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T
The Shadow
Guest
Straight sets.....
Topic:
Why they are not the best way to train for size......
Topic:
Why they are not the best way to train for size......
I give up...why?
B True
B True
T
The Shadow
Guest
Ok...for me...and this is from a bb'ing approach...
say I'm curling 135 for sets of 8.
If I get 8 on all sets...then I shorted myself on the first set at least.....that is assuming you are going to failure.....
My reps would be
8,7 maybe 5.
To get the same reps on all the sets then I would only have doen 5 reps on all three sets......you cheat yourself on the front end..
...picky I know but....that's why for size I prefer pyramis of 15,12,8,6,4 reps.
along the same lines I am starting a new program that after warm-ups I am only doing 2 balls-to-the-wall sets of each exercise...3 exercises total....so - 6 working sets per bodypart
say I'm curling 135 for sets of 8.
If I get 8 on all sets...then I shorted myself on the first set at least.....that is assuming you are going to failure.....
My reps would be
8,7 maybe 5.
To get the same reps on all the sets then I would only have doen 5 reps on all three sets......you cheat yourself on the front end..
...picky I know but....that's why for size I prefer pyramis of 15,12,8,6,4 reps.
along the same lines I am starting a new program that after warm-ups I am only doing 2 balls-to-the-wall sets of each exercise...3 exercises total....so - 6 working sets per bodypart
I gotcha....
I used to pyramid the weights. Say on the bench press, it would be like this..
Flat Bench Press
warm ups
315 x 5
275 x 8
245 x 8
225 x 10
Of course the weights are just an example...but I would do my heavy set first then decrease the weight on each set...
B True
I used to pyramid the weights. Say on the bench press, it would be like this..
Flat Bench Press
warm ups
315 x 5
275 x 8
245 x 8
225 x 10
Of course the weights are just an example...but I would do my heavy set first then decrease the weight on each set...
B True
T
The Shadow
Guest
it's just a different approcah pyramids vs. reverse pyramids....the dropping weight and increasing reps will work but YOU MUST ENSURE THAT YOU ARE PROPERLY WARMED UP...
Yes...and this is how my warm ups went for my 405 bench last week:
Shoulder Stretches and rotations both fwd and backwards
2 sets Lat pull downs for 15 reps
2 sets face pulls for 10 reps
2 sets tricep push downs for 8 reps
2 sets standing pull down abs for 10 reps
1 set of dbell cleans (rotators)
Bench Press
45 x 30
135 x 10
225 x 5
315 x 3
365 x 1
405 x 1
When I was bodybuilding I would have done a set with 365, 315, and 275 after the 405 set...
B True
Shoulder Stretches and rotations both fwd and backwards
2 sets Lat pull downs for 15 reps
2 sets face pulls for 10 reps
2 sets tricep push downs for 8 reps
2 sets standing pull down abs for 10 reps
1 set of dbell cleans (rotators)
Bench Press
45 x 30
135 x 10
225 x 5
315 x 3
365 x 1
405 x 1
When I was bodybuilding I would have done a set with 365, 315, and 275 after the 405 set...
B True
T
The Shadow
Guest
Yes sir.......you bench the empty bar as well....I do that and get ALL sorts of weird ass looks......
There is no shame in benching the empty bar...always have and always will.
B True
B True
Y_lifter
New member
I find that if I stay with my 1 set Max weight all the way through 3 sets, I fail early on the 3rd set at around rep #5.
Even using every bit of will power it won't come up without a Spotter helping cheat.
Knowing this, I usually go for as many reps with the Max as I can on the 3rd set and then drop set another full set.
Normally I do a warmup set with maybe 1/2 the max weight.
Then, if the body area I'm working is real cold maybe one more set of 3/4 the Max weight.
Then I do 3 sets of my Max set weight for 8-9 reps.
This way, each week the number of reps completed on that 3rd set goes up from 5 to 6 to 7 to 8 and that tells me it's time to bump up the Max weight 5lbs or so.
Even using every bit of will power it won't come up without a Spotter helping cheat.
Knowing this, I usually go for as many reps with the Max as I can on the 3rd set and then drop set another full set.
Normally I do a warmup set with maybe 1/2 the max weight.
