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Too many Americans are going to college

samoth

New member
What's Wrong With Vocational School?

Too many Americans are going to college.

BY CHARLES MURRAY

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 12:01 a.m.

The topic yesterday was education and children in the lower half of the intelligence distribution. Today I turn to the upper half, people with IQs of 100 or higher. Today's simple truth is that far too many of them are going to four-year colleges.

Begin with those barely into the top half, those with average intelligence. To have an IQ of 100 means that a tough high-school course pushes you about as far as your academic talents will take you. If you are average in math ability, you may struggle with algebra and probably fail a calculus course. If you are average in verbal skills, you often misinterpret complex text and make errors in logic.

These are not devastating shortcomings. You are smart enough to engage in any of hundreds of occupations. You can acquire more knowledge if it is presented in a format commensurate with your intellectual skills. But a genuine college education in the arts and sciences begins where your skills leave off.

In engineering and most of the natural sciences, the demarcation between high-school material and college-level material is brutally obvious. If you cannot handle the math, you cannot pass the courses. In the humanities and social sciences, the demarcation is fuzzier. It is possible for someone with an IQ of 100 to sit in the lectures of Economics 1, read the textbook, and write answers in an examination book. But students who cannot follow complex arguments accurately are not really learning economics. They are taking away a mishmash of half-understood information and outright misunderstandings that probably leave them under the illusion that they know something they do not. (A depressing research literature documents one's inability to recognize one's own incompetence.) Traditionally and properly understood, a four-year college education teaches advanced analytic skills and information at a level that exceeds the intellectual capacity of most people.

There is no magic point at which a genuine college-level education becomes an option, but anything below an IQ of 110 is problematic. If you want to do well, you should have an IQ of 115 or higher. Put another way, it makes sense for only about 15% of the population, 25% if one stretches it, to get a college education. And yet more than 45% of recent high school graduates enroll in four-year colleges. Adjust that percentage to account for high-school dropouts, and more than 40% of all persons in their late teens are trying to go to a four-year college--enough people to absorb everyone down through an IQ of 104.

No data that I have been able to find tell us what proportion of those students really want four years of college-level courses, but it is safe to say that few people who are intellectually unqualified yearn for the experience, any more than someone who is athletically unqualified for a college varsity wants to have his shortcomings exposed at practice every day. They are in college to improve their chances of making a good living. What they really need is vocational training. But nobody will say so, because "vocational training" is second class. "College" is first class.

Large numbers of those who are intellectually qualified for college also do not yearn for four years of college-level courses. They go to college because their parents are paying for it and college is what children of their social class are supposed to do after they finish high school. They may have the ability to understand the material in Economics 1 but they do not want to. They, too, need to learn to make a living--and would do better in vocational training.

Combine those who are unqualified with those who are qualified but not interested, and some large proportion of students on today's college campuses--probably a majority of them--are looking for something that the four-year college was not designed to provide. Once there, they create a demand for practical courses, taught at an intellectual level that can be handled by someone with a mildly above-average IQ and/or mild motivation. The nation's colleges try to accommodate these new demands. But most of the practical specialties do not really require four years of training, and the best way to teach those specialties is not through a residential institution with the staff and infrastructure of a college. It amounts to a system that tries to turn out televisions on an assembly line that also makes pottery. It can be done, but it's ridiculously inefficient.

Government policy contributes to the problem by making college scholarships and loans too easy to get, but its role is ancillary. The demand for college is market-driven, because a college degree does, in fact, open up access to jobs that are closed to people without one. The fault lies in the false premium that our culture has put on a college degree.

For a few occupations, a college degree still certifies a qualification. For example, employers appropriately treat a bachelor's degree in engineering as a requirement for hiring engineers. But a bachelor's degree in a field such as sociology, psychology, economics, history or literature certifies nothing. It is a screening device for employers. The college you got into says a lot about your ability, and that you stuck it out for four years says something about your perseverance. But the degree itself does not qualify the graduate for anything. There are better, faster and more efficient ways for young people to acquire credentials to provide to employers.

The good news is that market-driven systems eventually adapt to reality, and signs of change are visible. One glimpse of the future is offered by the nation's two-year colleges. They are more honest than the four-year institutions about what their students want and provide courses that meet their needs more explicitly. Their time frame gives them a big advantage--two years is about right for learning many technical specialties, while four years is unnecessarily long.

