The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence...and a question

[Nathan]

One of the people in charge of SETI was at my school giving a talk and I sat down with a few other grad students to talk with her for about an hour.
A pantload of money goes into building the telescopes necessary for the search and this woman has to hit up people like Paul Allen (co-founder of Microsoft I think) for millions of dollars. That would be a weird job. Hey, can I have 50 million dollars? That would be superb, thanks."

I'm not sure I'd donate to SETI if I had that kind of money. I certainly think there lis life out there, but my bet is searching for biosignatures will prove the best way to go. Still, if one were to find biosignatures, you'd almost have to do a quick search for any sort of coherent message just in case. You know the conditions for life are there, might as well check for intelligence.

In any event, I am curious what people think of funneling large sums of money into this sort of thing? I mean, one could argue that the money could be better spent elsewhere, maybe even used to save lives. Before you answer, bear in mind the telescopes were built as cheap as possible and are also used for other publishable science that is non-ET related.

 

[mrplunkey]

As long as it's not dollars forced from taxpayers, I think contributions to the project are way cool.

 

[Nathan]

I'll also throw this out there: The Earth is not permanent. It is very finite and thus so are we so long as we remain cosmically-immobile. If you envisage humanity surviving for a long time to come, obviously you will need this sort of research to perpetuate our, and other, species.
Otherwise it's only a matter of time before dance itself is extinct. No more ballet. No more tap. No more ballroom dancing. And certainly no more modern jazz. Think about THAT.

 

[samoth]

Eh... with the horrible shape NASA's in, I'd have to disagree with putting money into SETI. I think NASA needs the funding more.

What's the ETA for ISS's completion? 2150?

Oh yeah. Take the goddamned politics out of NASA. That's why it's in horrible decline. Anyone traveling into space knows the risks and is willing to accept them. Don't put off the program for 20 years and put 70% of your funding into needless saftey crap. Newsflash, geniuses: Travelling into outer-fucking-space will never be 100% safe. Now shut up and get back to doing something important for mankind. I'd be freakin' honoured to die in space exploration, and I'm certainly not the only one. I'd really like to know who the hell is in charge of NASA or giving them stupid orders to ground everything for one little explosion. The only press NASA gets anymore is regarding domestic bickering and astronaut's personal lives.

 

[Nathan]

I really need to start using the karma button so I can spread it around. It's convenient for a quick message sometimes.

Anyways, I agree with you Samoth. There will always be risks and yeah, minimizing them is key but not at the sort of price you are referring to. I really don't know all that much about that aspect of it but I'll take your word on it. Good post dude.

And I have no idea about the ISS's completion date. I can't even remember what that is.

 

[samoth]

I don't recall the date of competion either. I just find it pathetic that our government (who else is in on the ISS? Russia?) actually put into action a freakin' space station, then totally put it on the back burner.

Space is the biggest area of science left open and available to explore and research. On the other extreme in HEP, accelerators are nearing the point where whe physically can't achieve higher energy. I don't know much at all about politics, but I'm guessing that investors and others who heavily fund scientific frontiers don't see an immediate (in their lifetime) return on their investment, so they're going elsewhere. The space program looks bad in the public's eyes because the media waaaay overcovered the deaths of a few astronauts. C'mon, there was an accident, they died. Honor them and move foward. How many people die in car accidents every day? Yeah.

God forbid people actually work towards something that will bring together mankind. Seriously, just take a few billion of the trillions going into drug sales and deveopment or something. When something can't be used to immediately extort money from the masses and make huge profeits it seems to be doomed to failure.

It's good to know the world we leave to our progeny will be full of FDA-approved lifetime drug addicts either killing each other over the few remaining natural resources, or living some sort of vegetable-like existance while hooked up to a video game that allow the users to completely withdraw from the real world without even having to be bothered by annoying daily bodily functions.

And we think we're an advanced, superior species. Go us.

 

[Nathan]

Given current population sizes and the rate of disappearance of our natural resources, we could very well have been the luckiest of the luckiest species on this planet. Everyone even so short back as a few hundred years had considerably shorter lifespans, did not have the same sort of entertainment and comfort we are accustomed to, no pain medication, etc. After us, things could get much worse and sometihng catastrophic could happen and then that could be it. We could have lived at the ideal time in Earth's history.