Then, if the body area I'm working is real cold maybe one more set of 3/4 the Max weight.
Then I do 3 sets of my Max set weight for 8-9 reps.
This way, each week the number of reps completed on that 3rd set goes up from 5 to 6 to 7 to 8 and that tells me it's time to bump up the Max weight 5lbs or so.
louden_swain
New member
I don't like straight sets. When I perform an exercise, I always increase the weight each set. I typically use 2 or 3 sets for upper body muscles and 4 for leg muscles. I am one of those trainers who will train to failure. I hate stopping at a certain rep, when I know that I have more in me. I like to take it to the extreme, that is why I like low sets. I also like to get a couple of forced reps on my last heavy set.
J
jeremys
Guest
I agree with kingjohn..lighter sets and jumps in weights that arent so big help me get ready for a heavier weight..i find that if the jump is over 20-30 when warming up with progressively heavier sets, im not ready for my work sets
SteelWeaver
New member
I aim for a certain rep range, then just lift til I can't anymore. If I got a few more reps than I was aiming for, I add weight, to stay within the target rep range. If I only got, like, one more, I leave the weight as is, then lift til I can't anymore. This usually works out to one or two reps less than the preceding set, but sometimes I'll get the same number, in which case I know I have to work harder on my first set next time, or increase the weight.
T
The Shadow
Guest
spatts said:Perhaps we need to discuss why failure is associated with size. Power lifters never train to failure.
Lead off then.....hehehhe
I gotta disagree with corns original point. The cornerstone of my mass building routine is the 5x5 system, or one of it's variations, and the point of the system is to use the same weight for all your sets of 5, but then add weight for the next week and do it all over again. This approach has put the last 30lbs of mass on my frame
T
The Shadow
Guest
then you were NOt going to failure on your first set.....
vinylgroover
New member
I can't disagree with your results Needsize, but to do 5 x 5, after adding warm ups, you must be doing quite a few sets in your workout.
Cornholio said:
You're right, if any set is to failure, it's just the last one. The growth seems to happen because I can continually add weight for a given period of time.
vinylgroover, it isn't really a lot of sets. My working sets are usually around 9 per bodypart, and like I said, at least 4 of the first 5 sets arent to failure, but I do take a lot of time warming up
louden_swain
New member
I train a lot like Dorian Yates. I train to failure so I can truly see where I am strength wise. When it comes time to train for the next workout, I will add weight. Here is an example how I train:
For the last set:
Workout 1 - Incline Barbell Presses 300lbs x fail at 5
Workout 2 - Incline Barbell Presses 305lbs x fail at 4 + 2 forced
workout 3 - Incline Barbell Presses 305lbs x fail at 5
Workout 4 - Incline Barbell Presses 310lbs x fail at 4 + 2 forced
Workout 5 - Incline Barbell Presses 310lbs x 5
Workout 6 - Incline Barbell Presses 335lbs x 3 negatives
If my strength starts to stagnate after a period of time, I will change exercises and use weights where I can fail at higher reps 8-12.
I keep a training log to monitor the weights I use. I think training to failure recruits tons of muscle fibers, therefore you require less sets. Thats my opinion and what works for me. I think when you use a 5 x 5 program, you are actually able to get at least 8 reps for the first set, then 7 for the second, and etc. When it comes to squats, I will get as many reps as possible, then I will use the rest pause method to force out a few more. Sometimes, on my last set, I will put on 225lbs and will squat for 4 to 5 minutes straight just to shock the lower body. I believe that Tom Platz did something similar, except he squatted for 10 minutes straight
.
For the last set:
Workout 1 - Incline Barbell Presses 300lbs x fail at 5
Workout 2 - Incline Barbell Presses 305lbs x fail at 4 + 2 forced
workout 3 - Incline Barbell Presses 305lbs x fail at 5
Workout 4 - Incline Barbell Presses 310lbs x fail at 4 + 2 forced
Workout 5 - Incline Barbell Presses 310lbs x 5
Workout 6 - Incline Barbell Presses 335lbs x 3 negatives
If my strength starts to stagnate after a period of time, I will change exercises and use weights where I can fail at higher reps 8-12.
