Test Enanthate With Anti-Estrogens- Are They Really Needed???

[Texas Ranger]

Guys, I need some advice for a good friend of mine. He's 24 years old, 6'0" 220lbs and 9-10%bf. He's looking to do his First Cycle and his main goals are to build size and strength. I told him to keep it simple and run Test Enanthate@500mgs for 10 weeks. He visited another board, which I won't name, and some Vets told him not to run ANY anti-estrogens or anti-aromatase(ie.Arimidex) throughout the cycle because they will "hurt" his gains. I told him it would be a good idea to use a low dose of Arimidex(.25mgs-.5mgs EOD)to keep the water retention to a minimum and gyno away, but right now he's leaning against it. I'm trying to save him from the dreaded moonface. What do you think? Should he or shouldn't he use it???

 

[Diabolical]

Bro, I have done both..and personally it doesnt hinder my MUSCLE gains at all.(just water gains)

It keeps the water away, making me appear less bloated (smaller) and if it isnt used...he might get upset when he drops 5 lbs....but most of it will be water.

Tell him to use A-dex so he knows what is muscle and what is bloat, and he wont get any surprises post cycle.

Just my $0.02,
-Dr. D

BTW, what board is it(it is okay to say).....I know a few off-hand that give bad advice myself.

 

[doubles1]

diab who gives bad advice just so others shouldnt listen to everything they read on those boards...please let us kno...
thanks
danks

 

[Triple J]

estrogen levels and sides vary from person to person so he will need to learn how susceptable he is, at first it makes more sense to be on the safe side rather than not to run anything. once he gets into his cycle maybe he can slide the dose back a little. I hate any bloat feeling and I get gyno symptoms easy so my answer is play it safe. also it will help keep bp in line

 

[Diabolical]

diab who gives bad advice just so others shouldnt listen to everything they read on those boards...please let us kno...
thanks
danks

Hey, that rhymes..lol

Anyway, even though I have a high post count for being here for such a short time (well not really, I just changed my name)
it is usually the guys who have been around a board for about 1 month and already have 1,000 posts that worry me the most, but some good knowledgable bros just like to post-whore.

I know a few names from other boards and this one aswell....but lets just leave it at that.

Because if one person gives bad advice, 10 others will put him in his place, so no need to worry about getting bad advice.

Dont listen to the first reply you get to a post...wait a day or two and get everyones opinion then make your OWN decision.

-Dr. D

 

[duff_rose]

Guys, I need some advice for a good friend of mine. He's 24 years old, 6'0" 220lbs and 9-10%bf. He's looking to do his First Cycle and his main goals are to build size and strength. I told him to keep it simple and run Test Enanthate@500mgs for 10 weeks. He visited another board, which I won't name, and some Vets told him not to run ANY anti-estrogens or anti-aromatase(ie.Arimidex) throughout the cycle because they will "hurt" his gains. I told him it would be a good idea to use a low dose of Arimidex(.25mgs-.5mgs EOD)to keep the water retention to a minimum and gyno away, but right now he's leaning against it. I'm trying to save him from the dreaded moonface. What do you think? Should he or shouldn't he use it???

No it's not needed. Since it's his first cycle I would recommend having nolvadex on hand incase sympoms pop up. After a few cycles he will know what to take, wheather it be nolva, a-dex, or femera.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Up for a few more opinions...

 

[Zoomster]

Re: Re: Test Enanthate With Anti-Estrogens- Are They Really Needed???

No it's not needed. Since it's his first cycle I would recommend having nolvadex on hand incase sympoms pop up. After a few cycles he will know what to take, wheather it be nolva, a-dex, or femera.

I agree with this. Have nolvadex on hand, if you feel symptoms, take a tab, see what happens. I am currently on enthanate and I have monor symptoms maybe once every two weeks, I can take one Nolvadex and they go away.

 

[bbkingpin]

estrogen levels and sides vary from person to person so he will need to learn how susceptable he is, at first it makes more sense to be on the safe side rather than not to run anything. once he gets into his cycle maybe he can slide the dose back a little. I hate any bloat feeling and I get gyno symptoms easy so my answer is play it safe. also it will help keep bp in line

I agree that it is better to be safe than sorry. Have an anti-E on hand at least.

