Teamsters leaving AFL-CIO

[Tiervexx]

Unions raise the costs of production -- which gets passed up along the tree. Remember: SOMEONE'S gotta pay for those increased costs.

Why aren't some people realizing that? If you wanna pay more for your mortgage or lease -- feel free.

When governments hear the whining and start sticking their nose in -- the free market system of fair market value gets thrown to the curb. Never a good trend.

To make it clearer:

Employers always want to pay as little as possible.

Employees always want to be paid as much as possible.

Where the two meet -- is fair market value. The market sets that itself. When the Government comes in, through union pressure, and intervenes -- it fucks that formula up. Odd cuz it seems to work perfectly fine in EVERY OTHER FACET OF AMERICAN BUSINESS.

The majority of expenses for companies are labor costs. Imagine through competition, how prices would drop if costs could get lowered freely. Imagine that scenario with airlines. Wouldn't it be cool to pay $90 to go to vegas???

but you're not supposed to use economic logic Razor, you are supposed to just say what ever feels right

 

[Tiervexx]

You have unions to thank for the 8 hr. work day and your lunch break.

Unions have never been a very large portion of the working population, and hours worked begain to fall because all the Economic growth made it possible to produce what was needed in less time.

If we all had 8 hour work weeks at the start of the industrial revolution everyone would have starved.

 

[rsnoble-im-back]

I was waiting for you to post up.

I haven't hda an 8 hour work day in years.

You wouldn't get past the dogs.

Bullshit! I'll wear my Ninja outfit and bring t-bones laced with crack with me and your slobber hounds will forget all about their training!

Seriously if I could figure out a way to get a liqour store in up here(good location, many obstacles) ill have a lot less headache. I am trully sick of having someone trying to stick it to me all the time.

 

[Gambino]

The teamsters have a reputation for being one of the more violent unions, so fuck'em.

stop watching so many movies...furthermore, did you know that the their are other unions besides the Teamsters?

 

[spongebob]

Unions have never been a very large portion of the working population, and hours worked begain to fall because all the Economic growth made it possible to produce what was needed in less time.

If we all had 8 hour work weeks at the start of the industrial revolution everyone would have starved.

uhmmm not really, you see the 8hr work day actually makes you more money. no one said the 8hr work day limits you to just 8hrs.

what it did was allow 1.5 pay for hrs worked over the 8hrs. which is fair right?

 

[Spartacus]

I need a union
soon

 

[spongebob]

Unions ruined the auto industry in my region. We used to have Renault, Hyundai, GM. All gone because their members went for more and more while Dirty Sanchez in Mexico could do exactly the same shit for half salary. They also ruined law enforcement.

well the problem with your arguement is its biased. your only posting what yo read somewhere and im sure it wasnt union literature but anti union literature.

so the rest of your arguement might as well be flushed.

 

[manny78]

well the problem with your arguement is its biased. your only posting what yo read somewhere and im sure it wasnt union literature but anti union literature.

so the rest of your arguement might as well be flushed.

Dude, these plants had several strikes in a short time frame. First it was Renault. They realized that our workers were overpaid and the same job could be done elsewhere. Then Hyundai (which had a hard time selling their shitbox back then) asked their workers for a pay-cut. Union said no. They left.

GM is the most recent example. We had a huge plant in Boisbriand. That<s where they made the Camaro. Once the Camaro was discontinued, the company told the union that under the current conditions, the plant was cost effective. Union once again told them to fuck off and GM left.

 

[spongebob]

Dude, these plants had several strikes in a short time frame. First it was Renault. They realized that our workers were overpaid and the same job could be done elsewhere. Then Hyundai (which had a hard time selling their shitbox back then) asked their workers for a pay-cut. Union said no. They left.

GM is the most recent example. We had a huge plant in Boisbriand. That<s where they made the Camaro. Once the Camaro was discontinued, the company told the union that under the current conditions, the plant was cost effective. Union once again told them to fuck off and GM left.

i here your story, but none of that proves that it was the unions fault. i could say company greed.

not to mention GM dont know what the fuck thier doing anymore and it was proven by discontinuing the camero. shitty ass product and the union didnt do that, the company did. so dont blame the union for that one.

this is my opnion on pay and benefit cuts.

they do absolutely nothing but are only a 'move' to show the board thier doing something. change the fucking management, from CEO on down, that got them in the shitty position to begin with. unions wages and benefits DID NOT get GM in that position. but they dont wanna change gaurd they all protect themselves and blame the workers.

people need to realize this is a little more complex than 'unions'. what a scapegoat though.