I keep a training log to monitor the weights I use. I think training to failure recruits tons of muscle fibers, therefore you require less sets. Thats my opinion and what works for me. I think when you use a 5 x 5 program, you are actually able to get at least 8 reps for the first set, then 7 for the second, and etc. When it comes to squats, I will get as many reps as possible, then I will use the rest pause method to force out a few more. Sometimes, on my last set, I will put on 225lbs and will squat for 4 to 5 minutes straight just to shock the lower body. I believe that Tom Platz did something similar, except he squatted for 10 minutes straight
.
needsize: sounds like the 5x5 system is a method of doing several different intensity sets throughout your workout. One or two light/moderate, one or two moderate to hard, one or two hard and to failure...
Sounds good...
B True
Sounds good...
B True
louden_swain
New member
I got a few questions about the 5 x 5 system. Are the first two sets considered warmups? Which sets are the building sets?
vinylgroover
New member
I guess it all depends on a person's definition of a working set. Some would say that 10 reps with a weight is a warm up, others would call that a working set.
After my first exercise for each bodypart, i won't do any more warm ups.
ie a normal chest workout would be
Incline Bench 2 warm ups (15-20 reps) 3 working sets (5-8 reps)
Incline dumbells 2 sets (5-8)
Decline barbell 2 sets (6-8 reps)
Weighted dips 2 sets (6-8 reps)
After my first exercise for each bodypart, i won't do any more warm ups.
ie a normal chest workout would be
Incline Bench 2 warm ups (15-20 reps) 3 working sets (5-8 reps)
Incline dumbells 2 sets (5-8)
Decline barbell 2 sets (6-8 reps)
Weighted dips 2 sets (6-8 reps)
bignate73
New member
5x5 (though i love it) is too hard and final of a number. individual differences (fiber type ratio, fitness level, recovery capabilities etc) will dictate what actually works. thought there have been generalizations within the training industry ie4-6 for strength, 8-12 for hypertrophy etc. these are general guidelines based on averages. maybe someone with a high white fiber ratio stays down near 8 for growth, someone more "blessed" hehe with red fibers would stay near 12. 5 reps as the end all is fun but too limiting. though given the fact that the first 2 sets are not even taken to max tension, they seem more like they would hit in the 8 rep range whereas the last few sets are getting closer to max tension as the person gets tired. so keeping the same weight throughout will actually simulate a more pyramid type scheme but the first 2 sets (or so) are not taken to max tension reps. the increasing of weight the next time permits for overload progression provided supercompensation has occured.
like i said, i like 5x5 but its not for everyone.
just some thoughts....
like i said, i like 5x5 but its not for everyone.
just some thoughts....
Lord_Suston
New member
straight sets
I try not to do these because you tend to shoot for a certain number and many myself included get into the habit of using bad form to get those last few reps.... Also I tend to warmup a little longer than most of the lifters I see. Props to the people who warmup with the bar, I do tyhis to get my form down perfectly before I start going heavy.
45*20
155*15
205*15
then I go balls to the wall with what weight I am lifting that weekfor two sets. I find this way to avoid being hurt, I try not to do forced reps unless you have trained with your spotter a long time and have good faith in them....
I try not to do these because you tend to shoot for a certain number and many myself included get into the habit of using bad form to get those last few reps.... Also I tend to warmup a little longer than most of the lifters I see. Props to the people who warmup with the bar, I do tyhis to get my form down perfectly before I start going heavy.
45*20
155*15
205*15
then I go balls to the wall with what weight I am lifting that weekfor two sets. I find this way to avoid being hurt, I try not to do forced reps unless you have trained with your spotter a long time and have good faith in them....
coolcolj
New member
Failure is just an indicator of metabolic fatigue
Its not needed for growth - ie shooting someone's leg will hurt enough as is, you don't have to chop it off with an axe
Going to failure always compromises form, and your rep speed slows down. I sure as hell am not gonna try go to failure with 670lbs on my back with full squats, one squirm the wrong way at the sticking point an dyour lower back is gone
Its not needed for growth - ie shooting someone's leg will hurt enough as is, you don't have to chop it off with an axe
Going to failure always compromises form, and your rep speed slows down. I sure as hell am not gonna try go to failure with 670lbs on my back with full squats, one squirm the wrong way at the sticking point an dyour lower back is gone
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T
The Shadow
Guest
good discussion.....
