Success coupling olympic lifts in a 5x5 scheme

[super_rice]

Hey guys,

Don't know if anyone still remembers me. Anyway, I'm enjoying my time here in university (McMaster Honours Health Science ), and still training hard. Body weight has gone down and stabilized at about 178 pounds, ~81kilos, and strength has improved - good things.

I've been fooling with olympic lifts for a while now and have never incorporated them in fully until now. I have access to a pretty good platform, a set of bumpers, and one bar that is actually an olympic bar no one knows about (poor thing is all rusty and these punks like to curl/bench with it).

It's been about a month since I started olympic lifting consistently, and I've power snatched 80kilos with ease. Really the only problems I've had are a bit of tendonitis in my wrist (for simplicity's sake, I've found it useful to call it wrist-itis ) and the damn skin on my hands not staying on my hand!

I use a hook grip now (basically for everything, it really is night and day... I've fallen to the darkside) so my thumbs are pretty nasty looking. It's okay, the grip is good hehe.

So to the point: I noticed that a lot of poeple are having problems substituting lifts into the 5x5 and I'm here to say, as long as your work capacity is good, it can be done! At current time, I'm avoiding high rep deadlifts (clean pulls now...) so I can get more work into the lifts. I was able to do a 5x5 315 clean pull a month or so ago, so I don't think at this time it is necessary to get into a frenzy for pulling strength.

Right now as it looks, the only part of the 5x5 that still exists here are the squats. Everything else has been modified but only in sets/reps so accomadate my work capacity. I add in extra workouts whenever I can, in the form of some front/back squats, and technique work with sub 40kilos.

1:
8x3 Snatches + 3 singles
2x5 Bench Press
5x5 Full Backsquat
5x5 Snatch Pulls

2:
10x2 C&J + 4-5 singles
8x3 Front squats (5x5 just doesn't agree with me with these after the C&J)
8x3 Clean pulls
5x5 Weighted Chins

3:
10x2 Snatches + 5 singles
5x5 Bench Press
1x5 Full Backsquat
2x5 Snatch Pulls

My bench has really suffered lately, but I don't really give a crap as I'm snatching/cleaning&jerking/squatting more than ever.

Suggestions, comments welcome!

 

[musketeer]

I do oly movements in a 5x5 format as such:

Mon[U/]
Snatches
Squats
Bent Row
Weighted Dips

Wed
Overhead/split/front Squat
Bench Press
Chinup
Deadlift

Fri
Clean Jerk
Squat
Pullover
Bent Row

 

[super_rice]

Thanks for the input. How is lifting going?

I'm sorry, I forgot to include the details regarding deloading. I deload from that in about a week and a half and move into singles on snatches and cleans, 3x3/1x3 in backsquats, 3x3 clean pulls, 3x3 chins, 3x3 front squats, and 2x3/3x3 bench press

 

[musketeer]

Only been back in training for two weeks and I'm really fried!

Already looking bigger and gained about 5lbs, but then, you take 16 of relative inactivty and then start bombing your body again and it's going to happen really...

Seriuosly though, I love it! The oly lifts and assitance movements like the overhead squats and cleans before the front squats are really changing my body's feel. Knees are sore from all of the the squatting, but then that's why god invented Motrin IB!

 

[super_rice]

It's good to be young, I've only really gotten inflammation in my knees once in the form of a tiny bit of stiffness and discomfort. This was at the end of my first (and last for a while) Stephan Korte, and at the end of my second 5x5 that coincided with my throwing season. Lay off the painkillers/anti-inflammatories! Your ability to handle the volume/frequency will improve for sure. Just keep squatting!

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Wow, I was just wondering the other day whether or not you were still alive. Good to see you back. I incorporated olylifts recently myself and found them to be incredibly entertaining. It's great feeling explosive. I don't think I'm ever going to pull slowly again.

What kind've numbers are you putting up all around? What are your goals?

And, what the hell - how's college!?

By the by, Glenn Pendlay posts here now, so maybe he can chime in on your split. It looks good to me, but who am I to critique an olylifting program?

 

[super_rice]

Yeah I noticed that.

I'm a bit of a geek on the side... star trek, stem cells, that kind of thing

At this point my backsquat is hovering around 355, deadlift 375? (guesstimate), bench haha.... 255?

I have not maxed out on C&J or the snatch yet. My technique is different almost everytime I'm in there. At this time, I'm having problems being comfortable catching bigger weights in the full squat, even though my balance is pretty damn good. I just can't seem to get in there.

