Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below i heard that its not good to start clomid therapy too soon for post cycle, because you might come off too quick and hard. this may be a dumb Q, but my last shot was 1wk and 2days ago. it consisted of 1ml of sust and 1ml of eq. im on a tight schedule for a show in march of 2004. could i go ahead and start my clomid this monday or should i wait till next monday? i know the norm is 3wks, but didnt know if i could get away w/it this time.
total and hard shut down too soon
- Thread starter PinCushin
- Start date
I don't understand stand what you mean, you said....
"i heard that its not good to start clomid therapy too soon for post cycle, because you might come off too quick and hard"
As stated by sausage, if your test levels are too high you will need to wait to start. EQ takes 3 weeks!
What you should have done is used HCG and Nolvadex for the 3 weeks post cycle and then if you still need more help you could start the clomid after that.
In the future, I would do this....(starting after your last shot)
HCG 2000 IU x 3 per week for 3 weeks.
Novaldex 20 mg per day for 6 weeks
Why are you worried abut a contest that is almost a year away?
"i heard that its not good to start clomid therapy too soon for post cycle, because you might come off too quick and hard"
As stated by sausage, if your test levels are too high you will need to wait to start. EQ takes 3 weeks!
What you should have done is used HCG and Nolvadex for the 3 weeks post cycle and then if you still need more help you could start the clomid after that.
In the future, I would do this....(starting after your last shot)
HCG 2000 IU x 3 per week for 3 weeks.
Novaldex 20 mg per day for 6 weeks
Why are you worried abut a contest that is almost a year away?
gunner44
New member
You know, Iam getting real tired of people thinking that they can "time" when they begin their post cycle therapy.
I see way to many people promoting the misconception that you can in some way time your post cycle therapy to the day. BULLSHIT folks it isnt that simple.
If you are too cheap to get an ample supply of clomid and or nolvadex, then you DESERVE TO CRASH hard.
Clomid and nolvadex should be taken DURING your cycle to control estrogen, especially when using test.
You should increase your dosage at the end of your cycle. The half life of your juice should only be used as a rough guide as to when to increase. Trying to time it to the day or week is foolish.
There is nothing wrong at all with starting to early. It wont hurt you at all, and if you have lost controll of estrogen levels cuz you mistakenly thought clomid or nolvadex would hinder your gains, then you better be ready to get it under controll AS FAST AS POSSIBLE!!
Estrogen levels dont "rebound" post cycle, they are already WAY TOO HIGH by the time you finnish, assuming you havent been using liquidex/adex to PREVENT conversion in the first place, which BTW , is WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING ANYWAY!!
So to answer your question, start your Recovery cycle as soon as you stop the AAS, and dont wait longer than a week to start, especially if you did not use any anti-e's during cycle and if you didnt use A-dex/liquidex.
Also, forget clomid and use nolvadex, it is cheaper and works better, If you are totally sold on clomids "supposed" ability to restore, hpta, then TAKE BOTH !!
BTW, if you got a show, I assume you are a "pro" , so why the hell are you asking such a newbie question?
Man, I always assumed that juicers that competed were more educated than the rest of us recreational users? Guess not
Ughhhh
I see way to many people promoting the misconception that you can in some way time your post cycle therapy to the day. BULLSHIT folks it isnt that simple.
If you are too cheap to get an ample supply of clomid and or nolvadex, then you DESERVE TO CRASH hard.
Clomid and nolvadex should be taken DURING your cycle to control estrogen, especially when using test.
You should increase your dosage at the end of your cycle. The half life of your juice should only be used as a rough guide as to when to increase. Trying to time it to the day or week is foolish.
There is nothing wrong at all with starting to early. It wont hurt you at all, and if you have lost controll of estrogen levels cuz you mistakenly thought clomid or nolvadex would hinder your gains, then you better be ready to get it under controll AS FAST AS POSSIBLE!!
Estrogen levels dont "rebound" post cycle, they are already WAY TOO HIGH by the time you finnish, assuming you havent been using liquidex/adex to PREVENT conversion in the first place, which BTW , is WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING ANYWAY!!
So to answer your question, start your Recovery cycle as soon as you stop the AAS, and dont wait longer than a week to start, especially if you did not use any anti-e's during cycle and if you didnt use A-dex/liquidex.
