Should Holocaust Denial be taught in public school?

[75th]

It hasn't happened, to my knowledge, but... hypothetical situation:

Suppose a teacher in a ultra conservative school district has a request from a significant number of parents to teach that the Holocaust is only a theory and that there is a strong theory it never happened. Based on the allowance of Intelligent Design, a non-scientific theory, to be taught in high school science classes, what logic would restrict the Denial community from having a book by the Historical Review taught alongside Elie Wiesel and Anne Frank?

Like Intelligent Design, while no major published scholars debate the validity of the Holocause, the movement has it's own "scholars", some with Ph.D.s in history, who argue their case[s*]. (*Holocaust denial takes many forms- some deniers only have beefs with the numbers, others concede it happened but that Hitler didn't know about it, etc..)

To those who argue in favor of Intelligent Design's inclusion, what would you use to justify the exclusion of Holocaust Denial in the same school?

 

[EnderJE]

Why teach either?

 

[1_more_rep]

they should either teach holocaust denial or not speak of the holocaust at all. Either way - teaching of it or denying it; it will end up with religions involved and public school wont be happy. so i say don't speak of it at all. or teach denial of it.

 

[redguru]

Where did all those Jews from the Polish ghettos go? On vacation? Ice Capades? Sorry, I cannot believe anyone would deny the Holocaust occuring. One of the patron saints of Poland, Maximilian Kolbe, a priest, died at Auschwitz. There was an escape at the camp, and the puniushment for escape was the starvation of 10 other prisoners. One of the men selected to die cried about the loss of his family, and Max Kolbe stepped forward. The priest died in his stead. he did not starve to death, he was the last one remaining alive of the 10 and was given a lethal injection of carbolic acid. His body was burned in the crematorium.

Franciszek Gajowniczek, the man who's place he took, later states:

"I could only thank him with my eyes. I was stunned and could hardly grasp what was going on. The immensity of it: I, the condemned, am to live and someone else willingly and voluntarily offers his life for me - a stranger. Is this some dream?

I was put back into my place without having had time to say anything to Maximilian Kolbe. I was saved. And I owe to him the fact that I could tell you all this. The news quickly spread all round the camp. It was the first and the last time that such an incident happened in the whole history of Auschwitz.

For a long time I felt remorse when I thought of Maximilian. By allowing myself to be saved, I had signed his death warrant. But now, on reflection, I understood that a man like him could not have done otherwise. Perhaps he thought that as a priest his place was beside the condemned men to help them keep hope. In fact he was with them to the last."​

 

[jackangel]

ugh, i was all set to give the tempting and simple answer: no.

but a proper treatment of the question is too involved. in other words, more than 3 sentences.

i just ate a banana.

 

[redguru]

The simple answer is the refutation of the Holocaust is an attempt by bigots to rewrite history. It would be akin to the US denying slavery or the pacification of the Native American population.

Intelligent Design has no place in public education, either. The "theory" as taught is religious dogma couched in scientific jargon. It makes no sense.

 

[75th]

Where did all those Jews from the Polish ghettos go? On vacation? Ice Capades? Sorry, I cannot believe anyone would deny the Holocaust occuring. One of the patron saints of Poland, Maximilian Kolbe, a priest, died at Auschwitz. There was an escape at the camp, and the puniushment for escape was the starvation of 10 other prisoners. One of the men selected to die cried about the loss of his family, and Max Kolbe stepped forward. The priest died in his stead. he did not starve to death, he was the last one remaining alive of the 10 and was given a lethal injection of carbolic acid. His body was burned in the crematorium.

Franciszek Gajowniczek, the man who's place he took, later states:

"I could only thank him with my eyes. I was stunned and could hardly grasp what was going on. The immensity of it: I, the condemned, am to live and someone else willingly and voluntarily offers his life for me - a stranger. Is this some dream?

I was put back into my place without having had time to say anything to Maximilian Kolbe. I was saved. And I owe to him the fact that I could tell you all this. The news quickly spread all round the camp. It was the first and the last time that such an incident happened in the whole history of Auschwitz.

For a long time I felt remorse when I thought of Maximilian. By allowing myself to be saved, I had signed his death warrant. But now, on reflection, I understood that a man like him could not have done otherwise. Perhaps he thought that as a priest his place was beside the condemned men to help them keep hope. In fact he was with them to the last."​

Make no mistake, I am not one of the folks who thinks that one day the Holocaust was created out of thin air by some crazy Israeli.

This is just for arguments sake, since the whole "intelligent design" thing has been going around lately.

 

[pintoca]

Holocaust Denial is punished with Jail here... no questions asked. The same as exhibit of Nazi paraphernalia (flags, the "Heil" salute, etc)

Also, the name Adolf is formally forbidden here (yep, the Govt has a say in what you can name your kids... 2 years ago the stopped a child being named Osama Bin Laden)... The idea is that you cannot chose a name that:

1. Does not identify the kids gender
2. Will cause future embarrasment to the kid

 

[Hiatussin]

I have looked deeply into this subject and my conclusion is that the holocaust is not fake, but strongly exaggerated. The cruelty of wardens has been exaggerated to demon status, the body count has been beefed up to an extremely unlikely 6 million.

There is certainly no debate about it that Adolf Hitler and his WANTED to kill as many European Jews as possible, and the German people by majority agreed this would be a suitable policy. I don´t see why the exact number they succeeded to kill is all that relevant. They wanted a genocide, many speeches publicly show this, and they tried.

6 million is impossible. Of those, at first 4 million were attributed to Auschwitz. Then when historians scratched their head after the liberation storm lied down they saw just how small the camp was, for how short it had been open, and what a small capacity the cremation ovens had. the number was laughable and the memorial marble stone at the entrance was simply changed from saying this is where 4 million jews found their death to 1.5 million. That´s still a very high estimate.

however the symbolic big 6 million number in all the history books was never changed.

It was a wild estimate to express extreme cruelty, since then nobody in the mainstream has wanted to open the can of worms of correcting it, because people would sense it as excusing Nazism to take from it´s historic blame.

