The most complete upper body single exercise

[trauck1506]

I don't think anyone will ever agree, so I'm just glad the gym I work out at doesn't have swiss balls. I also don't have knee wraps or a belt and did you mean while doing cable pull downs? I would have to unbolt the bike from the floor and some how get it in a tiny room lol.

 

[bblazer]

I don't think anyone will ever agree, so I'm just glad the gym I work out at doesn't have swiss balls. I also don't have knee wraps or a belt and did you mean while doing cable pull downs? I would have to unbolt the bike from the floor and some how get it in a tiny room lol.

Now yer talking.

Don't let stooopit gym rule or equipment get in yer way. You pay your dues, you should be able to work out your way!

Power to the people!

Rise up and tell them you ain't gonna take it anymore!

B-

 

[trauck1506]

Lol! I don't pay for a gym membership actually, I work out on an army base in NY city so I can't say crap. They already don't seem to like me working out in there, but my step dad is the chaplin assistant so I get by with it.

 

[lockdownd7]

lockdownd7 - I don't really understand what you are saying because because power = strength x speed. I could agree that they don't really add muscle mass, but if you are already big or want to stay in a weight class they will definitely help. I also don't see how anyone could disagree that they don't help you coming out of the bottom on deads.

It's ok. Maybe you'll understand some day.

Setting aside the fact that the clean is a specific movement with different muscular recruitment and firing patterns than the squat/deadlift, I've got to reiterate that cleans will not improve strength! Your own bastardized simplification/misapplication of the power equation recognizes that strength is a component of power! Not the other way around!

Do cleans increase power? In the clean movement, yes. But this has less to do with improvements in strength or speed as it does with profiency of the movement. In other words....like anything else, the best way to demonstrate power in an activity is to do that specific activity. That's why your clean increases when you do cleans. Is there transferrance to other movements? Yes, obviously. But is that in the form of increased strength? NO!

Earlier you mentioned olympic lifters, insinuating that their strength is due to their impressive clean poundages. Friend, this is completely bass-ackwards! It is their strength that enables them to clean as much as they do, not the other way around.

 

[SaiBoT]

It's ok. Maybe you'll understand some day.

Setting aside the fact that the clean is a specific movement with different muscular recruitment and firing patterns than the squat/deadlift, I've got to reiterate that cleans will not improve strength! Your own bastardized simplification/misapplication of the power equation recognizes that strength is a component of power! Not the other way around!

Do cleans increase power? In the clean movement, yes. But this has less to do with improvements in strength or speed as it does with profiency of the movement. In other words....like anything else, the best way to demonstrate power in an activity is to do that specific activity. That's why your clean increases when you do cleans. Is there transferrance to other movements? Yes, obviously. But is that in the form of increased strength? NO!

Earlier you mentioned olympic lifters, insinuating that their strength is due to their impressive clean poundages. Friend, this is completely bass-ackwards! It is their strength that enables them to clean as much as they do, not the other way around.

What exactly it's power then? And the best way to demonstrate power in an activity is by doing that specific activity... of course it is... how the hell would I know if you have power if you aren't DEMONSTRATING it, maybe you wanted to say INCREASING or another word...

On short term the tranferrance from cleans to other movements it will surely be newly aquired neurological efficiency, but on long term I must say that cleans will have a carry over effect in the form of strength as well, that's why some powerlifting programs have it.

About the oly lifters, it's not only their strength that allows them to lift the way they do, you know that speed and acceleration are part of the equation too.

 

[Big_BK]

Muscle clean and press for me. Basically the olympic lift without the perfect form and just brute strength, no racking the bar on your chest after the clean and little to no leg drive on the press.

 

[lockdownd7]

What exactly it's power then? And the best way to demonstrate power in an activity is by doing that specific activity... of course it is... how the hell would I know if you have power if you aren't DEMONSTRATING it, maybe you wanted to say INCREASING or another word...

Congrats...you found a typo. Consider me impressed by your amazing proofreading skills.

On short term the tranferrance from cleans to other movements it will surely be newly aquired neurological efficiency, but on long term I must say that cleans will have a carry over effect in the form of strength as well, that's why some powerlifting programs have it.

Answer me this: if cleans increase strength, then all you'd ever have to do to increase strength was cleans. According to your perspective, that should work. If strength is a function of speed, then you should be able to simply use speed work to continually increase your strength. Umm...no.

About the oly lifters, it's not only their strength that allows them to lift the way they do, you know that speed and acceleration are part of the equation too.

Of course. But what you're missing is that you can't accelerate with a load you don't have the strength to lift.

---------

Strength is the ability of the muscle to generate tension. That's it. Cleans will help you develop tension more rapidly, but they will not help you develop more total tension. That is the clear distinction. If you can't understand that strength, as a component of power, is not reliant on power, well I just don't what to tell you! It's like saying that ham is made up of a ham and cheese sandwich!