Also, forget clomid and use nolvadex, it is cheaper and works better, If you are totally sold on clomids "supposed" ability to restore, hpta, then TAKE BOTH !!
BTW, if you got a show, I assume you are a "pro" , so why the hell are you asking such a newbie question?
Man, I always assumed that juicers that competed were more educated than the rest of us recreational users? Guess not
Ughhhh
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thanks for the back up dialtone. karma for you. i did use nolva 20mg/day during cycle w/a-dex eod. this is going to be my first show. thats why im worried about it. first show jitters. and its not till next march. cycles are to be planned thouroghly. i have all my cycles and recovery periods planned out up until march. (going off of belief of starting clomid 3wks after shot.) thats just the way i am. i plan it out instead of jumping right in. im just making last minute questions. i dont care if they sound stupid i want to be 100% sure i know what im doing. but i always welcome help. no matter what kind it may be.
JungleRizla
New member
go with timed, I've always gone by how I feel as to coincide with my last dose...sounds like 3 weeks is a good time though which makes sense with the sust, and as well the eq...
Tricepratus
New member
I agree with sausage and Dial_Tone. You must start your Clomid teraphy when test level drop below normal
I would use some HCG too (sorry, I want to restore my test level as soon as possible), so in that way you shock your system in that regards, but only for two weeks and spacing the HCG shot for about 5 days. Continue your Clomid teraphy for three more weeks
I would use some HCG too (sorry, I want to restore my test level as soon as possible), so in that way you shock your system in that regards, but only for two weeks and spacing the HCG shot for about 5 days. Continue your Clomid teraphy for three more weeks
Triple J
New member
Always switch to short acting compunds for the last 4 weeks or so after you finish your last shot of long esters. Those long esters will keep you suppressed not just because of the amount in your system but also the slow and steady 24x7 drip of hormone into your body which fucks up your circadian pulses. So go with slow acting compounds until the long esters clear, and if you can go with oral am (halo, proviron) dosing so much the better, and then you will be ready to jump right into your post therapy. clomid could be overlapped with am oral dosing for a week or two. Yes nolva during cycle is best but I still like Clomid post as primary therapy with a little Nolva will not hurt and may help. Adex not a bad idea either depending on the person and how bad they convert (estrogen issues). I do not like HCG due to estrogen conversion better wait it out your balls will come back when they are ready. am dbol OK if estrogen not an issue otherwise halo or proviron. winny / ox not bad choices either. I would not finish with tren because it tends to shuts one down too hard.
gunner44
New member
QUOTE]Originally posted by Dial_tone
Well Gunner, that was a bad form post if I ever saw one. You've made alot of assumptions on what he should've done without knowing what he's taken. He may have been on anti-e's the whole time. Either way, the suggestion to delay Clomid use until 3 weeks after a Sust shot is a good one. Clomid for recovery will be a waste until the test levels drop below normal. [/QUOTE]
Sorry Dial-tone if i offfended your sense or gramatical correctness.
I could really care less if you think that my post is in bad form.
I was not assuming anything in my post, only responding to the question. I think I made my point, which is that trying to time your recovery cycle is absolute bullshit!
I would like for you, or anyone, to make me look like an ass and show me proof that starting clomid and or nolvadex while androgen levels are still elevated is a bad idea.
I can think of 2 very good reasons not to wait too long...your brand new right tit and the left one!
Have you forgotten that clomid/nolvadex reduce the side effects of estrogen by acting as agonist? (in some tissues,an antagonist in others) Isnt it important to try to negate the effects of high levels of estrogen post cycle?
You, and a lot of others, seem to think that clomid is usefull for only one thing, that is restarting a healthy HPTA function.
That belief is truely flawed, since in medical studies Nolvadex has shown to restore HPTA more effectively than clomid.
If anyone has a real problem accepting this as fact, then do your damn research...or ask Bill Llewellen or look up the thread about clomid vs. nolvadex. I dont think I need to go into that right now, people can read it for themselves.
There is no reason to wait until the very last minute to begin nolva/clomid...unless you want to be in a situation where androgen levels are bottomed out and estrogen and cortisol are elevated.
If you are going to spew out advise, then you should err on the side of caution. The only way to time your post cycle recovery to the day or even the week, would be to monitor your androgen levels DAILY ...and nobody is going to do that. This whole idea of "wait this long" or "wait that long" is pure bullshit and I have yet to see any real evidence that would back up the notion that there is some magical amount of time you should wait, regardless of the AAS used.
