Studies on prohormones vs steroids....side effects

[hehateme000]

I cant find any studies that show that prohormones are worse than steroids. I know all prohormones are different altered chemicals so we dont know much about them, but what makes them so worse?

The fact that you can get bigger using steroids and that its a waste of money is not a side effect.

I even know of some to say they are not 17methyl-alkyalated.

 

[GUARDIAN]

pro-hormones are not required to go through clinical trials so u wont find any per se. though u may find a few on some of the compounds in them somewhere.

 

[swole]

i don't need to read any study

yes they are anabolic in nature and "work"

but they put your body under more stress than their injectable second cousins

resulting in higher liver values, fatigue, acne, etc

granted you might see some of these side effects on injectables, but they will be more pronounced with prohormones

that's pretty much it, can't wait for the steroid/prohormone argument to begin

 

[hehateme000]

ok so if one takes a prohormone and gains 15lbs, and ends up keeping ten, so say 175 to 185, and a year later hes still 185..is that considered natty?

 

[Nelson Montana]

First of all, there's no way you're going to gain 15 pounds on PH's and keep them.

Secondly, the molecular structure must be changed in order to pass under the wire of being "a drug." So even if they are effective (which I question) doesn't it make sense that an "altered" molecular structure isn't as effective than the original one? If PH's were any good, the pharmaceutical companies would sell them and they don't bother.

As for the side effects, it's common knowledge. Lots of gyno and libido issues -- even with the ones which claim not to aromatize. All in all, they kinda suck.

 

[eddymerckx]

you look at the net weight of the 17a molecule compared to that of gear and the prohormone has a much greater percentage as a percentage of total weight. thus more hepatoxic

 

[needtogetaas]

i don't need to read any study

yes they are anabolic in nature and "work"

but they put your body under more stress than their injectable second cousins

resulting in higher liver values, fatigue, acne, etc

granted you might see some of these side effects on injectables, but they will be more pronounced with prohormones

that's pretty much it, can't wait for the steroid/prohormone argument to begin

to each his own. I have used them and liked them.

 

[hehateme000]

First of all, there's no way you're going to gain 15 pounds on PH's and keep them.

Secondly, the molecular structure must be changed in order to pass under the wire of being "a drug." So even if they are effective (which I question) doesn't it make sense that an "altered" molecular structure isn't as effective than the original one? If PH's were any good, the pharmaceutical companies would sell them and they don't bother.

As for the side effects, it's common knowledge. Lots of gyno and libido issues -- even with the ones which claim not to aromatize. All in all, they kinda suck.

Americell-labs TREN Xtreme. Went from 171 to 188. right before boot camp but 3 weeks after discontinuing i was 185 so yea 14 lbs.

 

[eddymerckx]

Americell-labs TREN Xtreme. Went from 171 to 188. right before boot camp but 3 weeks after discontinuing i was 185 so yea 14 lbs.

yea but you took it for 300 weeks

 

[hehateme000]

300? try a month but i stacked it with their other product. Its one molecule away from being a steroid, so i think its the best prohormone you can get for 60 bucks. I love Americell but i cant wait till im 21 for that test/dbol/deca cycle

 

[needtogetaas]

If you want to try pro's then try them. Have everything you need on hand like you would a cycle ai's pct all that shit. If they work for you great if they don't great. Its all about you. Keep a log of our life when it comes to every part of bbing so you can revert back to it when you need it. Pro hormones are even more person to person then aas is.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Secondly, the molecular structure must be changed in order to pass under the wire of being "a drug." So even if they are effective (which I question) doesn't it make sense that an "altered" molecular structure isn't as effective than the original one? If PH's were any good, the pharmaceutical companies would sell them and they don't bother.

As for the side effects, it's common knowledge. Lots of gyno and libido issues -- even with the ones which claim not to aromatize. All in all, they kinda suck.

Nelson,

These designer steroids are not "chemically altered" so they aren't drugs. They are already drugs - already anabolic/androgenic steroids. They were just never submitted to FDA for review, so the government doesn't officially recognize them as steroids. In these eyes of the law these are all just "unknown new drugs".

I don't make any money on designers steroids at all, and I have no reson to try and mislead you.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

you look at the net weight of the 17a molecule compared to that of gear and the prohormone has a much greater percentage as a percentage of total weight. thus more hepatoxic

Sorry to correct you, but that isn't true at all. These compounds are no more C17aa by weight than dianabol, winstrol, etc etc.

Also, the relative weight of the C17aa compared to the base structure (they should all be extremely similar anyway) is irrelevant to the hepatotoxic nature of a steroid. This is determined by a combination of 1) its resistance to breakdown and 2) Its overall anabolic/androgenic potency.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Maybe I should put it another way:

AAS: Any Steroid hormone that has primarily anabolic or androgenic activity. Total # in thousands.

Pharmaceutical AAS: AAS that have been submitted to the FDA for review & were approved. Total # in dozens.

Designer steroids: Steroids that were researched but never submitted to the FDA for review. Usually unknown to urine testing protocols. Total # in thousands.

Prohormones: In 2008 this means Designer Steroids that were distributed through health food stores under the guise of being "Dietary Supplements".