I think children in school should learn in general, that history is written only by those who won, that stories evolve from mouth to mouth, objective sources are rare or even just theoretical and that it is a humanitarian science, more than an empirical one.

My history teacher in HS already carefully dared to question the 6 million number, saying it is perhaps too high and noted that it is/was in the Isreali´s interest to stress the issue. I never realised how "daring" this was at the time.

A Belgian dissident by the name of Siegfried Verbeke is a stubborn holocaust denier but he´s also a clear anti-semite, he is currently sitting out two years of jailtime for not renouncing his holocaust denial.

I think that´s a crying shame on free speech and an action that probably strengthens his small movement, but whatever.

 

[Hiatussin]

Holocaust Denial is punished with Jail here... no questions asked. The same as exhibit of Nazi paraphernalia (flags, the "Heil" salute, etc)

Also, the name Adolf is formally forbidden here (yep, the Govt has a say in what you can name your kids... 2 years ago the stopped a child being named Osama Bin Laden)... The idea is that you cannot chose a name that:

1. Does not identify the kids gender
2. Will cause future embarrasment to the kid

I think post-war Germany is far too full of self-sorry pussies, and this is one effect of it.

In the USA you can say anything anytime anywhere (except stuff about bombs when you´re in an airport) and I find that noble.

That there no good reason to fly a nazi flag is no reason to ban it. The whole idea of freedom of speech is allowing expressions when you dont agree with them

 

[mountain muscle]

I have looked deeply into this subject and my conclusion is that the holocaust is not fake, but strongly exaggerated. The cruelty of wardens has been exaggerated to demon status, the body count has been beefed up to an extremely unlikely 6 million.

There is certainly no debate about it that Adolf Hitler and his WANTED to kill as many European Jews as possible, and the German people by majority agreed this would be a suitable policy. I don´t see why the exact number they succeeded to kill is all that relevant. They wanted a genocide, many speeches publicly show this, and they tried.

6 million is impossible. Of those, at first 4 million were attributed to Auschwitz. Then when historians scratched their head after the liberation storm lied down they saw just how small the camp was, for how short it had been open, and what a small capacity the cremation ovens had. the number was laughable and the memorial marble stone at the entrance was simply changed from saying this is where 4 million jews found their death to 1.5 million. That´s still a very high estimate.

however the symbolic big 6 million number in all the history books was never changed.

It was a wild estimate to express extreme cruelty, since then nobody in the mainstream has wanted to open the can of worms of correcting it, because people would sense it as excusing Nazism to take from it´s historic blame.

I think children in school should learn in general, that history is written only by those who won, that stories evolve from mouth to mouth, objective sources are rare or even just theoretical and that it is a humanitarian science, more than an empirical one.

My history teacher in HS already carefully dared to question the 6 million number, saying it is perhaps too high and noted that it is/was in the Isreali´s interest to stress the issue. I never realised how "daring" this was at the time.

A Belgian dissident by the name of Siegfried Verbeke is a stubborn holocaust denier but he´s also a clear anti-semite, he is currently sitting out two years of jailtime for not renouncing his holocaust denial.

I think that´s a crying shame on free speech and an action that probably strengthens his small movement, but whatever.

I am not sure but are you denying the holocaust? What interest does anyone have in the exact number? It was in the millions and unspeakable in the atrocity. Millions. Think about that.

 

[Hengst]

Holocaust denial is stupid.

BUT - Do any of you know how many Soviets died in WWII ? Something like 20 million. How about Poles? In all, around 50 Million people were killed in WWII (including the jews) While I do not (and would never) deny the holocaust happened I think it is important to put the numbers in perspective.

I do believe that WWII (and WWI for that matter) were fratricidal wars. Something like 100 Million people were killed in the great wars of the 20th century, the vast majority white europeans. This is an aspect of history that is minimized and consequently the teaching of these wars is reduced to the holocaust when that was never the cause.

 

[HiDnGoD]

Don't forget, the Holocaust wasn't just about the Jews. Therre were also many others thrown in to the camps. Blacks, gays, gypsy's, social misfits. These others may help to expand the numbers a bit. Also don't forget, the Russians in the teens & '20's executed a large number of their own populations. IMO they were worse than the Nazi's.
I don't think denial should be taught, because, like Hi said, no matter what the numbers, a systematic execution of an identifiable group was underway.

 

[AAP]

Don't forget, the Holocaust wasn't just about the Jews. Therre were also many others thrown in to the camps. Blacks, gays, gypsy's, social misfits. These others may help to expand the numbers a bit. Also don't forget, the Russians in the teens & '20's executed a large number of their own populations. IMO they were worse than the Nazi's.
I don't think denial should be taught, because, like Hi said, no matter what the numbers, a systematic execution of an identifiable group was underway.

An old friend of mine is from Austria. His family has lived there for 8 generations. Big numbers. They are black. I once asked his mother about the harassment they had during Nazi occupation and they said there was none at all. Apparently blacks and gypses in Austria were not bothered at all as Hitler wanted his crimes committed further away than one of his strongholds. I found it bizarre.

 

[milo hobgoblin]

Hiatussin is correct.. and many HONEST historians will admit that 6 million was an exaggeration. NO ONE is denying what happened.. simply that it was exaggerated to garner sympathy for the Isreali state.. which worked well..

they still milk that cow dry 60+ years later.


Its amazing.. anyonme even question the numbers.. or any issue regarding the holocaust, they are immediately labelled a skinhead or neo nazi.

Did it ever occur to some of you to look past your politically correct brainwashing and occasionally ask questions?

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Holocaust denial is stupid.

BUT - Do any of you know how many Soviets died in WWII ? Something like 20 million. How about Poles? In all, around 50 Million people were killed in WWII (including the jews) While I do not (and would never) deny the holocaust happened I think it is important to put the numbers in perspective.

I do believe that WWII (and WWI for that matter) were fratricidal wars. Something like 100 Million people were killed in the great wars of the 20th century, the vast majority white europeans. This is an aspect of history that is minimized and consequently the teaching of these wars is reduced to the holocaust when that was never the cause.

You might enjoy the book "Koba the Dread" by Martin Amis, largely about Stalin.

