid 50mg/ED for 4 weeks and I was tip top again!

Best of Luck -VC-

 

[alltraps]

am i reading this right? your total test is 87 and free test is 24? in that case, the free test is very good

 

[muscleup]

am i reading this right? your total test is 87 and free test is 24? in that case, the free test is very good

Thats what I was thinking

 

[junk]

Vicious cycle when you said "was shutdown harder, like 47 on total test (I have a post somewhere about it). All better now. I was really worried like you seem to be and I'm "older" to boot. I ran clomid 50mg/ED for 4 weeks and I was tip top again!"

When did you make the blood test that revealed the low test level ? Didn't you run a PCT after your cycle ? Or ran the PCT only after finding out your test levels were extremely low.

Did you make a nother test after the 4 weeks of clomid (waiting at least 2 weeks)

 

[alltraps]

total test is pretty much irrelavant. free test is important for all male funstions so you have no worries.

 

[serbyte]

I think that it is in part due to the proviron elevating free test, hence making your body lower overall production, because it sees such high levels of free test. Im not sure exactly how this works, but its just an idea.

 

[JonP]

Proviron is supressive so I'm not sure why you decided to run it post cycle

 

[Anakin2]

40but: I'll be 21 in 2 weeks. I don't want to use hcg because it is suppressive, isn't it? I thought it was just used to reduce the crash and bring the nuts back to size before the hypothalamus and pituitary recover. My cycle was: 400mg primo/week; 250mg test on weeks 1 and 2; dbol week 1; winny weeks 2 and 3. I don't want to go on hrt at such an early age.

JR SYD: aren't those clomid dosages overkill?

vicious: that's really encouraging... i'll try clomid at a low dose if things don't get better in 2 weeks, but i'm scared of the large number of people that don't react well to clomid and the harsh sides.

alltraps and muscleup: yes i know 24 is amazing for free test... before my cycle my free test was 17 with total test 430. it was probably due to the proviron, but that would mean that it has a long half life because i hadn't taken it for 24hrs before the blood was drawn. i'm curious to see where it will be in 2 weeks because i'm sticking to avena sativa only.

my theory right now is that the high level of androgens provided by proviron is keeping me shut down. maybe proviron isn't suppressive if you aren't suppressed, but it might prevent recovery if you're already suppressed.

i was feeling great with no symptoms of low test (probably due to the high free test) and looking better than ever. sex was also better than ever up to a week before blood work... in fact, what led me to get blood drawn was that one night my boner just went limp in the middle of it. it's hard for me to evaluate my status right now in an objective manner though because i'm a bit depressed right now due to other factors (i had to come back to school, and leave back my girlfriend and best friends).

 

[muscleup]

Proviron is supressive so I'm not sure why you decided to run it post cycle

NOPE...Not true

 

[40butpumpin]

I don't want to use hcg because it is suppressive, isn't it?

not at 500iu ed for 2 weeks bro. if your nuts are shrunk, or you have evidence to show they are inoperative, it is in order. and i would think you have enough evidence to show your nuts are inoperative. consider using the clomid after the hcg. there's plenty of posts on here that describe the correct dosage, but you start high and then you taper down with clomid (like from 300mg down to 50mg; 1 day, then three consecutive weeks at decreasing doses). good luck my man and keep us posted on what you decide to do as well as how it works out for you.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

NOPE...Not true

Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 1984 Jun; 6(6): 331-7. Related Articles, Links


The effects of mesterolone, a male sex hormone in depressed patients (a double blind controlled study).

Itil TM, Michael ST, Shapiro DM, Itil KZ.