Politicians and bureaucrats lack the understanding to identify steroids that fall outside the "Pharmaceutical AAS" category.

Don't think like a bureaucrat or politician!

 

[DJLegacy2k1]

Thank God, finally a break down of what PHs are that people should be able to understand.

-Legacy

 

[fromkrypton]

Mr. Llewellyn, thanks for posting here at EF. It's great to have someone as knowledgeable as yourself speak about prohormones.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nelson,

These designer steroids are not "chemically altered" so they aren't drugs. They are already drugs - already anabolic/androgenic steroids. They were just never submitted to FDA for review, so the government doesn't officially recognize them as steroids. In these eyes of the law these are all just "unknown new drugs".

I don't make any money on designers steroids at all, and I have no reson to try and mislead you.

I understand all that, I just think that people sometimes underestimate the FDA and the AMA. It's not like some supplement company found a BETTER drug. I have to believe they're inferior (which has been the case with the first four hundred versions of PH's).

If these designer steroids were superior, the Pharm companies would most likely be all over them because it'd be a way to sell and control legal steroids.

Nutrients and herbs can not be patented so that's a separate story.

 

[fromkrypton]

I'm not anti-PH by any means, as I think some can actually be effective if used prudently with proper PCT, but what disturbs me are the companies selling cool-sounding products which are combination of two or more prohormones. I've had guys at the gym tell me stuff they're taking, and they have no idea what it actually contains. I ask what they are taking for PCT, and they'll say something like Novadex and milk thistle. Most don't realize they are actually taking steroids.

 

[DJLegacy2k1]

Right, then the problem isnt the products, its the companies taking advantage of stupid people. Real AAS has scammers and so does supplements, hell we all know how great MuscleTech is lol.

Certain people here will never concede that PHs are just unlisted AAS. Then again back in the day TEST was a LAST RESORT AAS and now its FIRST CYCLE stand-alone lol. So I guess times change, we will see where things wind up.

-Legacy

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

I have to believe they're inferior (which has been the case with the first four hundred versions of PH's).

If these designer steroids were superior, the Pharm companies would most likely be all over them because it'd be a way to sell and control legal steroids.

All these steroids are molecules of Testosterone, DHT, or nandrolone tweaked with different modifications (dehydrogenation, methylation, ring attachments, esters, etc) to alter their properties. Pharmaceutical or designer, all the same. They made thousands of steroids in the lab during the 50's and 60's, but you can't market a thousand drugs for the same narrow set of clinical uses. Yes, many weak and ineffective steroids were left by the wayside. But this is a business, not a government run contest, and many many very potent steroids were not developed as drugs too.

The first generation prohormones (andro) are very different. These were inactive steroids that the body needed to convert back to steroids. Forget them - different time, different world.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

It's not like some supplement company found a BETTER drug.

Actually, all of these designers were first synthesized by scientists working for drug companies. These current supplement companies only found the old research and revived these compounds.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Right, then the problem isnt the products, its the companies taking advantage of stupid people. Real AAS has scammers and so does supplements, hell we all know how great MuscleTech is lol.

Certain people here will never concede that PHs are just unlisted AAS. Then again back in the day TEST was a LAST RESORT AAS and now its FIRST CYCLE stand-alone lol. So I guess times change, we will see where things wind up.

-Legacy

You're right about the test but I must say, I believe the current thinking is wrong. Test is the most recommended for a first cycle and I think it's the worst choice. But that's just trend and fashion. That's irrelevant when assessing the efficacy of one product or another.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I don;t give a rats ass how a PH is listed or what name it's given. The bottom line is how well it works compared to the sides effects. So far, I'm not impressed.

 

[needtogetaas]

O Billy bob your so smart.

 

[DJLegacy2k1]

You're right about the test but I must say, I believe the current thinking is wrong. Test is the most recommended for a first cycle and I think it's the worst choice. But that's just trend and fashion. That's irrelevant when assessing the efficacy of one product or another.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I don;t give a rats ass how a PH is listed or what name it's given. The bottom line is how well it works compared to the sides effects. So far, I'm not impressed.

Understandable and justified. As Ive always said, I think people need to bash the products that dont work and give a little credit when a product works. I have read great things about Havoc and very little negative, but even when hundreds of logs are posted about the good results and little sides, still no one will concede that maybe its not THAT bad.

My thing is, I dont think we should be bashing PHs in general but like all things, bash the scammers and give credit where it is due thats all.

I think we need to move away from bashing the name Prohormone because then its classes them all together without giving any a chance, thats all.

I dont stand up for Prohormones, I stand up for being open-minded and I dont think we do this community justice by bashing prohormones simply because they are prohormones...

Be skeptical but when and if a PH comes around that seems to work, at least concede the point that it might help in the grand scheme of things.



-Legacy

 

[fromkrypton]

The great thing (or bad, depending on your view) about prohormones. . . even after the ban of three compounds at the end of this month, there will still be plentiful options. Some of the big boys aren't on the ban, plus give those crafty chemists a bit of time and there will be some more on the market before you know it.

