The Reaganomics Fraud:

[Spartacus]

The reason is that socialism doesn't work in practice. The Soviet Union, North Korea, Cuba...Pilgrims are all historical examples of the failure of socialism. The pilgrims lived under a socialist commune charter initially but once they adopted private ownership they thrived. The colony leader remarked in his diary that once private ownership was adopted the women that used to complain of sickness and weakness as an excuse to avoid toiling in the fields became strong of body and spirit when they were working for themselves. In economics it's called the tragedy of the commons....something owned by everyone isn't properly cared about by anyone.

The top producers already pay most of the income tax in the country, while over 40% of Americans pay no income tax. As far as corporations are concerned, higher taxes on corporations are a tax on everyone that buys goods or services from that corporation. Likewise, the current progressive tax code is a burden on economic development in this country because corporations will buy some politicians to modify the tax code and pass it on to consumers as part of doing business. Microsft learned the hard way that spending millions of dollars on lobbyists is cheaper than defending against a government lawsuit that went nowhere.

socialism hardly/barely manages to work even in a family unit and perhaps a church org is the "best" situation I can see that concept working. and even then not often and still riddled with politics
but back to anyone with siblings. you likely griped more than be pleased that your sister/brother did less than yourself in the family campsite

except for the third reich
national socialism without doubt pulled germany from one of the deepest,if not the deepest positions in a worldwide depression
and perched Germany at the top circa 1936
the top

how could that be?

 

[billfred]

Odd, since slavery was abolished before modern-day labor unions OR the US Department of Labor were ever established...

Yeah - by businesses or the government?

 

[Spartacus]

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Some businesses will do anything to gain an advantage, and with no regulations or other oversight someone will push the limits of good taste, and as soon as one does it, everyone will have to if they want to compete.

and gov't is just as open to corruption as corporations

 

[WODIN]

That is a good story.

As a guy who hears the bean counters every day, let me tell you how the conversation goes:

BC: "Brian, costs in our XYZ facility are killing us. We're up 25% over prior year but revenues are flat."

Me: "How? We haven't had any huge raw materials increases and our pay rates aren't that outrageous."

BC: "Well, FDA came through and want us to redo the entire lighting system. Even though the fluorescent lights are 25 feet high, CFR 389823-F says that every flourescent light must have a plastic cover that meets ASTM standard 938823-L-8. That's going to cost us $125,000 or we can always fight it in court."

BC: "Then there's the sexual harassment lawsuit. Apparently the assistant to the plant manager told a secretary that she looks nice in green. That's going to run us about $100,000 or we can always fight it in court."

BC: "Then there's the product liability lawsuit. Even though we stitched the product up and put a label over the stitches explicitly stating not to put the product on backwards, the customer removed the label, cut-out the stitches and put it on backwards, even as our sales rep begged them not to do it. That's going to cost us another $150,000 or we can always fight it in court."

BC: "Then there's the worker's comp claim. As we were calling Joe in to fire him (he's been on probation for the last 9 months), he decided he hurt his back opening the door to the conference room. He's been spotted playing basketball with his buddies, but officially he's at home on disability. That's going to cost us $75,000 or we can always fight it in court."

BC: "Then there's OSHA. The requirements are that a stop button must be no less than 2.5" in diameter. Our machines are from Japan and the buttons are 6cm which is 0.35cm too small. They insist we replace all of those, which is another $100,000 or we can always fight it in court."

BC: "Then there's DoL. Apparently we didn't track our Vietnam veteran applicants properly. You aren't allowed to ask them where they served during the interview, but you are allowed to ask them how long. DoL is willing to settle for $250,000 or we can always fight it in court."

BC: "Then there's ..."

Me: "It's ok. I got it. What are our choices?"

BC: "Either close the plant or move it overseas."

Me: "Anything else?"

BC: "Well, we could shake down every vendor for a 5% concession, cut staff 10%, and freeze salaries. Plus we'll have to take a look at the dental and vision plans. They are too expensive. Let's start by cutting the maintenance staff."

So what do you do?

I would freeze salaries and revisit the vendors. But given all these basic fuck ups costing this much money the company probably should just fold due to incomptenance in the first place.

 

[WODIN]

The reason is that socialism doesn't work in practice. The Soviet Union, North Korea, Cuba...Pilgrims are all historical examples of the failure of socialism. The pilgrims lived under a socialist commune charter initially but once they adopted private ownership they thrived. The colony leader remarked in his diary that once private ownership was adopted the women that used to complain of sickness and weakness as an excuse to avoid toiling in the fields became strong of body and spirit when they were working for themselves. In economics it's called the tragedy of the commons....something owned by everyone isn't properly cared about by anyone.

