Teamsters leaving AFL-CIO

[MattTheSkywalker]

Read all about it here:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050725/ap_on_bi_ge/labor_rift_49

Membership is down. Teamsters are critical of AFL-CIO focus on political agenda.

The end of an error? I mean era?

We'll see.

 

[gotmilk]

What will ever happen to working conditions if the Union's disappear?

You could sense this coming during the elections. Union members were arguing over which candidate to support.

I love how the unions are starting to argue with each other.

Up here in Maine, we have the Shipbuilders Union threatening to strike unless Bath Iron Works redoes their agreement. Ironically, Bath might lose all their ship contracts to Ingalls Shipyard after 2008.
So these clowns will be out of a job anyhow.

 

[Gambino]

lol i fail to see how it was such an error, union membership...higher wages, benefits, pension plan, fair treatment...you act as if these big corporations really give a fuck about their employees...matt their is more to it than your side, trying seeing the issue from the blue collar side.

 

[Code]

Unions have done nothing useful to the worker since the 1950's, in fact unions have only crippled the industries that they exist within:

Hockey
US steel
Car production
etc
etc
etc

 

[Gambino]

Unions have done nothing useful to the worker since the 1950's, in fact unions have only crippled the industries that they exist within:

Hockey
US steel
Car production
etc
etc
etc

well you forgot the construction industry which is anything but crippled...their is a carpenters local in every state, construction trades have had unions or guilds since the 1300's...if you want a shitty construction job, please go non-union, you'll wish you hadn't

 

[Code]

Guilds were far different than what unions are.

Unions do two things nowadays: collect dues & allow a soapboax for whiners to collectively address their 'problems'...like working too hard.

well you forgot the construction industry which is anything but crippled...their is a carpenters local in every state, construction trades have had unions or guilds since the 1300's...if you want a shitty construction job, please go non-union, you'll wish you hadn't

 

[jackangel]

gambino, you're out of order.

 

[Gambino]

Guilds were far different than what unions are.

Unions do two things nowadays: collect dues & allow a soapboax for whiners to collectively address their 'problems'...like working too hard.

well please step onto a union construction site and tell me you see people slacking. You'll see proffessionals hard at work, with working patterns similiar to a colony of ants...your "Rivethead" stereotypes just don't work

 

[Code]

Discussing this with someone named Gambino is probably as moot as it gets.

Best of luck with your union dues, hope they get you guys longer lunch breaks some day.

 

[Gambino]

Discussing this with someone named Gambino is probably as moot as it gets.

Best of luck with your union dues, hope they get you guys longer lunch breaks some day.

well so much for a reasonable debate...you aren't trying to hear what I'm saying at all...not all locals are as sloppy as the UAW. Whatever proffession you are in, I can guarantee a union carpenter works just as hard, if not harder, then you do...

 

[Razorguns]

There's that line...

where unions can do all good -- and once they cross that line -- they start hurting the worker and doing bad. To the point workers wind up getting laid off or screwed over as a result.

Unions working with Employer = Good

Unions strongarming the Employer = Bad

Hell, look at the NHL fiasco. EVERYONE lost in the end, and players wound up getting WORSE contracts than they originally bargained for 2 years ago. Too funny.

 

[Code]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not slamming the workers or the industry.

I've just seen way too many people pay dues for unions and get nothing but strikes....which in the long run only hurts the individual worker.

I grew up in North East, a land where unions have a strong hold on every industry. Shit when I was 13 I was forced to join a union as a grocery store bag boy. So I know a little about unions.

But looking at them since the 1950's the only purpose they serve is to lock out the worker every few years trying to get a simple cost of living raise.

Believe it or not, all 50 states have labor laws that usual make unions superfluous.

well so much for a reasonable debate...you aren't trying to hear what I'm saying at all...not all locals are as sloppy as the UAW. Whatever proffession you are in, I can guarantee a union carpenter works just as hard, if not harder, then you do...

 

[Gambino]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not slamming the workers or the industry.

I've just seen way too many people pay dues for unions and get nothing but strikes....which in the long run only hurts the individual worker.

I grew up in North East, a land where unions have a strong hold on every industry. Shit when I was 13 I was forced to join a union as a grocery store bag boy. So I know a little about unions.

But looking at them since the 1950's the only purpose they serve is to lock out the worker every few years trying to get a simple cost of living raise.

Believe it or not, all 50 states have labor laws that usual make unions superfluous.

In michigan were i live the company i work for bids against scab companies...sometimes they win, sometimes they don't. The cost is always higher but the quality of work it top notch so often times peeps will pay more for union contractors cause the job will get done proffessionally and timely. It makes me happy to see my company suscessfully beat out scab companies, orgainized labor can exist in a free market.
In 5 years I have never set foot on a picket line.
Every year i have got a decent wage increase.
Even after dues and other misc charges i still make a sheetload more than the scabs do...

 

[Code]

If you make more than most scabs, what compells someone to remain non-union?

A lot of union-friendly states require the state accept a certain amount of bids from union workers. I wonder if Michigan, being a major steel and auto industry state has union friendly policy.

