Very Important! 10 Year Anniv. Of Waco Slaughter! Do Not Forget!!!

[p0ink]

Not taking up a cause p0ink...of all people you complain about some pretty inane things... like women trying to get in to an all male golf course...I mean really... talk about irrelevant...especially compared to this.

This is a very clear case of gross abuse of power and slaughter of dissidents by a government agency... that should disturb you in it's implications...if it does not, than I cannot help you.

But I don't understand your selectiveness when it comes to the constitution.

You're always complaining (rightfully) about violations of it by leftists and occasionally when you remove the republicon penis, the righties too...

Where in the constitution does it say that it is acceptable to deny a group of people due process by murdering them because they shot BATF agents p0ink?

Also p0ink (and the rest), ALL SURVIVING BRANCH DAVIDIAN MEMBERS WERE CLEARED OF CAPITAL MURDER CHARGES FOR THE BATF AGENTS! Why do you think that is?...If they had fired first, this would not have been the case! It was called SELF DEFENSE!

i dont feel bad for people who get what they deserve. And in the case of these people, they got it.

the shit i post is current stuff that shows how wrong the left really is, not some sympathy shit for something that happened 10 years ago to a bunch of fucking freak cult members.

seriously, these people gave up their rights when they started shooting at the law enforcement officials and killing them. there is no provision in the constitution that makes it legal to murder law enforcement, simply because you feel your rights have been violated.

when you feel your rights have been violated, you take it to the courts. you dont pull out machine guns and grenades thinking that will solve all of your problems.

the cult leaders should not have only been brought up on charges for mudering law enforcment, they should also be held responsible for those kids being burned alive. THEY PUT THEM IN THAT POSITION.

and sure, these people were cleared of charges, but not because they were 'defending' themselves. it was more likely due to lack of evidence, or these people only being involved by having their presence there; not squeezing triggers.

and if you want to talk about constitutional rights being abused over this case, lets talk about how these people semi-responsible for the leftists/democrats cracking down on law abiding gun owners. lets talk about how their actions 10 years ago made it harder for the rest of us to own firearms.

this was not abuse of power. ruby ridge was an abuse of power.

and my original post was simply a question. i think you might have taken it the wrong way.

 

[The Almighty]

I don't believe so Almighty, but I'll doublecheck for ya..... *"Self Defense"* is not what would have gotten them off if that had been the case the case...as I understand it the Jury believed they had acted in self defense...not that there was not sufficient evidence against them.

Ah, ok. If it was actually stated in court that it was self defense then that is a different story.

 

[Frackal]

Texas Penal Code, Subchapter C, Article 9.31, entitled "Self Defense" states: "The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified (1) if, before the actor officers any resistance, the peace officer uses, or attempts to use, greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search and, (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's use of or attempted use of greater force than necessary."

Jury Foreman, Sarah Bain, Speaks
After the acquittal, the jury foreman, Sarah Bain, issued a statement saying:
"We jurors said from the beginning that we had the wrong people on trial. The ones who should have been on trial were the ones who planned the raid and insisted on going on with it even though they knew that the element of surprise had been lost." (quoted in press release issued by Mt. Carmel Independent Investigation Advocates, PO Box 9050, Waco, Texas 76714).

 

[The Almighty]

Texas Penal Code, Subchapter C, Article 9.31, entitled "Self Defense" states: "The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified (1) if, before the actor officers any resistance, the peace officer uses, or attempts to use, greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search and, (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's use of or attempted use of greater force than necessary."

Jury Foreman, Sarah Bain, Speaks
After the acquittal, the jury foreman, Sarah Bain, issued a statement saying:
"We jurors said from the beginning that we had the wrong people on trial. The ones who should have been on trial were the ones who planned the raid and insisted on going on with it even though they knew that the element of surprise had been lost." (quoted in press release issued by Mt. Carmel Independent Investigation Advocates, PO Box 9050, Waco, Texas 76714).

Well my face is certainly red. I retract my statement.

 

[Frackal]

p0ink I am not going to argue this triviality on this thread with you...we can start a new thread if you want...I'm sure I can pull up plenty of examples of you digging up past stuff about liberals that is not completely current.....ignoring history anyway is not wise in my opinion..

You guys seemed to be amazingly focused on the fact that these were "Cult members" (ooooooooh) and seem to have equally amazing ability to ignore the fact that they were murdered.

 

[Frackal]

Well my face is certainly red. I retract my statement.

No problem bro, we're all just trying to learn and discuss here...

 

[bwood]

Shortly before 6:00 a.m. on April 19, 1993, the FBI notified the Davidians by telephone that it would begin inserting tear gas into the Compound. Using Abrams tanks and Bradley armored vehicles, FBI agents began firing tear gas rounds into the Compound. At the same time, loud speakers broadcast the message that the FBI was inserting tear gas, that it was not an assault, that the Davidians should not fire on the tanks or fire would be returned, and that the Davidians should surrender and leave the Compound. Sometime during the tear gas insertion, the telephone line into the Compound was severed by one of the armored vehicles. When no Davidians emerged from the Compound, the tanks began ramming the Compound building to insert the tear gas rounds further inside. Still no Davidians left the Compound and the insertion continued. The use of the tanks not only destroyed exterior walls, but caused damage to the interior of the building including smashing some staircases and blocking some interior access, including the doorway that led to the bus buried beneath the Compound. The tear gas attack continued [*446] for approximately six hours, but still no Davidians exited the Compound.

