UAW got their wish

[Creepusmaximus]

Those evil auto makers aren't going to profit from their hard work.

They don't, Ford and GM are going to go BK. Soon.

UAW? You want to buy them???

 

[walliwalibus]

Easy now.........

 

[Razorguns]

What happened? This post FAILS!

r

 

[Creepusmaximus]

Easy now.........

Simple question. You get laid off from a car company and look for a new job. What can you get? Can you get a job that pays as much? No you can't. Can you get one one that has the same benefits? No you can''t. Can you even come close? No you can't.

If it was me I would have guarded that with my life but they didn't. They killed the goose that laid the golden egg.

Those guys who get paid by GM for doing charity work have good lives. To bad for any of the new guys.

 

[EnderJE]

Yep, the only guys making a killing are the people who've been there forever and the CEO class.

 

[Razorguns]

That's what u get for creating shitty cars for decades. Karma.

r

 

[walliwalibus]

Easy now.

 

[Creepusmaximus]

That's what u get for creating shitty cars for decades. Karma.

r

Didn't help that the line workers thought they had to stick to the evil corp. by doing less than good work.

When pay packages are so great that everything has to be bet on one type of product. SUV's and trucks. If oil stayed down everything would be alright but that's a bad business model.

It goes on and on and I'm sure mgt is at fault. Evil bastards made bad decisions. It's mgt's fault let's screw them over. Ya.

 

[Razorguns]

Didn't help that the line workers thought they had to stick to the evil corp. by doing less than good work.

When pay packages are so great that everything has to be bet on one type of product. SUV's and trucks. If oil stayed down everything would be alright but that's a bad business model.

It goes on and on and I'm sure mgt is at fault. Evil bastards made bad decisions. It's mgt's fault let's screw them over. Ya.

Word. America is a private market. If they don't like "being screwed over" - they can quit and go work at firestone.

I don't feel sorry for them. 30 years on the job, and they've barely learned any new marketable skills. Meanwhile immigrants come with nothing - and owning businesses and their kids are going to college to become doctors.

r

 

[goin on 4T]

Simple question. You get laid off from a car company and look for a new job. What can you get? Can you get a job that pays as much? No you can't. Can you get one one that has the same benefits? No you can''t. Can you even come close? No you can't.

If it was me I would have guarded that with my life but they didn't. They killed the goose that laid the golden egg.

Those guys who get paid by GM for doing charity work have good lives. To bad for any of the new guys.

Maybe the UAW was creating a false floor for labor force. If that person was that valuable there would be jobs for that person. You can't mix socialism with economics. Sorry.

 

[goin on 4T]

Just wait its going to get worse for Ford and GM. What is bad for them is worse for the UAW!

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

Maybe the UAW was creating a false floor for labor force. If that person was that valuable there would be jobs for that person. You can't mix socialism with economics. Sorry.

I think most of what you're saying is beyond obvious...

 

[gotmilk]

I had to laugh at GM having to pay 30000 laid off employees full salary and benefits. Guys who had been out of work, working new jobs, and still collecting a GM salary because the Union forced the issue.

Wait until Jorge in Mexico City is putting the new Camaro's together.

The unions here in Maine are killing what's left of Central Maine Power, Bath Iron Works, and State gov't.

 

[mrplunkey]

Artificially fixing the price of labor always bites you in the ass in the end. Its going to cost us all of our domestic auto producers and what did we get in exchange? A couple of generations of overpaid assembly line workers?

I sure hope its worth losing the tax revenues from those companies for the next couple hundred of years. Ever notice how everything trickles-down to the taxpayer's wallet eventually?

 

[ortiz34]

chevy and ford are going bankrupt

thanks for the memo
you are only 3 years late on that one

btw, ALOT of big companies are in BK and still compete
look at Armstrong (flooring, ceiling tiles)
they were in BK for over twenty yrs or close too.

 

[Arabian]

The UAW union was the downfall of Detroit.. I hope all unionized companies go under and remerge union free

 

[goin on 4T]

I think most of what you're saying is beyond obvious...

Yeah well I would have made more sense if I wasn't so stinking drunk when I wrote it!!! For reals...

 

[mrplunkey]

The UAW union was the downfall of Detroit.. I hope all unionized companies go under and remerge union free

Obama's platform includes support for a new law that would make secret ballot voting for unions illegal. Right now, people scared of unions will claim to support them -- especially when the high-pressure "card signing" drive hits.