 

[needtogetaas]

You're right about the test but I must say, I believe the current thinking is wrong. Test is the most recommended for a first cycle and I think it's the worst choice. But that's just trend and fashion. That's irrelevant when assessing the efficacy of one product or another.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I don;t give a rats ass how a PH is listed or what name it's given. The bottom line is how well it works compared to the sides effects. So far, I'm not impressed.

For the most part nether am I. I have had good runs with some PH'S though. Researched right and run with other good products and they can be pretty good.

Are they up there with aas no I don't think so. Say what ever you want but the facts are still there. No one will ever gain as much or get as much out of a ph as they will a test,deca,dbol,tren, know what I am saying?

 

[hehateme000]

Be skeptical but when and if a PH comes around that seems to work, at least concede the point that it might help in the grand scheme of things.



-Legacy

Exactly. Some PH's might not give off as many sides as others. And those who take it just to get bigger and get stronger like it, because thats what it does. Maybe the side effects are lower than most PH's, which are garbage..

 

[Nelson Montana]

Actually, all of these designers were first synthesized by scientists working for drug companies. These current supplement companies only found the old research and revived these compounds.

Right. The research that was abandoned.

I heard mixed reviews on Havoc. (Seems to have the same lethargy effect that m1T had).

Bottom line. If someone thinks it worked for them, there's no changing that opinion. I no longer can afford to try every PH like I used to. I don't want to mess with my HPTA anymore at this point so I can't speak from first hand experience. But every other PH that that I tried which promised the world seemed to be worthless for everything besides increasing estrogen.

 

[hehateme000]

If someone wants to take steroids, and they say theire like 5'9" 190 but also say that they have used prohormones, does that mean they are still at an ok weight to start using real steroids? If they had been this weight long after the discontinuance of prohormones?

 

[eddymerckx]

Actually, all of these designers were first synthesized by scientists working for drug companies. These current supplement companies only found the old research and revived these compounds.

but for all intents and purposes they are in a different class than "traditional" steroids--sort of like taking a thyroid precursor vs t3.

btw, thanks for your books bill--kept me safe and healthy before sites like this one existed

 

[bigdofba]

i don't need to read any study

yes they are anabolic in nature and "work"

but they put your body under more stress than their injectable second cousins

resulting in higher liver values, fatigue, acne, etc

granted you might see some of these side effects on injectables, but they will be more pronounced with prohormones

that's pretty much it, can't wait for the steroid/prohormone argument to begin

I think you pretty much hit it on the head.

"Some" work to an extent but not all.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

but for all intents and purposes they are in a different class than "traditional" steroids--sort of like taking a thyroid precursor vs t3.

NO! These are NOT precursors. They are steroids, period. The only thing that makes a "traditional" steroid any different is that some drug company invested several million dollars to bring it to the FDA, get it registered, and ran a number of very expensive clinical studies on it before it was approved.

THAT IS THE ONLY DIFFERENCE!!!!

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Right. The research that was abandoned.

I give up.

 

[needtogetaas]

I use secret because its PH balanced just for me.

 

[DJLegacy2k1]

I give up.

Trust me I feel your pain. Ive been trying to explain this over and over but certain people here are VERY stubborn in their views and unless its Illegal to mail order, they will not give it credit as a "steroid". All because their are some scammers out there that make bad product, they now classify ALL "Ph's" as junk.

Science is science, Im not sure how that one is argued though, who knows.

-Legacy

 

[fromkrypton]

NO! These are NOT precursors. They are steroids, period. The only thing that makes a "traditional" steroid any different is that some drug company invested several million dollars to bring it to the FDA, get it registered, and ran a number of very expensive clinical studies on it before it was approved.

THAT IS THE ONLY DIFFERENCE!!!!

Exactly. If a non-PH user wants to blast a PH user for doing an "oral only" cycle go right ahead, because that is what they are doing.

Many can't find a source, or don't want to take the legal risks of obtaining "real" gear, so PHs are an attractive (and only) option to those who want to use something other than "traditional" supplements.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Trust me I feel your pain. Ive been trying to explain this over and over but certain people here are VERY stubborn in their views and unless its Illegal to mail order, they will not give it credit as a "steroid". All because their are some scammers out there that make bad product, they now classify ALL "Ph's" as junk.

Science is science, Im not sure how that one is argued though, who knows.

-Legacy

This is wrong. It isn't about adhering to an opinion just because it's comfortable. It's about stating facts. If PH's were so good, the pharm companies would be selling them. They abandoned the formulations that are now being used. That's a fact.

Do some "work?" Yeah, maybe a little. Maybe more with some than in others. I just think there are better alternatives and that doesn't necessarily mean drugs. Hell, I'd put UNLEASHED/BIG BLAST/VIGOR up against ANY Prohormone or designer steroid or whatever you want to call it and I KNOW the results will blow away that shit and there wouldn't be any sides.

So instead of splitting hairs about terminology or what works or at what cost, I'm more interested in what's "worth it." I've yet to find a PH that is IMO. If there were, I'd use it. And everyone else would too.

