Squat/Deadlift same day question

[fallingeggs]

If I were to squat and deadlift one the same day which would be better and why?

a) do them in the same workout, or;
b) space them out a few hours

I ask this because right now i am only in summer classes and i have all the time in the world to burn up. So i was thinking it might be a good idea if i put some time in the middle of them so that the muscles can re-absorbe food. What do you guys think about this theory (if you can call it that); reasons why it would not be better and such.

 

[solarclimax]

What rep range, what does your proposed full routine look like ?

 

[fallingeggs]

What rep range, what does your proposed full routine look like ?

about-
squat: 4x6
deads: 4x3
weighted to near failure but not quite there.

 

[solarclimax]

If that's the only 2 lifts you plan to do then i would say do them the same day, however wait for replys from the more knowledgeable folks

 

[fallingeggs]

Oh you ment full workout for the day; which is not much. I do some type of bench, either a 5x5 ramped or a 4x3.

The 'wasted' time of going to and from the gym another time is not a problem with me; I workout on campus which is a 5min walk from where I am. I guess you could say that I am looking for a more theoretical answer not so much what would be more practical.

 

[Cynical Simian]

weighted to near failure but not quite there.

In other words, near-maximal. If so, do them on different days. Deadlifts are taxing enough on their own (especially CNS-wise) without trying to do what is for most people the second-heaviest lift on the same day. Do lighter back squats or front squats and put your maximal back squats on a different day.

 

[fallingeggs]

In other words, near-maximal. If so, do them on different days. Deadlifts are taxing enough on their own (especially CNS-wise) without trying to do what is for most people the second-heaviest lift on the same day. Do lighter back squats or front squats and put your maximal back squats on a different day.

The 5x5 program calls for, on wednesday, to do squat and deadlift on the same day. What would be the reason behind this? Is it the fact that on that day the squats are less taxing and therefore makes 'room' for the deadlifts?

 

[solarclimax]

That's some good simple advice, why didn't i think of that.

 

[Cynical Simian]

Is it the fact that on that day the squats are less taxing and therefore makes 'room' for the deadlifts?

Yup.

 

[fallingeggs]

What would then be the specific disadvantage to doing a highly taxing squat and then a few hours later, after a superficial recovery [could not think of anything else to call it], doing near-maximal effort deads. Assuming that i do not have another squat or dead for 2 or 3 days

 

[Cynical Simian]

What would then be the specific disadvantage to doing a highly taxing squat and then a few hours later, after a superficial recovery [could not think of anything else to call it], doing near-maximal effort deads. Assuming that i do not have another squat or dead for 2 or 3 days

You pretty much answered your own question. When you have a whole week to work with (i.e. some form of dead/squat in a few days), why concentrate all of your most demanding work on a single day?

I'm not saying it's impossible, and separating them by 4 hours or whatever would be better than separating them by a few minutes (i.e. doing them in the same workout). But you'd still be settling for less recovery and be less capable in the second lift than if you made it your "main" lift on a given day. Also, don't underestimate the importance of CNS fatigue, which a meal and a few hours of rest isn't going to do much to correct.

 

[Protobuilder]

Well, you just said it. LoL A "superficial recovery." You could do deads one day, and squat the next. Or you could do deads at 3pm, and squats at 6pm . . . or do your squats at 4pm . . . or at 3:30 . . . or you could do deads at 3:00 and superset them with squats 30 seconds later . . . The only difference is how much rest you get between the exercises. Ideally, you want to be as fresh as possible going into each movement. But, it’s not possible to be 100% fresh each and every time unless you separate them by like 4 days and do nothing else in the meantime but sleep and eat. LoL So, you find a balance. Deads on Monday, heavy back squats on Thurs. or something to that effect. You can separate them by minutes or by hours or by days . . . just realize that you’re making trade-offs. Go too far in either direction and you screw things up pretty good. Just to make the point using some ridiculous examples: you could deadlift in March and then wait till May to squat to be 100% recovered. LoL Flip side, you can deadlift and then superset it w/ heavy back squats. Both approaches are stupid.

At the very least, separate them by more time rather than less, unless “life” dictates otherwise.


I like CS’s advice above. Heavy deads + front squats = good. LoL Heavy deads + heavy back squats = doable, but probably not “optimal” and probably not doable for long, especially if you’re talking multiple sets of 5-6 reps or whatever.