Well, unions and their supporters coerce people into signing cards which just indicates they want to have an election -- and that's how their strongarm tactics work. They'll say: "Sign the card, you still get to vote however you choose." So people forced into signing cards then participate in the secret ballot and vote against the union in private. It drives unions nuts, so they want to make secret ballots illegal.

The new proposed law states that if they simply get 50% of the employees to sign cards -- a process that is ANYTHING but private, they union is automatically certified and no secret ballot voting will occur. Unions are spending $360M on this presidential election to get it passed.

Anyone doubting what I've said? Think it's some sort of "spin"? Then go here: H.R. 800 - Summary: Employee Free Choice Act of 2007 (GovTrack.us)

Or just Google: "House Resolution 800: Employee Free Choice Act of 1997". It passed the house on 3/1/2007. It stopped there because Bush pledged to veto it.

Only in America with the assistance of the media could a resolution *stopping* secret ballot elections stay out of the public eye. This is one of those things being swept under the rug until after the election.

 

[goin on 4T]

Obama's platform includes support for a new law that would make secret ballot voting for unions illegal. Right now, people scared of unions will claim to support them -- especially when the high-pressure "card signing" drive hits.

Well, unions and their supporters coerce people into signing cards which just indicates they want to have an election -- and that's how their strongarm tactics work. They'll say: "Sign the card, you still get to vote however you choose." So people forced into signing cards then participate in the secret ballot and vote against the union in private. It drives unions nuts, so they want to make secret ballots illegal.

The new proposed law states that if they simply get 50% of the employees to sign cards -- a process that is ANYTHING but private, they union is automatically certified and no secret ballot voting will occur. Unions are spending $360M on this presidential election to get it passed.

Anyone doubting what I've said? Think it's some sort of "spin"? Then go here: H.R. 800 - Summary: Employee Free Choice Act of 2007 (GovTrack.us)

Or just Google: "House Resolution 800: Employee Free Choice Act of 1997". It passed the house on 3/1/2007. It stopped there because Bush pledged to veto it.

Only in America with the assistance of the media could a resolution *stopping* secret ballot elections stay out of the public eye. This is one of those things being swept under the rug until after the election.

I love your liberal use of the word, coerce. haha nice though

 

[mrplunkey]

I love your liberal use of the word, coerce. haha nice though

coerce \kō-ˈərs\
Function:
transitive verb
Inflected Form(s):
co·erced; co·erc·ing
Etymology:
Middle English cohercen, from Anglo-French *cohercer Latin coercēre, from co- + arcēre to shut up, enclose — more at ark
Date:
15th century

1 : to restrain or dominate by force <religion in the past has tried to coerce the irreligious — W. R. Inge>

2 : to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>

3 : to achieve by force or threat <coerce compliance>

------------------------

Going to someone who doesn't want to sign a card and telling them that they are "doing you wrong" if they don't sign it because they would be denying you your "right to an election" is clearly coercion. That's union tactic 101 -- it's like telling a girl you're going to just "put the tip in" and "we can stop anytime you want." And I like that analogy, because in both cases the recipient is gonna get fucked!

 

[goin on 4T]

coerce \kō-ˈərs\
Function:
transitive verb
Inflected Form(s):
co·erced; co·erc·ing
Etymology:
Middle English cohercen, from Anglo-French *cohercer Latin coercēre, from co- + arcēre to shut up, enclose — more at ark
Date:
15th century

1 : to restrain or dominate by force <religion in the past has tried to coerce the irreligious — W. R. Inge>

2 : to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>

3 : to achieve by force or threat <coerce compliance>

------------------------

Going to someone who doesn't want to sign a card and telling them that they are "doing you wrong" if they don't sign it because they would be denying you your "right to an election" is clearly coercion. That's union tactic 101 -- it's like telling a girl you're going to just "put the tip in" and "we can stop anytime you want." And I like that analogy, because in both cases the recipient is gonna get fucked!

