Using an AI during PCT - debate

[njmuscleguy]

Hey folks, I read this argument against using an AI during PCT - it's posted by a supposed pharmacologist on another board. Any thoughts? My PCT's have all been nightmares, I'm at my wits' end!

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"I don't advocate the use of AI's post-cycle. The main reason for this is due to the increase in free testosterone. At first, it looks good. When you think about it though, it's not the best idea. After the cessation of a steroid cycle, a person is completely shut down. When using formestane post-cycle which is going to increase free test, what makes you think that the body is going to continue producing enough test so that TOTAL test recovers? Your free test might recover to the right level, but total test most likely won't. That's not recovery in my book. The use of clomid and nolva actually elevate SHBG post-cycle. Bad thing, right? Wrong, again take a closer look. This will give total testosterone time to get back to normal. Then upon cessation of the SERMs, shbg drops and free test returns to normal. That's a full recovery in my book."

"To me post cycle recovery means recovery of gonadal function. This implies a return of total testosterone to normal pre-cycle levels. Estrogen increases sex hormone binding globulin, preventing free testosterone levels from reaching the point where they themselves impede recovery. Conversely, taking an aromatase inhibitor post cycle keeps SHBG artificially low, in turn making free testosterone artificially high. As stated, this elevated free test will act back on the HPTA to slow recovery."

 

[macrophage69alpha]

what this "theory" fails to take into account, is that oestrogen is the PRIMARY suppressor of the HPGA. Normalcy is relative, lower natural aromatase tends to mean higher natural testosterone. This is a normal state, just not one that everyone is lucky enough to have.

for someone that has high normal aromatase levels the failure to use an AI can severly impair recovery.

 

[KD1]

Can you use low dose AI for long periods of time, for say to combat the increased estrogen from using Dutasteride? Like 1 pump AIFM ED or EOD?

 

[macrophage69alpha]

yes. However one of the main issues with 5alpha reductase inhibitors is the fact that they work too well, especially dutasteride because of its suppression of both types of 5ar.. and because they work they reduce DHT. DHT modulates ER expression. if you can reccomend lowering dose of dutasteride as well (most people achieve an undesirable level of suppression).

translation DHT is a "gyno preventative"

 

[njmuscleguy]

what this "theory" fails to take into account, is that oestrogen is the PRIMARY suppressor of the HPGA. Normalcy is relative, lower natural aromatase tends to mean higher natural testosterone. This is a normal state, just not one that everyone is lucky enough to have.

for someone that has high normal aromatase levels the failure to use an AI can severly impair recovery.

I was hoping you would chime in on this one.... what you're saying makes sense... until now, the debate has been heatedly between nolva or clomid.... and how much HCG to run or when to run it.... now I see this debate on whether or not to use an AI... it drives me crazy!

 

[blut wump]

My last cycle, I dropped the nolva about two weeks into pct due to taking an anti-biotic, cyprofloxacin, with which almost everything was contra-indicated. I kept up the AIFM for another three weeks and, while I didn't get blood-work done, I felt that I had a complete PCT recovery and experienced no crash. It seemed to work for me.

I read around this topic quite a bit and my impression was that it's most important to control oestrogen since that seems to be the main feedback variable for suppression. Kind of along the lines of too much oestrogen tells the body that it already has enough testosterone so don't make more. An AI struck me as essential.

Of course, you have inhibins to consider too, which, I recall reading is the main route by which nandrolones cause their massive suppression. I'm not aware of any PCT regimes based around activins, though.

 

[njmuscleguy]

My last cycle, I dropped the nolva about two weeks into pct due to taking an anti-biotic, cyprofloxacin, with which almost everything was contra-indicated. I kept up the AIFM for another three weeks and, while I didn't get blood-work done, I felt that I had a complete PCT recovery and experienced no crash. It seemed to work for me.

I read around this topic quite a bit and my impression was that it's most important to control oestrogen since that seems to be the main feedback variable for suppression. Kind of along the lines of too much oestrogen tells the body that it already has enough testosterone so don't make more. An AI struck me as essential.

Of course, you have inhibins to consider too, which, I recall reading is the main route by which nandrolones cause their massive suppression. I'm not aware of any PCT regimes based around activins, though.

Thanks for your input blut! I'm going to try running AIFM a little longer next time.... I'm still debating between clomid and nolva.... have tried both... nolva didn't seem to help (and it killed my libido)....clomid did seem to help a little, but the sides were horrific... if I run nolva, I'm going to throw in some IGF (nolva reduces IGF levels).... some selegiline either way (to improve libido)

 

[macrophage69alpha]

try low dose clomid and dont frontload, this should help with sides

 

[njmuscleguy]

try low dose clomid and dont frontload, this should help with sides

Thanks Macro...was considering that....hopefully it will work

(BTW - selegiline is on the way!)

 

[Bruce]

i have to say it made a huge difference for me after a deca cycle that fucked me up. i had to run two pct's the second one included aifm and proviron and i recovered much better than with the standard clomid hcg nolva i used to do. this time i will be doing aifm or aromasin not sure yet.