 

[kbrkbr]

It's odd, but ten years ago, when the only anti-e available was nolvadex, I used to blow up like a friggin water balloon whenever I used test.

Now, I keep nolvadex on hand just in case, but rarely experience water bloat at all during my cycles.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Here's a radical thought...

How about he does a lower dose? Or adds a non aromatizing steroid? Or stays on less time?

Nah, too simple. Better take more drugs.

 

[bbkingpin]

Let's take it one step further and say: don't take steroids at all. Stick to gut-busting workouts and lots of low-fat protein. You'll never look very muscular but, hey, that's not what you really want anyway, is it??? BTW, you just contradicted yourself by saying rather than take MORE drugs you could ADD a non-aromatizing steroid. You are so eager to lash out that you don't even think about the logic of what you are saying. Guess there really was a good reason for your tumultuous departure. You've made me a believer.

Here's a radical thought...

How about he does a lower dose? Or adds a non aromatizing steroid? Or stays on less time?

Nah, too simple. Better take more drugs.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Let's take it one step further and say: don't take steroids at all. Stick to gut-busting workouts and lots of low-fat protein. You'll never look very muscular but, hey, that's not what you really want anyway, is it??? BTW, you just contradicted yourself by saying rather than take MORE drugs you could ADD a non-aromatizing steroid. You are so eager to lash out that you don't even think about the logic of what you are saying. Guess there really was a good reason for your tumultuous departure. You've made me a believer.

............................


Wow, that is really stupid.

I must be on the right track when my criticisms get this lame.

 

[bbkingpin]

............................


Wow, that is really stupid.

I must be on the right track when my criticisms get this lame.

There is a consensus on this thread and you're not part of it. You are rarely on the right track, but always on your own track.

So tell me why "that is really stupid." Or just leave it at that and think you had the last word. Either way, I DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHAT YOU THINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Texas Ranger]

Ok guys, stay focused. Don't get side tracked with trying to jump on Nelson. Isn't it a BETTER idea to use an anti-estrogen in conjunction with the Test, instead of the wait and see then use approach?

 

[bmit]

If you value the appearance of your face at all take arimidex, even with nolva I get moon face. Never know how prone you are to gyno. Girls will run. It really doesnt' hinder gains, it hinders estrogen and water weight. If water weight is "gains" then yea it hinders gains. Anti-e also seems to combat acne. If your friend just wants to get big and doesn't care about lookin good, then fuck anti e

 

[bigp3]

Ask my bitch titty if he should run an anti E,,,, just depends on the person,,, I get gyno nattie sometimes,,, I would say better safe then sorry

 

[Nelson Montana]

BBKingpin: That's an awful lot of exclamation points for someone who doesn't care what I think.

But since you asked...

For one thing, the "concensus" you speak of is about 6 people out of thousands. And I think half of them arent really as stupid as they come off, they just like breaking balls. Maybe you're one of them.


But back to the original point...

Adding a non aromatizing steroid in with a lower dosage of test would make sense if e is a concern. What part of that are you having trouble comprehending?

Extropolating my statements into a scenario of the absurd does not a good analogy make.

And yes, maybe he should work a little harder. Whassa matta ? Are those big bad barbells too heavy-wevy for lil' baby? Who has time for eating extra protein when an injection takes but a few seconds? And you call yourself a bodybuilder?

A beginner can make great gains with a single shot of sus a week for 4 weeks and he wouldn't need an anti-e. If you and your "consensus" don't know that, or haven't got the guts to train the way you're supposed to, then you shouldn't be giving advice. And you sure as shit shouldn't be knocking mine.

 

[Racer-X99]

Bro, I have done both..and personally it doesnt hinder my MUSCLE gains at all.(just water gains)

It keeps the water away, making me appear less bloated (smaller) and if it isnt used...he might get upset when he drops 5 lbs....but most of it will be water.