 

[The Shadow]

Hitler Hitler Hitler.....no one mentions Stalin in the same breath...

 

[manny78]

Holocaust Denial is punished with Jail here... no questions asked. The same as exhibit of Nazi paraphernalia (flags, the "Heil" salute, etc)

Also, the name Adolf is formally forbidden here (yep, the Govt has a say in what you can name your kids... 2 years ago the stopped a child being named Osama Bin Laden)... The idea is that you cannot chose a name that:

1. Does not identify the kids gender
2. Will cause future embarrasment to the kid

It's must be a sad country. To lock up people for their opinion is pathetic. That's what they used to do in USSR and they still do in Cuba.

BTW if the school is private they should have the right to teach whatever they want since it's none of my business. Parents have the final word, if they think Holocaust denial is just wrong they will send their kids elsewhere and make the school lose tuitions.... public schools are different.

 

[manny78]

Hitler Hitler Hitler.....no one mentions Stalin in the same breath...

because Stalin is an embarassment for us. We helped him out. We sent convoys (in which we lost thousands of sailors) filled with weapons. We refused to sign an amnesty with germany so they could just focus on the eastern front. At the end of the war, we even sold him some Gnome turboreactors (same as those found in the Gloster Meteor) so they could developp the Mig-15 and challenge our Jet fighters during the Korean war. Stalin is that love/hate relationship that just turned bad and which you just dont wanna hear about it anymore.

 

[pitbullstl]

NO ONE is denying what happened.. simply that it was exaggerated to garner sympathy for the Isreali state.. which worked well..

they still milk that cow dry 60+ years later.

One mans exaggeration, is another family's sorrow. After studying the Holocaust in a college course, and being of an orthodox/conservative Jewish background, I can tell you that 6 million was more than likely not mathematically possible. No ones milking any cow to garner sympathy for the state of Israel. Facts unfortunately often get blurred when surrounding plights of human interest.


It's a very basic human emotion, and as long as there are survivors/family members of survivors the story should be retold.

Obviously I am a Jew, and there are members of my extended family that were/are affected by the Holocaust, so my sensitivities are no doubt greater than yours, or most on this board. However, unless someone brings the subject up, you won't find me discussing, or for that matter even thinking of it.

Imagine if you can, someone coming into your city, capturing you, taking you to prison camp, starving you, pissing on you, and the smoking you in a crematorium.......now imagine that happening to your grandparents, parents or children......then ask yourself......how long?? How long before you should forget?

 

[manny78]

One mans exaggeration, is another family's sorrow. After studying the Holocaust in a college course, and being of an orthodox/conservative Jewish background, I can tell you that 6 million was more than likely not mathematically possible. No ones milking any cow to garner sympathy for the state of Israel. Facts unfortunately often get blurred when surrounding plights of human interest.


It's a very basic human emotion, and as long as there are survivors/family members of survivors the story should be retold.

Obviously I am a Jew, and there are members of my extended family that were/are affected by the Holocaust, so my sensitivities are no doubt greater than yours, or most on this board. However, unless someone brings the subject up, you won't find me discussing, or for that matter even thinking of it.

Imagine if you can, someone coming into your city, capturing you, taking you to prison camp, starving you, pissing on you, and the smoking you in a crematorium.......now imagine that happening to your grandparents, parents or children......then ask yourself......how long?? How long before you should forget?

In happened in Rwanda and soon as as someone tries to compare both, he's bashed by the jewish community. Same with Pol Pot who killed/starved to death almost 1/3 of his population, or Mao Tse toung, Turksish/Armenians. Sorry but IMHO, the Tutsi/Hutu massacre is a lot more disgusting and scarry since it happened in a shorter time frame, with barbaric methods and with the UN watching quietly.

 

[Becoming]

I think children in school should learn in general, that history is written only by those who won, that stories evolve from mouth to mouth, objective sources are rare or even just theoretical and that it is a humanitarian science, more than an empirical one.

....

 

[milo hobgoblin]

pitbullstl.. I have no doubt it was a horrid experience. and I dont think the average American jew uses it as some sort of sympathy tool..

But isreal sure does.. and many of the media centric jews in this country anytime they are offended.

I have to ask though.. jews have historically been persecuted in almost EVERY society in which they have lived.. they seem to purposely segregate themseleves and always have, they are extremely racist and culturist as a group (ask 90% of practicing jews what their family would think of them marrying a christian or black).

Has it occurred to the Jewish culture they make themselves an easy target? Maybe "try" integrating.. seems to have worked well for American jews.

and NO Im not implying ANYTHING in history was ever "deserved"

 

[pitbullstl]

In happened in Rwanda and soon as as someone tries to compare both, he's bashed by the jewish community. Same with Pol Pot who killed/starved to death almost 1/3 of his population, or Mao Tse toung, Turksish/Armenians. Sorry but IMHO, the Tutsi/Hutu massacre is a lot more disgusting and scarry since it happened in a shorter time frame, with barbaric methods and with the UN watching quietly.

Being part of the Jewish Community, I can tell you that I would bash no one for comparing/contrasting Rwanda and Holocaust Germany. Genocide is certainly not secular to the Jews.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Hitler Hitler Hitler.....no one mentions Stalin in the same breath...

Here is why:

The idea of Communism is an idea of perfecting society: creating a perfect world out of imperfect people.

It failed, and it failed on the greatest scale in human history: the Red Terror and the Great Terror left 20 million dead BEFORE WW2, which killed maybe another 20M.

Stalin's reign probably crushed 50 million russians - he makes Hitler look like a common street thug.

Communism's abject failure - its destruction of more people and more lives than any other system anywhere - is a final refutaton of the idea that society can be perfected.

We don't like to admit our shortcomings and imperfectibility, so Stalin's massacres and the abject failure of Communism is swept under the rug. In some ways, we see the Russian killing machine as all of our fault.

Hitler was a madman. Stalin was a mirror. That's the difference.

 

[pitbullstl]

pitbullstl.. I have no doubt it was a horrid experience. and I dont think the average American jew uses it as some sort of sympathy tool..