 

[manny78]

i here your story, but none of that proves that it was the unions fault. i could say company greed.

not to mention GM dont know what the fuck thier doing anymore and it was proven by discontinuing the camero. shitty ass product and the union didnt do that, the company did. so dont blame the union for that one.

this is my opnion on pay and benefit cuts.

they do absolutely nothing but are only a 'move' to show the board thier doing something. change the fucking management, from CEO on down, that got them in the shitty position to begin with. unions wages and benefits DID NOT get GM in that position. but they dont wanna change gaurd they all protect themselves and blame the workers.

people need to realize this is a little more complex than 'unions'. what a scapegoat though.

Dude I'm not saying it's the union's fault only, GM has been known for its poor management and shitty product BUT when the same car can be build for less then either you try to compete with them or you just quit...

 

[spongebob]

Dude I'm not saying it's the union's fault only, GM has been known for its poor management and shitty product BUT when the same car can be build for less then either you try to compete with them or you just quit...

thats my whole point. companies can pay the better wages and benfits if they quit screwing up.

there is no way we can compete, environmental laws, unrealistic labor practices, govt restrictions. no way we can compete AT ALL or at any wage reduction.

im telling you that is just smoke and mirrors.

 

[spongebob]

Dude, these plants had several strikes in a short time frame. First it was Renault. They realized that our workers were overpaid and the same job could be done elsewhere. Then Hyundai (which had a hard time selling their shitbox back then) asked their workers for a pay-cut. Union said no. They left.

GM is the most recent example. We had a huge plant in Boisbriand. That<s where they made the Camaro. Once the Camaro was discontinued, the company told the union that under the current conditions, the plant was cost effective. Union once again told them to fuck off and GM left.

oh i forgot to ask you. you dont mention anywhere in here if the companies asked the salary people to take a cut of any kind, you know, the guys that screwed up.

 

[PIGEON-RAT]

seeing how you have put no blame on the companies management, from the CEO on down, your opinion is merely based on ignorance and bias most likely. so IMO you are retarded.

union represented companies can and do compete while making profits.

Great rebuttal. We're talking about entire INDUSTRIES here. Every single company in the industry has to face the same restrictions on labor. If there were some companies that were thriving now then we could get into managerial incompetence, but that's not the case. The industries were crippled.

You have proven your ignorance.

 

[PIGEON-RAT]

oh i forgot to ask you. you dont mention anywhere in here if the companies asked the salary people to take a cut of any kind, you know, the guys that screwed up.

Ford's CEO has not taken a salary since he joined the company in 2001. He also refused stock compensation and bonuses up until this year. I know this is the case for a few other companies as well.

People definitely have been asking for management to take pay cuts.

 

[spongebob]

Great rebuttal. We're talking about entire INDUSTRIES here. Every single company in the industry has to face the same restrictions on labor. If there were some companies that were thriving now then we could get into managerial incompetence, but that's not the case. The industries were crippled.

You have proven your ignorance.

i was speaking about all unions, all companies. sorry you got confused.

regardless your silly statements are rediculous in nature. bottom line is the companies failed due to piss poor managerial decisions. they lost thier asses off because they were cheaters. just like in the late 70's and early 80's it was just about proven the biog three intentionally made 5yr failure rates on parts. the japs came in and crushed them handedly because they WANTED and DID make a damn good product. so shove those managerial incompentencies up your ass. lol

 

[Gambino]

this thread is not the same without code

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

i was speaking about all unions, all companies. sorry you got confused.

regardless your silly statements are rediculous in nature. bottom line is the companies failed due to piss poor managerial decisions. they lost thier asses off because they were cheaters. just like in the late 70's and early 80's it was just about proven the biog three intentionally made 5yr failure rates on parts. the japs came in and crushed them handedly because they WANTED and DID make a damn good product. so shove those managerial incompentencies up your ass. lol

Too simple.

One could respond that the enormous costs of unions (ie wages above market, pension plans) limited the ability of automakers to invest in meaningful R&D.

