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This is going to PISS-OFF the ACLU

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Schools risk U.S. funds if prayer isn't tolerated (States must Certify by March 15th)
Philadelphia Enquirer ^ | Sat, Feb. 15, 2003 | By Jim Remsen


Posted on 02/15/2003 10:10 PM PST by 11th_VA


In one fell swoop, the federal government this month told public schools that they must accommodate religious speech - and warned school districts that they would risk losing federal funds if they did not allow "constitutionally protected prayer."

The detailed directive came with a March 15 compliance deadline, causing districts around the country to quickly begin assessing their policy manuals and preparing reports to their states.

The guidelines - which say schools may show "neither favoritism toward nor hostility against religious expression" - do not break legal ground on this sometimes-contentious topic, but the threat of financial penalties is a first.

The directive is also unusual because the federal government traditionally leaves issues of school policy to state and local governments, one school-prayer scholar said yesterday.

At stake for school districts is $11.5 billion in Title I money for needy public schools. New Jersey schools are getting $257 million in Title I funds this year, while Pennsylvania's receive $600 million, including $101 million for Philadelphia.

The directive was issued Feb. 7 by the Department of Education as part of the phase-in of the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, the sweeping law requiring greater performance by students and teachers.

"What we are trying to do," department chief counsel Brian Jones said yesterday, "is bring some clarity to the perceived fuzziness in the law by letting districts know exactly what the courts are saying and standardizing that view."

The directive drew immediate fire from critics, including Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, who said the department "is clearly trying to push the envelope on behalf of prayer in public schools."

Several other analysts interviewed this week, however, agreed with the department's stance that the instructions build on 1999 guidelines from the Clinton administration and reflect Supreme Court rulings.

According to the directive, schools must allow prayer provided it happens outside of classroom instruction - such as at an assembly or sporting event - and is initiated by students, not school officials.

Students taking part in assemblies may not be restricted in expressing religious ideas as long as they were chosen as speakers through "neutral, evenhanded criteria," the guidelines say. Schools may issue disclaimers clarifying that such speech does not represent the institution.

Also, teachers are permitted to meet for prayer or Bible study before school or after lunch, provided they make clear they are not acting in their "official capacities."

By March 15, school districts must certify to their states that they have "no policy that prevents, or otherwise denies participation in, constitutionally protected prayer."

Districts do not need to develop rules covering each point but simply must certify that "they have no policy that undermines" the protected behaviors, said Jones, the federal counsel.

The directive was approved by the Justice Department office of legal counsel, "which serves as the last word for interpretation of the Constitution," Jones said.

Mark J. Pelavin of the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism called the guidelines a "good job" but said he wished the department had taken advice from outside experts.

"We would have helped them guide teachers about issues and concerns to be aware of, not just what's legal and what's not," Pelavin said.

"One child can give a presentation about Jesus, but when three or four do it, it feels different."

J. Brent Walker of the Baptist Joint Committee, a church-state separation group, told USA Today that the guidelines could "allow a student speaker at a school assembly to launch into a hateful hellfire-and-damnation sermon."

Jones countered that schools could prevent proselytizing under their rights to stop "disruptive behavior."

William P. Marshall, a school-prayer scholar at the University of North Carolina law school, said the directive was "not constitutionally suspect."

At the same time, he said, "the line between distinguishing when a school is endorsing religious expression or not is thin. By conditioning Title I funds on this, they are putting schools in a very precarious position."

Marshall said the directive also approached "federal intrusion and control. School policies are traditionally left to state and local governments."

Patrick Korten of the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty said the directive vindicated a Burlington County boy, Zachary Hood, whose mother sued the Medford School District in 1996 after the boy, then 6, was not allowed to read to his class from his beginner's Bible.

"It's a new day for Zack and millions like him," said Korten, whose group defended the boy. "In a very real sense, these are 'Zack's rules.' "

The boy's mother, Carol Hood, said yesterday that the directive "will help to avoid litigation, which is draining and depressing for children."