Advances in technology are making the brick-and-mortar facility increasingly irrelevant. Research resources on the Internet will soon make the college library unnecessary. Lecture courses taught by first-rate professors are already available on CDs and DVDs for many subjects, and online methods to make courses interactive between professors and students are evolving. Advances in computer simulation are expanding the technical skills that can be taught without having to gather students together in a laboratory or shop. These and other developments are all still near the bottom of steep growth curves. The cost of effective training will fall for everyone who is willing to give up the trappings of a campus. As the cost of college continues to rise, the choice to give up those trappings will become easier.

A reality about the job market must eventually begin to affect the valuation of a college education: The spread of wealth at the top of American society has created an explosive increase in the demand for craftsmen. Finding a good lawyer or physician is easy. Finding a good carpenter, painter, electrician, plumber, glazier, mason--the list goes on and on--is difficult, and it is a seller's market. Journeymen craftsmen routinely make incomes in the top half of the income distribution while master craftsmen can make six figures. They have work even in a soft economy. Their jobs cannot be outsourced to India. And the craftsman's job provides wonderful intrinsic rewards that come from mastery of a challenging skill that produces tangible results. How many white-collar jobs provide nearly as much satisfaction?

Even if forgoing college becomes economically attractive, the social cachet of a college degree remains. That will erode only when large numbers of high-status, high-income people do not have a college degree and don't care. The information technology industry is in the process of creating that class, with Bill Gates and Steve Jobs as exemplars. It will expand for the most natural of reasons: A college education need be no more important for many high-tech occupations than it is for NBA basketball players or cabinetmakers. Walk into Microsoft or Google with evidence that you are a brilliant hacker, and the job interviewer is not going to fret if you lack a college transcript. The ability to present an employer with evidence that you are good at something, without benefit of a college degree, will continue to increase, and so will the number of skills to which that evidence can be attached. Every time that happens, the false premium attached to the college degree will diminish.

Most students find college life to be lots of fun (apart from the boring classroom stuff), and that alone will keep the four-year institution overstocked for a long time. But, rightly understood, college is appropriate for a small minority of young adults--perhaps even a minority of the people who have IQs high enough that they could do college-level work if they wished. People who go to college are not better or worse people than anyone else; they are merely different in certain interests and abilities. That is the way college should be seen. There is reason to hope that eventually it will be.

Mr. Murray is the W.H. Brady Scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. This is the second in a three-part series, concluding tomorrow.

Copyright © 2007 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.



:cow:
 
wow. everyone will be a doctor or lawyer or child psychologist. and then the people at taco bell will be making the big bucks....
 
you think making racial quotas helps this issue?

I dont think so.
 
samoth said:
LOL. I thought it had some interesting points.



:cow:
It makes good points but attitudes and cultural standards such as this move glacially. And not to split hairs, but in addition to engineering; medical, accounting, and law require specifically those degrees in order to prove qualification for employment.
 
meh

Elitist, at best. When I was in about 8th grade, our school began a gifted and talented program based on IQ scores. Of course, we were not supposed to see our own scores, but we used to look at our own files every time we were left alone in the room...lol. They used to administer all sorts of achievement test and IQ test on us all the time, like little guniea pigs...lol. All of our IQ scores were getting higher and higher because we just got really good at knowing how to answer those sorts of questions. I don't put tons of weight on IQ scores. People who test lots get really good at them, just like any other test taking skill.

Even so, if someone with an average IQ can work very hard and pass college courses, I say more power to him or her. I have a very good friend who is a medical doctor who swears that his IQ isn't much better than average but that he had a passion for medicine and just made it his life in school. He had to work harder than his friends in school, but now he is an excellent doctor with a sterling reputation.

I say give people a chance. Don't dumb down the courses any and grade fairly. If they are good enough to pass, then they were smart enough.
 
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the best kind of IQ test is the culturally unbiased ones.

The shape/pattern matching kinds.
 
If they are so concerned with subpar students going and graduating to college make getting into and graduating college more difficult.
 
Hmm...passing calculus should be a mandatory pre req to graduate with a 4 year degree in anything...

that'll weed a good deal of people out right away
 
chewyxrage said:
Hmm...passing calculus should be a mandatory pre req to graduate with a 4 year degree in anything...

that'll weed a good deal of people out right away
Sure would. That was the class that made me realize I wasnt an engineering type. I got a C in that class by the way but I was steamrolling up until that point.
 