 

[spongebob]

Ford's CEO has not taken a salary since he joined the company in 2001. He also refused stock compensation and bonuses up until this year. I know this is the case for a few other companies as well.

People definitely have been asking for management to take pay cuts.

hahahahahahahahahaha......hahahahaha....hahahahha

i can tell where your coming from with these last two rediculous post.

one CEO, what a rebuttal to the literally thousands of union rep companies out there.

and who are these 'people' you mention?

lol

 

[spongebob]

Too simple.

One could respond that the enormous costs of unions (ie wages above market, pension plans) limited the ability of automakers to invest in meaningful R&D.

correct matt, that is why i said its a very complex issue. most people here are only blaming the unions.

i dont even think RAT read the whole thread.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

hahahahahahahahahaha......hahahahaha....hahahahha

i can tell where your coming from with these last two rediculous post.

one CEO, what a rebuttal to the literally thousands of union rep companies out there.

and who are these 'people' you mention?

lol

The point you are overlooking is that absent unions, companies would always run better. This is a fact because employees do not acquire any special qualities when they are grouped into a collective that they would not acquire on their own.

Unions only add costs. This is beyond debate, and all the CEO shenanigans in the world will never change this or transform unions. They always have been, and always will be, a burden to companies.

Many say that the good things they fought for were worth that burden. Unions stopped "exploitation" of workers to some extent, but even that is a lot of nonsense. People forget that factory jobs were highly sought after. Even a 7-day, 12 hour work week is better than what it repalced: farming. Yes, using violence against strikebreakers is bad. There were some real victories for the Mother Jones crowd.

So even a lot of the "unions stopped worker exploitation" stuff is sheer mythology. Regardless, many of those protections are enshrined in the legislation today. The only thing unions have stopped is growth.

It is time for this anachronism to die.

 

[EnderJE]

It is time for this anachronism to die.

Perhaps, but it is unlikely. You would have to change the entitlement mentality that is sometimes found in all of us.

If you could do that, then you might as well change it to "give EJE $5" mentality. Hell, I'd be rich!

 

[spongebob]

The point you are overlooking is that absent unions, companies would always run better. This is a fact because employees do not acquire any special qualities when they are grouped into a collective that they would not acquire on their own.

Unions only add costs. This is beyond debate, and all the CEO shenanigans in the world will never change this or transform unions. They always have been, and always will be, a burden to companies.

Many say that the good things they fought for were worth that burden. Unions stopped "exploitation" of workers to some extent, but even that is a lot of nonsense. People forget that factory jobs were highly sought after. Even a 7-day, 12 hour work week is better than what it repalced: farming. Yes, using violence against strikebreakers is bad. There were some real victories for the Mother Jones crowd.

So even a lot of the "unions stopped worker exploitation" stuff is sheer mythology. Regardless, many of those protections are enshrined in the legislation today. The only thing unions have stopped is growth.

It is time for this anachronism to die.

1,2 - good points and cuts to the chase and i would agree for the most part.

3 - well yes a 7/12 is better than farming but isnt a 7/12 with OT even better? so we apply this same theory to all the other labor 'perks' and we conclude that yes, unions made it a lot better for the hourly american worker.

your right its hard to defend union legitimacy when labor laws exist on the books. but some people would much prefer to have a union with a black and white contract vs having to proove thier case in a court of law.

case in point, i recently just found a new job. i gave my former employer only a 1 week notice due to circumstances out of my control. my employer told me i was not entitled to my 60+hrs of accrued vacation because i didnt give a 2 week notice.

i earned that vacation. now you tell me if im entitled to it??? is there a law covering that???

well it clearly states in the contract that ONLY a notice must be given. not only that, they are stating it is on a case by case basis. can that be discrimination? well now if the union cant get the HR manager to agree im gonna have to take it up with the state.

 

[Mr. dB]

It is time for this anachronism to die.

I'm not convinced that the conditions which made the unions necessary in the early 20th Century would not re-surface if the unions dissappeared.

 

[Tiervexx]

stop watching so many movies...furthermore, did you know that the their are other unions besides the Teamsters?

I said "...one of the more violent unions". So, no gambino, I don't know there are other unions.

as for the movie comment, if you are seriously unaware of what unions do to protect their monopolies over labor than you are about as stupid as I already knew you to be.