Andy Rosen, assistant general counsel for the Philadelphia School District, said Philadelphia would not have a problem meeting the compliance deadline "because we're not doing anything that would deny student participation" in religious activities.

Tim Allwein, a policy director for the Pennsylvania School Boards Association, said the quick deadline "is going to put this at the top of the list for districts, but I don't think it's going to cause a lot of problems for them. The question is clear; you are either denying access to constitutionally protected prayer or you're not."

In New Jersey, Education Department grant specialist Diane Schonyers said most New Jersey districts "have policies in place that do not prevent school prayer. But there's not a lot of time for any district to assess where it is and put any changes in place... . Because of the multiple levels of approval that include school boards, we need to be flexible."
 
ahh the Man Boy Association supporters. Ya they give money to a group that teaches men how to have sex with boys. But this is OK in the minds of some fuckin liberals,,,

That organization has lost sight of why it was created and has become a liberal mess.

I really don't know who I hate more, Liberals or Saddam it's a toss up

The ACLU will be all over this
 
I don't see why the ACLU would have a problem with this.

I went to a school where I was pretty much the only atheist and this was NOT tolerated. It would have been nice to have my freedom to say what I thought about religion to my fellow classmates constitutionally protected.

This directive does in fact ALSO protect atheist students who wish to make a humanist speech etc. Humanism isn't my creed BTW. Too libertarian (economically) for my socialist, lefting, Euro-tastes :D
 
A teacher at my old high school is also the local Baptist minister, and he's said a prayer over the loudspeaker at home football games ever since I can remember. He also used the word "nigger" while teaching a chapter that mentioned the NAACP in my social studies class- "The NAACP....or like my daddy used to say, 'Niggers Ain't Acting Like Colored People'.

This same teacher bans me from bringing muscle magazines to class because the fitness model photo spreads are "pornography" (this is 1996, before they started getting really risque).

This story's not completely relevant to the thread, but that is A-OK.

Yeee haw.
 
I'm all for prayer in schools, even though this isn't what the bill is about. But I'm sick of liberals stepping out of their constitutional boundaries.
 
casavant said:
A teacher at my old high school is also the local Baptist minister, and he's said a prayer over the loudspeaker at home football games ever since I can remember. He also used the word "nigger" while teaching a chapter that mentioned the NAACP in my social studies class- "The NAACP....or like my daddy used to say, 'Niggers Ain't Acting Like Colored People'.

This same teacher bans me from bringing muscle magazines to class because the fitness model photo spreads are "pornography" (this is 1996, before they started getting really risque).

This story's not completely relevant to the thread, but that is A-OK.

Yeee haw.

Remind me to avoid whatever town you went to high school in.
 
So which school is going to be the first to lose their federal dollars when they refuse to allow high school kids to form a satan worshipping club? You know it will happen.
 
While I despise the type of individual casavant mentioned, I feel that schools SHOULD remain neutral in the religious debate....prayer should be accepted, but not demanded..I dont feel that TEACHERS should be doing the praying, (ie, leading the class to pray)...if someone wishes to make a presenation, it is his right. The banning of religion is schools is unconstitutional also if I remember correctly.
 
Frackal said:
While I despise the type of individual casavant mentioned, I feel that schools SHOULD remain neutral in the religious debate....prayer should be accepted, but not demanded..I dont feel that TEACHERS should be doing the praying, (ie, leading the class to pray)...if someone wishes to make a presenation, it is his right. The banning of religion is schools is unconstitutional also if I remember correctly.

yup
 
Are the repubicans so opposed to the aclu because they try to save your personal rights from being abolished by Mr. Ashcroft?
 
Prayer in schools is stupid. Our school system is atrocious. Is this even an issue?

Jesus who? The immediate discrediting of Christianity (as well as Islam) would be a good place to start on this issue. Schools should teach the truth about religious history.

It is amazing that millions of people in this country actually believe this shit.
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
Prayer in schools is stupid. Our school system is atrocious. Is this even an issue?

