squatts down to the ground... lower back question.

[satchboogie]

when squatting all the way down to the ground, do you also feel your lower back muscles (erector spinae) burning like a motha?

i was wondering what the benefits of doing such squatts versus going half way down.

thanks in advance.

 

[Deepsquat]

I always have felt that you can go too low.. 99.99999% of all people that squat really low have a huge form break at the start of the rep ...they rise up with thier hips first and then with thier shoulders...this is why you back burns....also when going super low....that last 2 inches...does nothing to build muscle, just allows you to bounce, or strain your knees...if you want to go deep, try just 1-2 inches below parallel...that will mean you are squatting deeper themn 99% of the people in your gym!

 

[satchboogie]

and that burn at the beginning of the rep, is that 'bad' for your lower back?

 

[BigBadBootyDaddy29]

I squat ass to the floor, and have since day 1 almost 10 years ago and have never had a lower back problem, the key is tightness, I never bounce on the bottom, that is incorrect form.....concentrate on not allowing the bar to come forward, and squat with your hamstrings as well, a good way to exlain this is just flex your hams throughout the rep......also, I don't know your entire routine, but your squat is only as good as your lower back and abs, you need to whack your low back and your abs with direct training.......The benefits of going down to the basement is that you develop the entire leg, keeping balanced dtrength between the quads and hams and this goes a long way in the prevention of a hamstring tear, which can set your training way back, and may cause nagging problems the rest of your training career.

 

[BigBadBootyDaddy29]

I tend to go off on a tirade sometimes, I realized I ignored your question.....Yes, burning of the lower back during a squat is bad, and should not occur. Squats in an indirect way hit the low back and cause the erectors to be strengthened, but it is not a direct low back exercise and should not cause burning....I will go out and guess that at some, maybe you're even unaware of it, that the bar comes forward past your knees at some point, just double check this fine form point and if thats the problem, correct it and you should be squatting pain free......a lot of guys and gals do almost a hybrid goodmorning with max squat weight, or they pop up their hips too soon and lock their legs out and then straighten out their back, these are fine points, but it may be aggrivating your back, or it could be weak abs, and don't get all bent out of shape over this, you may have a visible 8 pack, and still have weak abs, a lot of people who do "crunches" look great in a speedo, but they have weak abs, try doing full range of motion sit-ups for the abs, also do your not so heavy sets with no weight belt if u don't already do this......I am trying to bring up some things u may be doing, so don't take the post the wrong way brother, it is just that full squats are the shit, and if I could get somebody who is having a problem with them to just re-evaluate their form and assistance work and see if the problem can be corrected in favor of scrapping squats for a sissy exercise or doing 1/8 of a rep on your squats, I think it is fucking great, so just look at all this stuff before you count out full squats, a lot of the things I mentioned I have seen a million times and I have seen problems corrected a million times.

 

[satchboogie]

BBD29....

i appreciate that bro, but not clear about one thing.

see... my erector spinae give up before my quads do. now correct me if i'm wrong but thats because of a weak lower back?

also, since my erector spinae are contracting to failure, are you saying that i'm doing damage to my lower back or that i'm just not utilizing the squat as its supposed to be performed.

thanks bro.

 

[BigBadBootyDaddy29]

okay, bro...lets see if I can take a stab at this......If your erectors are giving out before your quads, it is most likely due to a weakness in the erectors or, believe it or not, the abs, because if your abs can't hang, then your low back picks up the slack, stressing it, this doesn't maen a bodypart is "weak", just proportionately weak compared to something else (quads, hams, whatever)......since you said your erectors give out, I imagine that it feels like they are worked, like when u do hypers, in that case it is a "good" sore, as opposed to a pain from an injury, so that could rule out a form issue......I would suggest doing abs in a full range of motion, slamming your lower back by direct work, heavy, heavy hamstring work, and you should be good to go.....you're only as strong as your worst weakness, so look into this shit.....it is like guys whose forearms give out on shrugs before their traps are fried, just address the weak points and it will improve your strengths.

 

[collegiateLifter]

sounds like the lower back could be rounding... not good

 

[spatts]

I'm with BBD. I squat ATF now and then, and when doing belt squats, oly squats, etc...

A strong tight core is essential for maintaining safety and form in ANY squat, ATF or not. The idea that this is "quads vs erectors" makes me think your form is off, and squatting with primarily the quads will cause that IRRESPECTIVE of depth. Using your hamstrings to squat actually protects your knees, and allows you to recruit stronger muscles for the job. One of the main reasons people use their erectors, round out, knee cave, etc...is because of a lack of hip flexibility and strength. The Project does this, and we only squat to parallel. His lower back is SO much stronger than his hips/glutes and hamstrings that he starts to GM the squat when he fatigues.