Easy Plunky I just got up about 30 min still haveing my first cup of coffee and my head is still sore from the swolen blood cells trying to find there way through the small vessels in my brain. I also did not know that coersion included:
to restrain or dominate by force I thought it mearly meant to us tactical persuasion. I know they do what ever they feel they need to do to get the vote they need that is why I thought that was such a light word. So get off my a** JK

 

[mrplunkey]

Easy Plunky I just got up about 30 min still haveing my first cup of coffee and my head is still sore from the swolen blood cells trying to find there way through the small vessels in my brain. I also did not know that coersion included:
to restrain or dominate by force I thought it mearly meant to us tactical persuasion. I know they do what ever they feel they need to do to get the vote they need that is why I thought that was such a light word. So get off my a** JK

My bad... I had that extra cup of coffee this morning. I figured I needed the extra kick. Doing a follow-up lecture on EOQ calculations, Q-system and P-systems -- this stuff can get soooo boring in the blink of an eye. Just finished my charts on correlated ordering patterns and on de-trending demand data. I'd like to do one that removes seasonality but frigging Excel 2008 doesn't have an Analysis ToolPak. So it's Matlab or nothing, but unleashing Matlab on MBA students will most likely make their heads explode.

Oh, and I do really dislike unions. I fought (and won against) the Teamsters in the mid 1990's and those guys are the biggest thugs on the planet.

 

[goin on 4T]

My bad... I had that extra cup of coffee this morning. I figured I needed the extra kick. Doing a follow-up lecture on EOQ calculations, Q-system and P-systems -- this stuff can get soooo boring in the blink of an eye. Just finished my charts on correlated ordering patterns and on de-trending demand data. I'd like to do one that removes seasonality but frigging Excel 2008 doesn't have an Analysis ToolPak. So it's Matlab or nothing, but unleashing Matlab on MBA students will most likely make their heads explode.

Oh, and I do really dislike unions. I fought (and won against) the Teamsters in the mid 1990's and those guys are the biggest thugs on the planet.

No offense taken! As for the inventory calcs. Have fun on a Saturday!
And I hate unions too.. Outdated like welfare. Well maybe not the later for the next few years.

 

[chewyxrage]

Obama's platform includes support for a new law that would make secret ballot voting for unions illegal. Right now, people scared of unions will claim to support them -- especially when the high-pressure "card signing" drive hits.

Well, unions and their supporters coerce people into signing cards which just indicates they want to have an election -- and that's how their strongarm tactics work. They'll say: "Sign the card, you still get to vote however you choose." So people forced into signing cards then participate in the secret ballot and vote against the union in private. It drives unions nuts, so they want to make secret ballots illegal.

The new proposed law states that if they simply get 50% of the employees to sign cards -- a process that is ANYTHING but private, they union is automatically certified and no secret ballot voting will occur. Unions are spending $360M on this presidential election to get it passed.

Anyone doubting what I've said? Think it's some sort of "spin"? Then go here: H.R. 800 - Summary: Employee Free Choice Act of 2007 (GovTrack.us)

Or just Google: "House Resolution 800: Employee Free Choice Act of 1997". It passed the house on 3/1/2007. It stopped there because Bush pledged to veto it.

Only in America with the assistance of the media could a resolution *stopping* secret ballot elections stay out of the public eye. This is one of those things being swept under the rug until after the election.

THANKYOU! Nobody is aware of this and I hate to be one issue voter but this is it for me.....This is the most idiotic act proposed and nobody seems to even know it....The entire point of a secret ballot is to let the workers decide for themselves without scrutiny from their co-workers, this destroys that entire concept...

 

[walliwalibus]

Real easy now.... come on kiddies.....

 

[mrplunkey]

THANKYOU! Nobody is aware of this and I hate to be one issue voter but this is it for me.....This is the most idiotic act proposed and nobody seems to even know it....The entire point of a secret ballot is to let the workers decide for themselves without scrutiny from their co-workers, this destroys that entire concept...

It's incredible that anyone would support a non-secret ballot. On election day, an NLRB observer (basically a union supporter), a union observer(s) and management observer(s) are on site anyway. The opportunity for fraud is zero, as the ballot box is sealed and whisked-off by the NLRB member the moment the election is over anyway.

It's yet another example of your freedoms being taken away quietly. People will scream and bemoan the Patriot Act -- yet we can't find a single person on this board who's suffered from it. Yet this law will take away a freedom from millions of workers and no one in the mainstream media says a word...

Interesting, isn't it?

 

[SpyWizard]

what was the number??

$4600 of every new car goes to paying retirement benefits ??

Is that right??

idiots..

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

what was the number??

$4600 of every new car goes to paying retirement benefits ??

Is that right??

idiots..