Our school system is atrocious for the very reason why religion is demonized in society: the left's deconstruction of our culture.

Religion in schools is not a determinative factor, but I don't remember our school system being so bad when religion was a normal event. So, I fail to see the social ramification that led to its removal. It was not for infringement of individual rights, but for infringement of personal opinion, which is not protected.

Jesus who? The immediate discrediting of Christianity (as well as Islam) would be a good place to start on this issue. Schools should teach the truth about religious history.

What would be the truth? Would it be similar to the left's destruction of Americana? That our forefathers were really racist, xenophobic, misogynistic, murderers? That the nuclear family is really an outdated social contruct? Since the destruction of tradition and religion has always been a tenet of socialist/Marxist thinkers, I shudder to think that we would demand our school system to fully envelop intself in this duty.

It is amazing that millions of people in this country actually believe this shit.

It is a protected right and MUST remain protected.
 
atlantabiolab said:


Our school system is atrocious for the very reason why religion is demonized in society: the left's deconstruction of our culture.

Too inclusive. Certain parts of culture should be deconstructed.


Religion in schools is not a determinative factor, but I don't remember our school system being so bad when religion was a normal event. So, I fail to see the social ramification that led to its removal. It was not for infringement of individual rights, but for infringement of personal opinion, which is not protected.

This is a lot of "good old days" nonsense. People are so dogmatic about religion that it goes beyond opinion.



What would be the truth? Would it be similar to the left's destruction of Americana? That our forefathers were really racist, xenophobic, misogynistic, murderers? That the nuclear family is really an outdated social contruct? Since the destruction of tradition and religion has always been a tenet of socialist/Marxist thinkers, I shudder to think that we would demand our school system to fully envelop intself in this duty.

History should be taught with some accuracy in schools. How can you teach American history and not discuss slavery or the economic motives of our Nation's founders? why is it wrong to discuss the poverty of Native Americans as a result of their mass murder? This can be taught without deconstructing culture.

Likewise, how could any European history class not include the role of the church and of religion?

How do we do anyone (or the country) a service when these things are ignored? The proper place for religion in schools is in the history classes.



It is a protected right and MUST remain protected.

yes, the right to believe your own bullshit should be protected. The right to promulgate "protected" bullshit in schools should not be protected.
 
MattTheSkywalker said:


Too inclusive. Certain parts of culture should be deconstructed.

That maybe true, but with the advent of Critical Theory, very little of what would be considered Western European/American tradition has been demonized and trashed.

What parts do you feel should be deconstructed?

This is a lot of "good old days" nonsense. People are so dogmatic about religion that it goes beyond opinion.

No, there are objective measures of a society. Historians have studied civilizations and there are markers of a society that occur during its decline.

dog·ma
1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.
2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true.
3. A principle or belief or a group of them

I fail to see how dogma is construed as a negative. Are you insinuating that nothing is absolute? That subjectivism has primacy over objectivism? A religion without dogma is ineffective, which is essentially what is occuring today, in Catholicism.

History should be taught with some accuracy in schools. How can you teach American history and not discuss slavery or the economic motives of our Nation's founders? why is it wrong to discuss the poverty of Native Americans as a result of their mass murder? This can be taught without deconstructing culture.

Likewise, how could any European history class not include the role of the church and of religion?

How do we do anyone (or the country) a service when these things are ignored? The proper place for religion in schools is in the history classes.

How well do you think we are doing with the present form of history? Where all things European are evil. Where happy, innocent cultures were marauded and pillaged and all for the benefit of the evil rich white male. Take a look at what happens when some form of pride in the hardship and genius that was required to produce our country is removed and only the negative is focused on. Take a look at what happens when the country believes that all opinions are valid and none are better then the other. You can see it plain as day: they are called protesters. These people are not protesting real violations of human atrocities, they are protesting American culture and their indoctrinated hatred of themselves.