The proper form for a parallel squat is the proper form for an ATF squat. If you look at oly lifter's videos, their knees aren't way out front over their toes just because they're going ATF! The posterior chain should bare the brunt in any squat, because it can and it's safer.

Long story short...yes, your core is weak. Attack your weakness, and you will be able to squat to any depth safely. Your core (abs, obliques, intercostals, erectors, etc..) can NEVER be strong enough. They support everything you do.

 

[collegiateLifter]

The proper form for a parallel squat is the proper form for an ATF squat. If you look at oly lifter's videos, their knees aren't way out front over their toes just because they're going ATF! The posterior chain should bare the brunt in any squat, because it can and it's safer.

Long story short...yes, your core is weak. Attack your weakness, and you will be able to squat to any depth safely. Your core (abs, obliques, intercostals, erectors, etc..) can NEVER be strong enough. They support everything you do.

care to back this up? tommorow i might go hunt down some videos, but what you are suggesting is a bit of a physiological impossibility. OLers specifically use their quads for many reasons, among them, they can go farther down, and its necessary for things like front squats at the end of the clean.

 

[spatts]

First of all, a squat is a compound move....all squats are going to work the posterior chain, the quads, etc. Sometimes people forget to recruit the glutes/hams for squat, and I don't think oly lifters neglect this just because they use alot of front strength...that's all I was saying. I think it's safe to say that you will always be stronger recruiting more muscles than less.

I have backed this point up many times, so doing it again will only involve pasting a pic I already have:

My point was that he STILL sits back, and his knees are not gortesquely over his toes because he possesses the hip and hamstring strength and flexibility to do it that way. It is not physiologically impossible to sit back and go low; I do it all the time...even in a wide stance (knees do not come forward, sitting back, ATF):

With a strong, tight core, and alot of practice and flexibility, this CAN be done. Most of the time when I see people squat ATF, they are in a weird forward leaning position, almost on the balls of their feet, which puts the lower back, knees, etc...in a compromised position. That is the only reason I addressed this form issue with satch. In the event that he IS doing them in this compromised position, there's no wondering why his lower back hurts.


Also, taken from Arioch's Squat Theory and Execution:

There are several schools of thought on squat depth. Many misinformed individuals caution against squatting below parallel, stating that this is hazardous to the knees. Nothing could be further from the truth. (2) Stopping at or above parallel places direct stress on the knees, whereas a deep squat will transfer the load to the hips,(3) which are capable of handling a greater amount of force than the knees should ever be exposed to. Studies have shown that the squat produces lower peak tibeo-femoral(stress at the knee joint) compressive force than both the leg press and the leg extension.(4) For functional strength, one should descend as deeply as possible, and under control. (yes, certain individuals can squat in a ballistic manner, but they are the exception rather than the rule). The further a lifter descends, the more the hamstrings are recruited, and proper squatting displays nearly twice the hamstring involvement of the leg press or leg extension. (5,6) and as one of the functions of the hamstring is to protect the patella tendon (the primary tendon involved in knee extension) during knee extension through a concurrent firing process, the greatest degree of hamstring recruitment should provide the greatest degree of protection to the knee joint. (7) When one is a powerlifter, the top surface of the legs at the hip joint must descend to a point below the top surface of the legs at the knee joint.

One of the most, if not the most critical factor in squatting is spinal position. It is incredibly important not to round the back. This can lead to problems with the lower back, and upper back as well. The back should be arched, and the scapulae retracted, to avoid injury. This position must be maintained throughout the entire lift, as rounding on the way up is even more common than rounding on the way down, and people who make this mistake are the ones who perpetuate the “squats are bad for your back” myth. Furthermore, spinal position is essential to maintaining a proper combined center of gravity (CCOG). The farther one leans forward or, even worse, rounds the back, the more strain the erectors are forced to bear, and the less the abdominals can contribute to the lift. To say nothing of the fact that the greater the lean, the greater the shearing force placed on the vertebrae. Proper spinal alignment will assist in ensuring that the majority of the force the spine must bear is compressive in nature, as it should be. Another reason for descending below parallel is that the sacrum undergoes a process known as nutation (it tilts forward, relative to the two ilia on either side of it). At only 90 degrees of knee flexion, the sacrum is still tilted backward, which inhibits proper firing of the erectors and gluteus maximus and minimus. Going through a full range of motion completes the rotation of the sacrum and allows maximal muscular recruitment.