In michigan were i live the company i work for bids against scab companies...sometimes they win, sometimes they don't. The cost is always higher but the quality of work it top notch so often times peeps will pay more for union contractors cause the job will get done proffessionally and timely. It makes me happy to see my company suscessfully beat out scab companies, orgainized labor can exist in a free market.
In 5 years I have never set foot on a picket line.
Every year i have got a decent wage increase.
Even after dues and other misc charges i still make a sheetload more than the scabs do...

 

[Gambino]

If you make more than most scabs, what compells someone to remain non-union?

A lot of union-friendly states require the state accept a certain amount of bids from union workers. I wonder if Michigan, being a major steel and auto industry state has union friendly policy.

Restrictions keep a lot of peeps from joining up...drug tests, USA ciztizenship, hs diploma, money taken out for pension, etc...these and other reasons keep peeps from joining up. I make at least $5 more an hour than a scab foreman would make...

The State has that requirment for all state jobs, including schools, bridges, etc...a certain amount of the bids must be union. but that does not guarantee the job. But for all private jobs, which is all I do, it is open to whoever...

 

[Code]

Quality aside, what compells the private business owner to hire union?

Restrictions keep a lot of peeps from joining up...drug tests, USA ciztizenship, hs diploma, money taken out for pension, etc...these and other reasons keep peeps from joining up. I make at least $5 more an hour than a scab foreman would make...

The State has that requirment for all state jobs, including schools, bridges, etc...a certain amount of the bids must be union. but that does not guarantee the job. But for all private jobs, which is all I do, it is open to whoever...

 

[Gambino]

Quality aside, what compells the private business owner to hire union?

Say you have a big commerical job coming up that will require 100 carpenters...where i live in rural michigan, local contractors have a hard time scraping together that many employees, esp ones that know what the fuck they are doing...whereas when you call a union contractor, he can call the hall and have 100 workers ready for work the next day.
Plus, a union carpenter is a notch above the rest in quality of character and safety...it is a rough business, with some real losers, so they are partially weeded out through union membership.

 

[Gambino]

furthermore code, I'm just a pe-on hammer swinger trying to get paid in this world. You proly know more about the politics of uninonization than I do...

 

[Code]

furthermore code, I'm just a pe-on hammer swinger trying to get paid in this world. You proly know more about the politics of uninonization than I do...

I haven't done much research into unions, the little I have read about them suggests unions are one of the reasons the auto industry went outside the US for production.

I think if unions can survive in a free market, then more power to 'em. But that for the most part they seem superfluous.

 

[Mr. dB]

AFL/CIO probably wasn't corrupt enough for the Teamsters.

 

[Gambino]

I haven't done much research into unions, the little I have read about them suggests unions are one of the reasons the auto industry went outside the US for production.

I think if unions can survive in a free market, then more power to 'em. But that for the most part they seem superfluous.

the whole point i'm trying to make, is that not all orgainized labor should be lumped together with the auto industry and the UAW...

 

[Lestat]

no unions at my company

 

[Gambino]

no unions at my company

are unions strong on the west coast? i wouldn't think so, with all the wonderful illegals to chose from

 

[Code]

I think it might even be wiser to take it one step further and say that for contract based work, unions are well-intentioned and even beneficial.

But that for industry supported unions it's hard, if not impossible for unions to exist. Free markets tend to go with cheaper labor even if it means lower quality.

the whole point i'm trying to make, is that not all orgainized labor should be lumped together with the auto industry and the UAW...

 

[gotmilk]

I don't think the NHLPA should be mentioned in the same breath as the steel workers or the auto unions.

NHL'ers are a bunch of pusses who have nothing to complain about. Great pay, ammenities, travel expenses, etc..

So fucking what if the NHL wants to cut your salary by 24%. What the hell is Tie Domi going to do without hockey?

Union officials realize they can collect huge salaries by attacking the very enterprises that pay their members. It's all about the loot (Kevin Garnett for Union Pres!).

 

[Razorguns]

The biggest Unions out here in the west coast are the dock workers. They're like their own little mafia. If they were disbanded, and replaced with illegals -- the cost savings would be mind-boggling.

Not only are they strong -- they even decide who gets hired! Talk about power!

 

[Gambino]

The biggest Unions out here in the west coast are the dock workers. They're like their own little mafia. If they were disbanded, and replaced with illegals -- the cost savings would be mind-boggling.

Not only are they strong -- they even decide who gets hired! Talk about power!

seems like the longshoremen's unions have always been corrupt and violent...you ain't got much choice in the matter if you are a shipper.

 

[Code]

Why do sports leagues need unions?

I don't think the NHLPA should be mentioned in the same breath as the steel workers or the auto unions.

NHL'ers are a bunch of pusses who have nothing to complain about. Great pay, ammenities, travel expenses, etc..

So fucking what if the NHL wants to cut your salary by 24%. What the hell is Tie Domi going to do without hockey?

Union officials realize they can collect huge salaries by attacking the very enterprises that pay their members. It's all about the loot (Kevin Garnett for Union Pres!).

 

[Zebo]

They just voted unanimously to withdraw from AFL-CIO.

CNN.com

 

[bran987]

we had union picketers at our job in Long Beach, CA for over a year. they would sit outside with signs and drink soda all day.

one day, they decided to jump behind one of our concrete trucks and pretend like we hit him.

the cops came and took him away and they stopped picketing I don't know if the cops threatened them or what.

 

[spongebob]

Guilds were far different than what unions are.