Based on computer EEG (CEEG) profiles, in high doses, antidepressant properties of mesterolone, a synthetic androgen, were predicted. In a double-blind placebo controlled study, the clinical effects of 300-450 mg daily mesterolone were investigated in 52 relatively young (age range 26-53 years, mean 42.7 years) male depressed outpatients. During 6 weeks of mesterolone treatment, there was a significant improvement of depressive symptomatology. However, since an improvement was also established during the placebo treatment, no statistically appreciable difference in the therapeutic effects of mesterolone was established compared to placebo. Mesterolone treatment significantly decreased both plasma testosterone and protein bound testosterone levels. Patients with high testosterone levels prior to treatment seem to have had more benefit from mesterolone treatment than patients with low testosterone levels. The degree of improvement weakly correlated to the decrease of testosterone levels during mesterolone treatment.


Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1977 May; 6(5): 339-45. Related Articles, Links


The hormone response to a synthetic androgen (mesterolone) in oligospermia.

Jackaman FR, Ansell ID, Ghanadian R, McLoughlin PV, Lewis JG, Chisholm GD.

Forty subfertile men with oligospermia were treated with a synthetic androgen (Mesterolone). The effect of the drug was evaluated by measuring serum testosterone, luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and analysing the semen before and after treatment. The results demonstrated that in twenty-three patients treated for 6-9 months there was a significant decrease in serum testosterone (P less than 0.01); the means +/- SEM before and after treatment were 17.05 +/- 0.95 and 14.7 +/- 0.95 (nmol/l serum) respectively. There was a pronounced increase in serum LH (P less than 0.01), the values being 2.73 +/- 0.26 and 3.61 +/- 0.3 (u/l) respectively. However, no significant difference was found in serum FSH before and after treatment. The sperm concentration showed a variable response to treatment. In twenty-one patients there was either no change or worsening in the sperm concentration, whereas in nineteen patients an improvement was observed. The analysis of variance of sperm concentration and motility for the periods before and after treatment, for all the patients, showed no significant difference in the sperm concentration F1.145 = 2.82 (P=0.1).

----------------
with respect to the second study the increase in LH is likely due to decrease in estrogen (since MES does not aromatize)

 

[Anakin2]

Clomid

Isn't anyone surprised by the possibility that proviron might be suppressive? My LH and FSH are undetectable, as in NONE.

I will get bloodwork in 2 weeks, and if it doesn't improve I'll start hcg and clomid but I pray to god that Nelson is wrong about clomid and that it really does work.

Doesn't clomid work based on the hypothesis that elevated estrogen keeps you suppressed? In my case, estrogen is not elevated at all, so would it serve its purpose?

Assuming I do use clomid, what would be a conservative dosage and minimum duration of administration? 300mg day 1, followed by 50mg per day for 2 weeks?

Yes my nuts are substantially atrophied so hcg would help out, so how about 500iu per day for 1 week? I know most people go for 2 weeks but if nuts are back to normal in 1 week, can I stop?

How long after or into hcg administration does clomid use begin?

How much nolva should I have at hand to use just in case hcg gives me gyno symptoms?

I'm asking this because I want to do my shopping right away.

 

[Anakin2]

By the way, this thread advocates only 25mg clomid per day:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...page=20&highlight=clomid therapy&pagenumber=1

 

[Vicious cycle]

vicious: that's really encouraging... i'll try clomid at a low dose if things don't get better in 2 weeks, but i'm scared of the large number of people that don't react well to clomid and the harsh sides.

50mg everyday for at least 4 weeks. With that dose, you won't have any sides from it and it should fix you right up. Forget all that herbal hokas pokas, go with the proven winner.

 

[40butpumpin]

Re: Clomid

Isn't anyone surprised by the possibility that proviron might be suppressive? My LH and FSH are undetectable, as in NONE.

I will get bloodwork in 2 weeks, and if it doesn't improve I'll start hcg and clomid but I pray to god that Nelson is wrong about clomid and that it really does work.

Doesn't clomid work based on the hypothesis that elevated estrogen keeps you suppressed? In my case, estrogen is not elevated at all, so would it serve its purpose?

Assuming I do use clomid, what would be a conservative dosage and minimum duration of administration? 300mg day 1, followed by 50mg per day for 2 weeks?