But isreal sure does.. and many of the media centric jews in this country anytime they are offended.

I have to ask though.. jews have historically been persecuted in almost EVERY society in which they have lived.. they seem to purposely segregate themseleves and always have, they are extremely racist and culturist as a group (ask 90% of practicing jews what their family would think of them marrying a christian or black).

Has it occurred to the Jewish culture they make themselves an easy target? Maybe "try" integrating.. seems to have worked well for American jews.

and NO Im not implying ANYTHING in history was ever "deserved"

<----------------
Integration King

I married a Southern Baptist. It wasn't easy at first, but boy do my grandfather and grandmother love their great-grandkids....and my wife.

On a whole though, your statement couldn't be more true.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Being part of the Jewish Community, I can tell you that I would bash no one for comparing/contrasting Rwanda and Holocaust Germany. Genocide is certainly not secular to the Jews.

Historians would bash you, though. The Holocaust is the only time in recorded history that a war effort was sidetracked to commit genocide.

War resources were pulled off of the fronts. Resources were used to kill Jews (and others) which would have strengthened the war effort.

Perhaps most ironically, allof the developers of the atomic bomb were Jews. Without the threat of the Holocaust, Hitler would have perhaps had the bomb first.

 

[pitbullstl]

Historians would bash you, though. The Holocaust is the only time in recorded history that a war effort was sidetracked to commit genocide.

War resources were pulled off of the fronts. Resources were used to kill Jews (and others) which would have strengthened the war effort.

Perhaps most ironically, allof the developers of the atomic bomb were Jews. Without the threat of the Holocaust, Hitler would have perhaps had the bomb first.

Lucky for me, my disection of the Holocaust is wholy limited to EF.

 

[Dial_tone]

too early in the AM to get this deep.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Lucky for me, my disection of the Holocaust is wholy limited to EF.

LOL, my brother is an orthodox jew and his wife's family is European, I've met some interesting people.

 

[ChefWide]

LOL, my brother is an orthodox jew and his wife's family is European, I've met some interesting people.

Umm.. I used to live on Ile St.Louis, the jewish quarter in Paris.. bunch of European Yids in that thar neighborhood...

Ever been to Sam Rosenbergs in paris? A MUST see, at least once in a lifetime.

 

[big4life]

Anyone who would even think to deny the holocaust should have to listen to a survivor tell what they went through, the horrors that they witnessed. To have a frail old lady sit in a chair and tell you about it makes any movie on the subject pale in comparison.

 

[manny78]

Btw, if we forbid Holocaust denial, should we also forbid Bible denial ? Not the same, but that's the problem with freedom of speech or for that matter, any rights. Once you start restricting someone's right, it's like an opening a can of worm.

 

[75th]

Btw, if we forbid Holocaust denial, should we also forbid Bible denial ? Not the same, but that's the problem with freedom of speech or for that matter, any rights. Once you start restricting someone's right, it's like an opening a can of worm.

Exactamundo.

 

[Sub-Zero]

One mans exaggeration, is another family's sorrow. After studying the Holocaust in a college course, and being of an orthodox/conservative Jewish background, I can tell you that 6 million was more than likely not mathematically possible. No ones milking any cow to garner sympathy for the state of Israel. Facts unfortunately often get blurred when surrounding plights of human interest.


It's a very basic human emotion, and as long as there are survivors/family members of survivors the story should be retold.

Obviously I am a Jew, and there are members of my extended family that were/are affected by the Holocaust, so my sensitivities are no doubt greater than yours, or most on this board. However, unless someone brings the subject up, you won't find me discussing, or for that matter even thinking of it.

Imagine if you can, someone coming into your city, capturing you, taking you to prison camp, starving you, pissing on you, and the smoking you in a crematorium.......now imagine that happening to your grandparents, parents or children......then ask yourself......how long?? How long before you should forget?

i think its been long enough to forget...

same with slavery, i forgot that before i was born

 

[pitbullstl]

i think its been long enough to forget...

same with slavery, i forgot that before i was born

Those who forget or can't learn from the past, are doomed to repeat it.

 

[HiDnGoD]

Anyone who would even think to deny the holocaust should have to listen to a survivor tell what they went through, the horrors that they witnessed. To have a frail old lady sit in a chair and tell you about it makes any movie on the subject pale in comparison.

When I was stationed in Germany, we went to a tank range called Bergen Hohne, near a camp called Bergen Belsen. I went there to visit & what I saw horrified me. There were Earthen monuments to physically represent masses of bodies that were killed there & there were many piles. There were pictures, which I can thankfully barely remember. To look at them was like looking at a horror movie, just kinda scary. But when you stopped & thought of the people & families just piled up like cord wood, well, I wept. I still get choked up. & 40 yrs later the U.N. stands aside & condones by it's inaction, the same thing in Africa.
I have to wonder where our inhumanity to each other will eventually take us?

 

[Scotsman]

Those who forget or can't learn from the past, are doomed to repeat it.

AMEN to that, things like this should never be forgotten nor be allowed to be repeated. Things that are studied and understood and expressed tend to help a society learn from it's mistakes and hopefully help keep them from repeating it.

As far as the original question:

No they shouldn't be allowed to teach holocaust denial in school since it is pretty much an accepted fact that it happened even if the details are in dispute.

No they shouldn't be allowed to teach creative design in public schools because it is a direct violation of the separation of church and state that was implaced to prevent any one religion from ruling our nation. Besides ID isn't a proven fact and can't even be seriously discussed on a scientific level. Creationism is creationism I don't care what wrapper you try and sell it in.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[curling]

The simple answer is the refutation of the Holocaust is an attempt by bigots to rewrite history. It would be akin to the US denying slavery or the pacification of the Native American population.

Intelligent Design has no place in public education, either. The "theory" as taught is religious dogma couched in scientific jargon. It makes no sense.

You know many scientist have now switched to intelligent design because there are SO MANY flaws in the big bang and evilution theories that it can not be denied that someone very very intelligent created this world. You have to be a complete dumbass to believe that all of what you see and hear was a result of an explosion. It makes no sense it is IDIOTIC. Why do we want to make our kids dumb with stupid bs like evilution. Heck teach both and let the kids decide but evilutionist couldn't handle that because they know the kids can see through the bs of evilution if given the choice.

