The damned lies you've been fed about half-lifes!

[Skepticore]

I've been thinking a lot lately about half lives of testosterone esters and the rate at which a body metabolizes them. And I've seen the "roid calculator" that computes the amount of test ester remaining in a body at any time after an injection.

But isn't the amount of ester remaining much less relevent than the amount of de-esterified test a body is CONSUMING? Is it not the amount that your body has CONVERTED and used that counts?

With this in mind, I created a spreadsheet that calculates test in the body in a new way. It still uses the concept of half lives, but instead of focusing on ester remaining, the emphasis is on test CONSUMED.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. The following is based on weekly injects of 250mg Sustanon for 12 weeks. The first pic shows a graph of the daily consumption of the de-esterified test blend. The components of the sust were entered as four separate compounds (prop, isocaproate, phenyprop, and decanoate).

Of interest is the fact that even though sust has the reputation of keeping blood level variations to a minimum, there is clearly a large amount of variation present in the amount of DE-ESTERIFIED test that is consumed on a daily basis. Notice also the fact that maximum consumption doesn't occur until about 8 weeks into the cycle!

More to follow...

 

[Skepticore]

graph...

Hopefully it will attach this time...

 

[Skepticore]

Part II

So now let's look at this on a weekly basis. The daily variation is now hidden, but the time lag of consumption is readily seen.

 

[Skepticore]

Thinking ahead...

Thinking beyond this, it also becomes clear in examining these graphs that the variation test absorption over short periods of time is important. Take a look back at the daily graph at week five for example. We see that the amount of test consumed varies by a whopping 18 mg throughout that week, starting at 42mg on the first day and dropping to 24mg by the end. That's a very large spread. That's a variation of about 56% of the avarage dosage for that week!

So as you can see, taking sustanon may keep your ESTER concentration level, but it certainly won't keep a steady supply of free testosterone to your system.

Here's a graph of the spread of dosages throughout the weeks. This graph calculates the spread as the highest dose for a given week minus the lowest dose for that same week...

 

[Skepticore]

In conclusion...

So finally, we can graph the spread as a percentage of the average daily dose. Here's how it's calculated:

(highest dose for the week - lowest dose for the week)/average dose for the week * 100%.

Holy cow! We see a huge variation in dosages throughout the week.

 

[Skepticore]

So what about front loading?

All right, let's front load and see what the heck happens. What if we frontload three amps? I'll only show the weekly graph...

(Anyone remember that post I made a long time ago about getting impatient and shooting three amps of sust? Well, I guess maybe I wasn't ENTIRELY truthfull. Hey, sorry, but I really needed the info you guys gave me! )

 

[Skepticore]

This will probably get me banned but...

...I'll make the case that even sust would be better to inject TWICE weekly. (I'd like to take this opportunity to thank my sponsor, www.getpinz.com j/k )

Here's the daily graph...

 

[Skepticore]

Last graph, I promise!

So now look how we've reduced the spread percentage by injecting twice weekly! The body will handle these fluctuations better.

So now, before you start flaming me, saying that it doesn't matter how test levels fluctuate because you're going to be shut down regardless, let me ask: then why in the hell not inject once every two weeks then? Because, the less variation in free test consumption, the better off our bodies are.

BTW, if anyone's interested in this spreadsheet, I'd post if someone will tell me how.

 

[Frackal]

Interesting shit! Bump

 

[Juice Authority]

Excellent info. The Mods should make this a sticky.

 

[Koivu_11]

great post!

 

[elite hot topic]

nice work. It is posts like these that keeps me intrested in EF!!!

 

[hooked]

Informative, and interesting. Thanks for the hard work you put into making the charts. So front loading and consistent injections do work! I love it when science backs up theory and trial.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nice job Scepticore.

The accepted half life theory never completely satisfied me. What showed on paper never seemes to pan out in reality. My one criticism, or maybe curiousity is the better word, is why you used Sustanon. The prop in sus will cause a rapid hgh level of T -- far greater than cyp or enhanthate and the Isocaproate will keep BL's elevated longer. I think it would be interesting to do this testing with a single test with a supposed half life of 10-14 days. I believe it would show that multiple dosing, even with supposed "long acting " esters provides a more even BL of test.