 

[njmuscleguy]

i have to say it made a huge difference for me after a deca cycle that fucked me up. i had to run two pct's the second one included aifm and proviron and i recovered much better than with the standard clomid hcg nolva i used to do. this time i will be doing aifm or aromasin not sure yet.

Yah, I have proviron (and dbol) on-hand for my next PCT, but that's a whole other debate.... do they shut you down, or not? do they affect recovery, or not? I guess only way of knowing is if you try....then see how you feel and get tested... my thinking right now (subject to change) is that since all other PCT's didn't work for me, what's the worse that could happen if I ran Proviron or Dbol during PCT? I keep my libido? I keep my gains?

 

[KD1]

yes. However one of the main issues with 5alpha reductase inhibitors is the fact that they work too well, especially dutasteride because of its suppression of both types of 5ar.. and because they work they reduce DHT. DHT modulates ER expression. if you can reccomend lowering dose of dutasteride as well (most people achieve an undesirable level of suppression).

translation DHT is a "gyno preventative"

Thx, Im not to worried about the gyno, its more of a fleshy gut problem I seem to have. Unless Im on gear, my abs area gets really fleshy looking for how cut I am otherwise. In order to keep it as lean, I would have to diet away all my gains from gear.

I think its the lack of DHT and the higher estrogen. Y-Burn helped but as soon as I stopped within a couple weeks the fleshy look returned.

Not much I can do as far as DHT goes until I decide to kiss my hair goodbye ( not there yet, maybe when me and my g/f get enough time to tie the knot ). So I figured if I could lower my E a bit my gut might look better.

 

[Bruce]

bro proviron does not shut you down i don't care what anyone says. i take it all the time on and off cycle for great orgasms and what not. i used it in pct cause i could not bust a nut and it only brought me back

 

[macrophage69alpha]

proviron is not considered to be suppressive and has been used to restore fertility

 

[thebrakes]

proviron is not considered to be suppressive and has been used to restore fertility

at lower dosages, i can see this...but some guys do 100mg/day, and that is probably going to suppress to some extent. proviron is little more than bioavailable DHT. too much DHT, like any other hormone, will suppress natural T. granted, the SHBG binding of proviron may cancel that out for free T, but total T will likely be suppressed.

 

[njmuscleguy]

What's the mechanism by which libido is increased by using Proviron? I'm trying to understand why Proviron increases libido while you're shutdown... theoretically, you have little or no natural test at that point, so I'm guessing it's not through is SHBG-binding mechanism? Is it just the fact that DHT causes increased libido?

 

[macrophage69alpha]

binding in the brain, proviron appears to be a rather active neurosteroid, with DHT like binding. Though the exact mechanism and whether such binding even AR mediated is unknown.

 

[obey]

nj muscle i know this is off subject but i was looking at your avi... do you neglect your shoulders/traps or is that just a weird pic?

 

[njmuscleguy]

hahah.... funny you should say that... I have very developed traps... though you can't really see from that pic... I've often been told that I look like one of those Star Trek characters...umm... a Cardacian I think (not a trekkie), who have those freakish traps you can see from the front.... my shoulders on the other hand probably could use a little work....I'm trying to find a good shoulder routine that will give me canon-ball delts

 

[Dellyo]

Hey folks, I read this argument against using an AI during PCT - it's posted by a supposed pharmacologist on another board. Any thoughts? My PCT's have all been nightmares, I'm at my wits' end!

-------------------------------

"I don't advocate the use of AI's post-cycle. The main reason for this is due to the increase in free testosterone. At first, it looks good. When you think about it though, it's not the best idea. After the cessation of a steroid cycle, a person is completely shut down. When using formestane post-cycle which is going to increase free test, what makes you think that the body is going to continue producing enough test so that TOTAL test recovers? Your free test might recover to the right level, but total test most likely won't. That's not recovery in my book. The use of clomid and nolva actually elevate SHBG post-cycle. Bad thing, right? Wrong, again take a closer look. This will give total testosterone time to get back to normal. Then upon cessation of the SERMs, shbg drops and free test returns to normal. That's a full recovery in my book."

"To me post cycle recovery means recovery of gonadal function. This implies a return of total testosterone to normal pre-cycle levels. Estrogen increases sex hormone binding globulin, preventing free testosterone levels from reaching the point where they themselves impede recovery. Conversely, taking an aromatase inhibitor post cycle keeps SHBG artificially low, in turn making free testosterone artificially high. As stated, this elevated free test will act back on the HPTA to slow recovery."

More Info.."My PCT's have all been nightmares"

 

[njmuscleguy]

Long story short, I've rarely ever recovered properly with my previous PCT's..

 

[mikefear]

he's flexing his lats in that pic (i think) and i am unsure of how to flex both at the same time (traps + lats)

 

[njmuscleguy]

Hmm, I don't think I was flexing at all in that pic...at least not consciously.... was just sitting at my desk.

Guess ya can't please everyone, huh?

 

[mikefear]

damn son. nice lats thwn

 

[njmuscleguy]

damn son. nice lats thwn

thanks... my buds always joke that that see my lats coming before the rest of me... wish my arms were as cooperative!