Someone please enlighten me.
Well Gunner, that was a bad form post if I ever saw one. You've made alot of assumptions on what he should've done without knowing what he's taken. He may have been on anti-e's the whole time. Either way, the suggestion to delay Clomid use until 3 weeks after a Sust shot is a good one. Clomid for recovery will be a waste until the test levels drop below normal. [/QUOTE]
Sorry Dial-tone if i offfended your sense or gramatical correctness.
I could really care less if you think that my post is in bad form.
I was not assuming anything in my post, only responding to the question. I think I made my point, which is that trying to time your recovery cycle is absolute bullshit!
I would like for you, or anyone, to make me look like an ass and show me proof that starting clomid and or nolvadex while androgen levels are still elevated is a bad idea.
I can think of 2 very good reasons not to wait too long...your brand new right tit and the left one!
Have you forgotten that clomid/nolvadex reduce the side effects of estrogen by acting as agonist? (in some tissues,an antagonist in others) Isnt it important to try to negate the effects of high levels of estrogen post cycle?
You, and a lot of others, seem to think that clomid is usefull for only one thing, that is restarting a healthy HPTA function.
That belief is truely flawed, since in medical studies Nolvadex has shown to restore HPTA more effectively than clomid.
If anyone has a real problem accepting this as fact, then do your damn research...or ask Bill Llewellen or look up the thread about clomid vs. nolvadex. I dont think I need to go into that right now, people can read it for themselves.
There is no reason to wait until the very last minute to begin nolva/clomid...unless you want to be in a situation where androgen levels are bottomed out and estrogen and cortisol are elevated.
If you are going to spew out advise, then you should err on the side of caution. The only way to time your post cycle recovery to the day or even the week, would be to monitor your androgen levels DAILY ...and nobody is going to do that. This whole idea of "wait this long" or "wait that long" is pure bullshit and I have yet to see any real evidence that would back up the notion that there is some magical amount of time you should wait, regardless of the AAS used.
Someone please enlighten me.
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gunner44
New member
Dial_tone said:
To say that clomid wont do an "iota" is not true at all.
Again , you appear to think that clomid is only effective for fixing hpta function, and nothing more.
Not the case at all! Clomid will help to reduce the negative effects of excessive estrogen levels once artificial androgen levels are cut off.
I cant beleive you would say this, unless you have never really understood how clomid and nolvadex function.
AS soon as androgens are cut off, the ratio of estrogen in the blood stream can, and usually does go up to a point where side effects can become a real problem. Nolvadex and clomid can help to controll this situation, until natural androgen production comes back.
I should also point out that simply taking arimidex will not totally eliminate high estrogen levels. Arimidex is NOT 100% effective, as so many people seem to want to believe.
Estrogen is never your friend when using AAS. Sure, low levels can adversely effect your lipid profiles, but that is a great reson to take Nolvadex during your cycle and using it for post cycle recovery. There is no reason to discontinue the use of nolvadex in an effort to save money, as you suggest.
Plastic surgery is much more costly than a couple of boxes of clomid or nolvadex.
thelegacy : You cant say I am on the rag, cuz I always watch my estrogen levels. That means I am just a plain old asshole.
ichabodcrane
New member
I didn't think there really was such a thing as a bad question (relatively speaking). And I thought that when nolva/clo decrease the side effects of estrogen, they do so by acting as antagonists, not agonists (which would basically be binding the E receptor and producing an estrogenic response)?? > surely that couldn't decrease estrogenic effects!
gunner44
New member
ichabodcrane :
nolvadex acts as both an agonist and an antagonist in different target tissues. It binds to the estrogen receptor in most cases...and causes little or no reaction..thereby preventing real estrogen from causing unwanted sides. In some tissues it has the same effect as estrogen, most importantly in the liver.
Nolvadex/clomid works as antagonists in the liver tissues but as agonists in fat tissues. This is how lipid profiles are positively effected at the same time fat deposits are decreased as well as hypertension being reduced.
My understanding is that Nolvadex helps to increase HPTA function by acting as an antagonist to the HPTA axis, as estrogen would do, therefore increasing FSH and LH output to increase natural test levels. The HPTA axis serves to maintain a balance between estrogen and test. If high estrogen levels are seen, then test production is increased to maintain a balance. If your testes are atrophed badly, then this can take a LONG time . This is where HCG comes into play...but thats another discussion.