 

[samoth]

Given current population sizes and the rate of disappearance of our natural resources, we could very well have been the luckiest of the luckiest species on this planet. Everyone even so short back as a few hundred years had considerably shorter lifespans, did not have the same sort of entertainment and comfort we are accustomed to, no pain medication, etc. After us, things could get much worse and sometihng catastrophic could happen and then that could be it. We could have lived at the ideal time in Earth's history.

Very true. It's easy to take today's commodities for granted.

Given population size and growth, I often wonder what's going to become the limiting factor of human life. Not that many people will care, though. They'll just plug into a video game or similarsuch and continue to ignore the real world. No one's really going to care about those overrated natural resources until we run out or governments cut the general public off. Then, everyone'll throw a huge tantrum and complain that nothing was done x years ago. Gotta love human nature.

 

[Nathan]

I don't think anybody on here cares dude. I think it's just you and me. This is not good. We're headed for disaster.

 

[mrplunkey]

Eh... with the horrible shape NASA's in, I'd have to disagree with putting money into SETI. I think NASA needs the funding more.

What's the ETA for ISS's completion? 2150?

Oh yeah. Take the goddamned politics out of NASA. That's why it's in horrible decline. Anyone traveling into space knows the risks and is willing to accept them. Don't put off the program for 20 years and put 70% of your funding into needless saftey crap. Newsflash, geniuses: Travelling into outer-fucking-space will never be 100% safe. Now shut up and get back to doing something important for mankind. I'd be freakin' honoured to die in space exploration, and I'm certainly not the only one. I'd really like to know who the hell is in charge of NASA or giving them stupid orders to ground everything for one little explosion. The only press NASA gets anymore is regarding domestic bickering and astronaut's personal lives.

Lets privatize NASA and spread the money among private corporations that compete for space projects!

 

[UA_Iron]

we need to put more money into designing a computer that can give me head as well as providing hours upon hours of visual stimulation.

 

[mrplunkey]

we need to put more money into designing a computer that can give me head as well as providing hours upon hours of visual stimulation.

I cannot argue with spending money on that. It would clearly be for the greater good.

 

[HumorMe]

Didn't they make two movies about this?

Contact and E.T.

 

[Raptorex]

are we not men...

We are Devo...

 

[nimbus]

50 million bucks would make a lot more of a difference to SETI than it would to NASA, which has a budget of like over 10 billion. I think the program is worth the money; if we do find extra terrestrial intelligence it will be one of the most important things to ever happen to humanity. The ability to share knowledge with such radically different species or at least cultures has the potential to enrich almost every aspect of our lives. As for using the money to save lives...we could exhaust all the world's resources trying to save every life on earth or solve every problem, and it still wouldn't be enough. Eventually i feel like you just have to draw a line. The world is overcrowded anyway, and frankly i just don't care if people who i'll never be exposed to are dying. Finding other life on earth would make me a lot happier than saving their lives.

 

[stosstruppe]

In any event, I am curious what people think of funneling large sums of money into this sort of thing? I mean, one could argue that the money could be better spent elsewhere, maybe even used to save lives. Before you answer, bear in mind the telescopes were built as cheap as possible and are also used for other publishable science that is non-ET related.

Yea people will always come out with that argument "OMG you should be using this money to fund hospitals, schools, blah blah blah etc" (which clearly hasn't worked for Britain i.e. throwing money at the NHS which is another argument).

I am very much for funding research etc for extra terrestrial colonisation such as the moon so as to greatly enhance mankind's survivability should something happen to Earth.

 

[redguru]

I believe there are other sentient beings out there, but time and distance have set us apart. If thier evolutionary path is set apart from ours by 1M years in either direction, I doubt contact could be achieved. SETI is a decent project, however, and is well worth the effort to fund with private moneys.

 

[redguru]

I agree with Nathan in the idea that terra-forming and colonization should be our main priority in regards to the space program.

 

[Y_lifter]

My opinion would be that Jodi Foster needed to show some boobage in the movie Contact

I enjoyed that movie. Cool premise that someone sends us blueprints for a machine via radio tele..

 

[RottenWillow]

Eh... with the horrible shape NASA's in, I'd have to disagree with putting money into SETI. I think NASA needs the funding more.

What's the ETA for ISS's completion? 2150?