 

[Tiervexx]

1,2 - good points and cuts to the chase and i would agree for the most part.

3 - well yes a 7/12 is better than farming but isnt a 7/12 with OT even better? so we apply this same theory to all the other labor 'perks' and we conclude that yes, unions made it a lot better for the hourly american worker.

your right its hard to defend union legitimacy when labor laws exist on the books. but some people would much prefer to have a union with a black and white contract vs having to proove thier case in a court of law.

case in point, i recently just found a new job. i gave my former employer only a 1 week notice due to circumstances out of my control. my employer told me i was not entitled to my 60+hrs of accrued vacation because i didnt give a 2 week notice.

i earned that vacation. now you tell me if im entitled to it??? is there a law covering that???

well it clearly states in the contract that ONLY a notice must be given. not only that, they are stating it is on a case by case basis. can that be discrimination? well now if the union cant get the HR manager to agree im gonna have to take it up with the state.

Yes, that boss is an asshole for being that picky HOWEVER the 2 week thing is there for a reason. It is a huge pain for companies to have to make last second adjustments for employies that suprise them.

I agree that sometimes it might be better to have a black and white contract that just spells this crap out more clearly, so if a union manages to work that out with a willing company than great, but if you have to use the state or threaten scalps then I am not going to feel sorry for you.

 

[Gambino]

I said "...one of the more violent unions". So, no gambino, I don't know there are other unions.

as for the movie comment, if you are seriously unaware of what unions do to protect their monopolies over labor than you are about as stupid as I already knew you to be.

lol captain big brain please tell me about your vast union experience oh wise labor leader...lemme guess, you have none correct?
Please list some violent union labor practices please, gimme some links to prove your so called facts...I've been a union member for 5 years and have never witnessed what you alledge...and all you are doing, btw, is alledging things you cannot back up

 

[spongebob]

Yes, that boss is an asshole for being that picky HOWEVER the 2 week thing is there for a reason. It is a huge pain for companies to have to make last second adjustments for employies that suprise them.

I agree that sometimes it might be better to have a black and white contract that just spells this crap out more clearly, so if a union manages to work that out with a willing company than great, but if you have to use the state or threaten scalps then I am not going to feel sorry for you.

i understand the HOWEVER, but that doesnt make a difference whether i should recieve my EARNED benefits. bottom line is im entitled to them. no ifs, ands, or butt's about it. not even debatable. besides in my case no adjustments were neccesary.

im not understanding you on the second one. but let me clarify, my union is going in today to talk to the HR manager today about this. IF he cannot get it resolved my only recousre is thru the state. because i no longer work there i can not file a grievence. so the state will be my only recourse.

but my main point is, having a contract eliminates having to go theu the courts for most if not all cases.

 

[spongebob]

I said "...one of the more violent unions". So, no gambino, I don't know there are other unions.

as for the movie comment, if you are seriously unaware of what unions do to protect their monopolies over labor than you are about as stupid as I already knew you to be.

ive been union for six yrs, havent seen much. we were on a 5 month lockout once and i never saw one illegal activity. my opinon is most of those strong arm tactics are long gone. at least from what i hear from the old timers in this area.

 

[Gambino]

ive been union for six yrs, havent seen much. we were on a 5 month lockout once and i never saw one illegal activity. my opinon is most of those strong arm tactics are long gone. at least from what i hear from the old timers in this area.

I guarantee this kid has no real life union experience other than watching the movie "Hoffa."

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

I guarantee this kid has no real life union experience other than watching the movie "Hoffa."

Ive never been in politics either; I can still smell bullshit.

Experience is a two edged sword.

 

[Gambino]

Ive never been in politics either; I can still smell bullshit.

Experience is a two edged sword.

As much as you fancy yourself a budding politican, you are gonna need to learn a bit of perspective before your political career picks up.

if you are gonna alledge that unions are violent then come with some solid proof...a fairly hefty allegation that you haven't even made, even with all your distrust. the dude must have some union experience to make such a claim, i wanna know what it is...

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

As much as you fancy yourself a budding politican, you are gonna need to learn a bit of perspective before your political career picks up.

if you are gonna alledge that unions are violent then come with some solid proof...a fairly hefty allegation that you haven't even made, even with all your distrust. the dude must have some union experience to make such a claim, i wanna know what it is...

