The US need a strong China

[mrplunkey]

right. So according to Jevon's Paradox, when we develop this huge ethanol infrastructure and the price of fuel drops we're going to use more, correct? Basically we're spinning our wheels here, not to mention the reduced MPG associated with ethanol fuels.

Cool! Then let's just use that logic and stop *all* forms of petrolium alternatives. We can let gas hit $25/gallon, and people will use radically less. That way we can stretch our existing reserves out for a hundred more years. After all, we wouldn't want to make it too cheap. A modern dry mill can make ethanol all day long for $1.05-$1.10 per gallon and we sure don't want that to happen (that's sarcasm, just in case you are wondering).

And ethanol, in an ethanol-tuned engine, delivers excellent MPG.

And finally... I saw a report yesterday that does a "walk" showing how we can double the production of corn over the next few years. If that's even close to accurate then we could almost get there on corn alone.

Ethanol is by far our best solution in the short term. No other solution even comes close.

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

Cool! Then let's just use that logic and stop *all* forms of petrolium alternatives. We can let gas hit $25/gallon, and people will use radically less. That way we can stretch our existing reserves out for a hundred more years. After all, we wouldn't want to make it too cheap. A modern dry mill can make ethanol all day long for $1.05-$1.10 per gallon and we sure don't want that to happen (that's sarcasm, just in case you are wondering).

And ethanol, in an ethanol-tuned engine, delivers excellent MPG.

And finally... I saw a report yesterday that does a "walk" showing how we can double the production of corn over the next few years. If that's even close to accurate then we could almost get there on corn alone.

Ethanol is by far our best solution in the short term. No other solution even comes close.

Okay, so going with your scenario here...

Gas hits $25 a gallon. What does ethanol cost? Is it still viable for the average joe? With regular unleaded at $25 what does 100octane (or whatever fuel) the other 15% of E85 cost? (I'm asking, not arguing)

What about modern engines that wont run for long on E85? More than one manufacturer of small engines has issued a notice saying blends more than 10% will not work with their engines.

For the part I bolded, are you Jesus? Can you get 1000 loaves of bread from 10? I dont see how there's not going to be a significant drop in fuel economy when using ethanol because of the smaller in BTU of ethanol compared to gasoline.

 

[mrplunkey]

Okay, so going with your scenario here...

Gas hits $25 a gallon. What does ethanol cost? Is it still viable for the average joe? With regular unleaded at $25 what does 100octane (or whatever fuel) the other 15% of E85 cost? (I'm asking, not arguing)

The idea is to have a low-cost alternative to gasoline that will have a negative impact on gasoline. With ethanol being reliably made at $1.05-$1.10 a gallon, it will help keep gasoline prices lower by two mechanisms: 1) as a viable substitute product it will help control the market price and 2) it will reduce our overall dependence on oil and provide some relief on an already overstressed commodity.

What about modern engines that wont run for long on E85? More than one manufacturer of small engines has issued a notice saying blends more than 10% will not work with their engines.

Conventional gasoline-only engines do not have fuel injectors or carburators that take advantage of ethanol's higher octane rating, hence they don't make full use of ethanol. The also lack stainless steel fittings in key areas because ethanol is somewhat more corrosive than gasoline. For example, in an ethanol plant's storage and fermentation tanks have to be made of the next-to-highest grade of stainless steel (it's partially to prevent infections too, but that's another issue).

For the part I bolded, are you Jesus? Can you get 1000 loaves of bread from 10? I dont see how there's not going to be a significant drop in fuel economy when using ethanol because of the smaller in BTU of ethanol compared to gasoline.

I'm not Jesus, but many women report seeing God when they are "with" me in the Biblical sense -- does that count?

People love to cite the lower "energy content" of ethanol, but that's a very common misconception. A BTU (British Thermal Unit) is the quantity of heat required to raise 1 pound of water by 1 degree Fahrenheit -- it's a measure of the thermal "power" of a substance. But there is a problem... heat doesn't make a car go -- explosions do. And ethanol is much more explosive. So even though E85 has only 80,000 BTU/gallon and gasoline has 124,800 BTU/gallon, a lot more of E85's energy is delivered in the form of explosion and less in the form of heat. A car's primary energy product is heat actually... and it's secondary energy product is motion. E85 lowers that gap significantly. With higher compression ratios found in committed E85 engines (as opposed to today's FFV's), E85's higher explosiveness will make the BTU difference insignificant.

Hope this helps

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

The idea is to have a low-cost alternative to gasoline that will have a negative impact on gasoline. With ethanol being reliably made at $1.05-$1.10 a gallon, it will help keep gasoline prices lower by two mechanisms: 1) as a viable substitute product it will help control the market price and 2) it will reduce our overall dependence on oil and provide some relief on an already overstressed commodity.

Where is the demand destruction going to come from? All that increasing the supply side of the energy equation is going to do is to make it cheaper. If gasoline is $7 a gallon, ethanol isnt far behind from the fertilizer, diesel etc... it takes to make it.

People love to cite the lower "energy content" of ethanol, but that's a very common misconception. A BTU (British Thermal Unit) is the quantity of heat required to raise 1 pound of water by 1 degree Fahrenheit -- it's a measure of the thermal "power" of a substance. But there is a problem... heat doesn't make a car go -- explosions do. And ethanol is much more explosive. So even though E85 has only 80,000 BTU/gallon and gasoline has 124,800 BTU/gallon, a lot more of E85's energy is delivered in the form of explosion and less in the form of heat. A car's primary energy product is heat actually... and it's secondary energy product is motion. E85 lowers that gap significantly. With higher compression ratios found in committed E85 engines (as opposed to today's FFV's), E85's higher explosiveness will make the BTU difference insignificant.

Hope this helps

If you cant post the kinetics to back that up, you're just making it up. I've read everything I can in the last week regarding ethanol and noboday has said anything like that.

 

[Mr. dB]

Corning Corelle is good strong china. You can drop one of those plates and it won't even break.

 

[Phenom78]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Neo-cons try to portray China as the next evil state to boost the defense budget and push protectionist ideas

ahahahah

Yes because the mafia in control of China requires propogandizing to be made to look bad.

And who is pushing protectionist policies?

Let me give you a hint. Which party is dependent on the uniuon interests who wish to block imports from any country which does not compensate its workers equivelantly?