Yes my nuts are substantially atrophied so hcg would help out, so how about 500iu per day for 1 week? I know most people go for 2 weeks but if nuts are back to normal in 1 week, can I stop?

How long after or into hcg administration does clomid use begin?

How much nolva should I have at hand to use just in case hcg gives me gyno symptoms?

I'm asking this because I want to do my shopping right away.

gyno occurs from estrogen dominance. i don't see why you'd have an adundance of estrogen in your body so as to cause gyno. you're young so you don't have an inordinate amount of aromatase enzyme, and you're taking about relatively little testosterone.

my information states 4 days after stopping the hcg to begn the clomid, however, i would use your nuts as a guide, when they increase to normal size, stop the hcg and start on the clomid.

as far as dose for clomid, again, according to my information it is optimally taken 300mg day 1, 200mg for a week, 100mg for a week, and finally 50mg for a week.

good luck man.

 

[Mr. Black]

I would say that at 1 month out you have nothing to worry about. Although you appear to be unusually sensitive to a mild 3-weeker, everyone's recovery is different. Once My test levels (total) was 50ng/dl 2.5 months after my last shot of deca. Eventually after another couple of months, things began to normalize. If your levels are still down 6 months off, then might be the time to arrange some more rounds of PCT.

 

[nadr7891]

Proviron is supressive so I'm not sure why you decided to run it post cycle

first of all, most studies i've seen claim Proviron to be only mildly suppressive, if at all, and most personal experiences i've seen posted on this and other boards intimate that all it does is help them maintain a healthy libido post-cycle.

second of all, dude wanted to be able to get hard ons (as alluded to in first paragraph).

<b>Anakin</b>: i can't believe you had testicular atrophy on a 3-week cycle. that scares me. i had absolutely neither post-cycle crash nor atrophy during or after my 3-week cycle and i used essentially the same compunds as you did. i'm on a long cycle (10 weeks) now and the results have not exceeded the ones i got on my 3-week cycle so far. from here on out for me it's high-dose, 3-week cycles with more androgenic compounds. they work just as well and for me it's easier to be more strict with my diet and training for such short periods. i don't get bored (i know, this is a character flaw not all of you have). maybe i'm ADD. Short cycles for the Adult ADD all the way!

Nadr

 

[OMEGA]

http://www.anabolicfitness.net/library/recovery.htm

 

[Anakin2]

Thanks a lot 40but and vicious cycle.

By the way, does anyone think that cabaser (cabergoline) might have inhibited my recovery by lowering prolactin too much?

I'm getting the hcg and clomid right away, but I will start using them in 10 days (after getting new bloodwork to see if anything improved by dropping proviron).

Nadr, my nuts shrank really fast, as in the first 5 days of the cycle. I should probably stay away from steroids because I have very low natural LH and FSH (only around 1.1 to 1.3 in a scale that goes from about .7 to 10). I'm glad I was conservative in my experiment.

So:
hcg 500iu per day for 2 weeks (stop sooner if nuts return to normal by the end of week 1)
start clomid 4 days after stopping hcg, and do it for 4 weeks (I'll try to read some more before I decide to go for either the high dose 300-200-100 or just 50mg.

 

[Anakin2]

By the way, my strength is exactly the same as it was at the end of the cycle except for legs and back, where I have lost some ground.

 

[JonP]

first of all, most studies i've seen claim Proviron to be only mildly suppressive, if at all, and most personal experiences i've seen posted on this and other boards intimate that all it does is help them maintain a healthy libido post-cycle.

Nadr

I understand that, but you're going to have to come off eventually. You're just delaying the inevitable

 

[nadr7891]

I understand that, but you're going to have to come off eventually. You're just delaying the inevitable

correct. that's why i do 25mg during cycle, 50mg first week PCT, then 25mg third week then off. hopefully then i'll want to fuck without it but if not she can just suffer.

Nadr