:wtf: :wtf:

 

[EnderJE]

It's incredible that anyone would support a non-secret ballot. On election day, an NLRB observer (basically a union supporter), a union observer(s) and management observer(s) are on site anyway. The opportunity for fraud is zero, as the ballot box is sealed and whisked-off by the NLRB member the moment the election is over anyway.

It's yet another example of your freedoms being taken away quietly. People will scream and bemoan the Patriot Act -- yet we can't find a single person on this board who's suffered from it. Yet this law will take away a freedom from millions of workers and no one in the mainstream media says a word...

Interesting, isn't it?

You can't find a single person on this board who can prove direct damages of the patriot act or the bill that you mentioned.

However, you can find alot of opinions.

 

[mrplunkey]

You can't find a single person on this board who can prove direct damages of the patriot act or the bill that you mentioned.

However, you can find alot of opinions.

Well HR 800 hasn't passed yet. If it does pass, are you trying to say there won't be people affected by not having access to a secret ballot union election?

 

[EnderJE]

Well HR 800 hasn't passed yet. If it does pass, are you trying to say there won't be people affected by not having access to a secret ballot union election?

I'm saying that people like to bitch here on the doom and gloom scenarios, but I find it hard to find someone who is directly impacted by the decision and can show causality. Sure, we all theorize about the negative impacts, but that's the best we can do.

Using the same theory, I can say that the US has always done better (in the past 20 years) with a democrat in charge (ala my comic in the other post) and I can say that the Canadians have always done better with the Liberal party in power.

Is that true? It depends on the lens that you're looking at.

The black and white and all democrats are bad and all conservatives are great and all unions are bad is getting a little tired, don't you think?

 

[mrplunkey]

I'm saying that people like to bitch here on the doom and gloom scenarios, but I find it hard to find someone who is directly impacted by the decision and can show causality. Sure, we all theorize about the negative impacts, but that's the best we can do.

Using the same theory, I can say that the US has always done better (in the past 20 years) with a democrat in charge (ala my comic in the other post) and I can say that the Canadians have always done better with the Liberal party in power.

Is that true? It depends on the lens that you're looking at.

The black and white and all democrats are bad and all conservatives are great and all unions are bad is getting a little tired, don't you think?

Can you think of a single employer that has located jobs to an area *because* of a union? I sure can name employers that shipped them away. That one is a no-brainer.

And your comment about the US doing better under Clinton... He presided over a $5T internet bubble and was part of ramping-up the subprime mortgage bubble (probably another $1T). As president, if you'll give me a fake $6T in growth, I'll guarantee that the US will do better under me too.

 

[Creepusmaximus]

I'm saying that people like to bitch here on the doom and gloom scenarios, but I find it hard to find someone who is directly impacted by the decision and can show causality. Sure, we all theorize about the negative impacts, but that's the best we can do.

Using the same theory, I can say that the US has always done better (in the past 20 years) with a democrat in charge (ala my comic in the other post) and I can say that the Canadians have always done better with the Liberal party in power.

Is that true? It depends on the lens that you're looking at.

The black and white and all democrats are bad and all conservatives are great and all unions are bad is getting a little tired, don't you think?

Well this is what's coming up. GM is trying to buy Chrysler simply to add more to the body count. They don't have enough in assets for that to happen I don't think but it doesn't matter.

GM will declare BK and will be out of the UAW contract. Looking at 20 bucks an hour for the line workers and around a 50% lay off of white collar workers. The game will be to drop the pension on the Gov't. Those are real things that will effect people for real.

 

[mrplunkey]

Well this is what's coming up. GM is trying to buy Chrysler simply to add more to the body count. They don't have enough in assets for that to happen I don't think but it doesn't matter.

GM will declare BK and will be out of the UAW contract. Looking at 20 bucks an hour for the line workers and around a 50% lay off of white collar workers. The game will be to drop the pension on the Gov't. Those are real things that will effect people for real.

The trick would be to declare bankruptcy and sell-out the assets of the corporation. That would allow them to leave all the legacy garbage behind.

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

UAW =

 

[gotmilk]

The trick would be to declare bankruptcy and sell-out the assets of the corporation. That would allow them to leave all the legacy garbage behind.

cough...someone with cash already inquired about a couple of divisions..cough..

Here in Maine, one of the Indian tribes has 25000 acres on the water with a deep water port. No import/export tariffs on tribal property, no unions, and Maine already has Dirigo Health subsidized health care.

I've already approached two mid level investment banks and two pension funds about pooling funds for such an idea. Fuck Detroit (except the Red Wings).