Only thing I will ever be in politics is a large donor.

Agree with your post.

 

[PIGEON-RAT]

i was speaking about all unions, all companies. sorry you got confused.

regardless your silly statements are rediculous in nature. bottom line is the companies failed due to piss poor managerial decisions. they lost thier asses off because they were cheaters. just like in the late 70's and early 80's it was just about proven the biog three intentionally made 5yr failure rates on parts. the japs came in and crushed them handedly because they WANTED and DID make a damn good product. so shove those managerial incompentencies up your ass. lol

See, where my responses are based on facts and intensive study of this very issue, yours are based mostly on generalizations and propaganda.

I don't deny that American companies grew too comfortable in their position, and I do not blame their demise entirely on unions, but the fact remains that these unions that promised to ensure jobs for their workers only hastened the downfall of their employers.

Keeping with the auto industry example, the big three are paying benefits to nearly 500,000 retirees compared to their fewer than 300,000 current active employees. Ford spends 70% of its $2.8 billion health bill on retirees. About $1,200 of each car GM sells goes to pay for health care alone. These health costs are the single largest cost issue that US automakers face.

Japanese automakers hire younger, non-unionized workers, right here in the US now to avoid tariffs. Now let's contrast the fate of the employees...

The benefits obligations of US automakers has become so unwieldy those 500,000 retirees are forced to take reductions in benefits anyway while those 300,000 current employees are losing their jobs because their employers can't stay afloat. That $1,200 cost on each car for GM is a sunk cost while Japanese companies could spend that same money on features to make their cars more appealing to consumers.

So American companies are dying out and their union employees are losing their jobs in large numbers over time. Japanese companies are thriving with a more productive non-union workforce and because of this success their employees have a kind of job security that will never be enjoyed by US producers again.

Japanese companies certainly did make better managerial decisions: they refused to let unions cripple them.

 

[Mr. dB]

Japanese companies certainly did make better managerial decisions: they refused to let unions cripple them.

For one thing, they don't have to worry about employee or retiree health benefits, because Japan has socialized medicine.

 

[rsnoble-im-back]

fuk rats

 

[rsnoble-im-back]

See, where my responses are based on facts and intensive study of this very issue, yours are based mostly on generalizations and propaganda.

I don't deny that American companies grew too comfortable in their position, and I do not blame their demise entirely on unions, but the fact remains that these unions that promised to ensure jobs for their workers only hastened the downfall of their employers.

Keeping with the auto industry example, the big three are paying benefits to nearly 500,000 retirees compared to their fewer than 300,000 current active employees. Ford spends 70% of its $2.8 billion health bill on retirees. About $1,200 of each car GM sells goes to pay for health care alone. These health costs are the single largest cost issue that US automakers face.

Japanese automakers hire younger, non-unionized workers, right here in the US now to avoid tariffs. Now let's contrast the fate of the employees...

The benefits obligations of US automakers has become so unwieldy those 500,000 retirees are forced to take reductions in benefits anyway while those 300,000 current employees are losing their jobs because their employers can't stay afloat. That $1,200 cost on each car for GM is a sunk cost while Japanese companies could spend that same money on features to make their cars more appealing to consumers.

So American companies are dying out and their union employees are losing their jobs in large numbers over time. Japanese companies are thriving with a more productive non-union workforce and because of this success their employees have a kind of job security that will never be enjoyed by US producers again.

Japanese companies certainly did make better managerial decisions: they refused to let unions cripple them.

And so what is your solution? That would be just real cool to just tell all retirees to all of the sudden fuk off so GM can hire on even better CEO's. Fuk it, if were going down so are they and there won't be a winner.

 

[spongebob]

See, where my responses are based on facts and intensive study of this very issue, yours are based mostly on generalizations and propaganda.

I don't deny that American companies grew too comfortable in their position, and I do not blame their demise entirely on unions, but the fact remains that these unions that promised to ensure jobs for their workers only hastened the downfall of their employers.

Keeping with the auto industry example, the big three are paying benefits to nearly 500,000 retirees compared to their fewer than 300,000 current active employees. Ford spends 70% of its $2.8 billion health bill on retirees. About $1,200 of each car GM sells goes to pay for health care alone. These health costs are the single largest cost issue that US automakers face.