This is why I recommend several smaller shots for HRT and why long acting compounds such as Primo still work well in a short cycle.

 

[Skepticore]

Test cyp for example...

Hey guys, thanks for the positive feedback. I picked Sustanon because it gets press for keeping blood levels more consistent. I agree with you that longer acting esters are the way to go. Here are a few graphs (I know I said that was the last graph, but...) to show how test cyp looks run 250 mg per week with a 750 mg frontload on the first week. I picked that quantity for a frontload just to make the daily consumption be approximately level from the get-go.

BTW One concern I've had from the beginning is the fact that test ester injected into your butt doesn't begin conversion immediately. I know it has to disperse it's way into muscle and fat and at some point bump into some kind of de-esterase enzyme.

So my concern boils down to this - how much error is introduced by assuming a perfect half-life equation from the moment of injection when in actuality the ester has a real dispersion time?

Well hell, I'm starting to ramble like an drunkard (I don't drink often). Here are the graphs of front loaded cyp...

 

[Skepticore]

Test cyp weekly with frontload...

Here's the weekly...

 

[Skepticore]

And the spread...

Nelson, here's where it gets interesting. Notice how much lower the dosage spread is for cyp than for sust. (everyone hang in there, I'm almost graphed out... )

 

[Skepticore]

Now here's what blows me away...

Here's the spread percentage for test cyp. About 37%!!! Compare that to Sustanon! So, test cyp delivers free test to a body more consistently than Sustanon.

(Everyone keep in mind we're working with theoretical data, not empirical.)

The other thing I should explain is that spread percentage the first week. Why is it so high? Well, because on week 1 you start out not taking any test. Then, you take a big shot. Recall the equation:

(high consumption - low consumption)/ave consumption *100%

If low consumption = 0 then the spread percentage is going to be high. This is just a glorified way of saying that you're starting a cycle and you're test consumption starts!

 

[Ulter]

Does that mean I can shoot 300mg of cyp every 4 days and live happily ever after? God I hope so because that's what I am going to do anyway.

 

[pittbull7]

bump

 

[Nelson Montana]

It's all about dosing. From personal evidence, a single shot of sus, (with no follow up) does seem to provide a more even T level, empirically, than a single 250 mgs shot of cyp. The sus can be felt immediately -- naturally, since the prop is so fast acting. Blood levels of T will be significantly elevated within minutes. And the effects will last longer, but I've always questioned that "active for up to 4 weeks" claim. No way is sus active after 4 weeks -- not to any noticable degree, that is. And that's where the "half-life" theory falls flat (as Sceps's charts are illustrating). It may be technically present, but it can't raise T levels enough to make a difference, anabolically, at least.

For simplicity sake, lets say cyp and enanthate are the same thing, cause basically, they are.

A single shot of 250 mgs cyp will hit within 24 hours. (and again, dispertion varies, as Scep mentioned) This is also when elevated e is most pronounced. (but that's another story). But I've found cyp to crash hard after 8-9 days. (Another cause for e elevation).

So which one provides a more even distribution? Depends on the dosing. Sus is a bit more idiot proof. But small multiple dosings of long acting esters is the way to go. As mentioned earlier, that's the basis of my short cycle program but a lot of people don't understand the concept of multiple doses of long acting esters. Hope this clears it up.

ulter: 300 mgs every 4 days? That's a lot. But this is new territory. You just might live happily ever after. In regard to HRT, I find that much T suppresses my libido. You have to realize, that dosage would put your T level at about a constant 2000 ngs -- far more than any human was meant to have!

Bottom line: get your PSA checked twice a year. If anything gets you...that'll be it.

 

[Zyglamail]

Excellent info. The Mods should make this a sticky.

The theory, equations, graphs, principles etc were all posted a year ago and DID take into account everythink stated here. I cant speak for the roid calc, never used it myself, I did my own math.

 

[Skepticore]

The theory, equations, graphs, principles etc were all posted a year ago and DID take into account everythink stated here. I cant speak for the roid calc, never used it myself, I did my own math.