Unions do two things nowadays: collect dues & allow a soapboax for whiners to collectively address their 'problems'...like working too hard.

what union are you in?

 

[spongebob]

I grew up in North East, a land where unions have a strong hold on every industry. Shit when I was 13 I was forced to join a union as a grocery store bag boy. So I know a little about unions.



.

lol, scratch my question above.

 

[Code]

lol, scratch my question above.

LMAO, I don't even remember...Maybe the Bag Boy 106...
No clue, whatever union bag boys at grocery stores in Mystic Connecticut had to join in the early 80's.

 

[spongebob]

But that for industry supported unions it's hard, if not impossible for unions to exist. Free markets tend to go with cheaper labor even if it means lower quality.

well the unions can compete with the non-unions. it can be based on quality also. all union hands have completed 5yrs of classroom and ojt. most non union hands i see have completed 5yrs of probation.

 

[spongebob]

Why do sports leagues need unions?

to bargain

 

[Code]

to bargain

Then why do they have a need for agents?

 

[spongebob]

well the unions can compete with the non-unions. it can be based on quality also. all union hands have completed 5yrs of classroom and ojt. most non union hands i see have completed 5yrs of probation.

i need to be clear. most skilled trade unions. pipefitting, electrical, carpenter, etc. big difference in training, education an pridesmenship sometimes.

 

[spongebob]

Then why do they have a need for agents?

to represent them at the negotiating table against the more knowledgable owners who definitely bring big powered attorneys with lots of negotiating skills. it is a science.

 

[Gambino]

Then why do they have a need for agents?

individual baragaining

union = collective bargaining (terrible sp)

tradesmen have completed 4 yrs of apprenticeship class as well...lol sponge most have also completed 4 yrs of probation/parole

 

[Code]

to represent them

What do unions do collectively that an agent cannot?

 

[spongebob]

What do unions do collectively that an agent cannot?

sorry i edited my post and gambino answered it well as well.

 

[spongebob]

individual baragaining

union = collective bargaining (terrible sp)

tradesmen have completed 4 yrs of apprenticeship class as well...lol sponge most have also completed 4 yrs of probation/parole

no not me. but i see it a lot. state troopers or similar showing up at work and hauling off someone with warrants.

i can only speak for the industries that ive worked or been around. and the a lot of non-union hands fall into one of these categories. illegal immigrant, felon, probation, high school dropout, drug head or alcoholic, no crafstmenship etc.

 

[Code]

I guess what I'm failing to grasp is why any pro sports player needs both collective and individual bargaining. In a free market where compensation should be based of performance (workmanship) a player should be able to stand without a union and get his/her proper compensation.

New players shouldn't be able to simply pay dues and get a higher minimum pay simply by virture of membership. New players should have their pay based on expected contributions to their respective team(s). Veteran players should be compensated on their expected contribution....in life (sports especially) it's all about what have you done for me lately....not what did you do for me last season.

 

[Gambino]

I guess what I'm failing to grasp is why any pro sports player needs both collective and individual bargaining. In a free market where compensation should be based of performance (workmanship) a player should be able to stand without a union and get his/her proper compensation.

New players shouldn't be able to simply pay dues and get a higher minimum pay simply by virture of membership. New players should have their pay based on expected contributions to their respective team(s). Veteran players should be compensated on their expected contribution....in life (sports especially) it's all about what have you done for me lately....not what did you do for me last season.

and understandably if there was no union, the owners would pay the players as least as possible, regardless of performance...

 

[spongebob]

I guess what I'm failing to grasp is why any pro sports player needs both collective and individual bargaining. In a free market where compensation should be based of performance (workmanship) a player should be able to stand without a union and get his/her proper compensation.

New players shouldn't be able to simply pay dues and get a higher minimum pay simply by virture of membership. New players should have their pay based on expected contributions to their respective team(s). Veteran players should be compensated on their expected contribution....in life (sports especially) it's all about what have you done for me lately....not what did you do for me last season.

your philosophy is understandable. the fact of the matter is though, that workers have the right to unionize, and thats what they chose to do.

in sports it apears the unions just helped set guidlines. individual players still negotiate thru thier agent for a fair deal and still market determines that.

 

[Code]

I fully agree with the lighter side of unions, but they have no place in pro sports IMO.

In the industrial markets, I can see the merit in setting safety regulations, base pay, and the like... but frankly what do unions do that OSHA, COLA and other state-by-state work conditions standards fall short of.

I'm not being difficult, I just have no idea wtf a union does in todays world that state and federal guidelines do not.

your philosophy is understandable. the fact of the matter is though, that workers have the right to unionize, and thats what they chose to do.

in sports it apears the unions just helped set guidlines. individual players still negotiate thru thier agent for a fair deal and still market determines that.

 

[Spartacus]

what is this NHL I see mentioned?

 

[Gambino]

In the industrial markets, I can see the merit in setting safety regulations, base pay, and the like... but frankly what do unions do that OSHA, COLA and other state-by-state work conditions standards fall short of.

I'm not being difficult, I just have no idea wtf a union does in todays world that state and federal guidelines do not.

OSHA sets the safety standards, it is up to the employer to make sure his employee's have the proper certification and training...it is not in the business to teach safety, only to enforce safety code.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

When I was in Teamsters they managed to take practically as many dues out of my check as much as the extra $ from being in the union. Kind of a waste really.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Gambino -

Don't editorialize on all my posts bor.

