Update and q's on squating a la 5x5

[kiosk]

Been squating ATF for four weeks now on the 5x5 prog, what a difference ATF has made for me, all my stupid knee pain is GONE!, they used to squeak and shit and be all sore but now all thats gone. It actually feels so much better going all the way down that I still cant believe it. All that crap of hack squats, smith machines is out the door for me for good....

Ok so a couple of questions thou...
1) My knees still travel beyond my toes when below parallel, even thou there is no pain at all, is there long term danger here? I am using only a slightly wider than shoudler widht with like a 35 deg toe flare.

2) When coming up I feel strong out of the deep bottom (hams and ass feel like pushing me up) but then after that 1/3 of the way up, just little after parallel, it feels like I get jammed somehow and is very tough getting to the last third of the way up, which is easy after then. whats the deal here?

I really looking to keep this going, making good progress.....

 

[Shepherd4]

I'm relatively new to this board, but I've been training and competing in O-lifting (and therefore squatting rock bottom) for about 6 years now.

Been squating ATF for four weeks now on the 5x5 prog, what a difference ATF has made for me, all my stupid knee pain is GONE!, they used to squeak and shit and be all sore but now all thats gone. It actually feels so much better going all the way down that I still cant believe it. All that crap of hack squats, <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=22&k=smith%20machines" onmouseover="window.status='smith machines'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">smith machines</a> is out the door for me for good....

Welcome to the other side! Rock bottom squatting is significantly less stressful on the knees because you're avoiding the shearing forces associated with stopping and reversing direction at the most vulnerable point (roughtly parallel). By riding the weight down to the bottom, you're allowing your joints and your muscles to hit a natural stopping point.

Ok so a couple of questions thou...
1) My knees still travel beyond my toes when below parallel, even thou there is no pain at all, is there long term danger here? I am using only a slightly wider than shoudler widht with like a 35 deg toe flare.

Not really, though it's hard to say for sure without watching you. Basically, if your heels stay planted on the ground, it's pretty hard for your knees to track too far forward. As far as whether they pass your toes or not, that's largely going to be a question of your own physiology (e.g., bone length, flexibility).

2) When coming up I feel strong out of the deep bottom (hams and ass feel like pushing me up) but then after that 1/3 of the way up, just little after parallel, it feels like I get jammed somehow and is very tough getting to the last third of the way up, which is easy after then. whats the deal here?

It's at about that point that your hams and glutes (which finish the lift) take over from your quads (which get you out of the hole). That's a sticking point for most people. You'll get used to it, and let it guide your weight selection. Some people do rack work to strengthen that weak spot by setting the bar so their starting the squat from that height, setting up, and standing up with the bar. By specifically training your weak spot, you'll increase your overall squatting ability (since, as we all know, the chain is only as strong as its weakest link!).

Keep up the good work.

mpc

 

[kiosk]

thanks, thats good advice......

 

[blut wump]

An alternative to rack squats is box squats which have the advantage of allowing you to keep your torso tight. You can use different height boxes to vary how low you go.

 

[Jim Ouini]

It's at about that point that your hams and glutes (which finish the lift) take over from your quads (which get you out of the hole)

Shepherd4, could you elaborate a bit? I always thought it was the other way around i.e, hams/glutes get you out of hole, quads finish the lift.

Like 1/4 squats for example, I thought was all quads which is why lots of people have weak hammies. And below parallel box squats you use hams/glutes to get you off the box.

 

[kiosk]

An alternative to rack squats is box squats which have the advantage of allowing you to keep your torso tight. You can use different height boxes to vary how low you go.

but I also heard that box squats are not spine friendly as there is a lot of spine compression when u sit on a box with weights on your shoulders, so you can damage your discs....is this tru?

 

[blut wump]

but I also heard that box squats are not spine friendly as there is a lot of spine compression when u sit on a box with weights on your shoulders, so you can damage your discs....is this tru?

I've certainly not noticed any feeling of spinal compression. At least no more than doing the squat anyway. Keep the back tight throughout and only let your hips and legs deload as you sit. You shouldn't be bouncing down onto the seat. I guess if you tend to drop in a more ballistic fashion when you're squatting then it could stress the spine more, so don't.

One thing I will mention is that I wouldn't do box squats in a Smith machine: you've nowhere to drop to if anything goes wrong.

 

[Shepherd4]

Shepherd4, could you elaborate a bit? I always thought it was the other way around i.e, hams/glutes get you out of hole, quads finish the lift.

Like 1/4 squats for example, I thought was all quads which is why lots of people have weak hammies. And below parallel box squats you use hams/glutes to get you off the box.

What'd I -- oops. Thanks for catching that Jim. You are entirely correct. The point is still correct, though -- the sticking point in the squat is caused by the fact that the QUADS are taking over from the HAMS/GLUTES. Sorry if I caused any confusion above, guys.

 

[Shepherd4]

An alternative to rack squats is box squats which have the advantage of allowing you to keep your torso tight. You can use different height boxes to vary how low you go.

Box squats definitely have their value, particularly in training your ability to explode out of the hole (which is one of the reasons Westside guys practice them with 60% weights). However, I'm not sure I agree that they form a true alternative to rack squats. The point of rack squats is NOT to start at the bottom, but rather to start the lift at the sticking point and squat up from there. In doing so, you can focus more specifically on getting through the sticking point. Check out Dan John's website, specifically http://danjohn.org/deadstop.html, for a better description of what I'm talking about.

mpc

 

[Jim Ouini]

What'd I -- oops. Thanks for catching that Jim. You are entirely correct. The point is still correct, though -- the sticking point in the squat is caused by the fact that the QUADS are taking over from the HAMS/GLUTES. Sorry if I caused any confusion above, guys.

Figured it was a typo but just thought I'd make sure that it wasn't a tricky Oly lifting phenomenom I wasn't familiar with

Thanks for the info on the sticking point...I'm going to be conscious of it this week.

 

[blut wump]

Box squats definitely have their value, particularly in training your ability to explode out of the hole (which is one of the reasons Westside guys practice them with 60% weights). However, I'm not sure I agree that they form a true alternative to rack squats. The point of rack squats is NOT to start at the bottom, but rather to start the lift at the sticking point and squat up from there. In doing so, you can focus more specifically on getting through the sticking point. Check out Dan John's website, specifically http://danjohn.org/deadstop.html, for a better description of what I'm talking about.

mpc

That link matched what I thought you meant.

I've never done rack squats so I'm happy to sit corrected but wouldn't choosing a box which was at the height of the sticking point have the same effect?

 

[Shepherd4]

That link matched what I thought you meant.

I've never done rack squats so I'm happy to sit corrected but wouldn't choosing a box which was at the height of the sticking point have the same effect?

Probably, but then you're expending the additional energy lowering the weight. It's not a major deal, but if you want to specifically work the sticking point, I'd go with deadstop squats.

 

[blut wump]

Probably, but then you're expending the additional energy lowering the weight. It's not a major deal, but if you want to specifically work the sticking point, I'd go with deadstop squats.

Good point on the eccentric part of the movement. There's still an aspect of ensuring that you are in your bio-mechanical groove for coming up but practice would likely take care of that.