And I can't front squat to save my life. I tried to take that exercise for 5x5 for a while, but it just does not work after being fatigued from the other lifts, which is why I'm doing it in 8x3 fashion. The most I've ever taken for a front squat 5x5 was 205, and I nearly died.

It feels really lame when I can backsquat 275 for 5x5.

 

[blut wump]

Great to see you back and at a svelte 392 lbs bodyweight.

Who cares about bench pressing when you're doing overhead work. For real-world strength your doing by far the better of the two. One might even argue that you're wasting recovery ability on the benching.

 

[super_rice]

Great to see you back and at a svelte 392 lbs bodyweight.

Who cares about bench pressing when you're doing overhead work. For real-world strength your doing by far the better of the two. One might even argue that you're wasting recovery ability on the benching.

ahah thanks for pointing that big typo out.

i'm keeping the benching in there pretty much now as a vanity / for the hell of it thing... i haven't really found benching to affect my ability to recover - rather, it is part of the many indicators of my state of fatigue. anyway, the gf would probably prefer some curls too but curls are for losers

my jerk is very weak at the moment. i've found that the split jerk for me takes waaaay more energy to perform and is quite a bit less powerful than my squat jerk. or maybe i'm just dipping lower in receiving a squat jerk, as i'm pressing out quite a few split jerks near the end of the workout.

 

[d-dub]

Its good to hear an update super rice. After reading this thread and ccj's updates i am ready to train right now. haha. good stuff.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

my jerk is very weak at the moment.

That's what a girlfriend is for.

Why would she like you to add in some curls?

 

[super_rice]

Lets just say my arm is 99/100 tricep. Plus, who wants to hang around in the gym and do friggen curls after cleans, fronts squats and deadlifts?

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Yeah, isolation shit pisses me off. Do your chinups with a supinated, close-in grip. The biceps should get enough stimulation from that. Just make sure they have a good line of pull.

I can see you're starting to train more and more like an olylifter on the whole. What are your training goals? You know, in the long term?

 

[super_rice]

Well I've always been meaning to get into oly lifting, I don't really like powerlifting in general - it's more of a brute thing, and weightlifting is so much more athletic and has a large skill element.

I do my chin ups like the way you said, that's pretty much all the bicep work I get.

I don't plan on dropping bench presses - at least not for a while. They are suffering but I don't really care anymore. Short term I'd like to increase my work capacity for oly lifts, as I'm not used to volume in this form. It's very hard to stay explosive and snappy at the end of 25 reps. I also need to suck it up and get my front squats up. How can I backsquat mid 300s and have trouble with 205 on the front?

Hopefully I will be able to snatch 100 kilos, and c&j 120.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Some solid goals you've got there. You're ambitious enough - I don't doubt you'll manage it.

The only bicep work I get is chinups and rows. Then again, my rows have suffered due to my back problem anyway. Fucking UPS...

If you're concerned about vanity, sub in dips for bench presses. Honestly, I think they'll do the job much better. Although, OHPing stimulates the chest fairly well. Dips + OHP should be fine. Bench doesn't transfer over athletically to anything. Even in terms of punching, you're better off with incline bench presses. Not that punching hard is a goal of your's, just pointing out the prime example that came to mind.

You probably just need to adjust to front squatting more. Try doing 'em fresh one day, not after anything else. Front squatting might be a bit tiring after C&Jing heavy.

Oh, and I agree - PLing is more of a brute thing. Kudos to those who do it (fucking Benedikt with his 970 lb. deadlift - that's insane) - but it's not for me. I'd prefer explosiveness and athleticism on the whole - balance/agility/flexibility of a gymnast and power/development of an olylifter (with some vain bodybuilder chest/arm stuff thrown in).

 

[Madcow2]

Plus, who wants to hang around in the gym and do friggen curls after cleans, fronts squats and deadlifts?

I love the guys with dedicated "arm days" in their splits. I wouldn't even get out of bed, no less go to a gym for arms.

Great to see you again, BTW. Glad things are good with school and training. Your front squat will improve. If you really want it up, lower volume on the backsquats to some basic maintenance and start prioritzing the front squat. All else held equal you can handle more volume in the front than the back just due to workload so hit it 2x or even 3x a week and lay out a progression over time. If you've never really focused on it, you might even get it to move linearly for a number of weeks before stalling out. Since getting into OL is something that's important to you, it might be a good idea to address it and get comfortable in the bottom position to receive the clean. Hopefully you own Dreschler's Encyclopedia by now. Lots of stuff in there on getting under the bar and improving that area. One alternative is to almost do a shrug from a high hang and get good at blasting down under the bar without a ton of weight on it (thinking you can clean more than you want to jump under right now). Shrug to extension, drop and pull yourself under. Glenn is really the man to talk to on this - actually, Glenn is really the man to talk to on just about any related topic to weighttraining or OL that you can think of.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

actually, Glenn is really the man to talk to on just about any related topic to weighttraining or OL that you can think of.