I run construction crews in FL; true, I do only one project a year, but it is always a very complex project. At times I have 30 guys on site.

None of them are unionized. They do just fine.

 

[Gambino]

Gambino -

Don't editorialize on all my posts bor.

I run construction crews in FL; true, I do only one project a year, but it is always a very complex project. At times I have 30 guys on site.

None of them are unionized. They do just fine.

editorialize bor? just giving a real life perspective, wtf
you get pissed when peeps offer something that may be contradictory to your perception of how the world operates. If I made a thread speaking of the glorys of union membership I guarantee you would post your negative opinion.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Your first response:

matt their is more to it than your side, trying seeing the issue from the blue collar side.

there is only one side bor. There is still a fair market value for work done, determined by mutual agreement.

The "owners" have a responsibility to drive prices as low as possible, just as the "worker" has a responsibility to drive his wages as high as he can.

Where the two meet, fair market value is established.

Unions often bastardize this process, especially and most distastefully through legislation.

 

[spongebob]

Your first response:



there is only one side bor. There is still a fair market value for work done, determined by mutual agreement.

The "owners" have a responsibility to drive prices as low as possible, just as the "worker" has a responsibility to drive his wages as high as he can.

Where the two meet, fair market value is established.

Unions often bastardize this process, especially and most distastefully through legislation.

lmao, come on matt, big business dont bastardized the process thru legislation???? unions have no where near the political clout big business has. i mean thats flat rediculous.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

lmao, come on matt, big business dont bastardized the process thru legislation???? unions have no where near the political clout big business has. i mean thats flat rediculous.

two wrongs don't make a right homie.

thinking that one wrong justifies another is ridiculous.

 

[spongebob]

two wrongs don't make a right homie.

thinking that one wrong justifies another is ridiculous.

this issue has been discussed too many times here.

the issues are dynamic. so it requires two equal and opposite oppossing forces to help keep it somewhat balanced.

im not say either one is actually wrong. its all just a natural process, human nature if you will.

 

[Gambino]

the issues are dynamic. so it requires two equal and opposite oppossing forces to help keep it somewhat balanced.

.

agreed...

 

[Spartacus]

sponge and gambino have done a fine job arguing their perspective

 

[spongebob]

sponge and gambino have done a fine job arguing their perspective

well thanks. but i dont wanna give the wrong impression. some of my statements may be too broad, especially about non union workers. im not super pro union by any means. i mean anyone that looks at some of the shit they do logically can see they are fucked up in some ways. and it runs both sides. in the end though i will stick with what i said, its dynamic and there is a need for both forces.

 

[EnderJE]

<grabs another bag of popcorn>

When are we going to talk about the red vs blue again?

 

[Spartacus]

Q: How many socialists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: One to petition the Ministry of Light for a bulb, fifty to establish the state production quota, two hundred militia to force the factory unions to allow production of the bulb, and one to surreptitiously order an American lightbulb.

 

[rsnoble-im-back]

I HATE paying $300.00/ month in dues, I HATE dealing with the B/A's, I HATE not being able to solicit my own work.

And yet.....................I would NEVER, EVER go non-union in a million years. If it were my choice. Because all the bullshit mentioned about them is nothing compared to the benefits.

And as far as not needing them anymore...............ask yourself if you could really see Bush upholding labor law. LMFAO!

I tell you what--if you can get rid of greed ill go non-union.

It is the union threat that keeps many companies in check.

You have unions to thank for the 8 hr. work day and your lunch break.

I AM NOT CHINESE, THEREFORE I AM NOT GOING TO HAVE MY STANDARD OF LIVING LOWERED TO SUCH. THIS IS MY FUCKING COUNTRY, WE ARE THE BACKBONE, AND ALL THE ELITE WILL FIND A HARD TIME SPENDING ALL THEIR CASH FROM A SIX FOOT DEEP HOLE.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

I HATE paying $300.00/ month in dues, I HATE dealing with the B/A's, I HATE not being able to solicit my own work.

And yet.....................I would NEVER, EVER go non-union in a million years. If it were my choice. Because all the bullshit mentioned about them is nothing compared to the benefits.

And as far as not needing them anymore...............ask yourself if you could really see Bush upholding labor law. LMFAO!

I tell you what--if you can get rid of greed ill go non-union.

It is the union threat that keeps many companies in check.

You have unions to thank for the 8 hr. work day and your lunch break.

I AM NOT CHINESE, THEREFORE I AM NOT GOING TO HAVE MY STANDARD OF LIVING LOWERED TO SUCH. THIS IS MY FUCKING COUNTRY, WE ARE THE BACKBONE, AND ALL THE ELITE WILL FIND A HARD TIME SPENDING ALL THEIR CASH FROM A SIX FOOT DEEP HOLE.

I was waiting for you to post up.

I haven't hda an 8 hour work day in years.

You wouldn't get past the dogs.

 

[EnderJE]

I was waiting for you to post up.

I haven't hda an 8 hour work day in years.

You wouldn't get past the dogs.

Wow. I remember days like that before I had kids.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a union for a couple of years so I could stop climbing for awhile. But, I figured that if it ever came to be, I'd eventually hate it and move somewhere else or start something on the side.