I have to say that I believe there is absolutely no reason to allow estrogen levels to increase buring a cycle. By taking an effective anti-e like clomid or nolvadex you will go a long way in avoiding the negative sides . By taking arimidex, you can go even further in reducing and actually eleminating estrogen in your system.
To get back to the original question, by starting clomid sooner, you can help to reduce estrogen related sides. If anyone thinks that this isnt a benficial thing to do, then they must be dense or somehow, dont suffer estrogen related sides. Most of us however, suffer the negative sides caused by estrogen and should try to control it.
Estrogen AINT your friend!
nolvadex acts as both an agonist and an antagonist in different target tissues. It binds to the estrogen receptor in most cases...and causes little or no reaction..thereby preventing real estrogen from causing unwanted sides. In some tissues it has the same effect as estrogen, most importantly in the liver.
Nolvadex/clomid works as antagonists in the liver tissues but as agonists in fat tissues. This is how lipid profiles are positively effected at the same time fat deposits are decreased as well as hypertension being reduced.
My understanding is that Nolvadex helps to increase HPTA function by acting as an antagonist to the HPTA axis, as estrogen would do, therefore increasing FSH and LH output to increase natural test levels. The HPTA axis serves to maintain a balance between estrogen and test. If high estrogen levels are seen, then test production is increased to maintain a balance. If your testes are atrophed badly, then this can take a LONG time . This is where HCG comes into play...but thats another discussion.
I have to say that I believe there is absolutely no reason to allow estrogen levels to increase buring a cycle. By taking an effective anti-e like clomid or nolvadex you will go a long way in avoiding the negative sides . By taking arimidex, you can go even further in reducing and actually eleminating estrogen in your system.
To get back to the original question, by starting clomid sooner, you can help to reduce estrogen related sides. If anyone thinks that this isnt a benficial thing to do, then they must be dense or somehow, dont suffer estrogen related sides. Most of us however, suffer the negative sides caused by estrogen and should try to control it.
Estrogen AINT your friend!
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StephenDFW
New member
Could the time that one should start post cycle theraphy have anything to do with the "mg" of the drug taken?
For instance:
1. 400mg weekly of Deca @ 21 days since last shot would equal approximately 50mg still in the body.
2. 200mg weekly of Deca @ 21 days since last shot would equal approximately 25mg (50% less) still in the body. Something to think about is that there would be 50mg in the body @ 14 days (same as 400mg @ 21 days).
NOTE: The above did not allow for the "build-up" of previous shots and it just meant as an example that represents a percentage difference.
The theory with Deca is to wait 3 weeks from the last shot to start post cycle recovery. But if you are using the lower dosage of 200mg, could one not start it at 2 weeks?
Is there a "mg' left in the body" that one should base their starting of post cycle recovery?
For instance:
1. 400mg weekly of Deca @ 21 days since last shot would equal approximately 50mg still in the body.
2. 200mg weekly of Deca @ 21 days since last shot would equal approximately 25mg (50% less) still in the body. Something to think about is that there would be 50mg in the body @ 14 days (same as 400mg @ 21 days).
NOTE: The above did not allow for the "build-up" of previous shots and it just meant as an example that represents a percentage difference.
The theory with Deca is to wait 3 weeks from the last shot to start post cycle recovery. But if you are using the lower dosage of 200mg, could one not start it at 2 weeks?
Is there a "mg' left in the body" that one should base their starting of post cycle recovery?
StephenDFW
New member
Could the time that one should start post cycle theraphy have anything to do with the "mg" of the drug taken?
For instance:
1. 400mg weekly of Deca @ 21 days since last shot would equal approximately 50mg still in the body.
2. 200mg weekly of Deca @ 21 days since last shot would equal approximately 25mg (50% less) still in the body. Something to think about is that there would be 50mg in the body @ 14 days (same as 400mg @ 21 days).
NOTE: The above did not allow for the "build-up" of previous shots and it just meant as an example that represents a percentage difference.
The theory with Deca is to wait 3 weeks from the last shot to start post cycle recovery. But if you are using the lower dosage of 200mg, could one not start it at 2 weeks?
Is there a "mg' left in the body" that one should base their starting of post cycle recovery?
For instance:
1. 400mg weekly of Deca @ 21 days since last shot would equal approximately 50mg still in the body.