Japanese automakers hire younger, non-unionized workers, right here in the US now to avoid tariffs. Now let's contrast the fate of the employees...

The benefits obligations of US automakers has become so unwieldy those 500,000 retirees are forced to take reductions in benefits anyway while those 300,000 current employees are losing their jobs because their employers can't stay afloat. That $1,200 cost on each car for GM is a sunk cost while Japanese companies could spend that same money on features to make their cars more appealing to consumers.

So American companies are dying out and their union employees are losing their jobs in large numbers over time. Japanese companies are thriving with a more productive non-union workforce and because of this success their employees have a kind of job security that will never be enjoyed by US producers again.

Japanese companies certainly did make better managerial decisions: they refused to let unions cripple them.

cheers you did a fine job googling the numbers, we appreciate it.

im sorry to say though that nothing you said proves that unions are solely responsible for destroying the companies. its kind of like after the fact info. was the real problem too many retirees or piss poor management. if they had kept making a good product they would have the monies to support a retiree program. try again.

you see you dont understand the sutblties of the situation, how complex it really is. your one tracked, most like due to the fact that youve never worked in a union or probably never worked at a union rep company at all. please do tell us your experience other than the google function, im interested.

the companies would most likely still be in the top three if it werent for thier managerial fuckups in the 70, 80 and 90. your arguement is negated kthxby.

 

[spongebob]

So even a lot of the "unions stopped worker exploitation" stuff is sheer mythology. Regardless, many of those protections are enshrined in the legislation today. The only thing unions have stopped is growth.
.

yea i talked with a union rep today and he was telling me how these so called legislated laws in place are rediculous to get any help with. he said the labor board has ruled against him everytime and he's appealed but the only problem is the appeallent court in washington has 5repub and like 2dems and no luck there. he said he's never had luck with most state or fed agencies. the EPA is the only one that will literally do something on a complaint. he said the repub labor board and the one that handles discrimination, you might as well forget it.

not saying he should have won im just giving examples here..

 

[spongebob]

The point you are overlooking is that absent unions, companies would always run better. This is a fact because employees do not acquire any special qualities when they are grouped into a collective that they would not acquire on their own.
.

like i said i would somewhat agree with this. but in some intenses, example, union hands have gone thru 4 or 5 yr program. classroom and OJT to be in the union. non union have not. so in my experience you see better qaulified hands with the union. i know this doesnt apply everywhere everytime but there are situation.

usually on construction in industrial plants, the non union company is full of absolute losers.

 

[Tiervexx]

As much as you fancy yourself a budding politican, you are gonna need to learn a bit of perspective before your political career picks up.

if you are gonna alledge that unions are violent then come with some solid proof...a fairly hefty allegation that you haven't even made, even with all your distrust. the dude must have some union experience to make such a claim, i wanna know what it is...

I have friends who have PERSONALLY been threatened by union members while they where on strike.

Oh, and Union violence is so goddamn well known I still can't believe you are just denieing it all together:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-316es.html

http://www.nilrr.org/9903a.htm

http://www.libertyhaven.com/politicsandcurrentevents/unionsandotherorganizations/victimunion.html

Next do you want me to prove that WWII really happened?

And for the record Gambino, it's not that I think i'm that smart, just that you are that dumb.

Oh yeah, and I've never even heard of the movie "Hoffa."

 

[Gambino]

I have friends who have PERSONALLY been threatened by union members while they where on strike.

Oh, and Union violence is so goddamn well known I still can't believe you are just denieing it all together:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-316es.html

http://www.nilrr.org/9903a.htm

http://www.libertyhaven.com/politicsandcurrentevents/unionsandotherorganizations/victimunion.html

Next do you want me to prove that WWII really happened?

And for the record Gambino, it's not that I think i'm that smart, just that you are that dumb.

Oh yeah, and I've never even hurd of the movie "Hoffa."

personally, i have never seen it...in your link the conviction rate is less than 3%...which makes me wonder if the majority of charges are trumped up.
real quick what was this local where your friends were threatened at? what industry? city?
If you would like to discuss ww2 topics i am more than interested, though ww1 I am more knowledgeable about.
I never claim to be a genius, and rightfully so i can see you have intelliegence...but i have a sinking feeling that you lack life experience due to your young age. maybe I'm wrong though
To summarize, I have never seen violence on a union work site, just as many coporate peeps have never seen the ceo swindle and defraud the company. Union violence, like white collar crime, is an aberration from the normal behaviour and conduct. It does not represent the majority of union members who are law abiding hard working peeps.
Surely you can at least understand my coming at you...as a union member i feel obligated to respond to your accusation

 

[spongebob]

I have friends who have PERSONALLY been threatened by union members while they where on strike.