The top producers already pay most of the income tax in the country, while over 40% of Americans pay no income tax. As far as corporations are concerned, higher taxes on corporations are a tax on everyone that buys goods or services from that corporation. Likewise, the current progressive tax code is a burden on economic development in this country because corporations will buy some politicians to modify the tax code and pass it on to consumers as part of doing business. Microsft learned the hard way that spending millions of dollars on lobbyists is cheaper than defending against a government lawsuit that went nowhere.

China, The Soviet Union and Cuba were selling themesleves as communist states, not socialist, really big difference there. Also they were, in practice, totalitarian regimes more than anything else which is an even greater departure from socalism.

The U.S. is a socialist country. We collect taxes at the federal and state level in support of various social programs and institutions. The very existance of a library or a public school is the existance of a "socialist state."

 

[mrplunkey]

I would freeze salaries and revisit the vendors. But given all these basic fuck ups costing this much money the company probably should just fold due to incomptenance in the first place.

So you'd pass the problem on to the vendors, which then forces someone else to downsize, freeze salaries and cut corners? That doesn't sounds very mean-spirited and conservative of you.

And don't think for a second that you're going to avoid your so-called "fuck ups". The regulations are written so loosely and are so open to interpretation that no one can avoid them. The plant with the lighting issue had been operating since 1983 and was being inspected every 18-24 months by FDA between now and then.

 

[Redrocker13]

China, The Soviet Union and Cuba were selling themesleves as communist states, not socialist, really big difference there. Also they were, in practice, totalitarian regimes more than anything else which is an even greater departure from socalism.

The U.S. is a socialist country. We collect taxes at the federal and state level in support of various social programs and institutions. The very existance of a library or a public school is the existance of a "socialist state."

What?! The presence of a public school or library? What dope smoking idiotic professor taught you that horse shit? That is one of the most ridiculous explanations of socialism I think I've ever heard. Just out of morbid curiousity, how does that equate to shared wealth? One of socialism's tenets by the way.

 

[mrplunkey]

The U.S. is a socialist country. We collect taxes at the federal and state level in support of various social programs and institutions. The very existance of a library or a public school is the existance of a "socialist state."

The US has some socialist elements in it, but is not a purely socialist country (yet).

And don't cite weak examples like public libraries and our morally corrupt and failing public school systems.

Better examples are medicare (which leads the country in health care denials, yet is still bankrupting us) and social security (which is also bankrupting us). Those are more fun to talk about.

 

[Redrocker13]

The US has some socialist elements in it, but is not a purely socialist country (yet).

And don't cite weak examples like public libraries and our morally corrupt and failing public school systems.

Better examples are medicare (which leads the country in health care denials, yet is still bankrupting us) and social security (which is also bankrupting us). Those are more fun to talk about.

Hmmmm, well put Plunk.

 

[WODIN]

So you'd pass the problem on to the vendors, which then forces someone else to downsize, freeze salaries and cut corners? That doesn't sounds very mean-spirited and conservative of you.

And don't think for a second that you're going to avoid your so-called "fuck ups". The regulations are written so loosely and are so open to interpretation that no one can avoid them. The plant with the lighting issue had been operating since 1983 and was being inspected every 18-24 months by FDA between now and then.

I don't equate liberal or conservative ideologies with running a business. A lot of the people I know across all these spectrums who do run succesfful businesses do so with the same basic philosophy of setting a profit goal and working towards that goal. If it means hiring less people or letting people go it happens. If it means outsourcing, it happens. Poltical ideologies tend ot fall to the side.

The fundamental notion of this thread was weather or not Supply Side economics with a focus on the Financing arm of the economy as the driver is a better model for growth than some other. I would say it failed fantastically over the past 10 years.

I really don't see this as a kock against captialism. I think capitalism has proven to be the most accepted model for resource management in terms of providing people with the means to meet their needs and wants. With SSE though the main driver of the economy has been dictated by financial institutions rather than the institutions that manage resources for production which is where the failure lies.

Any resource user would fair far better if left outside the bonds of the financial markets that are centrally controled through the Federal Reserve Bank. If these users had alternatives to financing for use in meeting their production needs then prices in the financial sector would be driven downward through greater competitive forces than are currently present in todays markets.

My statements on socialism are correct and factual. You may not like them or value them, however, none the less, they are true.