2. 200mg weekly of Deca @ 21 days since last shot would equal approximately 25mg (50% less) still in the body. Something to think about is that there would be 50mg in the body @ 14 days (same as 400mg @ 21 days).
NOTE: The above did not allow for the "build-up" of previous shots and it just meant as an example that represents a percentage difference.
The theory with Deca is to wait 3 weeks from the last shot to start post cycle recovery. But if you are using the lower dosage of 200mg, could one not start it at 2 weeks?
Is there a "mg' left in the body" that one should base their starting of post cycle recovery?
swampmoose
New member
re
in reality, one should have an arsenal of anti E's nolv, clomid, hcg,
arimidex. dont fuck around, be smart. the is my answer to all problems.
in reality, one should have an arsenal of anti E's nolv, clomid, hcg,
arimidex. dont fuck around, be smart. the is my answer to all problems.
Gunner,
I will be running sust@250mg/wk 1-8, eq.@400mg./wk2-10, and possible var@40mg. ED wk1-8 (if I can get it without much trouble and afford it). What do you think I should take during and post cycle to ensure less sides? Note: this is my first cycle and I have a slight case of gyno from when I was a teen(21 now).
I will be running sust@250mg/wk 1-8, eq.@400mg./wk2-10, and possible var@40mg. ED wk1-8 (if I can get it without much trouble and afford it). What do you think I should take during and post cycle to ensure less sides? Note: this is my first cycle and I have a slight case of gyno from when I was a teen(21 now).
gunner44
New member
10-20mg of nolvadex and 50 mg of proviron daily will help to prevent any gyno. Since you seem to think you actually have gyno,,,you really dont have a choice.
I would also get some arimidex aor liquidex and run that daily.
Since you already have a mild case of gyno, you also might want to consider avoiding ANYTHING that can aromatize into estrogen.
You should be alright with only 250mg weekly with the Sust, but to be safe, I would use an oral like d-bol or even inject prop ED or EOD so you can pull the plug if you get any signs of gyno.
If I were you , I would play it real safe the first time out.
I would also get some arimidex aor liquidex and run that daily.
Since you already have a mild case of gyno, you also might want to consider avoiding ANYTHING that can aromatize into estrogen.
You should be alright with only 250mg weekly with the Sust, but to be safe, I would use an oral like d-bol or even inject prop ED or EOD so you can pull the plug if you get any signs of gyno.
If I were you , I would play it real safe the first time out.
mikelong23
New member
gunner44 said:
Dude you need to read that book again or go ask Bill, because he states that estrogen also helps in some ways to gain size and that nolvadex should be used only when needed as it could hinder possible gains.
mikelong23
New member
no offense to Gunner, but you guys are acting like he is the know-all of roids, which I am not saying he is or isn't. But the main point is to do your own research as well from actual people that you can trust they know their stuff. It sounds like Gunner know a pretty good deal of info., but still you guys are going to him with questions about something that you should really be looking into on your own. Not stating that getting advice is bad, but it may not always be right.
so basically what i see out of all this is no matter what always have anti-e's on you. if you want to go ahead and start clomid sooner than 3wks after last shot then it wont hurt you. but it could hinder gains due to the fact estrogen helps build muscle. and since there is still estrogen in your system and juice you could still be growing. so really all it comes down to is doing whatever you feel you need to do. if you need to start it early go for it but if at all possible....wait the 3 wks and grow that much more.
mikelong23 said:
about time someone said that...nolvadex works so good that its actually bad (as far as gains) why take nolvadex the whole way through and risk losing gains when you could just keep it on hand and use it when needed...i wont even use liquidex becuase i'm afraid of losing gains...i have the 3 on hand always though (clomid/nolv/ldex)
Lift Chief
New member
gunner44 said:
Telling someone who is gyno prone to take dbol is the worst advice you could possibly give. Dbol converts very aggressively to estrogen- it's one of the drugs that is most likely to cause gyno.
Prop may be wise so that if you get symptoms of gyno you can stop and get it out of your system right away.
Lift Chief
New member
gunner44 said:
Sorry Dial-tone if i offfended your sense or gramatical correctness.
I could really care less if you think that my post is in bad form.
I was not assuming anything in my post, only responding to the question. I think I made my point, which is that trying to time your recovery cycle is absolute bullshit!
