Two 5x5 Variations

[Anthrax Invasion]

Would like to get everyone's opinion on swapping between two sets of exercises for the 5x5 routine.

Variation A

Monday/Friday
Back Squat
Flat Bench
Bentover Row

Wednesday
Deadlift
Back Squat
Standing OHP
High Pull

Variation B

Monday/Friday
Front Squat
Incline Bench
Power Clean

Wednesday
R. Deadlift
Front Squat
Weighted Dip
Weighted Pullup

I figured this would allow you to better cover all bases, whilst keeping the routine a bit more "fresh". The only issue I could see would be the lack of back squats in the latter variation. Front squats three times a week may intimidate some. If that didn't work, though, I believe back squats on Monday & Friday with fronts Wednesday could work for the first variation, with front squats on Monday & Friday and back squats on Wednesday for the second.

Let me know what you think.

 

[anotherbutters]

You don't say how often you propose swapping between them or whether you're talking about the SF or DF.

 

[Chambewy20]

Seems like more benches than dips, thought you were a devout dipper?

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Assume DF, swapping between every cycle or every other.

I believe dips are better than the bench press still, but the routine fits together nicely with the bench presses placed as they are. Not to mention, if the goal is weight gain (which it usually is), dips will be more difficult to progress with than the bench due to your bodyweight becoming a limiting factor.

 

[Chambewy20]

I think the weight gain would be a limiting factor only if you gain an enormous amount of weight.

Typically weight gain and strength increase at a similar rate.

 

[Madcow2]

I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Probably what some people should be doing. Also, it's pretty common to front squat on Wed rather than do light back squats. It's just that a lot of guys don't know how to front squat adequately and with so much else that's "different" from their typical workouts in the mix, it's easier to keep things plain vanilla.

 

[djeclipse]

I would think it;s not good to do deadlift before squatting... no?

 

[Cynical Simian]

I would think it;s not good to do deadlift before squatting... no?

If the weight on the light back squats is far enough from maximum it probably wouldn't be a problem to do them after conventional deads. And RDLs don't involve the quads much, so going for heavy/PR front squats afterwards is reasonable. The way he's paired squat and dead variations avoids any obvious problems with doing the more technical lift second, so it's more a matter of personal preference at this point.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

The squats after the deadlifts and RDLs are done lightweight. Usually 15-20% of Monday's weight, as is typical with the 5x5 routines.

The only issue with deadlifting before squatting is lower back fatigue, but chances are that won't be a problem with the lower squatting weights used.

Then again, they can always be switched.

That's what I figured, MC. Good stuff.

 

[djeclipse]

Excuse my ignorance, but where can I find info on RDL? What is it?

 

[enigma4dub]

Excuse my ignorance, but where can I find info on RDL? What is it?

romanian deadlift its a dead lift from the hang. check out excercise video link in the 5x5.

 

[enigma4dub]

anthrax, i see in variation a you are high pulling and deadlifting on the same day. seems redundant and pretty taxing to me.

 

[Madcow2]

RDL as originally executed by Nicu Vlad who is responsible for making this lift what it is and allowing the BBing magazines to make themselves sound oh so much more progressive by changing the name of stiff deads to Romanian Deads without really understanding the exercise.

http://jva.ontariostrongman.ca/RL.htm

 

[enigma4dub]

RDL as originally executed by Nicu Vlad who is responsible for making this lift what it is and allowing the BBing magazines to make themselves sound oh so much more progressive by changing the name of stiff deads to Romanian Deads without really understanding the exercise.

http://jva.ontariostrongman.ca/RL.htm

madcow,
so every rep goes pretty much to the floor why did i think it was from the hang?

 

[Madcow2]

I don't see him touching the floor, he's on a box for more range of motion. You can pull them from the floor though.

 

[djeclipse]

Thanks for the link. A few sites on google showed what they called the RDL with a guy only going half way down with his deadlift.

 

[enigma4dub]

thats why i was confused. in the link that madcow provided he is going through a much greater range of motion than in the video link provided in the 5x5 thread. i thought that was the main point of the romanian, just a shorter range of motion. a way to work on improving that particular range of motion for your traditional deadlift.

hopefully we can get this confusion cleared up

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

High pull and deadlift just worked well on the same day for me. Could always switch high pulls with pullups in variation B. RDL & High Pull would likely be less taxing.

 

[Madcow2]

hopefully we can get this confusion cleared up

There is nothing to clear up. Those shots were taken from the very first time the "Romanian Deadlift" was performed on US soil when Dragomir and Nicu visited the Olympic Training center at Colorado Springs. It was that very exercise that prompted the name "Romanian Deadlift". Nicu apparently used this style of pull quite a bit in his training - I have no idea what he liked to call it but I think the name came from the WLUSA article. There was a writeup in Weightlifting USA magazine afterward that introduced the movement to the public. It made its rounds in OL and strength/conditioning gradually drifting to mainstream (where now everything that involves semi-stiff leg pulling is a Romanian Deadlift).