 

[Code]

You have unions to thank for the 8 hr. work day and your lunch break.

So by default you are limited in over-time and forced to work just an 8 hour day?

The Department of Labor actually limits how much an employer can ask you to work based on the job title.

 

[Razorguns]

So by default you are limited in over-time and forced to work just an 8 hour day?

The Department of Labor actually limits how much an employer can ask you to work based on the job title.

I think only "specialized occupations" don't get those limits. Factory workers, etc. get protections from being asked to work overtime w/o choice.

 

[PIGEON-RAT]

Unions have done more harm than good for decades now. Take a look at the steel industry and the auto industry in the US. Unions made costs downwardly inflexible, and in the case of the auto industry actually added mounting costs for pensions that outweigh the costs of current employment.

So because of this inflexibility and the inability for the industries to become cost-efficient, they've lost their comparative advantage and the business is going overseas where Big Labor hasn't grown out of control. These two industries which were once the pride of America are on the verge of collapse. When a company is facing imminent bankruptcy, workers lose their jobs. Unions ignored how their demands would affect their place in an international market and fought tooth and nail to keep unsustainable pensions and benefits, and now jobs are being eliminated on large scales just to salvage a few and keep the industries afloat.

Unions have their place, but they've been practicing a doctrine of ignorance at the expense of their workers for a long time now.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Unions have done more harm than good for decades now. Take a look at the steel industry and the auto industry in the US. Unions made costs downwardly inflexible, and in the case of the auto industry actually added mounting costs for pensions that outweigh the costs of current employment.

So because of this inflexibility and the inability for the industries to become cost-efficient, they've lost their comparative advantage and the business is going overseas where Big Labor hasn't grown out of control. These two industries which were once the pride of America are on the verge of collapse. When a company is facing imminent bankruptcy, workers lose their jobs. Unions ignored how their demands would affect their place in an international market and fought tooth and nail to keep unsustainable pensions and benefits, and now jobs are being eliminated on large scales just to salvage a few and keep the industries afloat.

Unions have their place, but they've been practicing a doctrine of ignorance at the expense of their workers for a long time now.

That about sums it up. OF COURSE the jobs are going out of the country. Why stay?

 

[Code]

I think only "specialized occupations" don't get those limits. Factory workers, etc. get protections from being asked to work overtime w/o choice.

DoL regulates all jobs on one level or another, even mine...the IT industry.

If you're in IT contractor making over 35 an hour, ever wonder why you don't get time and half anymore? Department of Labor.

If you're a paid IT intern and wonder why you can't work over 37 hours a week? DoL.

 

[spongebob]

Unions have done more harm than good for decades now. Take a look at the steel industry and the auto industry in the US. Unions made costs downwardly inflexible, and in the case of the auto industry actually added mounting costs for pensions that outweigh the costs of current employment.

So because of this inflexibility and the inability for the industries to become cost-efficient, they've lost their comparative advantage and the business is going overseas where Big Labor hasn't grown out of control. These two industries which were once the pride of America are on the verge of collapse. When a company is facing imminent bankruptcy, workers lose their jobs. Unions ignored how their demands would affect their place in an international market and fought tooth and nail to keep unsustainable pensions and benefits, and now jobs are being eliminated on large scales just to salvage a few and keep the industries afloat.

Unions have their place, but they've been practicing a doctrine of ignorance at the expense of their workers for a long time now.

seeing how you have put no blame on the companies management, from the CEO on down, your opinion is merely based on ignorance and bias most likely. so IMO you are retarded.

union represented companies can and do compete while making profits.

 

[Code]

seeing how you have put no blame on the companies management, from the CEO on down, your opinion is merely based on ignorance and bias most likely. so IMO you are retarded.

union represented companies can and do compete while making profits.

For example?

UAW shops, not even close, just look at how many UAW shackled corporations are in the shitter, mostly because of union negotiated pension plans.

FYI, CAFTA passed today. Central American Free Trade Agreement. Unions seem to be losing their grip on controlling the labor markets in the US congress. NAFTA was passed by Clinton, so let's not make this a partisan issue.

 

[spongebob]

For example?

UAW shops, not even close, just look at how many UAW shackled corporations are in the shitter, mostly because of union negotiated pension plans.

FYI, CAFTA passed today. Central American Free Trade Agreement. Unions seem to be losing their grip on controlling the labor markets in the US congress. NAFTA was passed by Clinton, so let's not make this a partisan issue.

enron, worldcom. granted thier not union but its examples of what CEO's and management can do to a company. to sit here and say unions are responsible for everything is just rediculous. but if you wanna believe the propaganda put out by anti union companies or entities then by all means go ahead. but chevy for example makes a shitty product, not constructed shitty, just shitty. that is the companies fault, that is the companies fault they have lost so much market to other companies.

like i said, there are planty of union represented companies competing and making profits. so ill stand by what i said, anyone who puts sole blame on a union or a negotiated item is a retard IMO.

 

[Whiskey]

Good, someday i'll belong to the BLET, which joined the teamsters. Soon to be in the UTU

Whiskey

 

[Gambino]

like i said, there are planty of union represented companies competing and making profits. so ill stand by what i said, anyone who puts sole blame on a union or a negotiated item is a retard IMO.

all the major commerical construction companies are always union and turn a fat profit. Most of these peeps on this thread, union = UAW...

