I have just started using those two products for about a month now along with nitro tech and cell tech and I have seen very good gains.I workout 3 days then take a one day rest and continue the cycle.Monday:chest/triceps tues"back/biceps wed:shoulders thurs/rest fri:legs/cardio I also do an intense ab workout every other day and try to run 3 miles 2x a week.Please give me some feedback on the supplements and the workout. THANKS RIZZO