The roots of a country are her traditions, values and history. When you sever these, the people have no bonds and will fight for nothing and stand for nothing.

yes, the right to believe your own bullshit should be protected. The right to promulgate "protected" bullshit in schools should not be protected.

I agree that the government has no right to promulgate any religion. Actually I am for the abolition of the Department of Education and the public school system, or the least, school vouchers. Then Christian families could place their kids in Christian schools, Jewish families could place their kids in Jewish schools, atheists in non-religious schools, etc. There children would be taught the morals and values of their family and not that of the Department of Education.

Also, state and local control of schools are preferable to federal control, since localities could control what the local populace would deem as adequate. So if the local population was majority Baptist, then they could promote a pro-Baptist agenda.
 
The ACLU is bar none the best organization in America.;)
 
atlantabiolab said:


That maybe true, but with the advent of Critical Theory, very little of what would be considered Western European/American tradition has been demonized and trashed.

What parts do you feel should be deconstructed?


Most of Christianity and Islam should be deconstructed via accurate historical analysis.



No, there are objective measures of a society. Historians have studied civilizations and there are markers of a society that occur during its decline.

Many of those are useful only in hindsight.




I fail to see how dogma is construed as a negative. Are you insinuating that nothing is absolute? That subjectivism has primacy over objectivism? A religion without dogma is ineffective, which is essentially what is occuring today, in Catholicism.

what is occuring today (I assume you mean the child abuse scandals....) is the reconciliation of 800 years of dogma (back to pope Innocent III and the 4th lateran Council 1215) with a society that has free flow of information (USA).

The Catholic church condemned Americanism as a heresy in 1899 because of its strict dogma. Dogma is the antithesis of human progress. Doctrine is dfferent and is an integral part of a structured belief system. I am not trying to squirrel you with semantics; as I am sure you know, dogam and doctrine are two different things.



How well do you think we are doing with the present form of history? Where all things European are evil. Where happy, innocent cultures were marauded and pillaged and all for the benefit of the evil rich white male.

I don;t want to get too into history here as it is not the topic, but an accurate accounting of history preculdes this kind of labeling of all things european as evil, etc. This trype of thinking is a backlash against the last generation's education, which told them as children that all things European were good and that western culture towers over all others. This is the type of thinking and teaching that leads to racism and subjugation. Now we are seeing a backlash.

A true look at history (which schools simply don't provide) is the answer to these idiotic ideologies above (of either side). It has become easier for schools to teach history as "us againast them" (anyone can be us or them) when in reality it does not work that way. This education process is the culprit for why there are such lopsided ideologies floating around today.

If you understand the climate of Europe at the time of the first European landings in the New World, all of this makes sense and there is no need to revise history. Educators today act like history started in 1492 and then jumped to 1700. When do students learn about the Inquisition, which is really what fueled Columbus's journey? Never. Going back to the structure of socieities pre-New world would be real educaton. The influence of the Roman empire is still felt today around the world. No history course teaches that until you get to the graduate level in University.


I did not go on to your cometns on protestors protesting only their own self-hatred. In large part I agree, but I feel as if those issues were addressed in my comments above.
 
biteme said:
The ACLU is bar none the best organization in America.;)

Oh so your for fuckin little boys?

Do some research and you will find that your tax dollars which inturn fund the ACLU give a shit load of money to the Man Boy Association. Do some research on the Man BOy Assc. and see what you come up with.
Then come back and tell me who you can still support the ACLU..Please
Fuck the ACLU I'm not paying for boy fuckers.....

Now, later on this week, we're going to do a story about a Kentucky high school, where the ACLU came in and demanded the high school allow a gay organization to be funded by the school, just like the school band, and then the school was forced -- they wouldn't give in. They buckled and said, We won't have any clubs. They disbanded every club, so all the kids got hurt because now my question is, would the ACLU, if I wanted to come in with an S&M group, and say, I want to have a black leather whip club, does that have to be funded too?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,74880,00.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,73581,00.html
 
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