Shorter Esters do "kick in" faster, FYI

[UA_Iron]

There's been a frequent theme of misconception brewing around these parts and that is the idea of the "kick in." Shorter esters do kick in faster than longer esters, period. The only way I could fathom why some people would say otherwise is due to a lack of understanding of what esters do.

Let us define "kick in" as the 'time to onset of action' of a hormone. Meaning, this is the time between your first shot and when you start to feel the physiological affects of that hormone such as (for testosterone): positive mood affects, positive energy affects, increased aggression, increased sexual arousal, increased protein synthesis.... and so on.

When does "kick in" happen? When your blood levels of free testosterone reach at least some threshold beyond your normal levels.

Now let's dive into what esters do:

Esterification of an injectable anabolic/androgenic steroid basically accomplishes one thing, it slows the release of the parent steroid from the site of injection. This happens because the ester will notably lower the water solubility of the steroid, and increase its lipid (fat) solubility. This will cause the drug to form a deposit in the muscle tissue, from which it will slowly enter into circulation as it is picked up in small quantities by the blood.

It makes sense, the longer the chain attached to the parent hormone, the greater the complexity in breaking it down by the body. This will result in a slower release of the hormone into the bloodstream.

Graphically, the curves for the blood concentration of testosterone over time for test enanthate and test propionate will look very different. Enanthate will take much longer to reach "peak concentrations" before tapering off. The propionate will look like a short burst of hormone over a smaller time frame. For equal amounts of these two hormones the area under each curve will be equal.

Short ester "kick in" faster and are expelled from the body quicker.

 

[Nelson Montana]

That's not the misconception. That's a misconception of the misconception. lol

Sure short esters reach peak levels faster. But the difference is nominal. We're talking the difference between a few hours and a few days to reach peak levels. In a 10 weeks cycle, do those first couple of days really matter? Use an oral and you'll reach peak levels within 20 minutes.

Personally I see no benefit to shorter esters other than they're a tad more potent and give less water retention. Oddly enough, ( or not) I feel I look a little less "full" on prop than on enth.

The misconception that is so prevelent is that people think the drug doesn't start to work until it's been used for a few weeks, which is absurd. Three weeks after your first shot it's out of your system. Yes, there's an over lap of half lives but again, after a few weeks that doesn't matter. In fact, when using long esters there's MORE of the drug in you by week three than if you used shorter esters. So if you're planning on doing a cycle for more than 3 weeks, you might as well use enth or cyp. And yes, it starts working right away. That's a fact.

 

[RickRock13]

I agree with everything said in the original post. Yes, both short and long esters start working right away, but that is not what this is about. This is about "kick in" time, or the time that someone starts to notice the effects from the hormone. If you inject 500mg Test E, and your buddy injects 500mg of Test prop in a week your buddy will notice effects much quicker than you will. Even though the same amount of testosterone was injected by both parties, you will not have as much useable hormone initially released with the longer ester. After a few weeks that changes (just like mentioned with the curve example in the original post) as the long ester reaches peak concentration. That is why long esters take longer to "kick in" even though they are working from day 1.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I agree with everything said in the original post. Yes, both short and long esters start working right away, but that is not what this is about. This is about "kick in" time, or the time that someone starts to notice the effects from the hormone. If you inject 500mg Test E, and your buddy injects 500mg of Test prop in a week your buddy will notice effects much quicker than you will. Even though the same amount of testosterone was injected by both parties, you will not have as much useable hormone initially released with the longer ester. After a few weeks that changes (just like mentioned with the curve example in the original post) as the long ester reaches peak concentration. That is why long esters take longer to "kick in" even though they are working from day 1.

THAT is exactly what people don't understand. You may not notice the effects for a while BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE DRUG ISN'T WORKING.

I've never done more a 6 week cycle in my life. I just did the NPC show with 6 weeks to prepare and all I did was test and primo -- and people say Primo doesn't kick in for 6 weeks. LOL. I saw results after a week.

A big part of this misconception is that people simply do not know how to train and many have relied so long on the drugs that they don't get anything out of them until superphysiological levels are reached. That's why you have guys using 2 grams and they weight 170 pounds. The old timers did 20 mgs of d-bol a day and were amazed at the results. I've never done more than a total 600 mgs a week. I train mostly natural so when I do take something I notice the difference.

So it's important for people to understand the difference between a drug being effective and how long you may see results. The later is essentially irrelevant. You may not see results for a few weeks using prop!

Telling people it takes time to "kick in" confuses them and makes them think the drug has to "build up" to be effective and that's just not true.