 

[DJLegacy2k1]

This is wrong. It isn't about adhering to an opinion just because it's comfortable. It's about stating facts. If PH's were so good, the pharm companies would be selling them. They abandoned the formulations that are now being used. That's a fact.

Do some "work?" Yeah, maybe a little. Maybe more with some than in others. I just think there are better alternatives and that doesn't necessarily mean drugs. Hell, I'd put UNLEASHED/BIG BLAST/VIGOR up against ANY Prohormone or designer steroid or whatever you want to call it and I KNOW the results will blow away that shit and there wouldn't be any sides.

So instead of splitting hairs about terminology or what works or at what cost, I'm more interested in what's "worth it." I've yet to find a PH that is IMO. If there were, I'd use it. And everyone else would too.

No then the correct thing to say would be that "ProHormones" are WEAK aas. Just because you dont see the results you want doesnt change what they are. I have read lots of logs on CERTAIN "PHs" where MULTIPLE people were reporting GOOD results with low sides, I think all AAS have SOME type of side effect.

So chemically if they are AAS, then they are AAS, its just a matter of how EFFECTIVE the compound produces results.

-Legacy

 

[mikediesel04]

Ill let everyone know how my cyclotren cycle goes...

 

[fromkrypton]

Keep us posted.

 

[hehateme000]

^^ Id like to know too, my friend is about to take it right after his first bottle of TREN XTREME is up so hes gonna be on like a 7 week PH cycle..

 

[needtogetaas]

Ill let everyone know how my cyclotren cycle goes...

Cuz I'm mike d and a get respect. Ya cash in your jewelry is what I expect.

 

[fromkrypton]

^^ Id like to know too, my friend is about to take it right after his first bottle of TREN XTREME is up so hes gonna be on like a 7 week PH cycle..

Your friend does realize they are the same compound right? I would also recommend to your friend not to go 7 weeks, but that is just my humble opinion.

 

[hehateme000]

Yea thats the point, hes done a lot of PH cycles and im pretty sure hell pay the price pretty soon but he just doesnt care, he jus loves gettin stronger on PH's, which is what u SHOULNT do, but i cant talk him out of it. How can i hes 15lbs more than me and a lot stronger.

 

[Nelson Montana]

No then the correct thing to say would be that "ProHormones" are WEAK aas. Just because you dont see the results you want doesnt change what they are. I have read lots of logs on CERTAIN "PHs" where MULTIPLE people were reporting GOOD results with low sides, I think all AAS have SOME type of side effect.

So chemically if they are AAS, then they are AAS, its just a matter of how EFFECTIVE the compound produces results.

-Legacy

Again, you're getting caught up in terminology. I don't give a crap what they're called to be honest. And what is "correct" isn't necessarily what you want to hear. I stand by my statement.

I agree with you that it comes down to how effective they are. My experience says they aren't. I'm sure whose "logs" you have but I'd like to see them backed up with some blood tests.

 

[hehateme000]

Again, you're getting caught up in terminology. I don't give a crap what they're called to be honest. And what is "correct" isn't necessarily what you want to hear. I stand by my statement.

I agree with you that it comes down to how effective they are. My experience says they aren't. I'm sure whose "logs" you have but I'd like to see them backed up with some blood tests.

What would blood tests do? For people that want gains in a month without stickin themselves, they get what they want. Muscle and strength. They dont care about the sides that much. SO jus because they might get sides as shown on a blood test, doesnt say anything about their gains, or how much stronger they got.

 

[artificialaspirations]

I know havoc worked for me in terms of strenght, slight size gain and an increase in vascularity that has not yet gone away, but I can not attest as to what it did to my insides...which is the fuel for this debate.

 

[hehateme000]

How much worse can a prohormone be?

Your liver? Probably the same stress as dbol for 6 weeks @40mg along with some alcohol in there....

Acne? Expect that with ANY PH/Steroid you take

Gyno? Take nolva or an AI.


I think way too many people take a prohormone and a prohormone only. I dont know many people that take clomid and nolva after a PH cycle, and i bet if they did PH's wouldnt get such a bad rap.

 

[eddymerckx]

NO! These are NOT precursors. They are steroids, period. The only thing that makes a "traditional" steroid any different is that some drug company invested several million dollars to bring it to the FDA, get it registered, and ran a number of very expensive clinical studies on it before it was approved.

THAT IS THE ONLY DIFFERENCE!!!!

i disagree--and using caps will not make your point any more viable--if the prohormone requires some sort of action to convert it to a usable substance how is that not a precusor? heck, from peer reviewed research journal look at the damn title:

Journal of Athletic Training 2002;37(3):300–305by the National Athletic Trainers’ Association, "The Safety and Efficacy of Anabolic Steroid Precursors".....whichh found "Whenever an athlete is considering using steroid precursorsor any ergogenic supplement, 3 questions must be asked: is itsafe, does it work, and is it legal? At this time, scientific sup-port for the ergogenic or anabolic use of steroid precursorsdoes not exist"

or e.g, as noted by Bill Roberts "where testosterone has a hydroxyl group in a certain position, androstene has a keto group. All the rest of the steroid is exactly the same. So the body can convert testosterone to androstene back and forth by using the enzyme that can make this change. We already mentioned the first way an enzyme can change one steroid into another. This was interchanging the keto that androstene has at the 17th position with a hydroxyl by 17b -HSD. Both of the diones (androstene and norandrostene) rely on this conversion. Both use this enzyme, and a small fraction of each is converted to testosterone or to nandrolone, respectively.