Some serious ass-kissing going on, here...

I kid, I kid. I'd have to agree with Madcow on this, in regards to the olylifting. Glenn obviously knows his stuff. Still, there are others who would be willing to help, and would be good to talk to. Go bug CJJ.

 

[BiggT]

Good to see you're posting again and that school and training are going well. The olympic lifts can be very rewarding. Madcow's advice for getting under the bar is definitely something to drill yourself on.....I have used drills like that at times, especially when I first started olympic lifting, I had a serious mental block about getting under a heavy clean, and I KNEW it was in my head......it would be a weight I could front squat all day long, and I could easily pull it plenty high enough, I was just intimidated by dropping under it.

BTW.....it is great to see a younger college kid who knows biceps training is gay, lol. Good luck with your workouts.

Also, are you using the hook grip?? If you're not, start your next workout. it's the best advice I can give to anyone getting going on the O-lifts, use the hook from day 1 because there will come a point where it is necessary to continue progress, and you'll thank yourself for doing it now, rather than when the poundages get really heavy.

 

[super_rice]

Guys, thanks for the replies.

Madcow:
I love backsquatting so much that I don't know if I want to drop them. I will probably just have front squatting in my extra workouts: ie: snatches, light clean&jerks, front squats as one session.
A problem I really want to address right now is blending together the 2nd pull and the catch. I started the lifts with drill and emphasizing the catch, without really working on the second pull. I got to snatching about 60 kilos with really shooting into the hole to catch the weight, and decided that I needed to work on my 2nd pull. Now that I am concentrating on the 2nd pull, I find that I almost "forget" to drop in there to catch it. Most times I end up powersnatching the weight, so maybe as the weight gets heavier and I must drop in I will? I have no problems with the bottom of the snatch.
Same goes for the clean catch... (I was going to say snatch catch, but that might be too much for one post )

Anthrax:
Has CCJ stopped oly lifting? Weight loss is a killer I tells ya!

Biggt:
I can't use anything other than hook grip now It friggen rocks, just that my thumbs look like they got burned or something.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

I haven't seen him snatch, but I saw some power cleans fairly recently, I believe. His goal is increasing his vert right now (thus the shedding bodyfat) - that's what I remember, anyway.

Hook grip from day one with olylifts here - love it. I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[coolcolj]

damn dude - are you jumping higher?

 

[super_rice]

damn dude - are you jumping higher?

YES!!! I am!

I have found that usually, I can't jump very well when lifting heavy, and my jumping ability only goes up during volleyball season when I'm training it and doing plyo constantly. At the moment, I don't seem to require much of a dip and I'm really getting up there!

However, the landing is another issue... need depth jumps!

 

[coolcolj]

altitude drops would work better

 

[glennpendlay]

if i were you, given the info you have posted about your technical problems on the lifts... heres a rough outline of what i would be doing.

first thing on all 3 workouts, id be doing somewhere around 10 singles on the snatch, followed by 10 singles on the clean and jerk. dont concentrate on any one portion of the lift, just try to make them nice smooth, good lifts. use a weight for both that allows you to make at least 8 or 9 out of the 10 lifts with good form. running around the platform chasing down an unbalanced snatch, or pressing out a jerk doesnt count as good form.

then, id be doing front squat twice a week and back squat once. try to get comfortable in the bottom of the front squat, keep your back upright, and elbows up. you might do one of the FS workouts a little lighter, and pause at the bottom of each rep to really get the feel of the bottom, trying t o really sink down into the hole while keeping the back upright and elbows up.

id also be incorperating overhead squats, even if you just do them light (sometimes i have people do these light FIRST in the workout, as kind of a warmup for snatches)

THEN, i would stop doing pulls, untill your form on the lifts is pretty consistent. I would also NOT do ANY power versions of the lifts, just dont allow yourself to ever do it. if you want to learn to do the full lifts, the way to do it is to just do it, use a weight that allows going under it, and dont do the power versions until your form on the full lifts is consistent and good.

then, the other strength exercises that you are doing can also be done, but after snatch, clean and jerk, and squatting or front squatting.

thats what id do. a workout would consist of snatch, clean and jerk, squatting, then maybe 1-3 other strength exercises at the end. the overhead squats could be done light before snatches as warmup, or could be done heavier at the end as one of your strength exercises, whichever works better for you.

altitude drops would work better

 

[super_rice]

Thank you for your input CCJ and Glenn.