 

[stevesmi]

PCT Calculator | Post Cycle Therapy Calculator <<< you can plug in a compound and see the answer to this in black and white. not sure why this subject gets debated so much when we have sites like this to rely on

the problem with the compound being out of the system in a few weeks is even if a small small small amount is leftover it will STILL SUPPRESS you even though it won't do very much else for you. the body cannot recover until ALL THE ESTERS ARE OUT. if this wasn't the case then the whole dbol 10mg a day bridge bullshit would be what every person would do between cycles. but it doesn't work because even a small amount of hormone is suppressive. so yes if you run an E, U or D ester its gonna take longer than a couple weeks to be out of your system so you can begin recovery. its gonna take a solid 6 weeks as a matter of fact.

and another thing is i see a lot of newbs run cycles and then come off a few weeks then hop back on. if you do this then all you are doing is just staying on, your body has no chance at all to recover when it STILL has a small amount of hormone in the body suppressing it. you must take ample time in between cycles or your HPTA will be grass. if that is your strategy then you might as well just stay on or go on HRT cause you don't stand a chance long term of being able to cycle

 

[Nelson Montana]

PCT Calculator | Post Cycle Therapy Calculator <<< you can plug in a compound and see the answer to this in black and white. not sure why this subject gets debated so much when we have sites like this to rely on

the problem with the compound being out of the system in a few weeks is even if a small small small amount is leftover it will STILL SUPPRESS you even though it won't do very much else for you. the body cannot recover until ALL THE ESTERS ARE OUT. if this wasn't the case then the whole dbol 10mg a day bridge bullshit would be what every person would do between cycles. but it doesn't work because even a small amount of hormone is suppressive. so yes if you run an E, U or D ester its gonna take longer than a couple weeks to be out of your system so you can begin recovery. its gonna take a solid 6 weeks as a matter of fact.

and another thing is i see a lot of newbs run cycles and then come off a few weeks then hop back on. if you do this then all you are doing is just staying on, your body has no chance at all to recover when it STILL has a small amount of hormone in the body suppressing it. you must take ample time in between cycles or your HPTA will be grass. if that is your strategy then you might as well just stay on or go on HRT cause you don't stand a chance long term of being able to cycle

I agree with most of this but that calculator thing is just something someone made up. I'm not sure why we all have to defer to that.

And I don't believe PCT should start once everything is out of the system, I think it should start sooner. And it doesn't take 6 weeks to clear, I've done enough blood tests to know that's not the case, however just because levels have normalized doesn't mean they aren't compromised. So Steve is absolutely correct that if you go back on too soon you'll never truly recover and might as well be on HRT -- which is NOT recommended until you're at least 40.




.

 

[stevesmi]

^^^ the site goes by half lives and merely halves them. those are what the pharma companies list as the half lives. so its actually pretty close to being accurate in my eyes

yes pct should start early i agree. nothing wrong with running T stack RX, hcgenerate, hcg etc while the esters are clearing to give you a boost and plump up your nuts ahead of pct. that is a huge advantage to recovery .. but the problem is if you run a 4 week pct and start too soon and finish too soon then you are gonna be in trouble and find out your pct didn't work, when in fact it did work but you just stopped it too soon. this is the #1 reason PCT"s fail with guys.

yes i know you ran blood tests but to really prove what you are saying try stopping everything including your HRT and then testing after 2 weeks.. i assure you that you will have hormones still in the body from your prior injections, it will be low amounts but its still enough to suppress. even if your T levels are down to 75 or 50 its still gonna suppress you unfortunately.

 

[Nelson Montana]

^^^ the site goes by half lives and merely halves them. those are what the pharma companies list as the half lives. so its actually pretty close to being accurate in my eyes

yes pct should start early i agree. nothing wrong with running T stack RX, hcgenerate, hcg etc while the esters are clearing to give you a boost and plump up your nuts ahead of pct. that is a huge advantage to recovery .. but the problem is if you run a 4 week pct and start too soon and finish too soon then you are gonna be in trouble and find out your pct didn't work, when in fact it did work but you just stopped it too soon. this is the #1 reason PCT"s fail with guys.

yes i know you ran blood tests but to really prove what you are saying try stopping everything including your HRT and then testing after 2 weeks.. i assure you that you will have hormones still in the body from your prior injections, it will be low amounts but its still enough to suppress. even if your T levels are down to 75 or 50 its still gonna suppress you unfortunately.

EXCELLENT POINT! People END PCT TOO EARLY! I recommend doing at least 2 months of the supps. What's it cost you? Another 50 bucks?

True, that hormones metabolites are in the body but they're essentially inert after a few weeks, but it's also true that you're not entirely recovered. I think dosage and duration is also a factor here.