What's the name of the thread? I'd like to see these graphs you mention, because the equations and graphs in this post are my own, and I've never posted them before. The theory is as old as the concept of half-lives itself, which is very old indeed.

 

[genarr4]

Thanks alot Skepticore we appreciate the effort.

 

[muscleup]

cool... thanks bro

 

[IlliniBB]

so are you saying its better to inject sust twice a week rather than once?

 

[Juice Authority]

The theory, equations, graphs, principles etc were all posted a year ago and DID take into account everythink stated here. I cant speak for the roid calc, never used it myself, I did my own math.

I've seen certain ester reports floating around but nothing laid out with charts and graphs as Skepticore has done. Give the guy some credit (if it is in fact his own work). If not, well, I found the info useful anyway.

 

[Skepticore]

Yes, actually it would be better to inject sustanon twice weekly. The more frequent the better, at least from the perspective of maintaining consistent blood levels. Of course, you have to balance that against the downside of frequent injects such as scarring.

These graphs are indeed mine. If anyone's interested in the spreadsheet for your own cycle, I'll clean it up and email it to you if you request it. I have it set up so that you can enter up to 5 compounds, and after you enter the appropriate half life (the list of which is NOT mine, I found it on the boards) you then simply type in the doses you take. All the graphs are already on separate sheets; you just click on them to see them. It's in Excel 2000 format.

 

[psychedout]

Very interesting post. Karam too you.

 

[solidspine]

Skepticore

In my opinion your chart would recommend an increase in the Sustanon 250 from 250 to 500mg and 4 shots per week, resulting in starting pint at 84mg on the first day and dropping to 48mg by the end and maintaining a greater amount of test and a steady supply of free testosterone in your system.

 

[Skepticore]

Skepticore

In my opinion your chart would recommend an increase in the Sustanon 250 from 250 to 500mg and 4 shots per week, resulting in starting pint at 84mg on the first day and dropping to 48mg by the end and maintaining a greater amount of test and a steady supply of free testosterone in your system.

Hmm, not sure I see where you're headed with that, SS. 500mg of sus shot four times per week would be 2 grams per week - that's a lot of sust! I wouldn't recommend that to anyone (I don't recommend any AS, they're bad, mmmkay? ).

I'm suggesting that a given dose, broken into smaller portions taken more frequently, is better.

Of course as Zyg pointed out it's common knowledge that more frequent injects are better. But at some point you've got to say enough's enough. All right getpinz, where's my kickback?

 

[Wrongun]

Good info thank you

Wrongun!

 

[Zyglamail]

I've seen certain ester reports floating around but nothing laid out with charts and graphs as Skepticore has done. Give the guy some credit (if it is in fact his own work). If not, well, I found the info useful anyway.

Im not saying skepticore copied anyone, just staing this has all been covered annauseum. All of the stuff skepticore questioned in this thread comes from those who have only half an idea of whats going on.

Here is the link Andy13 posted Sept 12, 2001. It was moved to "best of EF" so its plat members only.

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54385

 

[ironmaster]

Just to be sure, I've always broke up my doses so as to inject EOD or ED. Since I'm never "off", frontloading isn't an issue, but it certainly does appear to be the way to go.

 

[Skepticore]

Im not saying skepticore copied anyone, just staing this has all been covered annauseum. All of the stuff skepticore questioned in this thread comes from those who have only half an idea of whats going on.

Here is the link Andy13 posted Sept 12, 2001. It was moved to "best of EF" so its plat members only.

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54385

Well I'll be shit. Guess great minds think alike.

My offer still stands to anyone who wants a copy of this spreadsheet to experiment around for themselves. I didn't bring up endloading (using short esters at the end of a cycle) as Zyg did in his thread, but you can play around with the idea and see the benefits.

 

[papucho]

Great post.

 

[browndog1]

Does that mean I can shoot 300mg of cyp every 4 days and live happily ever after? God I hope so because that's what I am going to do anyway.

lmao!

...bd

 

[crmdogg]

great info bro

 

[Texas Ranger]

This is WONDERFUL info!!! Thanks for taking the time in putting together!!!