 

[trauck1506]

Here is one website that proves my point:
Box Squat vs. Power Clean Debate Part I: A Strength Training and Powerlifting article from Dragon Door Publications

I'll find more later because I have read many WSB articles on this and if I remember correctly they agreed with what I'm saying. However I do agree that it is not the best, but it definitely builds strength and I don't see how you could say it doesn't. If it doesn't my whole body is sore for no reason then. Are you saying you don't agree that WSB's D.E. day carries over to other movements?

 

[SaiBoT]

Congrats...you found a typo. Consider me impressed by your amazing proofreading skills.

I didn't find a typo, basically with that sentence you said nothing, that's why I called you out.

Answer me this: if cleans increase strength, then all you'd ever have to do to increase strength was cleans. According to your perspective, that should work. If strength is a function of speed, then you should be able to simply use speed work to continually increase your strength. Umm...no.

By all means don't think I'm saying that cleans are the holy grail of weightlifting. I defend them as part of a strength program.

Of course. But what you're missing is that you can't accelerate with a load you don't have the strength to lift.

Lol this sentence has flaws... yes I can push presses, power cleans, snatches... I can use a bigger weight through inercia, momentum, after that it's all acceleration with a weight I couldn't normally lift and it's what oly lifters do they learn to accelerate a weight they can't "muscle" up, sure they work they strength as part of the whole process.

---------

Strength is the ability of the muscle to generate tension. That's it. Cleans will help you develop tension more rapidly, but they will not help you develop more total tension. That is the clear distinction. If you can't understand that strength, as a component of power, is not reliant on power, well I just don't what to tell you! It's like saying that ham is made up of a ham and cheese sandwich!

No sir, strength it's the ability to generate as much force as possible with no concern for the factor of time, it's not all about the muscle( there's the tendons and bones abilities too... you know stuff like that)

Power= work divided by time.

And like I said... cleans have helped powerlifters, olympic lifters, strongmen etc, all of them are wrong now and should just throw away the cleans...

Talking about ham MEATHEAD!!!

 

[lockdownd7]

I didn't find a typo, basically with that sentence you said nothing, that's why I called you out.

The typo was that I said "demonstrate" instead of "increase". You'll have to make that change yourself when you print the hard copy to study later...I can't be bothered to go back and change it.

By all means don't think I'm saying that cleans are the holy grail of weightlifting. I defend them as part of a strength program.

Now we get to the crux of the issue. I was not addressing the usefulness of cleans, I was addressing your bastardization of terminology and lack of comprehension of the formulas you keep espousing.

Lol this sentence has flaws... yes I can push presses, power cleans, snatches... I can use a bigger weight through inercia, momentum, after that it's all acceleration with a weight I couldn't normally lift and it's what oly lifters do they learn to accelerate a weight they can't "muscle" up, sure they work they strength as part of the whole process.

What are you talking about? Your examples hold no relevance to the point I was making and show a lack of reading comprehension. Find your max on whatever lift. Now put 110% that 1RM on the bar. Accelerate that load. Have fun, go to town.

No sir, strength it's the ability to generate as much force as possible with no concern for the factor of time, it's not all about the muscle( there's the tendons and bones abilities too... you know stuff like that)

Again, what the hell are you talking about? If we're referring to the strength of a muscle, IT IS all about the muscle!

Power= work divided by time.

And like I said... cleans have helped powerlifters, olympic lifters, strongmen etc, all of them are wrong now and should just throw away the cleans...

Talking about ham MEATHEAD!!!

Congrats on regurgitating the basic power formula. Now if only we could work on that comprehension

And again, as for the usefulness of cleans, I'm not even addressing that. They have their purpose. That purpose is not to increase strength.

Here is one website that proves my point:
Box Squat vs. Power Clean Debate Part I: A Strength Training and Powerlifting article from Dragon Door Publications

I'll find more later because I have read many WSB articles on this and if I remember correctly they agreed with what I'm saying. However I do agree that it is not the best, but it definitely builds strength and I don't see how you could say it doesn't. If it doesn't my whole body is sore for no reason then. Are you saying you don't agree that WSB's D.E. day carries over to other movements?

I've read that article. It's a nice article indeed. But, again, it doesn't hold relevance to the discussion at hand. I'm not debating or disagreeing with anything other than the lack of understanding in this thread. Since basic logic does not seem to be sufficient, let me offer an extended explanation:

Let's say a muscle is capable of exerting x amount of tension, irrespective of time. That's the absolute strength of the muscle. The problem is that often times, that "irrespective of time" qualification is pretty important, because in any given movement, there are time restrictions. So if we increase the speed at which that tension can be generated, through cleans or whatever, that tension becomes more applicable to faster activities, i.e. activities that have less time available in which to produce tension. That's why poundages increase through DE....it's not that you're generating more tension, it's that you're generating tension quicker.