 

[mrplunkey]

cough...someone with cash already inquired about a couple of divisions..cough..

Here in Maine, one of the Indian tribes has 25000 acres on the water with a deep water port. No import/export tariffs on tribal property, no unions, and Maine already has Dirigo Health subsidized health care.

I've already approached two mid level investment banks and two pension funds about pooling funds for such an idea. Fuck Detroit (except the Red Wings).

That would be one HELL of an idea. No taxes, no unions and a deep water port = teh win!

 

[gotmilk]

That would be one HELL of an idea. No taxes, no unions and a deep water port = teh win!

Plus, we have almost 700 people in that area with assembly experience. Brunswick Naval is shutting down in 2 years...almost perfect timing.

 

[mrplunkey]

Plus, we have almost 700 people in that area with assembly experience. Brunswick Naval is shutting down in 2 years...almost perfect timing.

That's an outstanding set of circumstances. That could save our domestic auto industry.

 

[snacky cake]

My dad worked for nearly 30 years for ford and retired in 2005. They keep cutting back his benefits.

 

[Razorguns]

UAW =

Hey they're not only getting 9 months notice, but 2 YEARS unemployemnt benefits.

Only in America

So don't feel sorry for them. I bet 99% of you pencil pushers could ever get those kinds of benefits! Unions ROOL!!!

r

 

[Creepusmaximus]

cough...someone with cash already inquired about a couple of divisions..cough..

Here in Maine, one of the Indian tribes has 25000 acres on the water with a deep water port. No import/export tariffs on tribal property, no unions, and Maine already has Dirigo Health subsidized health care.

I've already approached two mid level investment banks and two pension funds about pooling funds for such an idea. Fuck Detroit (except the Red Wings).

That's a Damned warp Idea and it might actually work.

 

[Creepusmaximus]

cough...someone with cash already inquired about a couple of divisions..cough..

Here in Maine, one of the Indian tribes has 25000 acres on the water with a deep water port. No import/export tariffs on tribal property, no unions, and Maine already has Dirigo Health subsidized health care.

I've already approached two mid level investment banks and two pension funds about pooling funds for such an idea. Fuck Detroit (except the Red Wings).

Something isn't adding up here.

Are you saying that you want to buy a division let's say the power train unit. What you want to do is out source all the parts and build an assembly plant on Indian land? All parts come in through their port? All assembled products going out through their port to avoid any import export taxes?

You expect to hire employees from the naval yard that is shutting down?

First off what are you going to give the Indians? They will want a good size part of ownership which is in a affect a tax on you. They are also going to want you to hire Indians for some positions. Another problematic situation.

The Indians have a working decent size port??? I don't see that. In general Indians are dirt poor saying they want to live like their dirt poor forefathers.

The idea of buying divisions and relocating them to a port area that the federal government is pulling out of is a good one. I just don't see where the Indians figure into this or their land.

 

[javaguru]

Artificially fixing the price of labor always bites you in the ass in the end. Its going to cost us all of our domestic auto producers and what did we get in exchange? A couple of generations of overpaid assembly line workers?

I sure hope its worth losing the tax revenues from those companies for the next couple hundred of years. Ever notice how everything trickles-down to the taxpayer's wallet eventually?

Wait, are you claiming $25.00 an hour for turning a few screws isn't a fair wage! Big Unions are socialism because they are artificially protected by the government while the employers are regulated by the government.I have no problem with workers collectively negotiating against an employer but it should be a level playing field. Unions were originally formed for a number of legitimate reasons which have been made into federal law (health and safety). Now it's all about wage inflation and protecting incompetence.

 

[mrplunkey]

Something isn't adding up here.

Are you saying that you want to buy a division let's say the power train unit. What you want to do is out source all the parts and build an assembly plant on Indian land? All parts come in through their port? All assembled products going out through their port to avoid any import export taxes?

You expect to hire employees from the naval yard that is shutting down?

First off what are you going to give the Indians? They will want a good size part of ownership which is in a affect a tax on you. They are also going to want you to hire Indians for some positions. Another problematic situation.

The Indians have a working decent size port??? I don't see that. In general Indians are dirt poor saying they want to live like their dirt poor forefathers.

The idea of buying divisions and relocating them to a port area that the federal government is pulling out of is a good one. I just don't see where the Indians figure into this or their land.

