Squat and DL...when during training?

[kiosk]

If I train Squats or DL before anything else then am wiped out for anything after....and if I train squats at the end I dont feel like am doing them justice enough like from fresh start...how do you do it?

 

[string_bean00]

I prefer any compound movement first, and assistance work after.

 

[BiggT]

Train the hardest stuff first, they require the most energy. If you squat and you physically can't do another leg movement, thats good, everything for 'legs' other than squats are a waste of time anyway.....if you do full-body workouts and are wiped out after squating first, then you just need better conditioning and work capacity.

My general rule is: olympic lifts before everything, squats before everything except olympic lifts. If you are wedded to the 'bodypart' splits, squat first on leg day (unless you do an olympic lift) and DL first on back day (unless you do an olympic lift).

The key to progress is to get better at big lifts, if you do, for example, lat pulldowns and cable rows with 37 different attachments each, then deadlift, you're missing the big picture. The bigger deadlift will equal the bigger back and you'll see how disposable all the 'fluff' work truly is.

 

[blueta2]

Train the hardest stuff first, they require the most energy. If you squat and you physically can't do another leg movement, thats good, everything for 'legs' other than squats are a waste of time anyway.....if you do full-body workouts and are wiped out after squating first, then you just need better conditioning and work capacity.

My general rule is: olympic lifts before everything, squats before everything except olympic lifts. If you are wedded to the 'bodypart' splits, squat first on leg day (unless you do an olympic lift) and DL first on back day (unless you do an olympic lift).

The key to progress is to get better at big lifts, if you do, for example, lat pulldowns and cable rows with 37 different attachments each, then deadlift, you're missing the big picture. The bigger deadlift will equal the bigger back and you'll see how disposable all the 'fluff' work truly is.

Ok but can this go the other way also.......If you do squat first, you are depleted to do the rest of your work out? Do you really think it has to do with better conditioning?!
When I used to do legs first, I was "spent" and had a hard time doing the rest of my full body work-out.
Some say do not do cardio b4 a work-out b/c it will tire you for the weights portion of a work-out, so what's the diff?!
When you say "fluff" work...what do u mean!? Like doing bi's and tri's?!

 

[Protobuilder]

I'll bet you a million dollars your squat & DL workout involves you going to failure and/or pushing high volume, right? Try spreading the volume out over several workout sessions, so you're squatting 3x/wk rather than once, and during each session, walk away from the squat rack w/ a little gas left in teh tank. You don't need to pummel yourself (and your recovery ability) into oblivion in order to make progress.

I used to do that too. I'd start w/ squat or DL and push to failure and then some and by the time I finished, I was too wiped out to do anything else. Now, I push 5 hard sets, take a short rest, and I'm ready to go to my next movements.

 

[blueta2]

I'll bet you a million dollars your squat & DL workout involves you going to failure and/or pushing high volume, right? Try spreading the volume out over several workout sessions, so you're squatting 3x/wk rather than once, and during each session, walk away from the squat rack w/ a little gas left in teh tank. You don't need to pummel yourself (and your recovery ability) into oblivion in order to make progress.

I used to do that too. I'd start w/ squat or DL and push to failure and then some and by the time I finished, I was too wiped out to do anything else. Now, I push 5 hard sets, take a short rest, and I'm ready to go to my next movements.

is this directed at me? Ok I guess so...no I never go to failure. I just find that once I do legs, my body us shaking and tired. I can finish my work-out, but not with the same "pep" at if I did legs last!
I have to admit, I am not a big eater either. I don't ever go above prob 1300 cal a day. I have a hard time eating so maybe if I ate more I would have more stength?!

 

[Protobuilder]

I was talking to the OP actually. LoL

 

[BiggT]

Ok but can this go the other way also.......If you do squat first, you are depleted to do the rest of your work out? Do you really think it has to do with better conditioning?!
When I used to do legs first, I was "spent" and had a hard time doing the rest of my full body work-out.
Some say do not do cardio b4 a work-out b/c it will tire you for the weights portion of a work-out, so what's the diff?!
When you say "fluff" work...what do u mean!? Like doing bi's and tri's?!

The kind of fatigue from cardio is different, and if your goals are added muscle, it is counter-productive to (pardon my language, lol) blow your load on cardio first. The important thing is progression of the compound lifts. If you squat and are too tired to do one-legged swiss ball rotating extensions, who cares? The only thing that matters is that you progressively get better at squats......if you run 3 miles at a level 7 and then try to squat and you are too drained to squat moe weight than you did the week before, then you're not going to gradually become a better squatter, and in turn gradually get more muscular legs.