The second way is interchanging the hydroxyl that a diol has at the 3rdposition with the keto that testosterone has by another enzyme, 3b -HSD. Both of the diol products rely on this. So androdiol and norandrodiol both use this enzyme, and again, a small fraction is converted to testosterone or nandrolone, respectively.

The third way involves changing bonds as well as groups. While testosterone has a double bond (a chemical bond between carbon atoms using two pairs of electrons rather than just one pair) between the 4- and 5- carbons, the 5- prohormones have their double bond between the 5- and 6- carbons. These, such as 5-androstenediol, can only be converted to testosterone if this bond is changed in the process. This is more complex, and requires 3b -HSD/5,4 isomerase. The net result though is the same thing: conversion to testosterone.

But it is not testosterone---and lets not ignore the King et al study--

King, D.S., R.L. Sharp, M.D. Vukovich, G.A. Brown, T.A. Reifenrath, N.L. Uhl, and K.A. Parsons. Effect of oral androstenedione on serum testosterone and adaptations to resistance training in young men: a randomized controlled trial. JAMA. 281:2020-2028, 1999

found at http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/281/21/2020?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT
the crap did not work. period.

'Serum free and total testosterone concentrations were not affected by short- or long-term androstenedione administration. Serum estradiol concentration (mean [SEM]) was higher (P<.05) in the androstenedione group after 2 (310 [20] pmol/L), 5 (300 [30] pmol/L), and 8 (280 [20] pmol/L) weeks compared with presupplementation values (220 [20] pmol/L). The serum estrone concentration was significantly higher (P<.05) after 2 (153 [12] pmol/L) and 5 (142 [15] pmol/L) weeks of androstenedione supplementation compared with baseline (106 [11] pmol/L). Knee extension strength increased significantly (P<.05) and similarly in the placebo (770 [55] N vs 1095 [52] N) and androstenedione (717 [46] N vs 1024 [57] N) groups. The increase of the mean cross-sectional area of type 2 muscle fibers was also similar in androstenedione (4703 [471] vs 5307 [604] mm2; P<.05) and placebo (5271 [485] vs 5728 [451] mm2; P<.05) groups. The significant (P<.05) increases in lean body mass and decreases in fat mass were also not different in the androstenedione and placebo groups. In the androstenedione group, the serum high-density lipoprotein cholesterol concentration was reduced after 2 weeks (1.09 [0.08] mmol/L [42 (3) mg/dL] vs 0.96 [0.08] mmol/L [37 (3) mg/dL]; P<.05) and remained low after 5 and 8 weeks of training and supplementation.

Conclusions Androstenedione supplementation does not increase serum testosterone concentrations or enhance skeletal muscle adaptations to resistance training in normotestosterogenic young men and may result in adverse health consequences.

 

[eddymerckx]

How much worse can a prohormone be?

Your liver? Probably the same stress as dbol for 6 weeks @40mg along with some alcohol in there....

Acne? Expect that with ANY PH/Steroid you take

Gyno? Take nolva or an AI.


I think way too many people take a prohormone and a prohormone only. I dont know many people that take clomid and nolva after a PH cycle, and i bet if they did PH's wouldnt get such a bad rap.

can you please post your support for each statement---

 

[hehateme000]

can you please post your support for each statement---

What do u disagree with that u need support

 

[eddymerckx]

What do u disagree with that u need support

"Your liver? Probably the same stress as dbol for 6 weeks @40mg along with some alcohol in there...."

explain

 

[hehateme000]

it means in both cases you will have sides but nothing thats too drastic. The Prohormone sides that are always "worse" than real AAS cant be that true.

I understand that the sides you get compared to the strength you could get from real steroids is why prohormones arent worth it, but thats only for some people. Not evryone wants to stick themselves. Some people only want muscle in a month. Some people cant afford anything more than 60-70 bucks.

 

[eddymerckx]

it means in both cases you will have sides but nothing thats too drastic. The Prohormone sides that are always "worse" than real AAS cant be that true.

I understand that the sides you get compared to the strength you could get from real steroids is why prohormones arent worth it, but thats only for some people. Not evryone wants to stick themselves. Some people only want muscle in a month. Some people cant afford anything more than 60-70 bucks.

you reasoning is what we call in law ipse dixit

ipse dixit (ip-sah dicks-it) v. Latin for "he himself said it," meaning the only proof we have of the fact is that this person said it

in other words, your proof is not based on empirical data but on a guess.....

 

[hehateme000]

ok thx for the sarcastic resonse, however i havent seen anything on the side effects of prohormones being worse than AAS.

What shuts u down harder, 300mg of testosterone or 30mg of 19-norandrosta,7-dione-3??

 

[eddymerckx]

ok thx for the sarcastic resonse, however i havent seen anything on the side effects of prohormones being worse than AAS.