Here's my take:

1) Use the unencumbered deep-sea port to bring-in any key components you need (parts or even assemblies such as engines).

2) Use the tax-free status to incorporate your business and operate free of federal encumbrance.

3) If its native land, I bet the Department of Labor doesn't have jurisdiction there = no unions.

And I'm sure they'd have to give the local Indians a stake -- but equity is a non-cash expense. I'd rather not pay the taxes and not deal with the labor hassles and just make the profit. A stock that's even 20% diluted won't be a problem at all if earnings are 40%-50% higher. They'd recover that loss through their stock price the first day.

 

[binö]

The UAW union was the downfall of Detroit.. I hope all unionized companies go under and remerge union free

the uaw built detroit and alotta michigan
the wages they paid helped fuel the whole state's economy...up north were i lived, is crushed right now...no auto peeps vacationing up that way anymore.
really sad, esp since i've first hand witnessed the downfall

 

[mrplunkey]

the uaw built detroit and alotta michigan
the wages they paid helped fuel the whole state's economy...up north were i lived, is crushed right now...now auto peeps vacationing up that way anymore.
really sad, esp since i've first hand witnessed the downfall

But they didn't build it on sound business principals and on the idea of long-term employment. There could be 100,000 people there making a really good wage forever and instead they're going to have tens of thousands of people making a great wage for a relatively brief time.

Pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered. UAW dodged the scalding vat quite a few times, but I think this time its gonna get hung and dressed.

 

[binö]

But they didn't build it on sound business principals and on the idea of long-term employment. There could be 100,000 people there making a really good wage forever and instead they're going to have tens of thousands of people making a great wage for a relatively brief time.

Pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered. UAW dodged the scalding vat quite a few times, but I think this time its gonna get hung and dressed.

seems to me the principals were sound up untill about 10 yrs ago when things started really going down hill.
it's really sad for me, cause i've witnessed the downslope firsthand.
businesses closing up, golf courses getting overgrown, schools closing, people moving away...all tied to the auto economy.
i wonder if my great state will ever bounce back, i can't see southeast michigan ever recovering.
as much as you despise it, the UAW offered a piece of the american dream. 18 yr old could get a job paying 25 an hour with no experience and little skill.
not many places in the world were that could happen...too bad it can't last forever

 

[Creepusmaximus]

Here's my take:

1) Use the unencumbered deep-sea port to bring-in any key components you need (parts or even assemblies such as engines).

2) Use the tax-free status to incorporate your business and operate free of federal encumbrance.

3) If its native land, I bet the Department of Labor doesn't have jurisdiction there = no unions.

And I'm sure they'd have to give the local Indians a stake -- but equity is a non-cash expense. I'd rather not pay the taxes and not deal with the labor hassles and just make the profit. A stock that's even 20% diluted won't be a problem at all if earnings are 40%-50% higher. They'd recover that loss through their stock price the first day.

Feds have no power on Indian lands. On the other hand you can build an auto plant anywhere in the South free of unions. We have a BMW plant in SC which makes Z3 and Mercedes was looking to build a truck plant here too. No unions and the wages are much lower down here. You would get a ton of poeple who want to work in an auto plant for $20-$25 an hour with reasonable benefits.

I don't know how much you would really save in taxes which is the key to the whole deal with the Indians. If it's much higher than the equity you give the Indians then yes it's a good deal. I just don't see buying that many products from out of the country. Castings etc probably are coming from this country and many of the electronic parts.

 

[Creepusmaximus]

If you incorporated on Indian land you would have to take the money out of there some time but I guess you treat it as a dividend which would save you some money.

I'm going to have to dig up some facts on what the casions are doing on Indian land and how they do this and that.

 

[walliwalibus]

It will never happen. Do you think honestly it would?

 

[Mr. dB]

The US auto industry is competing against foreign competitors with an unfair advantage -- they're in countries with socialized medicine and other benefits.

 

[Creepusmaximus]

The US auto industry is competing against foreign competitors with an unfair advantage -- they're in countries with socialized medicine and other benefits.

Who and how do you think they pay for that?

Higher taxes, much higher taxes.

Also in those countries you don't get, money no object health care as in the US. Which I'm fine with that but when you have cancer and want to blow a million to live 3 months, you can in the US. Those other places you die. I'm fine with that but the US public won't go for that. They want want everything because they will live forever. My favorite right now is spending 70-80K a year on retard kids because you can make such progress. Not cost effective in any shpae or form.