Protobuilder is right, not working to total failure and leaving a little bit left in the tank so you can add 5-10lbs the next session should allow you to not feel so demolished.

"Fluff" is anything isolation. I always tell people, add 100lbs to your barbell row and 200lbs to your deadlift, and stop doing pulldowns with every attachment in the gym, and your back will grow.

Honestly, if you squat and are then too tired to do a flat bench or a row, then you have a horrible work capacity, even if you blow yourself out squatting, you should be able to take 5-10 minutes and be able to bench. The only excepion would be a true 20-rep breathing squat with a 12-rep max or something along those lines.

But to the original poster, working to failure sounds 'hardcore', but it won't allow you to keep adding weight to the bar each workout for as long, and it will cripple your long-term progress prematurely.

 

[blueta2]

The kind of fatigue from cardio is different, and if your goals are added muscle, it is counter-productive to (pardon my language, lol) blow your load on cardio first. The important thing is progression of the compound lifts. If you squat and are too tired to do one-legged swiss ball rotating extensions, who cares? The only thing that matters is that you progressively get better at squats......if you run 3 miles at a level 7 and then try to squat and you are too drained to squat moe weight than you did the week before, then you're not going to gradually become a better squatter, and in turn gradually get more muscular legs.

Protobuilder is right, not working to total failure and leaving a little bit left in the tank so you can add 5-10lbs the next session should allow you to not feel so demolished.

"Fluff" is anything isolation. I always tell people, add 100lbs to your barbell row and 200lbs to your deadlift, and stop doing pulldowns with every attachment in the gym, and your back will grow.

Honestly, if you squat and are then too tired to do a flat bench or a row, then you have a horrible work capacity, even if you blow yourself out squatting, you should be able to take 5-10 minutes and be able to bench. The only excepion would be a true 20-rep breathing squat with a 12-rep max or something along those lines.

But to the original poster, working to failure sounds 'hardcore', but it won't allow you to keep adding weight to the bar each workout for as long, and it will cripple your progress sooner than later.

Thanks T.....I do have some of "my load" left after doing legs, but I was just always under the notion that doing them first would not be the best but to keep legs for last so you have strength for the rest of your body.
I guess a fully fueled squat is better than a fly or a press or a squeeze here or there..haha !
My boyfriend always said what u guys are saying and I told him he was wrong...now must go back and grovel and tell him he was right...haha !

Thanks guys

 

[BiggT]

blueta,

Also, with full-body workouts, or even upper/lower splits, the key is to do one or two tops movements that have a lot of quality or 'bang for your buck'.....if you have a full-body workout where you squat and then do 78 sets of leg press, hack squat, leg curl, leg extension, 1 leg leg press, lunges, and walking lunges....of course you'll be spent for anything else.

When you train movements multiple times a week, something full-body training is condusive to, you can spread the workload out over the week too. You can squat on mon and fri and do lunges on Wed for example.

 

[blueta2]

blueta,

Also, with full-body workouts, or even upper/lower splits, the key is to do one or two tops movements that have a lot of quality or 'bang for your buck'.....if you have a full-body workout where you squat and then do 78 sets of leg press, hack squat, leg curl, leg extension, 1 leg leg press, lunges, and walking lunges....of course you'll be spent for anything else.

When you train movements multiple times a week, something full-body training is condusive to, you can spread the workload out over the week too. You can squat on mon and fri and do lunges on Wed for example.

Good adivse.....very true! 78 sets of legs press...wow..hehe ! I only do 77 sets..hehe !

GOod stuff...I am new to the full body work out thing...always did the 2 body parts per day thing.....so all good info..thanks again !

 

[kiosk]

wow....lot good feedback. Well I actually dont go to failure on either Squats or DL, i think thats dangerous, I keep form very strict on those two and when I feel my form giving up I stop.
I just seem to be "tired" in general after those lifts....and actually I am already sort of ok with my leg size, I just do SQ and DL because they are good in general but I am trying to grow my upper body more than lower (but yes I know they go proportionally in hand).
So should I do less sets of SQ and DL (ie. less volume in general for those two)????

 

[eat big]

I usually do Squats the SLDL's. I find that they compliment each other very well.