 

[Saintinistic]

When in education, I believe you should teach all viewpoints to an argument or theory.

All points of view, then the student can decide to research further or accept or deny the areas s/he feels stongly about.

Though personal/family/religious bias will eventually dictate what angle to believe.

But all angles should be discussed if it has to be discussed at all.

 

[HiDnGoD]

You know many scientist have now switched to intelligent design because there are SO MANY flaws in the big bang and evilution theories that it can not be denied that someone very very intelligent created this world. You have to be a complete dumbass to believe that all of what you see and hear was a result of an explosion. It makes no sense it is IDIOTIC. Why do we want to make our kids dumb with stupid bs like evilution. Heck teach both and let the kids decide but evilutionist couldn't handle that because they know the kids can see through the bs of evilution if given the choice.

Oh, oh, here we go!
How about we start another thread to go over the religion thing AGAIN, & leave this one the solemnity it deserves?

 

[ChefWide]

Btw, if we forbid Holocaust denial, should we also forbid Bible denial ? Not the same, but that's the problem with freedom of speech or for that matter, any rights. Once you start restricting someone's right, it's like an opening a can of worm.

Horsehockey. Should science class in public school teach Pyramid Power? Limmited time, limmitted resources, teach the core realities, teach them well. You want to teach the bible? Go to sunday school. Secular school is exaclty that.

The argument that creationism should be taught in public schools is neither here nor there, if you want to open the already collapsing public school system to that, then you have to and i mean HAVE TO teach the Koran, The Eight Fold Path, Taosism, Animism, Judaisism... add a half dozen more isms and you will get my point: In science class: teach science. In history class, you teach history as outlined by the school system. is it every possible fringe version of history? no, its the one aggreed upon by the good folks you voted onto the school board: you dont like what they teach? Get on the school board and make your case.

 

[curling]

Oh, oh, here we go!
How about we start another thread to go over the religion thing AGAIN, & leave this one the solemnity it deserves?

It is not religion it is common sense. And I thought this was the whole point of the thread in the first place.

 

[HiDnGoD]

It is not religion it is common sense. And I thought this was the whole point of the thread in the first place.

Go start another thread. This one is about the holocaust, which is obviously not common sense.

 

[seizer]

You know many scientist have now switched to intelligent design because there are SO MANY flaws in the big bang and evilution theories that it can not be denied that someone very very intelligent created this world. You have to be a complete dumbass to believe that all of what you see and hear was a result of an explosion. It makes no sense it is IDIOTIC. Why do we want to make our kids dumb with stupid bs like evilution. Heck teach both and let the kids decide but evilutionist couldn't handle that because they know the kids can see through the bs of evilution if given the choice.

You're idiotic for thinking its so cut and dry.

 

[Sub-Zero]

You know many scientist have now switched to intelligent design because there are SO MANY flaws in the big bang and evilution theories that it can not be denied that someone very very intelligent created this world. You have to be a complete dumbass to believe that all of what you see and hear was a result of an explosion. It makes no sense it is IDIOTIC. Why do we want to make our kids dumb with stupid bs like evilution. Heck teach both and let the kids decide but evilutionist couldn't handle that because they know the kids can see through the bs of evilution if given the choice.

yeah cause its more probable there is an intelligent creator who is just inherantly there, who goes around setting up the process of worlds and realities being built, than it is for an explosion to cause it all....

if evolution is too complex to be a natural process, and requires an intelligent designer, someone would have had to design someone with enough intelligence to create entire worlds and realities...and someone would have had to created him, and the creator of him and so on... where does it end?> with an explosion?


though ill tell you one thing for certain, curling's posts sure as hell arnt a product of intelligent design

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

yeah cause its more probable there is an intelligent creator who is just inherantly there, who goes around setting up the process of worlds and realities being built, than it is for an explosion to cause it all....

I think intelligent design is 100% a cop out, a non-answer to some very difficult questions.

The Big Bang is being incrementally discredited as well; for example, galaxies seem to be accelerating away from each other, rather than slowing down...evidence against the Big Bang (why has the energy not dissipated?)

Other issues with the theory exist as well. The Big bang theory is the result of an agreed starting point, since the oldest identifiable light from quasars we can see is ~14B years old.

And just how did all that matter get into a tiny little space, anyway?


In other words, we don't know shit about where the Universe comes from.

 

[milo hobgoblin]

actually the universe is held up by columns of giant turtles.

 

[75th]

actually the universe is held up by columns of giant turtles.

Sea turtles?

 

[Scotsman]

Sea turtles?

Space turtles, I mean how would sea turtles swim in space there's no water. You really need to think these things through before asking lame questions.LOL

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[Hiatussin]

I am not sure but are you denying the holocaust? What interest does anyone have in the exact number? It was in the millions and unspeakable in the atrocity. Millions. Think about that.

Its not all that clear that it was more than a million that were murdered to serve racial purity, rather than just stump dissidence.

About 100 k were deported from Holland, of which like 40 k returned.
Out of all the nations the nazis conquered, Holland had the highest deportation rate amongst its Jews. It´s possible it´s a 6 figure total

 

[Scotsman]

Its not all that clear that it was more than a million that were murdered to serve racial purity, rather than just stump dissidence.

About 100 k were deported from Holland, of which like 40 k returned.
Out of all the nations the nazis conquered, Holland had the highest deportation rate amongst its Jews. It´s possible it´s a 6 figure total

You're arguing semantics when it comes to people being forcibly taken and killed because of their religion. That's just fucking wrong, it doesn't matter if it was 100, 0r 100,000, or 1,000,000 million it is unforgivable.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[Hiatussin]

You're arguing semantics when it comes to people being forcibly taken and killed because of their religion. That's just fucking wrong, it doesn't matter if it was 100, 0r 100,000, or 1,000,000 million it is unforgivable.

Cheers,
Scotsman

Isn´t it equally unforgiveable to inflate the number in order to win sympathy and even gross financial claims?