I dont see NASA funding increasing. The '60's "space race" funding was about implied military superiority and general chest thumping, not interest in scientific exploration. Plus the goals now are so longterm that the legislators dont see themselves enjoying any kind of personal payoff from consenting to the funding.

 

[Nathan]

Good points from rotten willow.

This is a lot more replies than I thought I'd get and I am surprised. It seems as though maybe with things like global warming coming to the forefront more and more and everything beeding to be considered on a global scale, people are starting to realize how truly small the Earth really is. We're getting close to the breaking point. I bet if I asked this question 30-50 years ago I'd have received very different answers.

 

[test boy ii]

I would prefer to search for intelligent signs of life at 1600...........oh never mind.

 

[jerkbox]

I would prefer to search for intelligent signs of life at 1600...........oh never mind.

nothin doin there....just a microcosm of brainless parasites

 

[test boy ii]

nothin doin there....just a microcosm of puppets

fixed

 

[samoth]

Yea people will always come out with that argument "OMG you should be using this money to fund hospitals, schools, blah blah blah etc" (which clearly hasn't worked for Britain i.e. throwing money at the NHS which is another argument).

Screw that. There's plenty of healthy people on this planet. We need to concentrate on furthering the human race. A good step would be people realizing that "black", "white" and "asian" are not different races. But hey, at least most people have accepted that the Earth is not the center of the Universe. That says something, right?

Meh. We obviously have a very, very long way to go.

RG/Nathan: We cry like babies when there's an accident and shut down the space program, not to mention we can't even build a half-assed space station. Wouldn't colonizing be a tad more extreme? We should work on orbiting the planet first. Baby steps...

And who says that scientists don't partake in occasional chest-thumping now and again? Actually, it's probably more along the lines of head-bashing-against-brick-wall after they realize there's 20 PhD's for every single tenure-track position and industry rejects their resume based on overqualification...

 

[jackangel]

something like NASA can never be divorced from politics. if it were privatized, the nature of the game would be changed, but there's always an agenda. it's just a question of who's setting it.

i too love the idea of finding other planets to colonize, mostly because we could then stop worrying so much about raping the earth. instead, we could thrust even harder, maybe start whispering really horrible things in gaia's ear.

 

[samoth]

something like NASA can never be divorced from politics. if it were privatized, the nature of the game would be changed, but there's always an agenda. it's just a question of who's setting it.

Credited. I certainly can't vouch for any knowledge in politics, but I am curious what the result would be if it were privatized or something else along those lines. I pretty much live in a fantasy bubble where I seem to think that there's always someone or something in power that actually cares about the betterment of mankind, completely indifferent to financial gain or government/political 'power'. Ignorance is bliss.

Willow made a good point, too. Will there ever be another event that will cause another 'space race'? There was a practicality to it back then, but now anyone with a few million to spare can throw a satelite in orbit (well, perhaps not that easily, lol). Beyond that, what practical reason might exist for two nations to go at it again? I doubt we'll be battling China for asteroid belt control or Mars soil samples anytime soon...

 

[jackangel]

Credited. I certainly can't vouch for any knowledge in politics, but I am curious what the result would be if it were privatized or something else along those lines. I pretty much live in a fantasy bubble where I seem to think that there's always someone or something in power that actually cares about the betterment of mankind, completely indifferent to financial gain or government/political 'power'. Ignorance is bliss.

Willow made a good point, too. Will there ever be another event that will cause another 'space race'? There was a practicality to it back then, but now anyone with a few million to spare can throw a satelite in orbit (well, perhaps not that easily, lol). Beyond that, what practical reason might exist for two nations to go at it again? I doubt we'll be battling China for asteroid belt control or Mars soil samples anytime soon...

i suppose NASA, or just about anything, in private hands would be an imrovement. that's not saying much...hard to fuck shit up worse than government does. and if you have a few, rich individuals (hypothetically speaking) to fund such an organization, they might just have desires or goals that are in line with what you or i might want.

 

[HiDnGoD]

I believe there are other sentient beings out there, but time and distance have set us apart. If thier evolutionary path is set apart from ours by 1M years in either direction, I doubt contact could be achieved. SETI is a decent project, however, and is well worth the effort to fund with private moneys.