I would like for you, or anyone, to make me look like an ass and show me proof that starting clomid and or nolvadex while androgen levels are still elevated is a bad idea.
I can think of 2 very good reasons not to wait too long...your brand new right tit and the left one!
Have you forgotten that clomid/nolvadex reduce the side effects of estrogen by acting as agonist? (in some tissues,an antagonist in others) Isnt it important to try to negate the effects of high levels of estrogen post cycle?
You, and a lot of others, seem to think that clomid is usefull for only one thing, that is restarting a healthy HPTA function.
That belief is truely flawed, since in medical studies Nolvadex has shown to restore HPTA more effectively than clomid.
If anyone has a real problem accepting this as fact, then do your damn research...or ask Bill Llewellen or look up the thread about clomid vs. nolvadex. I dont think I need to go into that right now, people can read it for themselves.
There is no reason to wait until the very last minute to begin nolva/clomid...unless you want to be in a situation where androgen levels are bottomed out and estrogen and cortisol are elevated.
If you are going to spew out advise, then you should err on the side of caution. The only way to time your post cycle recovery to the day or even the week, would be to monitor your androgen levels DAILY ...and nobody is going to do that. This whole idea of "wait this long" or "wait that long" is pure bullshit and I have yet to see any real evidence that would back up the notion that there is some magical amount of time you should wait, regardless of the AAS used.
Someone please enlighten me. [/QUOTE]
Alright first of all most of the things you've been saying is common knowledge among anyone who has been around these boards for more than a month.
Everyone knows clomid and nolva act to block estrogen. As dialtone said nolvadex is stronger at blocking estrogen than clomid.
You seem to think nolva being better than clomid post cycle is fact. Sorry chief but people with way more experience/expertise than you have debated about this exact point to a standstill. There is evidence and studies to support both sides- apparently you haven't seen it.
And timing your post cycle therapy is not "bullshit" at all. The half-lives of the drugs youre using is all the proof you should need that starting post cycle therapy too early will do absolutely nothing. Sure we dont know to the day- so you should start it on the lower estimate of when it clears to be safe.
It won't HURT to start therapy while your levels are still elevated- but it won't HELP anything either. You'll just be wasting your money. Obviously if you need anti-es then you should continue running them during the time between your last shot and your post cycle therapy- everyone knows that.
For someone who doesn't even have his facts straight you certainly come off like you know it all.
Tricepratus
New member
gunner44 said:
Sorry Dial-tone if i offfended your sense or gramatical correctness.
I could really care less if you think that my post is in bad form.
I was not assuming anything in my post, only responding to the question. I think I made my point, which is that trying to time your recovery cycle is absolute bullshit!
I would like for you, or anyone, to make me look like an ass and show me proof that starting clomid and or nolvadex while androgen levels are still elevated is a bad idea.
I can think of 2 very good reasons not to wait too long...your brand new right tit and the left one!
Have you forgotten that clomid/nolvadex reduce the side effects of estrogen by acting as agonist? (in some tissues,an antagonist in others) Isnt it important to try to negate the effects of high levels of estrogen post cycle?
You, and a lot of others, seem to think that clomid is usefull for only one thing, that is restarting a healthy HPTA function.
That belief is truely flawed, since in medical studies Nolvadex has shown to restore HPTA more effectively than clomid.
If anyone has a real problem accepting this as fact, then do your damn research...or ask Bill Llewellen or look up the thread about clomid vs. nolvadex. I dont think I need to go into that right now, people can read it for themselves.
There is no reason to wait until the very last minute to begin nolva/clomid...unless you want to be in a situation where androgen levels are bottomed out and estrogen and cortisol are elevated.
If you are going to spew out advise, then you should err on the side of caution. The only way to time your post cycle recovery to the day or even the week, would be to monitor your androgen levels DAILY ...and nobody is going to do that. This whole idea of "wait this long" or "wait that long" is pure bullshit and I have yet to see any real evidence that would back up the notion that there is some magical amount of time you should wait, regardless of the AAS used.
Someone please enlighten me. [/QUOTE]
Gunner:
I think that there is a misunderstand. You are rigth when you say that keep taking nolv with cycle to avoid the side effects of elevated estrogen levels. The guy is question when to start post cycle teraphy to avoid post crash, and for that purpose Clomid is better option, think about that, in medicine clomid is used for augment ovulation in women and not as antiestrogen, for that it is nolvadex, so by a "mirror" effect in man may be equal.