 

[Code]

I was looking for examples of large corporations with a tight union relationship that are succesful.

I just don't see anything out there that suggests a fair market will tolerate unions much longer, save for the construction shops that are a success because they are propped up by state legislation regarding the use of union labor.

enron, worldcom. granted thier not union but its examples of what CEO's and management can do to a company. to sit here and say unions are responsible for everything is just rediculous. but if you wanna believe the propaganda put out by anti union companies or entities then by all means go ahead. but chevy for example makes a shitty product, not constructed shitty, just shitty. that is the companies fault, that is the companies fault they have lost so much market to other companies.

like i said, there are planty of union represented companies competing and making profits. so ill stand by what i said, anyone who puts sole blame on a union or a negotiated item is a retard IMO.

 

[spongebob]

all the major commerical construction companies are always union and turn a fat profit. Most of these peeps on this thread, union = UAW...

yep and most of these peeps probably dont have real first hand experience working with unions so thier information is strictly from tv or reading. i would guess that they only read one side of it. thier views are biased.

 

[Spartacus]

I was waiting for you to post up.

I haven't hda an 8 hour work day in years.

You wouldn't get past the dogs.

bet ya didn't use union labor to dig the mote

 

[spongebob]

I was looking for examples of large corporations with a tight union relationship that are succesful.

I just don't see anything out there that suggests a fair market will tolerate unions much longer, save for the construction shops that are a success because they are propped up by state legislation regarding the use of union labor.

well i work for BP. some sites are union and some are not. this one is. and they are making so much money right now its not even funny. ofcourse one could say its because its a refinery.

but as far as tolerating, the relationship between the two right now is very good from what i can tell. they really are trying to work together on a lot of issues and compromise fairly. in fact the contract was just extended to 2009 without all the negotiating bullshit that usually happens.

 

[spongebob]

I was looking for examples of large corporations with a tight union relationship that are succesful.

I just don't see anything out there that suggests a fair market will tolerate unions much longer, save for the construction shops that are a success because they are propped up by state legislation regarding the use of union labor.

i work in what you would call the petrochemicals industry. there is the highest concentration of these facilities in and around houston in the world. so wages and benefits are somewhat similar. and in general the non union plants make more money than the union plants. and this is not a non skilled job, the standard is becoming you must have a degree.

so is it the fair market driving this or is it unions?

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

all the major commerical construction companies are always union and turn a fat profit. Most of these peeps on this thread, union = UAW...

All of them are union? The guys building my condo in Palm Beach are not union. Many of the commercial builders around here (north FL) are non-union.


I know the construction biz. Between being in it as a builder, an investor and seeing it on the insurance / financial / legal side (residential and commerical) I know that the majority of joibs would be just as profitable without the union intervention.

Your example just doesn't make sense. COnstruction is going ot be profitable beacuse the costs are always passed on. SO the builders make their money as soon as the loans are approved. The checkpoints for commerical construction financing are always based on cosntruction progress, so the money is always there.

Once the project is done, the builder is paid. The project may fail entirely, but the builder usually escapes criticism when this happens, even though the costs of construction were the real cause of the project's ultimate failure.

We'll close with an example:

In the state of NY, a commerical concrete worker costs $47 / hr. T A builder can hire non-union, but if they do, they have to pay the same rates. I know guys who do residential concrete work for $18 an hour.

Roughly the same skill sets apply for concrete work on a residential or commercial job. Why is on 2.5 times more expensive? Unions.

These same companies would be much more profitable absent unions, and unions would dry up absent protectionst legislation like the example I just cited.

 

[Gambino]

All of them are union? The guys building my condo in Palm Beach are not union. Many of the commercial builders around here (north FL) are non-union.


I know the construction biz. Between being in it as a builder, an investor and seeing it on the insurance / financial / legal side (residential and commerical) I know that the majority of joibs would be just as profitable without the union intervention.

Your example just doesn't make sense. COnstruction is going ot be profitable beacuse the costs are always passed on. SO the builders make their money as soon as the loans are approved. The checkpoints for commerical construction financing are always based on cosntruction progress, so the money is always there.

Once the project is done, the builder is paid. The project may fail entirely, but the builder usually escapes criticism when this happens, even though the costs of construction were the real cause of the project's ultimate failure.

We'll close with an example:

In the state of NY, a commerical concrete worker costs $47 / hr. T A builder can hire non-union, but if they do, they have to pay the same rates. I know guys who do residential concrete work for $18 an hour.

Roughly the same skill sets apply for concrete work on a residential or commercial job. Why is on 2.5 times more expensive? Unions.

These same companies would be much more profitable absent unions, and unions would dry up absent protectionst legislation like the example I just cited.

I should have said in the north, my bad...

further more, building one buliding a year, like you said you did, does not make you a commerical contractor, fyi...
lol you also said you smell the breath of all the employees that do construction work for you. Sounds like real classy workers you got there. You ask such an insulting question to my face i'd be apt to club you with my claw hammer...