I second this. I have done cycles with and without anti-e's. For me and from my experience the anti-e's don't impact gains at all. I take a nolva 10mg m-w-f and it keeps the bloat off and even cuts me. I will never again do a test cycle without them even at 500mg/week.

You may drop weight initially like diab said, but muscle will replace the water over time. The nolva kicks water out of you like a diueretic. Not many women I know like a guy who looks like a bloated cow so why do it to yourself.

 

[bbkingpin]

BBKingpin: That's an awful lot of exclamation points for someone who doesn't care what I think.

But since you asked...

For one thing, the "concensus" you speak of is about 6 people out of thousands. And I think half of them arent really as stupid as they come off, they just like breaking balls. Maybe you're one of them.

THERE ARE MORE THAN 6 ON THIS THREAD ALONE. YOU ARE ALONE ON THIS ONE. WHERE ARE THE THOUSANDS YOU ARE REFERRING TO?


But back to the original point...

Adding a non aromatizing steroid in with a lower dosage of test would make sense if e is a concern. What part of that are you having trouble comprehending?

Extropolating my statements into a scenario of the absurd does not a good analogy make.

And yes, maybe he should work a little harder. Whassa matta ? Are those big bad barbells too heavy-wevy for lil' baby? Who has time for eating extra protein when an injection takes but a few seconds? And you call yourself a bodybuilder?

THE POINT WAS THAT NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU TRAIN AND EAT THE BODY'S SYSTEM OF HOMEOSTASIS IS NEVER GOING TO GET YOU WHERE YOU WANT TO BE WITHOUT THE USE OF STEROIDS. TAKE A LOOK AT ALL OF THE IMPRESSIVE NATURAL BODYBUILDERS. NOT TOO IMPRESSIVE!

A beginner can make great gains with a single shot of sus a week for 4 weeks and he wouldn't need an anti-e. If you and your "consensus" don't know that, or haven't got the guts to train the way you're supposed to, then you shouldn't be giving advice. And you sure as shit shouldn't be knocking mine.

HE MAY OR MAY NOT NEED AN ANTI-E. ONLY TIME WILL TELL. BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY.

 

[bigAragorn]

Here's a radical thought...

How about he does a lower dose? Or adds a non aromatizing steroid? Or stays on less time?

Nah, too simple. Better take more drugs.

I agree with your ideas but i think what has irked BBkingpin and probably a few others including myself is the way you go about the advice. I mean it screams sarcasm and that is not the way to go about helping someone.

Also to be honest your advice isnt all that helpful anyways. You dont need to belittle someone with sarcasm. Where if at all did Texas Ranger mention that for his friend, cycling was not an option? No where. If he were to take more drugs would mean more than the one he already is intending (enanthate not including the possibility of an anti e). Due to your sarcasm we can only assume you suggest taking less ( "Nah, too simple. Better take more drugs." ) which in his case would be no drugs as he is only using ONE.
I mean 500mgs of test over 10 weeks IS VERY moderate and appropriate for a first cycle if you ask me (i did 375 mgs of test over 10 weeks my first cycle and gained about 25 pounds). And stay on less time............what like 6 weeks.......on enanthate......i would go so far as to say in your sarcasm you look like you dont have a clue what youre talking about.

Maybe you should re evaluate why you came back to this board in the first place, cause if its to help people you're doing a piss poor job.

 

[CanadianBro]

Some people have different priorities, I guess. I'd much rather gain 5 lbs less than have a pair of boobs a woman would envy. That's a no-brainer choice if there ever was one.

Very good point.

You CANNOT have both.

If you take an anti-e, you WILL sacrifice some LEAN MUSCLE
gains. Yes, you will hold less water however you will also sacrifice
muscle.

If you don't take an anti-e, you will gain more lean muscle mass
however there is the possibilty of unnecessary side effects.

I personally would take the Enanthate without an anti-e simply
because at that amount, the possibilty of water bloat and gyno
is very minimal. That being said, if side effects begin to show and
he is unhappy with results, he can always add an anti-e during
the cycle.

