Soy vs. Clomid, Nolvadex

[variation]

ok ok, so clomid and nolvadex are just very weak synthetic estrogens right? and they work by competing with estrogen in the body for place on the estrogen receptors, right? and then since the weaker synthetic estrogen has place, it doesn't cause bad side effects that actual potent estrogen would.

ok, now if you look at alot of the research on phytoestrogens in soy, they are similarily very weak estrogens, that have been found to bind to estrogen receptors, preventing more potent side effect causing estrogens to bind... now.. if this is the case, does anyone know how exactly these phytoestrogens that are found in soy and other plant products (marijuana?) , compare to the synthetic estrogens in clomid or nolvadex.

 

[Rich_d]

Gotta bump this

Any truth here. Post cycle?.... just get absolutly stoned for 3 weeks?? surely not!

 

[variation]

well, arnold always smoked pot, and never used any anti-e's with dbol,and he never got gyno, is this why? who knows...

maybe if no one has any solid evidence on this, when I do my cycle in the fall, I'll just drink 2L of chocolate soy milk every day throughout cycle and hit the soy hard 3 weeks post cycle, and maybe smoke a few joints... and see what the results are.

 

[enzymus]

?????

Pot and Soy to prevent gyno????? Whats happening to this board???

 

[Cloud-X]

It's TRUE!!!

ok i was talking to nelson last night, by email.. (yes I mean nelson montana)... Now nelson said you can use soy as an anti estrogen and the theory variation state is correct, Nelson says to consume about 50% of your protein from soy sources, and post cycle it's even more important to consume it, and you can even up the dosage higher then that, he recommends soy over clomid any day, and says that soy does a better job at blocking estrogen from binding to the (ER's).

 

[variation]

good to hear some more insight onto this and happy to see nelson agree's with my theory, anyone else back this theory?

I suppose if no one has tried it before though, the only real way to test will be to do it? I wasn't sure from that post Cloud-X if nelson has tried this before or just saying that it should work???

 

[variation]

new info

ok I found some new information on this....
as wel all know nolvadex is tamoxifen, just clearing that up for
some that may have been unsure.
in the following study it appears as soy is more effective then
nolvadex in reducing estrogenic growth! but the 2 combined
makes for an even more powerful anti-e.

FROM SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN --

Eating Soy Boosts Tamoxifen's Powers


Eating more soy may boost the effects of tamoxifen, a drug that prevents breast cancer in high-risk women, according to a new study presented at the annual meeting of the American Association of Cancer Research in New Orleans on March 28.

Researchers from the University of Illinois at Chicago investigated carcinogen-induced tumors in rats and found that tamoxifen reduced them by 29 percent, from 7.9 tumors per rat to 5.6 tumors on average. Soy alone reduced the number of tumors by 37 percent. The interesting thing they found was that by combining soy and tamoxifen, the tumors were reduced even further, by an impressive 62 percent.



----

SOURCE -- http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000EF0DE-FCFF-1C5A-B882809EC588ED9F

 

[variation]

and some more info

I found this info right here on elitefitness.com

The potent phyto-estrogen Daidzein is a key isoflavone found in soy, and is structurally a very weak "pseudo-estrogen" (about 1000 times weaker than the body's primary estrogen estradiol). This is good news to the bodybuilder because weak estrogens like Daidzein will compete with stronger estrogens like estradiol for available receptor sites to "bind" to. By binding to the receptor sites Daidzein then "blocks" the stronger estrogens from binding to and activating receptor sites. With the Daidzein isoflavone attached, estrogen receptor sites remain inactive. This inactivity further minimizes the negative effects of estrogen in the body.

A recent study at the Nanjing Dept. of Veterinary Medicine, looked at the effects of Diadzein administration on muscle growth and hormone levels in lab rats. The study used 66 rats (28 male, 12 female, and 26 castrated male), all 50 days old. (1.)

The researchers administered the Diadzein for 16 days continuously. All the rats were fed the same diet. In the male rats who received Diadzein, lean body weight gain increased 14.7% over the control group who did not receive supplemental Diadzein. Serum testosterone, Beta-endorphin and growth hormone all increased as well.


SOURCE -- http://www.elitefitness.com/articledata/efn/102500.html

 

[variation]

also I realize these studies were done on rats, and effects aren't gauranteed to be the same on humans, but I think in theory this should work, anyone wanna test?

 

[EL GAUCHO]

Well....I drink Soya Milk EVERY day. Have done for over a year.
Should I be feeling anything anti-estrogenic?
Is this gonna be a bad idea to drink during a cycle?
EG