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

enron, worldcom. granted thier not union but its examples of what CEO's and management can do to a company. to sit here and say unions are responsible for everything is just rediculous. but if you wanna believe the propaganda put out by anti union companies or entities then by all means go ahead. but chevy for example makes a shitty product, not constructed shitty, just shitty. that is the companies fault, that is the companies fault they have lost so much market to other companies.

like i said, there are planty of union represented companies competing and making profits. so ill stand by what i said, anyone who puts sole blame on a union or a negotiated item is a retard IMO.

You make the mistake of legitimizing one bad entity by saying there is another.

Yep, idiot and criminal CEOs ruin companies. One key difference is that while many execs from Enron and WorldCom are in prison, union leaders from GM, Ford, United, etc are not in prison.

Unions are not truly bad until they get legislative protection, which is the first thing they look for. Then they become ruinous.

 

[spongebob]

All of them are union? The guys building my condo in Palm Beach are not union. Many of the commercial builders around here (north FL) are non-union.


I know the construction biz. Between being in it as a builder, an investor and seeing it on the insurance / financial / legal side (residential and commerical) I know that the majority of joibs would be just as profitable without the union intervention.

Your example just doesn't make sense. COnstruction is going ot be profitable beacuse the costs are always passed on. SO the builders make their money as soon as the loans are approved. The checkpoints for commerical construction financing are always based on cosntruction progress, so the money is always there.

Once the project is done, the builder is paid. The project may fail entirely, but the builder usually escapes criticism when this happens, even though the costs of construction were the real cause of the project's ultimate failure.

We'll close with an example:

In the state of NY, a commerical concrete worker costs $47 / hr. T A builder can hire non-union, but if they do, they have to pay the same rates. I know guys who do residential concrete work for $18 an hour.

Roughly the same skill sets apply for concrete work on a residential or commercial job. Why is on 2.5 times more expensive? Unions.

These same companies would be much more profitable absent unions, and unions would dry up absent protectionst legislation like the example I just cited.

i dont think anyone would disagree that companies would be profitable without union, but the point is that companies can be profitable with unions.

and i dont think anyone would disagree that unions have and use the leverage to negotiate better pay and benefits. nothing wrong with that to me.

 

[spongebob]

You make the mistake of legitimizing one bad entity by saying there is another.

Yep, idiot and criminal CEOs ruin companies. One key difference is that while many execs from Enron and WorldCom are in prison, union leaders from GM, Ford, United, etc are not in prison.

Unions are not truly bad until they get legislative protection, which is the first thing they look for. Then they become ruinous.

well theres a difference between knowingly doing what enron and worldcom did and unions negotiating a contract. you still have not proved that a contract destroyed a company. as it cant be proved.

oh and im not legitimizing one bad entity, i dont believe unions are a bad entity. some of thier actions by some of them i may not agree with but im not throwing the baby out with the bathwater like some here. nor would i do that for all companies.

the only thing i can do in an true honest discussion here is speak from experience. and from what ive seen, i believe unions are not inherently harmful to companies.

 

[spongebob]

here's an example matt. just saw on the news and i didnt catch all of it.

a cleaning company in houston is paying thier employees minimum wage. the same company but in a state above tx, i think oklahoma, is paying the employees more than 10$ an hour. about 4$ more an hour.

now one could argue that houston has an influx of cheap labor and thats what market conditions dictate. or one could argue that a large majority of the houston employees are mexicans so the company is taking advantage of them. id be willing to bet that the oklahoma employees are a majority white and that market conditions are not dictating 10$ an hour.

discrimination? i dunno but this is where the union comes into play because i seriously doubt any govt regs would cover this.

 

[Razorguns]

Unions raise the costs of production -- which gets passed up along the tree. Remember: SOMEONE'S gotta pay for those increased costs.

Why aren't some people realizing that? If you wanna pay more for your mortgage or lease -- feel free.

When governments hear the whining and start sticking their nose in -- the free market system of fair market value gets thrown to the curb. Never a good trend.

To make it clearer:

Employers always want to pay as little as possible.

Employees always want to be paid as much as possible.

Where the two meet -- is fair market value. The market sets that itself. When the Government comes in, through union pressure, and intervenes -- it fucks that formula up. Odd cuz it seems to work perfectly fine in EVERY OTHER FACET OF AMERICAN BUSINESS.

The majority of expenses for companies are labor costs. Imagine through competition, how prices would drop if costs could get lowered freely. Imagine that scenario with airlines. Wouldn't it be cool to pay $90 to go to vegas???

 

[Razorguns]

discrimination? i dunno but this is where the union comes into play because i seriously doubt any govt regs would cover this.

Nah. If you have a big corporate HQ in Montana and need IT folks -- you'll probably have to pay big bucks to get skilled IT people to relocate and work there.

If your HQ is in silicon valley, there's probably shitloads of unemployed IT folks from the dot-com bust. Hence u can pay a lot less cuz they'll accept less.

Markets are different, thus market prices for those occupations will be different. (not to mention, cost of living, etc.).

 

[spongebob]

Nah. If you have a big corporate HQ in Montana and need IT folks -- you'll probably have to pay big bucks to get skilled IT people to relocate and work there.

If your HQ is in silicon valley, there's probably shitloads of unemployed IT folks from the dot-com bust. Hence u can pay a lot less cuz they'll accept less.

