The Reaganomics Fraud:

[javaguru]

Honestly, certain aspects of socialism are appealing Sue me, I actually WANT to go live on a commune, I just can't find one. What's so wrong with pooling resources and working together toward a common good? I don't, and will never, understand why socialism is such a dirty word in this country. Frankly, a society completely focused on materialism and greed, driven only by self interest, is an ugly beast.

When you start saying "if you can't afford medical care you don't deserve it" or "if you can't afford a good education, and aren't smart enough to get scholarships, then you should spend the rest of your life poor" it's elitism, and that's better than socialism? Whatever happened to a little basic compassion, lending your fellow man a hand up?

If a "rich" person is going to resent paying more taxes than a "poor" person then let's take it to the logical conclusion, why do we permit mentally and physically handicapped individuals to collect SSD? For that matter, why do we even allow babies that are born that are hopeless cripples, that are abandoned by their parents, to live at all?

Why is it that the edges can be hard when we're talking about the top tax brackets versus the bottom brackets, and yet they start going all fuzzy when we're talking about people who will NEVER contribute a dime to society and be nothing but a 75 year drain on Social Security, Medicaid and all the other public service programs?

The reason is that socialism doesn't work in practice. The Soviet Union, North Korea, Cuba...Pilgrims are all historical examples of the failure of socialism. The pilgrims lived under a socialist commune charter initially but once they adopted private ownership they thrived. The colony leader remarked in his diary that once private ownership was adopted the women that used to complain of sickness and weakness as an excuse to avoid toiling in the fields became strong of body and spirit when they were working for themselves. In economics it's called the tragedy of the commons....something owned by everyone isn't properly cared about by anyone.

The top producers already pay most of the income tax in the country, while over 40% of Americans pay no income tax. As far as corporations are concerned, higher taxes on corporations are a tax on everyone that buys goods or services from that corporation. Likewise, the current progressive tax code is a burden on economic development in this country because corporations will buy some politicians to modify the tax code and pass it on to consumers as part of doing business. Microsft learned the hard way that spending millions of dollars on lobbyists is cheaper than defending against a government lawsuit that went nowhere.

 

[Mr. dB]

...while over 40% of Americans pay no income tax.

How many of them are retirees?

 

[Mr. dB]

The reason is that socialism doesn't work in practice. The Soviet Union, North Korea, Cuba...

That's Communism. Western Europe contains examples of Socialism without the totalitarianism or command economy. And while they're not doing too well right now, they're not doing any worse than we are.

It is my view that the pure forms of any economic or political system are all unworkable, whether it's Communism, Capitalism, Fascism, Libertarianism, they're all fatally flawed, all susceptible to greed. Success lies in cherry picking the issues, some problems can be solved by the market, and some require regulation or gov't control. Finding the balance is the hard part.

 

[javaguru]

That's Communism. Western Europe contains examples of Socialism without the totalitarianism or command economy. And while they're not doing too well right now, they're not doing any worse than we are.

It is my view that the pure forms of any economic or political system are all unworkable, whether it's Communism, Capitalism, Fascism, Libertarianism, they're all fatally flawed, all susceptible to greed. Success lies in cherry picking the issues, some problems can be solved by the market, and some require regulation or gov't control. Finding the balance is the hard part.

10% unemployment is normal in Europe as well as 2% gdp growth.

There is no socialist country in Europe...name a single major economy where the means of production are owned by the people? They are welfare states but certainly not socialist...


I have no problem with the government regulating behavior that harms me, providing a legal system or defending the country. That's a basic social contract...but the power brokers then want to tell me how to live my life...it doesn't matter if it's Hillary requiring Cindy to take a breast feeding course or Huckabee claiming God has told him who should be able to marry..they're basically the same. This country thrived and prospered under very little regulation. I'm on your side about crony capitalism but that is a function of a powerful central government.

 

[javaguru]

How many of them are retirees?

What's your point? My mother is almost 77 and she still works but she also gets a tax benefit while collecting social security. The average retiree reaps multiple in government benefits as opposed to what they paid into the system. If I ran a program like social security I would go to jail.