 

[Protobuilder]

LoL I didn’t mean to plagiarize your post, CS. You posted while I was “constructing” mine. LoL

FWIW, there’s research showing the benefits re: strength training to what’s called . . . damn, forgot the fancy words . . . but there’s benefits to spreading your training out (distributing it) rather than clustering it (concentrating it). So, rather than doing 5 exercises in one session, you’d get better results by doing 2-3 in the morning, and 2-3 in the evening. Makes sense, given CS and my post above – rest/recovery = stronger in the gym = more ability to push yourself to new levels.

It’s all the same basic principle—time separation between lifts/sets/days, etc. You also see better strength gains when you rest 4-5 minutes vs. 1-2 minutes, etc. but if you wait, say, 60 minutes between sets, you’re retarded. LoL Find the happy medium.

 

[fallingeggs]

I guess the reason behind this question has to deal with muscle glycogen levels. If a squat workout depletes the muscle of glycogen, which i believe it does, and it is true that glycogen is the fuel for the lifting, i was thinking the few hours would replenish the level to near full again and then when i do deads (after the hour or so rest and eating, i would have a high glycogen level which would enable me to pull more.

Maybe the after squat glycogen level and few hour rest/eating is not different enough to matter. Or it is good to do lifts with a lowered level.

or i could be off the wall wrong

 

[Protobuilder]

First off, doing several sets of moderate rep squats isn’t going to deplete your glycogen levels so much that a few carbs won’t fill you back up. Eating after your dead workout, and waiting a few hours and squatting, would be just fine as far as glycogen is concerned. So, don’t let the tail wag the dog here.

There is a lot more to consider here besides glycogen. The main reason for separating deads/squats etc. has to do w/ muscular and CNS fatigue. The lower back can only take so much. LoL And burning through a lot of very heavy, near max dead/back squats sets can wipe you out, nervous system-wise ( I don’t know the science). So, even assuming your glycogen levels are “restored” b/c you waited a few hours, you may be beat up physically/neurologically such that you aren’t at your “peak” come time to squat.

Again, you can do it, and even do quite well at it (heck, a few hours, some food, a nice nap, and I'd be "pretty" good to go but nowhere near 100%), just want to make sure you’re considering the right variables. I wouldn’t worry too much about glycogen so long as you eat between workouts.

 

[ChinkNasty]

I do heavy power cleans on mondays followed by heavy squats and on thursdays I do 75-80% squats followed by heavy deads - been runnin this split for about 10 weeks now and have no problems...dont overthink it, give it a chance for a few weeks and see hwo you feel

 

[blut wump]

Ability to perform squats and deads on the same day depends on three basic factors:
Intensity - how close to maximal weights you are using
Workload - how crazy you get with the workout
Frequency - how often you intend to do this
Conditioning - how accustomed you are to the task of deading and squatting together

Four basic factors...

We have at least one member here who is squatting and deadlifting 3x per week.

If you are going all out on your squats until you are dead in the water then you might as well be asking about squats and biceps curls. If you have energy spare then you can do another exercise. After a little rest you can do your curls. If you are well conditioned then a rest will be enough to allow you to dive into your deads and give them a good pounding. If you are an elite lifter then the overall drain of such a workout could leave you empty for a few days.

Basically, there's no specific answer to your question other than that you can put both exercises together but it depends on how well you manage your recovery. If you're still into 1x per week workouts then I'd suggest leaving as large a gap as possible between your squats workout and your deads workout.

 

[silver_shadow]

i have done deads after squats. but for me it's been speed squats (9x2 @ 50-60% of 1 RM, done as fast as possible with 35-40 seconds rest between sets) + a heavy triple (lower than 3RM), then speed bench (followed by a heavy triple) and THEN either 5x5 deads (less than 5RM) OR speed deads (same as speed squats). however, the latter option is too taxing to give me the benefits i need from speed work so i don't do that anymore. in short, it depends on what your goals are, your recovery ability and also how much volume. BTW, i also either squat/dead and do GMs on 3 other days in the week.

 

[Illuminati]

about-
squat: 4x6
deads: 4x3
weighted to near failure but not quite there.

with that rep scheme, and going to near failure, you shoud just alternate them every two weeks.
i.e. weeks 1/2 squats
weeks 3/4 deadlifts

 

[TheOak84]

id say for example

squat 5x5
dead 1x5

or vise verse