 

[OAKBOX]

I agree with your ideas but i think what has irked BBkingpin and probably a few others including myself is the way you go about the advice. I mean it screams sarcasm and that is not the way to go about helping someone.

Also to be honest your advice isnt all that helpful anyways. You dont need to belittle someone with sarcasm... i would go so far as to say in your sarcasm you look like you dont have a clue what youre talking about.

Maybe you should re evaluate why you came back to this board in the first place...

I agree. Your sarcasm is too strong.

IMO, it's better to be safe, then sorry- go with an anti-e. Remeber, slow and steady wins the race...

 

[Texas Ranger]

500mgs of Test Enanthate is a highly effective but, moderate dose. So, I told him to run Nolvadex@10mgs ED throughout to protect him from Gyno and keep the water retention down. It's not Arimidex, but it's still pretty darn effective and will get the job done. And above all, it's CHEAP!!! He'll appreciate that. The cheap bastard!!!!

 

[bigAragorn]

500mgs of Test Enanthate is a highly effective but, moderate dose. So, I told him to run Nolvadex@10mgs ED throughout to protect him from Gyno and keep the water retention down. It's not Arimidex, but it's still pretty darn effective and will get the job done. And above all, it's CHEAP!!! He'll appreciate that. The cheap bastard!!!!

First off whats up bro



youre doing a good job helping your friend out. He'll love test only as a first go and it is at a very effective dose for a first cycle. Cant be too careful....run the anti-e.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Hey, what's up, Big Aragorn!! I haven't heard from you in a while. Yeah, I'm trying to lookout for one of my buddies. I remember the way you and Big Andy took me under your wing a while back and schooled me about Gear. If not, I would of bought into the 500mgs of Test/400mgs of Deca/30-35mgs of Dbol First Cycles that's STILL being recommended. It's really a shame!! Thanks for for EVERYTHING, brother!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[bbkingpin]

Here is a pictorial of Nelson's client list:

http://www.anabolex.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79921

 

[DTOX]

1. He's only taking 500mg/wk. Most of the medical abstracts posted regarding test usage have been 600mg/wk with zero mention of gyno side effects. Also, from the personal experiences of myself and others I don't see how 500mg/wk of Test *by itself* is going to cause gyno.

2. The dude is only 9%-10% bf! IMO that's farily lean and that lack of bodyfat is going to make it that much more unlikely that he's at risk of gyno.

3. Sounds like way too many people here haven't a clue regarding the relationship between estrogen & GH & IGF-1.

The bottom line is that if he wants to take anti-estrogens with only 500mg/wk of Test to give him "peace of mind" then by all means go for it, but realize he'sgoing to be limiting his gains somewhat.

 

[bbkingpin]

The bottom line is that if he wants to take anti-estrogens with only 500mg/wk of Test to give him "peace of mind" then by all means go for it, but realize he'sgoing to be limiting his gains somewhat.

That pretty much sums up the thread -- either use it from the get-go or "have it on hand." But don't just rely on someone's blanket opinion that there is no way 500mg/week of testosterone will cause gyno. Some are very sensitive while others are not.

 

[stonecold54]

okay if you all think nelson is too sarcastic here I will say what he was saying without the sarcasm.

My first cycle was 6 amps of sust in one month, it went
1
2
2
1

I gained 20 pounds off that cycle and let me tell you I trained and ate like shit. but I only spent about 40 bucks for it. no anti e's used, while I did have them just in case (which is always smart). 500 is pretty high for a first cycle. so my advice would be use a lower dose and just have novaldex on hand just in case and then he will really see how he really reacts to test.

 

[bbkingpin]

okay if you all think nelson is too sarcastic here I will say what he was saying without the sarcasm.

Sarcasm is fine. Condescending and patronizing is not appreciated, however, by grown men. And just being contrary for the hell of it is stupid. Every reasonable mind would agree -- sure, go ahead and have Anti-Es in your possession before you begin your cycle of testosterone (which aromatizes to estrogen in the body) so that you have them available if you experience any estrogenic side-effects. But NO, Nelson knows better than the rest of us. We are stupid, uninformed, alarmists. Let Nelson dictate somewhere else.