Markets are different, thus market prices for those occupations will be different. (not to mention, cost of living, etc.).

well you cant just cut away my example and only use part of my post. it really makes no sense to do that.

you only gave an example of ideal situation. i gave you a real life situation which you totally ignored and did not address.

as far as cost of living, if you looked at my example anyone could guess that houston would have a higher cost of living than oklahoma.

 

[spongebob]

Unions raise the costs of production -- which gets passed up along the tree. Remember: SOMEONE'S gotta pay for those increased costs.

Why aren't some people realizing that? If you wanna pay more for your mortgage or lease -- feel free.

When governments hear the whining and start sticking their nose in -- the free market system of fair market value gets thrown to the curb. Never a good trend.

To make it clearer:

Employers always want to pay as little as possible.

Employees always want to be paid as much as possible.

Where the two meet -- is fair market value. The market sets that itself. When the Government comes in, through union pressure, and intervenes -- it fucks that formula up. Odd cuz it seems to work perfectly fine in EVERY OTHER FACET OF AMERICAN BUSINESS.

The majority of expenses for companies are labor costs. Imagine through competition, how prices would drop if costs could get lowered freely. Imagine that scenario with airlines. Wouldn't it be cool to pay $90 to go to vegas???

i dont think your saying anything that hasnt been said 14 times on this thread. we know this.

ive already given a situation where non union companies actually pay more than similar union rep companies.

 

[manny78]

Unions ruined the auto industry in my region. We used to have Renault, Hyundai, GM. All gone because their members went for more and more while Dirty Sanchez in Mexico could do exactly the same shit for half salary. They also ruined law enforcement.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

They also ruined law enforcement.

Public sector unions are another thing entirely.

Even the king of all liberals (that would be FDR) thought that these were a bad idea.

 

[Spartacus]

Public sector unions are another thing entirely.

Even the king of all liberals (that would be FDR) thought that these were a bad idea.

get to work Matt!

 

[Code]

Which companies did you list as successful union corporations?

i dont think your saying anything that hasnt been said 14 times on this thread. we know this.

ive already given a situation where non union companies actually pay more than similar union rep companies.

 

[Razorguns]

as far as cost of living, if you looked at my example anyone could guess that houston would have a higher cost of living than oklahoma.

That only acts as one factor on whether someone accepts that job at that salary or not.

People set salaries believe it or not. To set it via their acceptance. *Voluntary* agreement. So if all these houston mexicans want to work for $8/hr -- that's the rate in that area. If all of them had better offers elsewhere -- no one would accept $8/hr -- and the company would have to offer more. Too simple.

And since Houston has a huge demographic of minimum-wage mexicans --- there's probably a huge demand for those unskilled jobs, and thus no sense paying $12/hr when many will work for $8/hr. Supply/demand.

 

[spongebob]

That only acts as one factor on whether someone accepts that job at that salary or not.

People set salaries believe it or not. To set it via their acceptance. *Voluntary* agreement. So if all these houston mexicans want to work for $8/hr -- that's the rate in that area. If all of them had better offers elsewhere -- no one would accept $8/hr -- and the company would have to offer more. Too simple.

And since Houston has a huge demographic of minimum-wage mexicans --- there's probably a huge demand for those unskilled jobs, and thus no sense paying $12/hr when many will work for $8/hr. Supply/demand.

yea or it could just be discrimination. i guess lulac will figure it out.

 

[spongebob]

Unions ruined the auto industry in my region. We used to have Renault, Hyundai, GM. All gone because their members went for more and more while Dirty Sanchez in Mexico could do exactly the same shit for half salary. They also ruined law enforcement.

well i guess all americans could revert back to 'dirty sanchez' type of labor practices. hey while were trying to level the playing field lets negate all the useless environmental laws too. i mean if were trying to compete with the 'dirty sanchez' of the world why not enslave children in sweat shops as well.

i mean thats how i wanna live, just like the third world 'dirty sanchez'.

 

[Gambino]

lol all code's posts disappeared

 

[manny78]

well i guess all americans could revert back to 'dirty sanchez' type of labor practices. hey while were trying to level the playing field lets negate all the useless environmental laws too. i mean if were trying to compete with the 'dirty sanchez' of the world why not enslave children in sweat shops as well.

i mean thats how i wanna live, just like the third world 'dirty sanchez'.

You dont get it: we can't compete with them on certain area. If we try then we have two options: either we focus on expensive/high tech models or we just subsidize these jobs and create the illusion that we<re playing at the same level. It happened befre with other fields (textile for example). If we cant beat them then let's just put our efforts elsewhere instead of using taxpayers money to subsidize some overpaid fatass...

 

[spongebob]

You dont get it: we can't compete with them on certain area. If we try then we have two options: either we focus on expensive/high tech models or we just subsidize these jobs and create the illusion that we<re playing at the same level. It happened befre with other fields (textile for example). If we cant beat them then let's just put our efforts elsewhere instead of using taxpayers money to subsidize some overpaid fatass...

i refuse to give up!!

 

[Sub-Zero]

i wonder what its like to doubleteam a teamster.

prolly awsome

 

[Tiervexx]

The end of an error? I mean era?

We'll see.

lol i fail to see how it was such an error, union membership...higher wages, benefits, pension plan, fair treatment...you act as if these big corporations really give a fuck about their employees...matt their is more to it than your side, trying seeing the issue from the blue collar side.

The teamsters have a reputation for being one of the more violent unions, so fuck'em.