She doesn't pay a dime in income tax....I laugh at people that want to eliminate the Bush tax cuts, I agree if we eliminate all deductions, but you will get more tax revenue from people making less than 250k a year than those making more 250k a year if the Bush tax cuts are eliminated.

Everyone needs to pay and then maybe we wouldn't have an empire.

 

[mrplunkey]

That's Communism. Western Europe contains examples of Socialism without the totalitarianism or command economy. And while they're not doing too well right now, they're not doing any worse than we are.

It is my view that the pure forms of any economic or political system are all unworkable, whether it's Communism, Capitalism, Fascism, Libertarianism, they're all fatally flawed, all susceptible to greed. Success lies in cherry picking the issues, some problems can be solved by the market, and some require regulation or gov't control. Finding the balance is the hard part.

That's part of the fundamental disconnect here. Properly implemented capitalism isn't susceptible to greed. It relies on greed.

Greed is a fundamental human trait -- it's not going anywhere.

Greed can easily manifest itself as a member of a supposed capitalist/socialist/communist government hoarding money and other resources for themselves. This type of greed is incredibly destructive.

But greed can just as easily manifest itself as a member of private society working faster/harder/smarter in an attempt to make a better life for themselves. This form of greed is productive, because it produces a product that is inherently less expensive and/or better than previous ones. Everyone wins with this kind of greed.

When you have a government stealing more than 1/3 of the gains from producers, you are interfering with the beneficial form of greed and funding the destructive form of greed.

Now I'll ask again... what do you do? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Mr. dB]

That's part of the fundamental disconnect here. Properly implemented capitalism isn't susceptible to greed. It relies on greed.

Greed is a fundamental human trait -- it's not going anywhere.

Greed can easily manifest itself as a member of a supposed capitalist/socialist/communist government hoarding money and other resources for themselves. This type of greed is incredibly destructive.

But greed can just as easily manifest itself as a member of private society working faster/harder/smarter in an attempt to make a better life for themselves. This form of greed is productive, because it produces a product that is inherently less expensive and/or better than previous ones. Everyone wins with this kind of greed.

When you have a government stealing more than 1/3 of the gains from producers, you are interfering with the beneficial form of greed and funding the destructive form of greed.

Now I'll ask again... what do you do? I'm genuinely curious.

Good lord that's a load of pie in the sky. The greed that Capitalism is most susceptible to is Corruption.

 

[-SD-]

 

[mrplunkey]

Good lord that's a load of pie in the sky. The greed that Capitalism is most susceptible to is Corruption.

Here's what you don't get: The most evil, greedy, mean-spirited Fortune 500 executive still engages in less graft and corruption than a mid-range (Republican or Democrat) member of Congress.

I'm beginning to think capitalism hasn't worked-out so well for you, but I'm also willing to bet there are some terrible decisions that helped along the way.

 

[musclemom]

That's part of the fundamental disconnect here. Properly implemented capitalism isn't susceptible to greed. It relies on greed.

Greed is a fundamental human trait -- it's not going anywhere.

Here's the problem with a system, such as capitalism that as you so eloquently stated, relies on greed: Not everyone is greedy.

Here me out.

People who are not greedy are susceptible to the drives of those who are. It's like the difference between being inherently honest and being a pathological liar. A truly honest person can't lie, not well, and even if they do they will not enjoy it and in fact it can make them feel sick. A pathological liar doesn't give a shit.

Same thing with greed. A person who is not materialistically driven becomes a pawn of the greedy, a victim of a system they don't like and can't effectively participate in. A greedy person doesn't think twice about taking away from those who already have less than him whereas a generous person will reach into his own pocket and share what little he has with no regrets.

People who are not inherently greedy can't make themselves be that way, anymore than an honest person can turn themselves into a liar.

The Gordon Geko mentality is sickening to me. I don't believe that "he who has the most toys when he dies wins." Unfortunately, because my first instinct is NOT to think of how to cut someone else's throat for my own benefit, I've gotten it shoved up my ass sideways and broken off on more than one occasion. Here's the kicker, I realize all of this, yet I CANNOT make myself act like a conniving, golddigging cvnt, not even to fuck over someone who genuinely deserves it. Money isn't worth as much as my self respect.