Calculus and regression analysis were two of the most fascinating courses I ever took in college. I think it is still true that most of the freshman class fails out at any college and that is the reason it is typically 3-4 times larger than the others. Most peeps only get some college and never actually graduate. It is still a minority that gets the BS/BA degree and it does still mean something to employers and they like to see that on a resume.
 
i got a C in calculus I.

I had never been exposed to it before then.

A's and B's in the following math classes.
 
It was interesting until I saw it was an american enterprise institute article, and they are a notorious libertarian group. This whole argument is most likely just a smokescreen to encourage cutting of public funds for higher education. And it was a pretty elitist article talking about the IQ savants who should be considered for the science and technology jobs while everyone else does blue collar work.

Higher education via college is overrated. 50% don't graduate, and of those who do 50% don't use their degrees. I know in my field that about 30-50% of graduates are going to med or dental school, which has nothing to do with what they learned as undergrads.

Vocational school is a good alternative, and associate degrees from community colleges offer almost as much lifelong economic benefit as bachelor degrees from 4 year universities. However this elitist attitude of just writing off the bottom 80% due to IQ isn't really acceptable. IQ is important but so is motivation, learning methods and work ethic.

I'd like to see more respect for online degrees, or people who study a subject online and gain accrediation for it.
 
your average welder/metal worker makes more per year than your average dip shit with a BA/BS (depending on their field, of course).
 
the article is dead right about one thing.......look for jobs that can't be outsourced. Even the engineering jobs asshat is talking about......are going to India and China where 15k a year is like hitting the jackpot. It's just more of the free market that we're told is so "good" for us......really? Good for who?...<rhetorical question>
 
p0ink said:
your average welder/metal worker makes more per year than your average dip shit with a BA/BS (depending on their field, of course).


One of my best friends back home is a boiler/tank welder in Houston (the port of) where all the refineries are. A slow week for him is an 80 hr week. He never sees his kids and wife. Not the profession I would pick.
 
The article makes some great points. Grade inflation and the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality means that now truly *anyone* can pass high school.

Now that attitude is sinking-into colleges and universities -- there are fewer and fewer "weeder" courses. At Vandy, Engineering Calculus was the weeder for all engineers. Organic Chemistry was the weeder for all pre-meds. Now contrast that to today's nebulous "Business Management" major. That guy is going to get a non-specific degree, graduate, and get turned-down for 50 corporate jobs. Then, if he's lucky, he'll land a job as a pharmacutical sales rep... otherwise he's waiting tables at O'Charleys. Why not teach him a real-world skill like electrical work? Or welding? Our certified welders for ORNL used to make $35/hour -- which wasn't bad at all consdering where they lived.
 
I agree but "guidance counseling" in middle and high school making low level college courses more difficult is the answer and not arbitrary IQ scores. There also has to be a change in the general attitude that going to college and getting a four year degree is the natural progression for people who want to be financially successful. That means pushing trade schools and two year programs from early education. I graduated in 1990 and they were pushing vocational education heavily in my high school but it was too late to change students' minds.
 
JavaGuru said:
I agree but "guidance counseling" in middle and high school making low level college courses more difficult is the answer and not arbitrary IQ scores. There also has to be a change in the general attitude that going to college and getting a four year degree is the natural progression for people who want to be financially successful. That means pushing trade schools and two year programs from early education. I graduated in 1990 and they were pushing vocational education heavily in my high school but it was too late to change students' minds.
Totally agree!

IQ is only one of many measures. Intelligence has so many facets that trying to measure it with a single number is seriously flawed.

We also need to do some image repair to trade schools. We need more of a European mindset where trades are seen as very honerable and important. We're slipped into an "everyone needs a college degree" mindset here which is a mistake.
 
Calculus is great. I got exposed to it in High School and it is my favorite subject in Mathematics.
 
mrplunkey said:
The article makes some great points. Grade inflation and the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality means that now truly *anyone* can pass high school.