People being killed over their religion fits in history too it seems to be a pattern even.

You have to realise the effects here... public schools in Germany are basically teaching kids to be ashamed.

I´m not saying it is acceptable to want to eradicate jews, just the enormous historical inconsistency with which the world has dealt with this memory.

The main difference seems to be, that the Nazis were upfront about what they were doing. They basically said well, we believe Jews are the root of all (or a lot of) evil and we´re going to destroy them. The world heard this, it was not sugar coated or silenced.

There were many genocides in history, but none as blunt and open as the Jew holocaust.

Gestapo knocking at the door "Gestapo, papers, now! Are you hiding Jews!?"

I don´t really believe integrity makes crime worse though. I´d say Stalin who murdered 20 million of his own and also lied about it is more immoral. Yet you can see alternative guys walking around in red shirts with the soviet symbol or Che on it, but its illegal and very dangerous to wear something symbolic of nazism.

People want to be bullshitted.

 

[Scotsman]

Isn´t it equally unforgiveable to inflate the number in order to win sympathy and even gross financial claims?

People being killed over their religion fits in history too it seems to be a pattern even.

You have to realise the effects here... public schools in Germany are basically teaching kids to be ashamed

And you have exacting and irrefutable proof that the numbers are over-exaggerated? And that they were done so solely for the purpose of monetary and political gains?

So you will have no problems if someone starts rounding up christians in europe and forcing them into labor camps and then killing them since it's just the way things are?

So the German people should be proud of what happened?

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[rsnoble-im-back]

LOL that you pointed out it would be the religious conservative right nutjobs that would be the ones teaching it. The same assholes with all their moral convictions yet their the ones that pushed the Iraq war button, their the ones that abandoned their idea of small gov't, their the ones that would rather see Sam Walton and his little group of trillionaires get even richer while everyone else dies off, their the ones that act prim and proper yet are taking cock in the ass behind closed doors......

So go ahead conservative fruitcakes---Preach your phony bologna bullshit.

 

[Sub-Zero]

I think intelligent design is 100% a cop out, a non-answer to some very difficult questions.

The Big Bang is being incrementally discredited as well; for example, galaxies seem to be accelerating away from each other, rather than slowing down...evidence against the Big Bang (why has the energy not dissipated?)

Other issues with the theory exist as well. The Big bang theory is the result of an agreed starting point, since the oldest identifiable light from quasars we can see is ~14B years old.

And just how did all that matter get into a tiny little space, anyway?


In other words, we don't know shit about where the Universe comes from.

" be accelerating away from each other, rather than slowing down...evidence against the Big Bang (why has the energy not dissipated?)"

object in motion stays in motion?

anyway, i dont have my own theories and im not gunna pretend i have any idea, i was just trying to squash out curling's dumb ideologies

 

[ChefWide]

LOL that you pointed out it would be the religious conservative right nutjobs that would be the ones teaching it. The same assholes with all their moral convictions yet their the ones that pushed the Iraq war button, their the ones that abandoned their idea of small gov't, their the ones that would rather see Sam Walton and his little group of trillionaires get even richer while everyone else dies off, their the ones that act prim and proper yet are taking cock in the ass behind closed doors......

So go ahead conservative fruitcakes---Preach your phony bologna bullshit.

"I sold that family business stock two weeks before it tanked for the sole purpose of avoiding any conflict of interest, i had no, i repeat NO inside information on the fact that it was doomed."


Blow me.

 

[Sub-Zero]

And you have exacting and irrefutable proof that the numbers are over-exaggerated? And that they were done so solely for the purpose of monetary and political gains?

So you will have no problems if someone starts rounding up christians in europe and forcing them into labor camps and then killing them since it's just the way things are?

So the German people should be proud of what happened?

Cheers,
Scotsman

i disagree with the whole germany should be ashamed bullshit. sure they should express disgust and disagreement with what happened, but IMO its same shit as black slavery....americans arnt (or at least shouldnt) be proud of it, but to make every single white kid feel like shit that it happened (or every single german feel like shit over the wwII shit) is retarded.

every country(inquisitions for example, russia like has already been mentioned for example, the disaparecidos bullshit in Argentina) has done something fucked up at one point, and it should be looked down on as an action, but the current state of the country and its people shouldnt be judged or guilted by it...

 

[Hiatussin]

And you have exacting and irrefutable proof that the numbers are over-exaggerated? And that they were done so solely for the purpose of monetary and political gains?

So you will have no problems if someone starts rounding up christians in europe and forcing them into labor camps and then killing them since it's just the way things are?

So the German people should be proud of what happened?

Cheers,
Scotsman

I think you misunderstood (or wanted to misunderstand) my post.

I said none of the things you are implying I did.

I dont think the numbers were inflated solely for political reasons. More like partly and the other part in the shocked time after liberation and nobody has simply wanted to touch it since.

Germans should not be proud of what happened, but they shouldn´t be taught to be ashamed of their country or ancestry either.

I don´t want to defend nazism as in saying i think its nice and we should do it all again. I´m just saying the world and europe in particular and germany even more so, has a very inconsistently great trauma from the whole ordeal.
German kids are basically told they´re part of a people that´s got a sick dangerous mind.

Holland became a developed country mostly by the trade of slaves and the exploitation of colonies in which labourers worked for next to no pay and under terrible conditions. Apartheid is a Dutch word.

What do they teach me in school? That my ancestors were brilliant innovative businessmen who dared go where no European had gone before and made great use of their brilliant tradesmanship.

People think Che is a hero, an idol. He gave direct orders for the execution of tens of thousands of homosexuals, merely for the reason that they were gay. There´s gays wearing symbols of his.

 

[beefcake28]

I think intelligent design is 100% a cop out, a non-answer to some very difficult questions.

The Big Bang is being incrementally discredited as well; for example, galaxies seem to be accelerating away from each other, rather than slowing down...evidence against the Big Bang (why has the energy not dissipated?)

Other issues with the theory exist as well. The Big bang theory is the result of an agreed starting point, since the oldest identifiable light from quasars we can see is ~14B years old.