Oh, and Union violence is so goddamn well known I still can't believe you are just denieing it all together:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-316es.html

http://www.nilrr.org/9903a.htm

http://www.libertyhaven.com/politicsandcurrentevents/unionsandotherorganizations/victimunion.html

Next do you want me to prove that WWII really happened?

And for the record Gambino, it's not that I think i'm that smart, just that you are that dumb.

Oh yeah, and I've never even heard of the movie "Hoffa."

im not argueing it never happen, shit i worked with some old timers that would tell me some crazy shit on thier strikes. but in the last 20yrs or so i havnt seen or heard for this area. but strikes and lockouts arent as frequent.

i know one time i was walking a picket on a lockout and the mail carrier coming in to the plant was scared or pissed off but didnt stop at the stop sign and wanted to run me over. i wish i would have gotton ahold of him. and we certainly werent threatening in any way. just walking the line.

 

[Spartacus]

how much are unions involved with the production of US military ordinance?

 

[Spartacus]

And so what is your solution? That would be just real cool to just tell all retirees to all of the sudden fuk off so GM can hire on even better CEO's. Fuk it, if were going down so are they and there won't be a winner.

toyota won

 

[Spartacus]

personally, i have never seen it...in your link the conviction rate is less than 3%...which makes me wonder if the majority of charges are trumped up.
real quick what was this local where your friends were threatened at? what industry? city?
If you would like to discuss ww2 topics i am more than interested, though ww1 I am more knowledgeable about.
I never claim to be a genius, and rightfully so i can see you have intelliegence...but i have a sinking feeling that you lack life experience due to your young age. maybe I'm wrong though
To summarize, I have never seen violence on a union work site, just as many coporate peeps have never seen the ceo swindle and defraud the company. Union violence, like white collar crime, is an aberration from the normal behaviour and conduct. It does not represent the majority of union members who are law abiding hard working peeps.
Surely you can at least understand my coming at you...as a union member i feel obligated to respond to your accusation

I think same goes for CEOS
for every mismanaged Enron et. al.
there are dozens and/or hundreds of publically traded companies being managed appropriately
the marketplace is unforgiving
blockbuster is fucked
as CEO 6 years ago what path would you have chosen?

 

[Gambino]

I think same goes for CEOS
for every mismanaged Enron et. al.
there are dozens and/or hundreds of publically traded companies being managed appropriately
the marketplace is unforgiving
blockbuster is fucked
as CEO 6 years ago what path would you have chosen?

how is blockbuster fucked?

 

[spongebob]

I think same goes for CEOS
for every mismanaged Enron et. al.
there are dozens and/or hundreds of publically traded companies being managed appropriately
the marketplace is unforgiving
blockbuster is fucked
as CEO 6 years ago what path would you have chosen?

what thier trying to do now.

im going with netflix.

 

[Spartacus]

how is blockbuster fucked?

you tell me
hazard a guess

 

[PIGEON-RAT]

For one thing, they don't have to worry about employee or retiree health benefits, because Japan has socialized medicine.

I'm talking about factories in the US owned by Japanese companies.

 

[PIGEON-RAT]

cheers you did a fine job googling the numbers, we appreciate it.

im sorry to say though that nothing you said proves that unions are solely responsible for destroying the companies. its kind of like after the fact info. was the real problem too many retirees or piss poor management. if they had kept making a good product they would have the monies to support a retiree program. try again.

you see you dont understand the sutblties of the situation, how complex it really is. your one tracked, most like due to the fact that youve never worked in a union or probably never worked at a union rep company at all. please do tell us your experience other than the google function, im interested.

the companies would most likely still be in the top three if it werent for thier managerial fuckups in the 70, 80 and 90. your arguement is negated kthxby.

I actually did not use google. Like I said, I've done intensive research and study in economics and I've spent the last year studying international trade at a top 10 university. I have a very firm understanding of the way labor standards and unions affect international competitiveness.