gettinlarger
New member
needsize said:
needsize, i'm on my 3rd week of this training method of yours, and i absolutely love it. my strength is skyrocketing, and ive thrown on at least 4 pounds in 2 weeks. the only thing i do differently than you is the fact that i use one set for a warmup, then 4x5.
training
I follow two training programs that rotate every 7-9 weeks.. Ones a 5x5 program the other is DY's olympia program from his book a warriors story.. When I do the 5x5 the first set is the bar second set is 25-30 pounds short of my first target set.. All the target sets have the same weight.. For the first target set the weight is really heavy, I just get 5 reps and would have no chance in hell of 6 reps.. After 2-5 min rest I do the second set and once again just make it.. The last set I go for 5 again if I only get 4 then the weight stays the same for next week If I get 5 I up each target set 5 pounds for the next time..Now while in the last set if I just get 4 I still try for 5.. For me failure sends a strong signal to my body telling it i need more.. Thats at least how I do my 5x5 ill let needsize describe his..
Vigorous
I follow two training programs that rotate every 7-9 weeks.. Ones a 5x5 program the other is DY's olympia program from his book a warriors story.. When I do the 5x5 the first set is the bar second set is 25-30 pounds short of my first target set.. All the target sets have the same weight.. For the first target set the weight is really heavy, I just get 5 reps and would have no chance in hell of 6 reps.. After 2-5 min rest I do the second set and once again just make it.. The last set I go for 5 again if I only get 4 then the weight stays the same for next week If I get 5 I up each target set 5 pounds for the next time..Now while in the last set if I just get 4 I still try for 5.. For me failure sends a strong signal to my body telling it i need more.. Thats at least how I do my 5x5 ill let needsize describe his..
Vigorous
b fold the truth said:
That's kinda it, when I do it I really concentrate on performing the reps slow and isolating the target muscle as much as I can, so even on the non-failure sets, you're still getting a lot of muscle fibre stimulation. But for me it's performing the same work out for a given # of weeks, but constantly adding weight that forces my body to grow to adapt.
loudin, I don't really count the first sets of 5 to be warmups, but in a way they are. I do a lot of warmup sets before I get to the first set of 5 though. For example, on squat day I'll do 10 reps with just the bar, 8 reps with 135, 5 reps with 225, 5 reps with 315, say 2 reps on 315, then my working sets on 405lbs. My warmups are just enough to get the muscle ready to hit hard, but they dont fatigue me
I do agree with big nate as well, the system might not work as well for everyone. I'm always changing the program myself, ie, as part of post cycle gains keeping I've switched to 5 sets of 3 reps instead, and am hitting weights for those sets that I was happy to single 6 months ago.
gettinlarger, glad to hear it's working, I love success stories
Needsize, what's up man? Sounds like your training is going pretty good.
I just wanted to say that the 5x5 system sounds like its good, but like every 'heavy weight/low rep' system, I personally don't think it should be used for more than about a month, followed by 2-3 months of higher rep-range workouts, like 8-12.
My training doesn't change that much when trying to add bulk other than going down to a 4-6 rep range, but still not with every set of these workouts (At least 2 sets of every exercise are higher rep). I'll only do this for about a month, then go back to the 8-12 rep range system for a bit.
I should also say that I do every set to failure! But I NEVER use a spotter.
Personally, I think this will give you a better physique in the long run, with less chance of training injuries.
Just my opinion.
I just wanted to say that the 5x5 system sounds like its good, but like every 'heavy weight/low rep' system, I personally don't think it should be used for more than about a month, followed by 2-3 months of higher rep-range workouts, like 8-12.
My training doesn't change that much when trying to add bulk other than going down to a 4-6 rep range, but still not with every set of these workouts (At least 2 sets of every exercise are higher rep). I'll only do this for about a month, then go back to the 8-12 rep range system for a bit.
I should also say that I do every set to failure! But I NEVER use a spotter.
Personally, I think this will give you a better physique in the long run, with less chance of training injuries.
Just my opinion.
