To All Bill Starr 5x5 Users

[Anthrax Invasion]

Have any of you noticed shoulder pain from flat bench pressing, especially when running the intensity phase?

Do you do rows with a pronated or supinated grip?

Do you do pullups with a pronated or supinated grip?

I ask because the prospect of longevity is important to me, as is becoming bigger and stronger. I know that the flat bench can be a dangerous exercise for the shoulders. What worries me more than anything is running into triples with very heavy weights with the exercise.

I also know that doing most pulling movements with an overhand grip can be detrimental to the cuffs. I was thinking of doing pullups with an underhand (supinated) grip, as well as rows.

Any thoughts on this, and whether or not it will negatively effect my routine?

Also considering making flat bench press a 30 degree incline, and sticking with standing overhead pressing on Wednesday.

 

[Micker]

Yes, at the end of my 4th week, my shoulders were SORE. Felt like I climed a mountain. Not so much muscle sore, just like my joints were smoked. The 5x5 has so many exercises that you use your shoulders for. On top of that they are all HEAVY. I don't think that benching is the main problem for your shoulder pain. If anything it could be the heavy deads or Military presses. The pullups actually seem to make them sore for me.

I do rows with a pronated(palms down) grip. I think it would work bi's more to do them supinated.

Pullups I do 3 sets Pronated(palms away) and 2 supinated. I like doing a couple supinated sets for the arms, seems to build mass well.

 

[Guinness5.0]

I think a lot of it is individual. I had no shoulder issues whatsoever- never have had any shoulder problems other than very minor cuff tweaks from going too heavy on upright rows.

One thing that I think helps me in terms of shoulder health is that I have always used some sort of a heavy rowing movement along with pressing and the two are close as far as weight goes. At the end of my first 5x5 run I tripled 315 on bench and 300 on parallel bb rows. Being nearly as strong in the row means that I'm able to control and balance my bench press weight without undue stress on my shoulders. Also, overhead pressing serves this purpose- it strengthens the cuffs themselves as well.

Of course if you have previous injuries then I don't know what to tell you. I'm just guessing as to why I've never had trouble despite the rather common occurance of injury to those who are frequent benchers.

EDIT: Got carried away and didn't answer your q . I did all my movements pronated.

Also, I'd bench flat as you can apply more load that way, unless you have an injury already.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

i run all my movements pronated because it's harder on the forarm and bicep. I see no reason why a supinated grip would effect the rotator cuff, because the rotation is in the forearm and not the shoulder. If you have flexibility problems and you have to flair your elbows to keep a pronated grip then you might run into issues with the shoulder. Keep your elbows in during all pressing and pushing motions (relatively). Basically keep the elbows inline with your grip. When I see people doing BBer bench with the elbows waaaay out it makes me cringe.

If you gain muscle and strength fast, consider slowing down a bit on the weight increase or even dropping your work weights. Dont just grind though the pain. You might be outgrowing your tendons and ligaments. They are slower to adapt as compared to muscle.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Switching from a pronated to a supinated grip actually has some rotation up to the shoulder. You can feel it if you place your hand over your deltoids, holding your arm up as if doing a pullup, and switch grips by rotation the wrist/forearm. It might not feel like much, but I've heard people complaining in the past from using an overhand grip with these.

To be honest, my shoulder pain may be related to a bicep tendon issue instead. I'll probably stick with the pronated movements, as they tend to be harder, and I don't feel as accomplished when I choose supinated instead. If I wind up with any problems, I'll let everyone know. Chances are, I'm just being paranoid.

Of course, thanks for all the input, everyone.

 

[Kane Fan]

I never heard about the overhand grip being a problem for the shoulders before
do you do a bodybuilding style bench or a clsoer gripped elbows in powerlifter style bench?

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

I bench the same as CCJ. Close grip, no arch or leg drive, shoulder blades tucked.

 

[blut wump]

I'll add my weight to Guinness5.0's answer. Nothing else, really, to add to it since, except that he moves more weight than I do, I'd write almost the same.

Try varying your grip on the bench. Try wider and narrower variations.

 

[TheOak84]

i had some knee issues, because of squatting like a jack ass but that has been taken care of

 

[suckamc44]

I never had any shoulder issues(actually my shoulders got way stronger), but I did start to have elbow pain if I tried to shoot baskets the day after a bench day. But I think for me that had more to do with strength imbalances(very strong triceps/weak biceps) more so than any thing inherent to the program

 

[Island Son]

i do feel my shoulder "slip" a bit when i bench the bar. From the 25's up, it's OK. Today i did 3x3 at 265, pressing from just above the chest to short of lockout, release slowly after the bar is racked, no problems.
pronated grip on the rows and pullups; my rows and bench are even so far

 

[JL_204]

I think a lot of it is individual. I had no shoulder issues whatsoever- never have had any shoulder problems other than very minor cuff tweaks from going too heavy on upright rows.

One thing that I think helps me in terms of shoulder health is that I have always used some sort of a heavy rowing movement along with pressing and the two are close as far as weight goes. At the end of my first 5x5 run I tripled 315 on bench and 300 on parallel bb rows. Being nearly as strong in the row means that I'm able to control and balance my bench press weight without undue stress on my shoulders. Also, overhead pressing serves this purpose- it strengthens the cuffs themselves as well.

Of course if you have previous injuries then I don't know what to tell you. I'm just guessing as to why I've never had trouble despite the rather common occurance of injury to those who are frequent benchers.

EDIT: Got carried away and didn't answer your q . I did all my movements pronated.

Also, I'd bench flat as you can apply more load that way, unless you have an injury already.

I totally agree. If you cant row close to your bench wieght than you more than likely have a muscle imbalance.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

Even if your row and bench is neck and neck, the rotators can be out of balance. My row and bench is about the same (which is still good) but my rear rotators are much looser than the front and they take constant work to keep them strong and tight. Everybody will need to listen to their body.

island son, do you do any direct rotator exercises? If you are feeling your shoulder slipping, gliding, shifting, or resetting during a workout you should address the issue NOW and not later. The reason it goes away with heavier weight is 1) your muscles are warming up and expanding and 2) the heavier weight causes the muscles surrounding the shoulder to tighten. Just because it goes away doesnt mean there isnt a problem. Chances are your shoulder will not fix itself on it's own. If you do have a dislocation or misplacement it will happen when you least expect it and your shoulder is cold (and loose and relaxed). Seriously, listen your what your shoulders are saying and play it on the safe side for longevity sake.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

I've heard great things about ART. Before I go that route, though, maybe I should get an MRI to check if anything is actually wrong with my shoulder.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

if your shoulder is just a bit loose and there are no rough spots or grinding in your ROM, an MRI is a waste of money. It wouldnt hurt anything if you just want to get one though.

You dont have to go as far as ART, just do exercises like http://www.aafp.org/afp/980215ap/980215a.html

the first three can be done standing with light bands. The last one can be done laying on a table with very light weights (one pounders). I never liked being on a table for the first three, it makes the ROM very limited and ineffective. always keep your form tight and keep the elbow stationary. All of the movement is from the shoulder.

 

[Island Son]

thank jrh
slip was probably the wrong word. it's not the joint, more in the side delt area. I had a chiro check it out a couple months ago, she gave me the technical explanation about a muscle sliding in a groove in the shoulder... essentially no big deal, there's zero pain, do rotator exercises.
i did supinated grip on rows and pullups (ie turn them into chinups) but as the weight went up it was too hard on my wrists and inner forearms so i stopped after a couple times.