You're telling me I don't understand the subtleties? You don't even know what the subtleties are, or are able to spell it for that matter. I'm not going to bother arguing with you because you know little about the situation all while claiming to be much better informed than me, yet this is my specialty.

Googling might help you formulate a cohesive argument, but your posts lack any real world data to back up your assertions. Nice try.

 

[Spartacus]

I'm talking about factories in the US owned by Japanese companies.

Korean too
the Chinese are coming next

 

[Spartacus]

thank good for the unions which will save good ole american boys and girls from jobs

 

[milo hobgoblin]

fuck em.. bullshit gangsters truckers unions has fucked this country long enough.

Get those fuckers OFF the highways during rush hour in ALL major cities.

 

[Gambino]

fuck em.. bullshit gangsters truckers unions has fucked this country long enough.

Get those fuckers OFF the highways during rush hour in ALL major cities.

lol
def. the union's fault that the highways are packed with trucks during rush hour

 

[spongebob]

I actually did not use google. Like I said, I've done intensive research and study in economics and I've spent the last year studying international trade at a top 10 university. I have a very firm understanding of the way labor standards and unions affect international competitiveness.

You're telling me I don't understand the subtleties? You don't even know what the subtleties are, or are able to spell it for that matter. I'm not going to bother arguing with you because you know little about the situation all while claiming to be much better informed than me, yet this is my specialty.

Googling might help you formulate a cohesive argument, but your posts lack any real world data to back up your assertions. Nice try.

lol at real world data. you never answered my question about your real world experience besides your full booksatchle.

i wouldnt say im more informed than you but i will tell you where i draw my knowledge from.

i live in a heavy petrochemical town. split down the middle of non union and union. everyone i list here works in the same field but different plants.
ive worked union for 6yrs.
my father worked union his whole career.
my brother has worked non union for 15yrs
my three uncles worked 35yrs each, union and non union between them.
my numerous cousins work both union and non union.

so yes, what i speak of is from my experiences. im mean the subtleties(is that better) of everyday working relationships between companies and workers, and all that that encompasses, both non union and union.

nothing you've studied indicates to me that you know the subtleties im talking about. i dont think ive strongly disagreed with the cost differences between union and non union. although i do believe there are subtleties there that a case can be made in favor of using union, maybe not the strongest case but a case nontheless. we havent touched on that and im not going to.

only a complete moron would not know that labor standards and unions affect international competetiveness. i mean really, im laughing right now. oh and guess what, next time you go to class tell everyone that environmental laws also affect international competetiveness. or is that second year material.

 

[Tiervexx]

personally, i have never seen it...in your link the conviction rate is less than 3%...which makes me wonder if the majority of charges are trumped up.
real quick what was this local where your friends were threatened at? what industry? city?
If you would like to discuss ww2 topics i am more than interested, though ww1 I am more knowledgeable about.
I never claim to be a genius, and rightfully so i can see you have intelliegence...but i have a sinking feeling that you lack life experience due to your young age. maybe I'm wrong though
To summarize, I have never seen violence on a union work site, just as many coporate peeps have never seen the ceo swindle and defraud the company. Union violence, like white collar crime, is an aberration from the normal behaviour and conduct. It does not represent the majority of union members who are law abiding hard working peeps.
Surely you can at least understand my coming at you...as a union member i feel obligated to respond to your accusation

I will admit that I was a little harsh on you earlier, but I'm sure you can understand why I was offended by the movie comment when people I know have actually been threatened by unions. You also have to keep in mind that the conviction rate is going to be artificially low since many of the policemen who are supposed to watch for that shit are unionized.

To be more specific they where both grocery store strikes and I can't remember the name of the union off the top of my head.

I agree that violence with unions has defiantly declined in the last 20 years or so but, using the threat of violence based on what they have done in the past is not exactly civilized behavior either.



It’s like what Razorguns said, of course employers will always feel they pay too much and of course employees will always think they are getting ripped off but the two meet at market value.

Market value is beautiful in that it is beyond the control of any one group. If employees decide that they REALLY don’t like market value and want to go on strikes and negotiate with employers then fine, but using violence, state action, or even the threat of violence makes you no better than a mugger no matter how “unfair” you think it is.