What shuts u down harder, 300mg of testosterone or 30mg of 19-norandrosta,7-dione-3??

my response was not sarcastic--it just pointed-out that you tried to prove your point with faulty logic.

and to answer your question--you are either shut down, supressed, or normal---"harder" has nothing to do with your htpa.

 

[hehateme000]

^^Not sarcastic? Your whole reply was about ipse dixit. Honestly

you look at the net weight of the 17a molecule compared to that of gear and the prohormone has a much greater percentage as a percentage of total weight. thus more hepatoxic

Sorry to correct you, but that isn't true at all. These compounds are no more C17aa by weight than dianabol, winstrol, etc etc.

Also, the relative weight of the C17aa compared to the base structure (they should all be extremely similar anyway) is irrelevant to the hepatotoxic nature of a steroid. This is determined by a combination of 1) its resistance to breakdown and 2) Its overall anabolic/androgenic potency.

Who am i gonna believe? You didnt even reply to what he said.

I havent seen anybody get seriously fucked up by taking prohormones unless they were takin 10 pills a day. Like anything, if you abuse it ur gonna get fucked. Prohormones are meant to get u muscle in a month. Steroids are meant to get u muscle in 3 months. prohormones are $XX.00. Steroids are $XXX.00

The ONLY thing that i see what AAS benefits over prohormones is that u get better gains since u can take them longer.

 

[eddymerckx]

^^Not sarcastic? Your whole reply was about ipse dixit. Honestly






Who am i gonna believe? You didnt even reply to what he said.

I havent seen anybody get seriously fucked up by taking prohormones unless they were takin 10 pills a day. Like anything, if you abuse it ur gonna get fucked. Prohormones are meant to get u muscle in a month. Steroids are meant to get u muscle in 3 months. prohormones are $XX.00. Steroids are $XXX.00

The ONLY thing that i see what AAS benefits over prohormones is that u get better gains since u can take them longer.

I am not asking you to believe anything---I asked you to support your assertion that"

"Your liver? Probably the same stress as dbol for 6 weeks @40mg along with some alcohol in there...."

Now, can you support that statement or not?

 

[hehateme000]

WHy would i need to support something to someone who doesnt even know that the weight of the molecule has NOTHING to do with the hepatoxicity?

And if you READ my post, i said probably. No i cant support that statement, can u support that what i said isnt true?

 

[Raptorex]

1-test rubbed on my balls feels marvelous!

 

[eddymerckx]

Sorry to correct you, but that isn't true at all. These compounds are no more C17aa by weight than dianabol, winstrol, etc etc.

Also, the relative weight of the C17aa compared to the base structure (they should all be extremely similar anyway) is irrelevant to the hepatotoxic nature of a steroid. This is determined by a combination of 1) its resistance to breakdown and 2) Its overall anabolic/androgenic potency.

no, your point is a straw man argument--the amount of prohormones needed to get to the equiv of what it pretends to be is as much as 20x--

for example, the convertion ratio of 19-Nor-4-androsten-3,17-dione yields roughly 5.61% percent of nandrolone from the amount ingested---therefore, there is just more molecules with that extra carbon---and to your point, you asserting that an exponentially greater amount of molecules with a c17aa has no relation to the hepatoxicity?

 

[eddymerckx]

WHy would i need to support something to someone who doesnt even know that the weight of the molecule has NOTHING to do with the hepatoxicity?

And if you READ my post, i said probably. No i cant support that statement, can u support that what i said isnt true?

yes, I can answer your question--test is more supressive as there is no such thing as 19-norandrosta,7-dione-3.

he is correct--the net weight of the individual molecule is not relative to hepatoxicity; however, when you have many times the number of molecules altered at the the 17th carbon does have a profound impact on the liver's ability to metabolize--

now, after you do graduate-level biochem coursework-or have even a remedial understanding of biophys through experience you may find fault in my arguments, until that point you are left to parrot what another has said--

 

[jnef]

no, your point is a straw man argument--the amount of prohormones needed to get to the equiv of what it pretends to be is as much as 20x--

for example, the convertion ratio of 19-Nor-4-androsten-3,17-dione yields roughly 5.61% percent of nandrolone from the amount ingested---therefore, there is just more molecules with that extra carbon---and to your point, you asserting that an exponentially greater amount of molecules with a c17aa has no relation to the hepatoxicity?

bunch of smarties in here

 

[eddymerckx]

bunch of smarties in here

naw, i just stayed at a holiday inn express last night.