And just how did all that matter get into a tiny little space, anyway?


In other words, we don't know shit about where the Universe comes from.

The difference between ID and creationism is primarily that ID actually aknowledges evolution (in general, not the pure Darwinian theory of a common ancestor), the Big Bang Theory, etc... where pure Creationism blatently denies those theories in all forms, among other arguements. As one example, since evolution can be observed and proven, ID is basing its stance based on facts in science, instead of just denying it, as pure Creationists do. ID, for the most part, deals with scientific fact and allows you to draw your own conclusions... as opposed to presenting the scientific facts and adamantly denying you to believe in something behind it, or that it is absolutely random?

Why not be allowed to draw your own conclusions based on scientific evidence?

A few interesting quotes...

"While Darwin helped to divorce science from religion, he was unable to construct a workable dynamic model of life. He merely replaced one faith with another."

"To continue believing in Darwinism, the faithful have been forced to go into denial."
- Graeme Donald Snooks

"When a rule is extremely complex, that which conforms to it passes for random."
- Leibnitz

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving that they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study."
- Alfred North Whitehead

"There is, you see, no real parallel between Christian obstinacy in faith and the obstinacy of a bad scientist trying to preserve a hypothesis although the evidence has turned against it. Unbelievers very pardonably get the impression that an adherence to our faith is like that, because they meet Christianity, if at all, mainly in apologetic works. And there, of course, the existence and beneficence of God must appear as a speculative question like any other. Indeed it is a speculative question as long as it is a question at all. But once it has been answered in the affirmative, you get a new situation. To believe that God- at least this God- exists is to believe that you as a person now stand in the presence of God as a Person. What would, a moment before, have been variations in opinion, now become variations in your personal attitude to a Person. You are no longer faced with an argument which demands your assent, but with a Person who demands your confidence."
-C.S. Lewis, in "On Obstinacy in Belief," The World's Last Night and Other Essays , 1960, p.27

“I wish I were younger…. What inclines me now to think you may be right in regarding [evolution] as the central and radical lie in the whole web of falsehood that now governs our lives is not so much your arguments against it as the fanatical and twisted attitudes of its defenders.”
-Lewis, C. S., Private letter to B. Acworth (1951)

 

[rsnoble-im-back]

Intelligent design=right wingers way of getting everyone sidetracked with bullshit issues that any reasonable person knows they can't answer with certainty in order to push thru their evil agenda and peach orchard dreams of turning the US into the awe-inspired industrial genious China where every citizen can go to work for free and come home and study the stupid fucking bible and never think twice about it.

 

[jackangel]

hold on a fucking minute.

i know someone didn't just insult my main man curling.

 

[beefcake28]

Just to clarify.... I am not saying that God/religion should be taught in schools, but I don't believe that the absence of God should be taught as an absolute either. Present the scientific facts, and let people draw their own conclusions...

 

[Scotsman]

i disagree with the whole germany should be ashamed bullshit. sure they should express disgust and disagreement with what happened, but IMO its same shit as black slavery....americans arnt (or at least shouldnt) be proud of it, but to make every single white kid feel like shit that it happened (or every single german feel like shit over the wwII shit) is retarded.

every country(inquisitions for example, russia like has already been mentioned for example, the disaparecidos bullshit in Argentina) has done something fucked up at one point, and it should be looked down on as an action, but the current state of the country and its people shouldnt be judged or guilted by it...

The slight difference here is that not all of America supported slavery as it was a partial cause of the civil war. And no American should be proud that even half our country at one time supported the slave trade. I also agree that when certain members of the black community try and blame modern America for enslaving their ancestors that it is a total bullshit point. Should we forget that it happened no. Should we work to ensure that it never does again, yes. Apart from a very small yet vocal group no one judges our current society for slavery.

I like to point out that we offered to return any slave to their point of ancestry and even went so far as to create them their own country, yet very few went back because they'd rather live here. This usually ends any sort of argument rather quickly.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[Hiatussin]

I don't believe that the absence of God should be taught as an absolute either.

Did any nation other than the Soviet union ever do that?

 

[beefcake28]

Did any nation other than the Soviet union ever do that?

I have had several teachers/professors do that.

 

[Hiatussin]

I have had several teachers/professors do that.

I´ve been called an idiot by teachers for not acknowledging the obvious presence of the creator before too. Its not in the course books though is it

 

[Scotsman]

" be accelerating away from each other, rather than slowing down...evidence against the Big Bang (why has the energy not dissipated?)"

object in motion stays in motion?

anyway, i dont have my own theories and im not gunna pretend i have any idea, i was just trying to squash out curling's dumb ideologies

Objects staying in motion is conservation of inertia therefore eliminating acceleration.

To argue against Matt's point there, if an object is maintaining linear motion with a pure conservation of inertia due to an infrictile environment then the dissapation of mass will in itself create and inherent acceleration. Also while it is a matter of slight observance you must take into account that we are not stationary nor near the center of said event, that we cannot without full observation realize the potential for motion without a clear record of said motions beggining. Therefore motion of matter away from any given point cannot be used to prove or dispove an events conception but, may merely be used to know that an original occurance instigated said motion.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[Scotsman]

I think you misunderstood (or wanted to misunderstand) my post.

I said none of the things you are implying I did.

I dont think the numbers were inflated solely for political reasons. More like partly and the other part in the shocked time after liberation and nobody has simply wanted to touch it since.

Germans should not be proud of what happened, but they shouldn´t be taught to be ashamed of their country or ancestry either.

I don´t want to defend nazism as in saying i think its nice and we should do it all again. I´m just saying the world and europe in particular and germany even more so, has a very inconsistently great trauma from the whole ordeal.
German kids are basically told they´re part of a people that´s got a sick dangerous mind.

Holland became a developed country mostly by the trade of slaves and the exploitation of colonies in which labourers worked for next to no pay and under terrible conditions. Apartheid is a Dutch word.

What do they teach me in school? That my ancestors were brilliant innovative businessmen who dared go where no European had gone before and made great use of their brilliant tradesmanship.