Now that attitude is sinking-into colleges and universities -- there are fewer and fewer "weeder" courses. At Vandy, Engineering Calculus was the weeder for all engineers. Organic Chemistry was the weeder for all pre-meds. Now contrast that to today's nebulous "Business Management" major. That guy is going to get a non-specific degree, graduate, and get turned-down for 50 corporate jobs. Then, if he's lucky, he'll land a job as a pharmacutical sales rep... otherwise he's waiting tables at O'Charleys. Why not teach him a real-world skill like electrical work? Or welding? Our certified welders for ORNL used to make $35/hour -- which wasn't bad at all consdering where they lived.

Some business schools are VERY challenging and Calculus and other skills (like creating Financial Models) are extremely well taught and challenging.

Just my 2 cents
 
ErikZ said:
Some business schools are VERY challenging and Calculus and other skills (like creating Financial Models) are extremely well taught and challenging.

Just my 2 cents
I was using "General Business" as an example of a non-specific major that doesn't necessarily have a natural "weeding" course. The same could be said for "Computer Science", "Political Science", "Sociology" or "Philosophy", etc. etc..
 
In Hungary whether or not a student will go to college is decided very early. By the time a student is 14 their grades will show whether they are college material. If they are not then they do not go to high school (precursor to university) but to a vocational school of their choice. At 18 they have a solid trade and become viable and contributing member of society.

Sadly, many employers in the US make a college degree mandatory even it if isnt one of use to that particular field. I believe that less than 25% of college graduates actually go on to careers where they utilize their degrees. So what is the point of a degree? Just to prolong adolescense at this point, I suppose.

Everyone should have equal opportunity and access to a college education if it is something that will help them become productive members of society. However, there is no shame in skilled labor/solid trade. I have had the pleasure to meet MANY men that were multi-millionaires who never even attended college.

I dont believe that IQ scores alone are accurate indicators though of one's projected success. From what I have been told (by several members of the organization) most members of MENSA are laborers. It is my understanding that emotional IQ is a far better indicator.

Just something to think about.
 
I am grateful that I have an approximate,
5+3+6=14 years x $25,000 = $350,000 education behind me :)

In addition, for my last 6 years, I gave up approx. $480,000 in salary to make TA pay.

With that said, I have a 1000x better life than if I didn't go to school.
 
mightymouse69 said:
I am grateful that I have an approximate,
5+3+6=14 years x $25,000 = $350,000 education behind me :)

In addition, for my last 6 years, I gave up approx. $480,000 in salary to make TA pay.

With that said, I have a 1000x better life than if I didn't go to school.

I didnt finish college, but got married to my ex. BIG FAT FREAKING MISTAKE. Had I had that degree my choices would have been far less limited while re-entering the workforce, though I can't say if I would have done things differently (being honest). What I am saying is that my choices would have been far greater.

MORE OPTIONS = HIGHER PROBABILITY THAT ONE WILL MAKE BETTER CHOICES.

At this juncture I dont NEED a degree. It blows me away when my husband asks me to read over proposals/agreements and he asks me to help modify documents. Firstly because he trusts me to, secondly because I can. I wonder sometimes how different my life would have been had I finished my undergrad.

Hindsight is 20/20 though, aint it? ;) Not a fan of looking back, though. Got too much before me to waste too much time doing that.
 
I agree with you!

Aside from what the article discusses, the indirect benefits to me were to expand my horizons. I grew up in the city and it helped me understand other cultures and differences among people, since my area is so homogeneous. I also met a pretty special woman :).

I K-messaged you something private!
Thanks.



BIKINIMOM said:
I didnt finish college, but got married to my ex. BIG FAT FREAKING MISTAKE. Had I had that degree my choices would have been far less limited while re-entering the workforce, though I can't say if I would have done things differently (being honest). What I am saying is that my choices would have been far greater.

MORE OPTIONS = HIGHER PROBABILITY THAT ONE WILL MAKE BETTER CHOICES.

At this juncture I dont NEED a degree. It blows me away when my husband asks me to read over proposals/agreements and he asks me to help modify documents. Firstly because he trusts me to, secondly because I can. I wonder sometimes how different my life would have been had I finished my undergrad.

Hindsight is 20/20 though, aint it? ;) Not a fan of looking back. Got too much before me to waste too much time doing that.
 
mightymouse69 said:
I agree with you!

Aside from what the article discusses, the indirect benefits to me were to expand my horizons. I grew up in the city and it helped me understand other cultures and differences among people, since my area is so homogeneous. I also met a pretty special woman :).

I K-messaged you something private!
Thanks.


K-messaged a reply.

Your kindness is very much appreciated.
 
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