Shortly before noon, a fire began in a corner of the Compound. Fire was then detected at two separate locations. Because of the nature of the building and the presence of high winds, the fire quickly spread to all areas of the Compound and an explosion completed the destruction at approximately 12:20 p.m. n8 The local fire department was not permitted to approach the Compound until approximately 12:41, after the building was fully engulfed. Only nine Davidians, all adults, were able to escape from the fire. At least 73 others, including the children, perished. n9

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Footnotes- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

n8 Some of the more outrageous claims made by the Plaintiffs, which have absolutely no factual support, include the allegations that FBI agents (or the Delta force) entered the Compound on foot, placed an explosive device on top of the concrete bunker where the Davidians' weapons were stored, and additionally entered the gymnasium area where they had the opportunity to grab Koresh but were told not to on the command of Webster Hubbel. Such information is supported by the rankest hearsay and other suspect sources and is totally inadmissible in a legal proceeding. Such frivolous claims come close to Rule 11 violations, and do little but detract from Plaintiffs' legitimate claims. Plaintiffs also discount Government reports that indicate the bodies of nine Davidians were found on top of the bunker because such does not fit into their theory that an explosive device was placed on top. However, it is entirely consistent with an explosion of the Compound's propane tanks.

n9 Subsequent autopsies revealed that 13 adults died from gunshot wounds, along with five children.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -End Footnotes- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Nearly 300 weapons were found in the remains of the Compound, approximately 46 of which were fully automatic. Also found were approximately 800,000 rounds of ammunition, 4 functional hand grenades, and over 100 practice grenade bodies that had been modified to be functional, but which did not contain a main charge or fusing system. Also discovered were the remains of numerous other weapons, pieces of exploded grenades, and innumerable rounds of expended ammunition.

Of those adults who left the Compound on April 19 or earlier, eleven were indicted for their role in the death of the four ATF agents and the illegal conversion of weapons, including Kathryn Schroeder ("Schroeder"), Brad Eugene Branch ("Branch"), Kevin Whitecliff ("Whitecliff"), Clive Doyle ("Doyle"), Jaime Castillo ("Castillo"), Livingstone Fagan ("Fagan"), Woodrow Kendrick ("Kendrick"), Norman Washington Allison ("Allison"), Graeme Leonard Craddock ("Craddock"), Renos Avraam ("Avraam") and Ruth Ottman Riddle ("Riddle"). Paul Gordon [**29] Fatta, who was not in the Compound on February 28, was charged with conspiracy to unlawfully manufacture and possess machine guns and aiding and abetting in the unlawful possession of machine guns. Pursuant to a plea agreement with the Government, Schroeder agreed to testify against her co-defendants in exchange for being allowed to plead to a lesser charge. After a six-week trial, the Defendants were acquitted of murdering federal officers, but Branch, Whitecliff, Castillo, Fagan, and Avraam were found guilty of the lesser included offense of voluntary manslaughter. Each was also found guilty of using or carrying a firearm during and in relation to a crime of violence, as were Craddock and Riddle. Craddock was additionally found guilty of possession of a hand grenade. Their sentences ranged from 5 to 40 years.

Andrade v Chojnacki, 65 F.Supp.2d 431 (1999).

NOT the Mt. Carmel Independent Investigation Advocates, PO Box 9050, Waco, Texas 76714...

oh these poor innocent people...

 

[Frackal]

As I understand it some of the jury members stated that they were not aware that the self-defense factor could be applied to the lesser charges, and probably would have aquitted the Davidians on those as well... I'll try to find a quote...

As for the rest of the post....it doesn't say much that we don't already know..what was the purpose of posting it?

Was this written by the Government defense attorneys bwood? If not, than who?

 

[bwood]

my post before this frac is from the district court judges, not the government defense lawyers...

"According to the transcript, at 7:49 a.m. on April 19, 1993, McGavin relayed a request from another agent for permission to fire pyrotechnic rounds at a construction pit north of the main building. 67 The conversation included the following:

McGavin:"He thinks he... can penetrate [the Compound] with military rounds."

Rogers:"Roger. Of course... you can try it."

McGavin:"Ten -- ten-four. Copy. He can try it?"

Rogers:"Yeah, that's affirmative."
22 Whittier L. Rev. 615, 623
taken from liberal nut job law journal


this is referring to the use of pyrotechnic gas...

which was used because the carrying projectile's greater
chance of penetrating the inner compound and flushing
the davidians out...

which was so hazardous that it took approximately
4 hours to ignite...

4 hours...

 

[Frackal]

I don't believe I ever said definitively that it was THAT firing of pyrotechnic devices that caused the ignition....and we'd have to assume that the feds did not alter the transcripts...