People think Che is a hero, an idol. He gave direct orders for the execution of tens of thousands of homosexuals, merely for the reason that they were gay. There´s gays wearing symbols of his.

You've mentioned more than once that the numbers are probably inflated. Therefore I read that as you wanting it to be true.

By political I was encompassing sympathy and it's probably uses aside from monetary since you made the distinction.

Should they be taught to be ashamed of themselves today? NO

Should they be ashamed of these past actions? Yes, for if they aren't it allows for re-occurance.

I know where apparthied came from and all about the Boer's settlements etc. And if they aren't making a distinction that it is wrong, or are choosing to deny it as part of their past, then I truly pity them for they will never learn.

On the che thing it's probably because people don't research what shit means they just want to be popular within a group.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[Scotsman]

Just to clarify.... I am not saying that God/religion should be taught in schools, but I don't believe that the absence of God should be taught as an absolute either. Present the scientific facts, and let people draw their own conclusions...

The big problem then becomes who's idea of god do you teach?

Buddhist, Taoist, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Islamic, or one of many of the pagan gods.

In America you aren't supposed to be able to force your idea of god on anyone else or have them force their's on you. Therefore the no touch policy on religion becomes the next best step instead of taking up all your time hitting all the different philisophical points of view.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[beefcake28]

I´ve been called an idiot by teachers for not acknowledging the obvious presence of the creator before too. Its not in the course books though is it

It is not outright stated in the text that there is no God. The implications of the text present it as such that there is no question everything happened without a God, or any cause, for that matter.

I have been literally escorted out of class because of my questioning, which prompted other students to pose a landslide of questions as well. I never even stated that anything about God directly, but simply questioned "how and why" to some of the teachers arguements (regarding Darwinian evolution). Since he couldn't defend his position (scientific facts, not theology), and I could defend mine, he threw me out of his class.

 

[beefcake28]

The big problem then becomes who's idea of god do you teach?

Buddhist, Taoist, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Islamic, or one of many of the pagan gods.

In America you aren't supposed to be able to force your idea of god on anyone else or have them force their's on you. Therefore the no touch policy on religion becomes the next best step instead of taking up all your time hitting all the different philisophical points of view.

Cheers,
Scotsman

I didn't say teach a specific God or religion, I said allow people to draw their own conclusions. This would allow anyone to believe whatever they wanted, or not believe in anything at all. I just don't think it should be taught (or implied outright) that there is nothing at all behind the facts. Let people choose for themselves without spinning a bias on it...

In other words, teach the facts, and nothing else...

 

[Scotsman]

I didn't say teach a specific God or religion, I said allow people to draw their own conclusions. This would allow anyone to believe whatever they wanted, or not believe in anything at all. I just don't think it should be taught (or implied outright) that there is nothing at all behind the facts. Let people choose for themselves without spinning a bias on it...

Again the problem is if you hint at some higher power every group out there will be in an uproar if it isn't theirs. Educators walk a really fine line these days with all the sue happy folks of the world.

And if they non-mention of something dissuades someone's beliefs in it then their beliefs probably weren't strong enough to matter anyway. Most people will draw their own conclusions anyway. Science class is just that reporting on scientific finds and the scientific methodology, and should not under any circumstances be altered from that. If people want to question this from a different standpoint that's fine, but the teachers job is to teach that science and nothing else. IMHO

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[thelion2005]

It hasn't happened, to my knowledge, but... hypothetical situation:

Suppose a teacher in a ultra conservative school district has a request from a significant number of parents to teach that the Holocaust is only a theory and that there is a strong theory it never happened. Based on the allowance of Intelligent Design, a non-scientific theory, to be taught in high school science classes, what logic would restrict the Denial community from having a book by the Historical Review taught alongside Elie Wiesel and Anne Frank?

Like Intelligent Design, while no major published scholars debate the validity of the Holocause, the movement has it's own "scholars", some with Ph.D.s in history, who argue their case[s*]. (*Holocaust denial takes many forms- some deniers only have beefs with the numbers, others concede it happened but that Hitler didn't know about it, etc..)

To those who argue in favor of Intelligent Design's inclusion, what would you use to justify the exclusion of Holocaust Denial in the same school?

The Holocaust happened, period. It was a monsterus war crime committed by both the Germans and the Russians.

The Japanese did the same to the Chinese, American, British and Philippine people and prisioners.

We committed a crime of sorts against Americans of Japanese heritage.

All this should be taught as part of the history of WWII. To deny it is ignorant.

 

[beefcake28]

Again the problem is if you hint at some higher power every group out there will be in an uproar if it isn't theirs. Educators walk a really fine line these days with all the sue happy folks of the world.

Very true. I don't think it should be like this at all, but it is.

And if they non-mention of something dissuades someone's beliefs in it then their beliefs probably weren't strong enough to matter anyway. Most people will draw their own conclusions anyway. Science class is just that reporting on scientific finds and the scientific methodology, and should not under any circumstances be altered from that. If people want to question this from a different standpoint that's fine, but the teachers job is to teach that science and nothing else. IMHO

Cheers,
Scotsman

I agree 100% that is how it should be. Teachers unfortunately like to inject their own biases though, even if they are subtle. I guess that is just part of being human and wanting others to believe as you do.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I'm so sick of how politically correct this country and others are trying to become. (Oh, poooor little Johnny was offended when the class said the Pledge of Allegiance Thursday morning at school.......big fucking deal, get over it), or (Oh, someone has to do something about that statue of the Ten Commandments outside the state capital; it's offending people!). Jeez, with such attrocities it really makes me wonder how the hell our country has gotten so far with nothing done about them in the first 200+years of existence.
These are only religious examples of how twisted society is becoming trying to make everyone happy, but the Holocaust is definitely another example of government/lobbyists trying to spread magic fairy dust across the country to avoid offending people.

Here's a news flash: The world isn't perfect and it never will be; stop trying to make it that way, people have to learn to take bad along with the good....maybe people should stop being such pussies for a change and see how that goes.

And you know what? Things would probably get much better because of it.

 

[rsnoble-im-back]

Do the conservatives have a provision in intelligent design for non-whites? I bet they do.