And if you start your post teraphy too soon your test level it will be high enough still, and the body will not "feel" that it is necessary to produce endogenous testosterone yet, so you are not doing anything. Like Dial say, you are wasting your money.
We are talking post teraphy here, not antiestrogen topic
Clomiphene is more often used to induce ovulation in subfertile women but that does not mean that it is better than Tamoxifen.This study shows that both deliver comparable results:Tricepratus said:
Fertil Steril 2001 May;75(5):1024-6
_
A prospective randomized trial comparing clomiphene citrate with tamoxifen citrate for ovulation induction.
Boostanfar R, Jain JK, Mishell DR Jr, Paulson RJ.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Division of Reproductive Endocrinology and Infertility, University of Southern California Keck School of Medicine, Los Angeles, California 90033, USA.
OBJECTIVE: To compare the rates of ovulation and pregnancy after tamoxifen citrate (TMX) or clomiphene citrate (CC) among anovulatory women with infertility. DESIGN: Prospective randomized trial. SETTING: Infertility clinic in a university teaching hospital. PATIENT(S): Eighty-six anovulatory women under 40 years of age undergoing ovulation induction. INTERVENTION(S): The women were assigned randomly to receive either TMX or CC on cycle days 5-9. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Rates of ovulation and pregnancy for the two treatment modalities. RESULTS(S): The overall rate of ovulation in the TMX group was 50 of 113 (44.2%) and in the CC group, 41 of 91 (45.1%). There were 10 pregnancies in the TMX group and 6 pregnancies in the CC group. The cycle fecundity per ovulatory cycle was 20.0% in the TMX group and 14.6% in the CC group. CONCLUSION(S): The overall rate of ovulation and pregnancy were similar with TMX and CC. TMX is a suitable alternative agent to CC in the management of anovulatory infertility
gunner44
New member
To anyone who thinks that it is a "waste of money" to begin taking nolvadex/clomid to early, I have this to say to you:
Go fing a less expensive and less dangerous hobby.
I always err on the side of caution. If people want to act paranoid about the negative effects caused by TO LOW estrogen levels, well then they need to be prepared for side effects.
Controlling estrogen levels is one of the most important things a juice head can do. It is wishfull thinking to allow estrogen levels to go unabated, in the hopes of a few extra pounds, of most likely, water gain!
Trying to time post cycle recovery to the week or day is useless, and if a person waits to long, then there is trouble.
It IS bullshit to try and time recovery cycles, and you are a cheap ass idiot if your only response is that it is a waste of money.
Keeping estrogen levels LOW will help to fight off fat deposits which ARE A BITCH to get rid of later.
Of course there are those who have never and will probably never use any anti-e's at all.
Good for you, your blessed....most folks arent.
I should also mention that my experience in this area has increased dramatically since I started to see my endo on a regular basis. It really helps when your doc understands what you are doing. SO I AM not as smart as I might apppear, merely passing on my personal experiences.
Go fing a less expensive and less dangerous hobby.
I always err on the side of caution. If people want to act paranoid about the negative effects caused by TO LOW estrogen levels, well then they need to be prepared for side effects.
Controlling estrogen levels is one of the most important things a juice head can do. It is wishfull thinking to allow estrogen levels to go unabated, in the hopes of a few extra pounds, of most likely, water gain!
Trying to time post cycle recovery to the week or day is useless, and if a person waits to long, then there is trouble.
It IS bullshit to try and time recovery cycles, and you are a cheap ass idiot if your only response is that it is a waste of money.
Keeping estrogen levels LOW will help to fight off fat deposits which ARE A BITCH to get rid of later.
Of course there are those who have never and will probably never use any anti-e's at all.
Good for you, your blessed....most folks arent.
I should also mention that my experience in this area has increased dramatically since I started to see my endo on a regular basis. It really helps when your doc understands what you are doing. SO I AM not as smart as I might apppear, merely passing on my personal experiences.
gunner44
New member
Lift Chief said:
Dont think so at all. Taking an oral gives you an out if you experience any signs of gyno.
D-bol along with anti e-s and proviron at lower dosages would be a good beginner cycle for anyone, as long as they watch for signs .
I only recommend it to those who cant handle ed injections with prop. Prop is a better choice but I dont find d-bol to be any more estrogenic than any other testosterone.
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