 

[jnef]

naw, i just stayed at a holiday inn express last night.

lol is there a place to learn about the compounds and what they consist of for "dummies" or should i have just paid more attention in school

 

[eddymerckx]

lol is there a place to learn about the compounds and what they consist of for "dummies" or should i have just paid more attention in school

nelson montana's The Bodybuilding Truth e-book is a great start--Nelson knows his chemistry and although i disagree with bill llyewllyn on this point his "anabolics 200X" books are sort of the first place to look to understand some of the basics

the rest is from reading whatever omega, nelson, mavafanculo, tatyana, needto, swole, guardian, galaxy, zygmail, alcatraz1662, nobradpitt, and tons of other bros and as a point of clarification--i am not even in the same league as these people--a mere pretender

 

[jnef]

nelson montana's The Bodybuilding Truth e-book is a great start--Nelson knows his chemistry and although i disagree with bill llyewllyn on this point his "anabolics 200X" books are sort of the first place to look to understand some of the basics

the rest is from reading whatever omega, nelson, mavafanculo, tatyana, needto, swole, guardian, galaxy, zygmail, alcatraz1662, nobradpitt, and tons of other bros and as a point of clarification--i am not even in the same league as these people--a mere pretender

thanks sounds like a good place to start, wouldnt call you a pretender - you know more about aas then 95+% of people who use

 

[eddymerckx]

thanks sounds like a good place to start, wouldnt call you a pretender - you know more about aas then 95+% of people who use

thanks bro---just learned along the way--like 18g in trap=bad

 

[the_alcatraz]

Good post.

yes, I can answer your question--test is more supressive as there is no such thing as 19-norandrosta,7-dione-3.

he is correct--the net weight of the individual molecule is not relative to hepatoxicity; however, when you have many times the number of molecules altered at the the 17th carbon does have a profound impact on the liver's ability to metabolize--

now, after you do graduate-level biochem coursework-or have even a remedial understanding of biophys through experience you may find fault in my arguments, until that point you are left to parrot what another has said--

 

[ryno9000]

Cuz I'm mike d and a get respect. Ya cash in your jewelry is what I expect.

Don't think you can sneak Beastie lyrics (and Secret ultra dry ads) by me. I love that you are keepin' this thread real.

Good thread by the way. Seeing some true colors come out on this one, and some good points made on both sides of the argument.

 

[Harleymarleybone]

300? try a month but i stacked it with their other product. Its one molecule away from being a steroid, so i think its the best prohormone you can get for 60 bucks. I love Americell but i cant wait till im 21 for that test/dbol/deca cycle

Say what? If you are talking about growth plate issues, prohormones close growth plates just like the AAS you mentioned.

Sheesuz, when are people going to wise up.

 

[Harleymarleybone]

^^Not sarcastic? Your whole reply was about ipse dixit. Honestly






Who am i gonna believe? You didnt even reply to what he said.

I havent seen anybody get seriously fucked up by taking prohormones unless they were takin 10 pills a day. Like anything, if you abuse it ur gonna get fucked. Prohormones are meant to get u muscle in a month. Steroids are meant to get u muscle in 3 months. prohormones are $XX.00. Steroids are $XXX.00

The ONLY thing that i see what AAS benefits over prohormones is that u get better gains since u can take them longer.

M1T made me feel worse than any AAS I have ever taken, and I was only taking 20 mg a day. Plus, while I never got gyno from test, d-bol, deca, tren, winny or any AAS, I now have small lumps thanks to M1T.

 

[jnef]

Say what? If you are talking about growth plate issues, prohormones close growth plates just like the AAS you mentioned.

Sheesuz, when are people going to wise up.

owned

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

no, your point is a straw man argument--the amount of prohormones needed to get to the equiv of what it pretends to be is as much as 20x--

for example, the convertion ratio of 19-Nor-4-androsten-3,17-dione yields roughly 5.61% percent of nandrolone from the amount ingested---therefore, there is just more molecules with that extra carbon---and to your point, you asserting that an exponentially greater amount of molecules with a c17aa has no relation to the hepatoxicity?

You are commenting about the conversion of a 1st generation prohormone (which required enzymes to convert the inactive 17-ketone to an active 17beta-hydroxyl group). This is a thread about active steroids that require NO ENZYMES, NO CONVERSION, NO ANYTHING. They are inherently active steroids.

Also, you are referring to incubation studies with 19-nor. Nobody knows how much orally you need to take to get X amount in your body. All guesses.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

and to your point, you asserting that an exponentially greater amount of molecules with a c17aa has no relation to the hepatoxicity?

Methyltrienolone and Anadrol are both c17aa and hepatotoxic. Methyltrienolone, however, is the most highly liver toxic steroid ever assayed. It can impart significant toxicity at 1mg per day. Anadrol probably imparts less toxicity at 50-100mg per day. That is roughly 50-100 times the number of c17aa molecules floating around your body. Again, it is the resistance to breakdown in the liver and relative potency that determine steroid hepatotoxicity, not total milligram amount.

I am not sure you understand the "17aa moleculaes thing". You do know these steroids are a single molecule. All of the ones we are talking about are c17AA, like most oral steroids. How much "other stuff" is on the steroid backbone is not important.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

i disagree--and using caps will not make your point any more viable--if the prohormone requires some sort of action to convert it to a usable substance how is that not a precusor? heck, from peer reviewed research journal look at the damn title:

Journal of Athletic Training 2002;37(3):300–305by the National Athletic Trainers’ Association, "The Safety and Efficacy of Anabolic Steroid Precursors".....whichh found "Whenever an athlete is considering using steroid precursorsor any ergogenic supplement, 3 questions must be asked: is itsafe, does it work, and is it legal? At this time, scientific sup-port for the ergogenic or anabolic use of steroid precursorsdoes not exist"

or e.g, as noted by Bill Roberts "where testosterone has a hydroxyl group in a certain position, androstene has a keto group. All the rest of the steroid is exactly the same. So the body can convert testosterone to androstene back and forth by using the enzyme that can make this change. We already mentioned the first way an enzyme can change one steroid into another. This was interchanging the keto that androstene has at the 17th position with a hydroxyl by 17b -HSD. Both of the diones (androstene and norandrostene) rely on this conversion. Both use this enzyme, and a small fraction of each is converted to testosterone or to nandrolone, respectively.