I read today, the heavy elements that make up our existence, like carbon, Iron, etc were produced in the explosions of dying stars. Think of that. Over the millenia, how many stars were born with sentient beings living on planets going around some of those stars. To evolve from nothing, some to achieve space travel, then have their home starts go supernova. How many more will exist, 'til the end of time. And as you said, what are the chances that any of these civilizations could even be aware of each other, if they could even comprehend each other. My mind withers at the thought.

 

[paradox]

 

[heatherrae]

I'll also throw this out there: The Earth is not permanent. It is very finite and thus so are we so long as we remain cosmically-immobile. If you envisage humanity surviving for a long time to come, obviously you will need this sort of research to perpetuate our, and other, species.
Otherwise it's only a matter of time before dance itself is extinct. No more ballet. No more tap. No more ballroom dancing. And certainly no more modern jazz. Think about THAT.

NO MORE BALLROOM DANCING!

 

[samoth]

I read today, the heavy elements that make up our existence, like carbon, Iron, etc were produced in the explosions of dying stars. Think of that. Over the millenia, how many stars were born with sentient beings living on planets going around some of those stars. To evolve from nothing, some to achieve space travel, then have their home starts go supernova. How many more will exist, 'til the end of time. And as you said, what are the chances that any of these civilizations could even be aware of each other, if they could even comprehend each other. My mind withers at the thought.

Those have pretty much all been addressed on a theoretical basis at worst, and on a mathematical basis at best.

If you find your mind withering at such ideas, you should try practicing your mind to comprehend infinity: just concentrate on n, and let n-> infinity. (Sorry, that's an old math joke, lol.) There's some pretty nifty math that involves one infinity being larger than another infinity, doing operations in infinite-dimensional Hilbert space and cool stuff like that.

And I still want some gallium, dammit.

 

[jackangel]

my infinities are highly uncountable. more so than yours.

 

[HiDnGoD]

Those have pretty much all been addressed on a theoretical basis at worst, and on a mathematical basis at best.

If you find your mind withering at such ideas, you should try practicing your mind to comprehend infinity: just concentrate on n, and let n-> infinity. (Sorry, that's an old math joke, lol.) There's some pretty nifty math that involves one infinity being larger than another infinity, doing operations in infinite-dimensional Hilbert space and cool stuff like that.

And I still want some gallium, dammit.

I've done that, ever since I was a little kid. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I have a hell of an imagination. Just trying to relate to things like light speed, the actual distance involved in light years, the whole "What we are seeing is actually millions of years past" kind of stuff. As a little boy it was mind boggling, and it hasn't gotten much better.
I have 396 grams of unobtainium I can sell you.

 

[Lao Tzu]

We should direct some more funding at meteor detection and defense. Even though the odds are low it should be a higher priority.

A space elevator would also be nice, but right now is not economically feasable. I don't know how close we are to doing it technologically.

SETI is cool, but all in all even if we detect alien life its not like we can communicate with them in any meaningful way. But on the plus side the SETI telescopes can be used for other purposes than finding alien life. It isn't like it is just for that one purpose.

I'm a realist. I prefer research that benefits people over research that is just 'neat'. I personally don't see much benefit from finding ET over being able to say 'we are not alone'. If finding ET somehow changes our views on humanity in a subtle way for the better (ie, we become more responsible and more humane as a result of realizing life is out there) then I'd be all for it. But that is a big if.

Paul Allen also put $100 million into decoding all the genes expressed in a mouse brain. There is research that can actually be used as this will advance neurology.

 

[Lao Tzu]

I'll also throw this out there: The Earth is not permanent. It is very finite and thus so are we so long as we remain cosmically-immobile. If you envisage humanity surviving for a long time to come, obviously you will need this sort of research to perpetuate our, and other, species.
Otherwise it's only a matter of time before dance itself is extinct. No more ballet. No more tap. No more ballroom dancing. And certainly no more modern jazz. Think about THAT.

Have you heard of the concept of Kardashev civilizations? A type 1 uses all the energy of earth, type 2 all of the solar system, type 3 all in the galaxy, type 4 all in the universe. Humanity is a few decades away from being an introductory type 1 civilization. Supposedly type 2's are technologically advanced enough to avoid all astronomical dangers. My understanding from people like Kurzweil is that humanity will enter type 2 in the 22nd century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

Besides, space elevators and meteor detection & nullification technology is necessary to survive.

 

[matty420]

Eh... What's the ETA for ISS's completion? 2150?

am i the only one who found that funny?