More questions:

On loading:
I am planning to finish the current program I laid out to the best of my ability and then build up a four day layout based on glenn's recommendations. Only doing 10 singles would allow me to lift much better as the quality of the lifts would improve, as my form goes to shit by single #25, for example. I plan to add in the extra day and spread out the volume a bit more to get more practice in, and also, as there is generally less full lifts performed in one session, I can afford to increase frequency - I think.

Also, I want to keep the full oly lifts the same through say, 8 weeks, and then control the bulk of the loading through squats and pulls. Is there a problem with this? Ie: linear progression with oly lifts, but as overreaching approaches in a higher rep loading period with backsquats and frontsquats, deload volume in those exercises to recover. The full oly lifts take a slow linear progression the whole time, as I don't think they will affect my recovery much if I take them like that.

On my poor thumb:
I LOVE the hook grip, to the extent that I haven't used a conventional overhand grip in a pull in over 2 months. I've gotten to the point where it is night/day and I can't stop using the hook grip. It doesn't hurt I love it...

The thing is - my thumbs look like they have been burned, the tips are dark, maybe the reminants of lots of broken blood vessels? Is this normal, should I be concerned? I mean, if i loose my thumbs, I won't be hook gripping anything

if i were you, given the info you have posted about your technical problems on the lifts... heres a rough outline of what i would be doing.

first thing on all 3 workouts, id be doing somewhere around 10 singles on the snatch, followed by 10 singles on the clean and jerk. dont concentrate on any one portion of the lift, just try to make them nice smooth, good lifts. use a weight for both that allows you to make at least 8 or 9 out of the 10 lifts with good form. running around the platform chasing down an unbalanced snatch, or pressing out a jerk doesnt count as good form.

then, id be doing front squat twice a week and back squat once. try to get comfortable in the bottom of the front squat, keep your back upright, and elbows up. you might do one of the FS workouts a little lighter, and pause at the bottom of each rep to really get the feel of the bottom, trying t o really sink down into the hole while keeping the back upright and elbows up.

id also be incorperating overhead squats, even if you just do them light (sometimes i have people do these light FIRST in the workout, as kind of a warmup for snatches)

THEN, i would stop doing pulls, untill your form on the lifts is pretty consistent. I would also NOT do ANY power versions of the lifts, just dont allow yourself to ever do it. if you want to learn to do the full lifts, the way to do it is to just do it, use a weight that allows going under it, and dont do the power versions until your form on the full lifts is consistent and good.

then, the other strength exercises that you are doing can also be done, but after snatch, clean and jerk, and squatting or front squatting.

thats what id do. a workout would consist of snatch, clean and jerk, squatting, then maybe 1-3 other strength exercises at the end. the overhead squats could be done light before snatches as warmup, or could be done heavier at the end as one of your strength exercises, whichever works better for you.

 

[nelmsjer]

I love the guys with dedicated "arm days" in their splits. I wouldn't even get out of bed, no less go to a gym for arms.

Freaking classic! First the 5x5 endeavor, and now a great quote. Karma is your friend.

 

[coolcolj]

About the thumbs It should be ok

I don't even notice mine anymore, although mine never did go black

only high rep snatch grip deads really kill my thumbs now from the twisting and torque of teh crappy bent bars at my gym

 

[Shepherd4]

I can't use anything other than hook grip now It friggen rocks, just that my thumbs look like they got burned or something.

Tape your thumbs. It will cut down the wear and tear tremendously. They'll still get squished with every pull (which you'll get used to), but at least the knurling won't keep shredding them down to the bone.

mpc

"Think of Tiger Woods out there hitting a bucket of balls. He's not swinging the 5-iron to get stronger -- he's swinging it to hone the groove. Hone the groove."

 

[super_rice]

Hey. A little update on those tumbs. I've found success with taping them only if I do snatch pulls, as that is when they get really torn up (at least I know I'm pulling hard enough).

At current time, I only tape my wrists, the thumb taping was actually causing severe restriction of blood flow to my thumbs during deads. The blackening has since disapated a lot.

 

[Shepherd4]

the thumb taping was actually causing severe restriction of blood flow to my thumbs during deads. The blackening has since disapated a lot.

Try taping them more loosely -- just tight enough to wrap your thumbs. Don't tape them like you'd tape a wrist or ankle. That should help with the blood flow problem.

mpc