The shins should be a close to vertical as possible throughout the entire movement. This lessens the opening of the knee joint, and reduces the shearing force as well. By reducing the workload that the knee joint is required to handle, more of the work is accomplished by the larger muscles around the hip joint. For powerlifters, this decreases the distance one must travel with the bar, as the further the knee moves forward, the lower the hips must descend to break parallel.

The primary muscles which contribute to the squat, in no particular order, are the quadriceps, hamstrings, hip flexors/extensors, abdominals, and spinal erectors. When an athlete fails to rise from the bottom of a squat, it is important to note that not all of the muscles are failing simultaneously. Rather, a specific muscle will fail, and the key to progress is identifying the weakness, then strengthening it. While it is impossible to simply state that if x happens when squatting, it is muscle y that is causing the problem, some general guidelines follow. If a lifter fails to rise from the bottom of a squat, it generally indicates either a weakness in the hip flexors and extensors, or a lack of acceleration due to inhibition of the golgi tendon organ (no stretch reflex – train with lighter weight and learn to accelerate if this is the case). If an athlete has a tendency to lean forward and dump the bar overhead, it generally indicates either weak hamstrings or erectors. If an athlete has trouble stabilizing the bar, or maintaining an upright posture, it is often due to a weakness in the abs.

In choosing these particular quotes, I wanted to point out that even though a squat can involve more quad recruitment (especially in a narrow stance) it is obvious that RECRUITING the hips/hams to HELP the quads is safer and more productive than sacraficing the hips/hams to use the quads. Why choose, when you can use all the tools available?

 

[T Bone]

Great thread! I was logging on this morning in search and hope of reading about squats. I came, i saw, i conquered! Thanks guys and girls.


T Bone

 

[satchboogie]

SPATTS....

immaculate!

 

[satchboogie]

The back should be arched, and the scapulae retracted, to avoid injury. This position must be maintained throughout the entire lift, as rounding on the way up is even more common than rounding on the way down, and people who make this mistake are the ones who perpetuate the “squats are bad for your back” myth.

and the culprit is found.\\

thanks spatts

 

[collegiateLifter]

First of all, a squat is a compound move....all squats are going to work the posterior chain, the quads, etc. Sometimes people forget to recruit the glutes/hams for squat, and I don't think oly lifters neglect this just because they use alot of front strength...that's all I was saying. I think it's safe to say that you will always be stronger recruiting more muscles than less.

I have backed this point up many times, so doing it again will only involve pasting a pic I already have:



My point was that he STILL sits back, and his knees are not gortesquely over his toes because he possesses the hip and hamstring strength and flexibility to do it that way. It is not physiologically impossible to sit back and go low; I do it all the time...even in a wide stance (knees do not come forward, sitting back, ATF):

[

While i am impresed with your flexibility, I still don't think it either physiologically possible, or beneficial (as i am not a biomechanist so i don't think i can differentiate) for a lot of people to attempt to squat in the manner you did in you pic-- although i know you weren't attempting to say that its ideal.... anyway, squatting utilizying your quads and having the weight practically over your toes, may be bettter for some people. Depending on lever lengths, some people can siginficantly utilyze the posterior chain in this manner. Perhaps i misunderstood your point; heres a pic of Serge Reding


---
ok for some reason you have to goto
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/7342/Rdg2.html
and click on the snatch picture-- the 4th one down. directly goin to the pic doesnt seem to work.

 

[Lee]

Spatts can kick my ass.

 

[spatts]

The first pic was Pyrros Dimas at the Atlanta games. His site is down, so the pics not working right now.

 

[jeremys]

interesting thread

serge was freaking huge

 

[coolcolj]

body structure dictates style - I know Dimas, has short legs and long torso

 

[spatts]

Are we talking about lifting style? Or are we talking about ham/glute/hip recruitment in ANY squat? Or are we all just making points? I lose track.

 

[jeremys]

have we come to an agreement yet on whats best?

i used to just drop down and come up from a squat with a narrow stance. it was basically an oly squat and knees went in front of my toes a bit i'm sure. my legs grew like crazy though

 

[spatts]

No, and we never will. There is no best. I didn't even know we were debating what's best.

As far as I'm concerned, the best stance is the one you can stand back up with the most weight in.

I was arguing that just because people "quad squat" that doesn't mean they don't use or need strong. flexible hammies. That's all I was sayin....

 

[jeremys]

gotcha

 

[BigBadBootyDaddy29]

Spatts is right, as long as the fundamentals are there , the stance is a prsonal preference, Larry Pacifico would tell his trainees this, stance was never an issue......and people who quad squat not only are missing out on some huge numbers if only they utilized their hammies, but if they slack off on hamstring training, those babies are gonna tear some day, and tear hard.