The second way is interchanging the hydroxyl that a diol has at the 3rdposition with the keto that testosterone has by another enzyme, 3b -HSD. Both of the diol products rely on this. So androdiol and norandrodiol both use this enzyme, and again, a small fraction is converted to testosterone or nandrolone, respectively.

The third way involves changing bonds as well as groups. While testosterone has a double bond (a chemical bond between carbon atoms using two pairs of electrons rather than just one pair) between the 4- and 5- carbons, the 5- prohormones have their double bond between the 5- and 6- carbons. These, such as 5-androstenediol, can only be converted to testosterone if this bond is changed in the process. This is more complex, and requires 3b -HSD/5,4 isomerase. The net result though is the same thing: conversion to testosterone.

But it is not testosterone---and lets not ignore the King et al study--

King, D.S., R.L. Sharp, M.D. Vukovich, G.A. Brown, T.A. Reifenrath, N.L. Uhl, and K.A. Parsons. Effect of oral androstenedione on serum testosterone and adaptations to resistance training in young men: a randomized controlled trial. JAMA. 281:2020-2028, 1999

found at http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/281/21/2020?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT
the crap did not work. period.

'Serum free and total testosterone concentrations were not affected by short- or long-term androstenedione administration. Serum estradiol concentration (mean [SEM]) was higher (P<.05) in the androstenedione group after 2 (310 [20] pmol/L), 5 (300 [30] pmol/L), and 8 (280 [20] pmol/L) weeks compared with presupplementation values (220 [20] pmol/L). The serum estrone concentration was significantly higher (P<.05) after 2 (153 [12] pmol/L) and 5 (142 [15] pmol/L) weeks of androstenedione supplementation compared with baseline (106 [11] pmol/L). Knee extension strength increased significantly (P<.05) and similarly in the placebo (770 [55] N vs 1095 [52] N) and androstenedione (717 [46] N vs 1024 [57] N) groups. The increase of the mean cross-sectional area of type 2 muscle fibers was also similar in androstenedione (4703 [471] vs 5307 [604] mm2; P<.05) and placebo (5271 [485] vs 5728 [451] mm2; P<.05) groups. The significant (P<.05) increases in lean body mass and decreases in fat mass were also not different in the androstenedione and placebo groups. In the androstenedione group, the serum high-density lipoprotein cholesterol concentration was reduced after 2 weeks (1.09 [0.08] mmol/L [42 (3) mg/dL] vs 0.96 [0.08] mmol/L [37 (3) mg/dL]; P<.05) and remained low after 5 and 8 weeks of training and supplementation.

Conclusions Androstenedione supplementation does not increase serum testosterone concentrations or enhance skeletal muscle adaptations to resistance training in normotestosterogenic young men and may result in adverse health consequences.

You are about 12 years behind. Your post is about ANDROSTENEDIONE. Androstenedione is not an active steroid. It is a steroid metabolite that can be converted back to testosterone by the body. This is NOT what we are talking about here eddy.

 

[tonegully]

man, from reading this thread i feel smarter already..lol.
This is an great debate going on here

 

[GUARDIAN]

alot of great info in here.

 

[fromkrypton]

GREAT thread. . . just need some .

 

[hehateme000]

God i wish i was smart enough to comment back to eddy but i jus get owned everytime...thx bill

Also, u said ud have to take 20x the amount of prohormones to get the effects of steroids. No one does that they just take about a months supply, so thats not a valid argument to say the hepatoxicity is more since ud have to take 20 pills a day. It doesnt work like that.

 

[hehateme000]

M1T made me feel worse than any AAS I have ever taken, and I was only taking 20 mg a day. Plus, while I never got gyno from test, d-bol, deca, tren, winny or any AAS, I now have small lumps thanks to M1T.

You didnt do enough research if u went with M1T. Take Cyclotren or TREN XTREME and tell me if u get those same sides. Ive seen 6 different companies all stating that they have the same molecular structure as TREN XTREME from Americell-labs. That obviously means that TREN XTREME is a good prohormone...i didnt find any other PH's saying they had the same structure as another prohormone.

 

[Harleymarleybone]

You didnt do enough research if u went with M1T. Take Cyclotren or TREN XTREME and tell me if u get those same sides. Ive seen 6 different companies all stating that they have the same molecular structure as TREN XTREME from Americell-labs. That obviously means that TREN XTREME is a good prohormone...i didnt find any other PH's saying they had the same structure as another prohormone.

Not saying all prohormones all like M1T, Huck. Just narrating an experience of one prohormone I took. But now it is clear you are just hawking a product.