Now, other people might certainly like to do different things and call it a Romanian deadlift. I can do four finger testicle grabs and call it a zercher squat too. That said, these pics were from the first demo of the lift by the guy who made it famous and his coach - everything came right from here. This was the same visit where Nicu recorded a 42" vertical with no warm up in wood heeled OL shoes.

 

[enigma4dub]

mc,
it was my interpretaion of what actually is an rdl that needed clearing up. i was under the impression that what was in the video index was proper execution, now i know thats not the case. thanks

 

[Madcow2]

mc,
it was my interpretaion of what actually is an rdl that needed clearing up. i was under the impression that what was in the video index was proper execution, now i know thats not the case. thanks

LOL. Well, welcome to the internet and weight training. An area where learning about even basic stuff like how to perform an exercise can be rediculously difficult and provide incorrect info.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

MC, do you see a problem with all backsquats with one variation, and all fronts with another?

 

[glennpendlay]

the "object" of an RDL should be to not change the knee angle significantly during the lift, and to keep the lower back absolutely tight with no loss of arch. some people can go down further than others and keep these things right. Nicu could go all the way to the floor. i coach some guys who can do this, i also coach some who can only go slightly below the knees. go as far down as you can without having round the back or bend the knees past the minumal amount they are bent at the very start of the movement. if you are more flexible, youll end up going further down.

 

[Jim Ouini]

the "object" of an RDL should be to not change the knee angle significantly during the lift, and to keep the lower back absolutely tight with no loss of arch. some people can go down further than others and keep these things right. Nicu could go all the way to the floor. i coach some guys who can do this, i also coach some who can only go slightly below the knees. go as far down as you can without having round the back or bend the knees past the minumal amount they are bent at the very start of the movement. if you are more flexible, youll end up going further down.

Not to be a quibbler but it looks to me like Nicu and Jesse Marunde (click on 600lb Romanian Deadlift) bend the knees and the arch isn't the same at the end as it is in the beginning in order to lower the bar below the platform, as you describe. Maybe they're doing a 'true' RDL but it seems to have evolved into something legitimately different.

Regardless, now it's got me thinking, what was the purpose of the original RDL? Is there more emphasis on the negative?

 

[Madcow2]

Not to be a quibbler but it looks to me like Nicu and Jesse Marunde (click on 600lb Romanian Deadlift) bend the knees and the arch isn't the same at the end as it is in the beginning in order to lower the bar below the platform, as you describe. Maybe they're doing a 'true' RDL but it seems to have evolved into something legitimately different.

Regardless, now it's got me thinking, what was the purpose of the original RDL? Is there more emphasis on the negative?

That video isn't like any RDL I've ever seen. That's basically a pure conventional pull with shoulders over the bar and a platform for no ground contact. There's a large amount of leg drive used in raising the bar whereas the hips shouldn't be lowered by the legs but displace backward to allow the torso to lower forward. Obviously, he's a strong guy and there's probably some merrit in a strongman using this technique but it isn't a standard RDL.

Where Jessee is lowering the bar with the legs, Nicu is maintaining knee position and displacing the hips backward rather than down. Obviously with weight the knees are going to move slightly but the idea is to minimize it. Nicu goes down to where his back is flat. As Glenn said ROM will depend upon the lifter - sort of like a goodmorning, some guys can go very far and others just don't have that flexability.

I honestly can't tell you how people might be doing XYZ and calling it a Romanian Deadlift. I just remember reading the original WLUSA article a long time ago (friend's house, taking my postworkout crap - don't ever borrow books from me ). I can't remember Nicu's stated purpose in employing the lift too well, it might not have been presented. Maybe Glenn has a copy of the mag or original article - probably not worth going through any trouble to find it. From what I recall and what I surmise, he just really felt it was valuable for him and I imagine it greatly strengthened his ability to generate power and speed when straightening his back in the 2nd pull. Maybe a weakness of his or allowed better use through balancing supperior leg power. I always loved to watch him lift on video but I've never had access to enough footage or watched him train to really diagnose the issue (to be honest, I wouldn't feel qualified in rendering an opinion even if I had).

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

I guess that's a no, Madcow?

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5692318&postcount=22

 

[Madcow2]

I guess that's a no, Madcow?

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5692318&postcount=22

LOL - not at all. Heavy fronts are less taxing for a lot of people, that might allow some potential alteration for workload if you are using fronts straight accross. It's just a matter of what you feel you need at the time to get you to whatever goal you have - even if it's just having fun and you like the idea of working hard on your front squat for a bit. I would say that I wouldn't make a habit of neglecting the backsquat for long periods of time, this is a major fundemental builder and maintainer of full body strength.