Supinated vs. Pronated & Hooked vs. Mixed

[Anthrax Invasion]

Okay, I have two issues here.

1) Supinated (underhand) or pronated (overhand) pulling movements. The arguements behind underhand, which I typically support, is that you can better recruit the biceps. The exercises of concern here are rows and pull- and chin-ups.

Now, pullup is typically used to describe a pronated pull, chinups a supinated. Most can do more supinated. Why? 'cause the biceps are better utilized by giving a better line of pull. The back is recruited the same, unless you really want to get technical. In general, it leads to more weight used, more muscles recruited, which means better growth.

Rows, an underhand grip with the elbows coming along your sides allows a straight pull for biceps, no torque on the wrists (wrists won't have any torque if they're neutral with the forearms), and more weight lifted overall.

So what's the point in people using an overhand/pronated grip? The only "reasonable" arguement I hear against an underhand grip would be the risk of straining/tearing the bicep. This would probably be due to an extreme stretch on the muscle under load, hence the reason Dorian tore his. He used to do his rows at a high angle, so the bar would hang. Most here deload the bar on the floor between reps, which should neglect said risk of bicep tears. Chinups - just make sure you don't hang all the way down and let all the ligaments bear the load - keep constant muscular tension.

2) The abose discussion of bicep tears brings me to my second rant. Hooked grips vs. mixed grips vs. clean (regular, double pronated grip) grip. Now, Mark Rippetoe recommends his lifters use a mixed grip only when they need it. This makes a lot of sense to me. The idea is to use a clean grip for the sets you can, so you train your grip. Then, of course, don't let grip limit your deadlift poundages and back training, so use a mixed grip.

Now, there are a lot of little questions in here:

2a) Can a hook grip still build grip strength? If so, comparable to a clean grip?

I'd imagine not, since the point of it is to let your thumb act as a hook and avoid the lack of grip strength in a lot of trainees pulling big weights.

A mixed grip, from what I see, can be dangerous 'cause it puts the bicep under a heavy load, statically. Of course, many used a mixed grip without problems.

The mixed grip also seems to place excess torque on the back. Something, doesn't feel right when I use one. Thing is, I can lift more weight this way. I can also lift more weight with a hook grip.

2b) Will a mixed grip develop the back muscles unsymmetrically, if you don't switch which hand is the supinated one once in awhile?

2c) Would it not be better to use a pair of straps or hook grip, due to the risk bicep tear, unsymmetrical development, or back torque with deadlifts?

To me, the ideal answer would be to use a clean grip to develop grip strength. Once your work sets become too heavy, switch to a hook grip or straps. A mixed grip just doesn't seem ideal. Of course, I'm not speaking for powerlifters here. More from either an olylifter or general athlete standpoint.

Well, all comments/questions are welcome. No complaints. I don't care enough.

 

[super_rice]

To answer one of your questions with a bit of "gym science," in my experience, the hook grip has allowed me to hold much, much more weight, but my conventional double underhand grip has become a joke. It could be just a psychological thing, as I'm not longer used to the regular grip. I can't hold more than 315 without it rolling out of my hands.

 

[AEKDB]

Wow, that is more than I have ever thought about the topic.

I would guess that for oly and p-lifters the best grip is the one you will use in competition. I suspect Oly coaches have lifters using the hook grip from day one. Grip strength should improve (this includes hook grip strength) as long as straps are not used.

Personally I use a mixed grip for deads, clean grip for cleans, and either over or under for bent rows. In the beginning I would switch the hands on deads but gave that up years ago. I have never noticed one arm being bigger than the other.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Double underhand? You mean double overhand, right?

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Not one arm being bigger, but have someone check your back for any imbalances, if there are any. Some people, from what I have heard, end up with one trap being larger than the other.

 

[blut wump]

Interesting, I made a similar observation about the worth of the hook grip for developing actual gripping power in Guinness5.0's thread. The hook grip seems to be something very particular to the bars we tend to use. Then again, it seems that the strongmen struggle a lot with 2" bars regardless. It's informative to note that Super Rice has seen his clean grip power decline.

On deads I lift double-overhand almost all the time. At the very top end, the mixed grip will give me a lot extra. I might try to find out just how much it gives on some rack pulls but my double-overhand is enough for anything I can currently get from the floor.

I've never tried the rows supinated but as I sit here imagining the movement it seems to me that the arms could become a weak link in a movement which heavily involves the large back muscles. The row is dissimilar to the dead in that the arms are, ideally, little more than ropes and hooks in the dead. Biceps tears tend to happen when lifters try to activate them under inappropriate loads.

I'd like to hear from anyone who does row supinated. What loads they tend to use in relation to their bench and to their pronated rows.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

The back muscles are still utilized just as much. In fact, a supinated grip would recruit the lats more. They're primary functions are shoulder extension, and humeral adduction. The supinated grip emphasizes the shoulder extension.

The arms should add more to the overall equation. More muscles used allows you to utilize more strength. Your back will work just as hard (if not harder), but with the addition of the biceps in an optimal line of pull, you'll find you can lift more weight.

Activating any muscle under and inappropriate load is grounds for a tear or injury of some kind. That much should be common knowledge.

 

[blut wump]

I can see that I'm going to have to experience this movement in the gym. It might make for an interesting change when my row next stalls.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Yeah, give it a shot and PM the results back to me. I may miss it in a casual thread, so let me know what happens. Love to hear real time results, especially if their positive, and due to my influence.

 

[Protobuilder]

One difference between pronated & supinated grip on BB rows -- you pretty much have to row into your lower/mid abs using supinated grip. So, if you row a little higher w/ pronated grip, (into your lower chest area maybe) you're using a little bit of diff't musculature. Another thing I've noticed -- most people seem to use a wider grip when going pronated and a narrow grip going supinated. The difference is, the narrower supine grip makes the elbows pull in a line closer to the body (check out the elbow position).