Believe me , I don't want my T to ever get around 75! lol. Not only would that suck and cost me whatever gains I made, it would actually put me at risk of a heart attack.

 

[RickRock13]

^^^ the site goes by half lives and merely halves them. those are what the pharma companies list as the half lives. so its actually pretty close to being accurate in my eyes

yes pct should start early i agree. nothing wrong with running T stack RX, hcgenerate, hcg etc while the esters are clearing to give you a boost and plump up your nuts ahead of pct. that is a huge advantage to recovery .. but the problem is if you run a 4 week pct and start too soon and finish too soon then you are gonna be in trouble and find out your pct didn't work, when in fact it did work but you just stopped it too soon. this is the #1 reason PCT"s fail with guys.

yes i know you ran blood tests but to really prove what you are saying try stopping everything including your HRT and then testing after 2 weeks.. i assure you that you will have hormones still in the body from your prior injections, it will be low amounts but its still enough to suppress. even if your T levels are down to 75 or 50 its still gonna suppress you unfortunately.

I agree with this completely. That is the reason I try to push people to do a 6-8 week PCT following long esters, and I've even considered starting PCT closer to 17-21 days after last pin instead of the "typical" 14 days. I know a lot of the PCT calculators ive seen recommend closer to that range when plugging in doses. At 2 weeks after last pin there is still a LOT of test in your system if you ran a moderately dosed cycle, and its essentially a waste of any test boosting products at that point. It makes more sense to start just a tad later when they can be better utilized and actually have effect. If you are being suppressed they can't work. I think many times guys are only getting a good 2 weeks or so of PCT when they start 14 days after last pin and run a 4 week PCT, which ends up not being enough for recovery and levels them with still tanked test levels.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I agree with this completely. That is the reason I try to push people to do a 6-8 week PCT following long esters, and I've even considered starting PCT closer to 17-21 days after last pin instead of the "typical" 14 days. I know a lot of the PCT calculators ive seen recommend closer to that range when plugging in doses. At 2 weeks after last pin there is still a LOT of test in your system if you ran a moderately dosed cycle, and its essentially a waste of any test boosting products at that point. It makes more sense to start just a tad later when they can be better utilized and actually have effect. If you are being suppressed they can't work. I think many times guys are only getting a good 2 weeks or so of PCT when they start 14 days after last pin and run a 4 week PCT, which ends up not being enough for recovery and levels them with still tanked test levels.

I agree with 95% of this. lol. I don't think it's a waste to start a test boosting stack early because it does get the body at least attempting to produce it's own T. Why do people recommend using HCG while ON cycle? You're just going to be suppressed anyway. But the theory is, it'll keep the gonads attempting to produce T. The problem I have with that is HCG isn;t effective if over used. UNLEASHED, POST CYCLE, phytoserms and BRIDGE and supps like that will not suppress and can only help. Better to start a little too early than a little too late.

 

[stevesmi]

EXCELLENT POINT! People END PCT TOO EARLY! I recommend doing at least 2 months of the supps. What's it cost you? Another 50 bucks?

True, that hormones metabolites are in the body but they're essentially inert after a few weeks, but it's also true that you're not entirely recovered. I think dosage and duration is also a factor here.

Believe me , I don't want my T to ever get around 75! lol. Not only would that suck and cost me whatever gains I made, it would actually put me at risk of a heart attack.

i remember i ran deca years ago.. did my homework on pct, thought i was on the right track and found out the hard way i wasn't .. roughly 5 weeks after stopping and my T was 90's, it sucked bigtime. my gf even dumped me during this because she felt like i had lost interest in her.. we all know girls can sense a hormonal change like a shark senses blood. its in their DNA lol

i had failed to run proper pct and stopped too soon. it was the infamous nolva/clomid bullshit pct. this was when i found EF and since then i have corrected my pct errors thanks to a lot of help from this site. and to top it off i still see this same shitty pct bantered around the web, this is why i urge guys to PM me to put them on a real pct and avoid doom lol

once i got on a proper pct and stayed patient my T levels finally jumped to 350+ and from there got better and better.

 

[El Hefe]

I agree with 95% of this. lol. I don't think it's a waste to start a test boosting stack early because it does get the body at least attempting to produce it's own T. Why do people recommend using HCG while ON cycle? You're just going to be suppressed anyway. But the theory is, it'll keep the gonads attempting to produce T. The problem I have with that is HCG isn;t effective if over used. UNLEASHED, POST CYCLE, phytoserms and BRIDGE and supps like that will not suppress and can only help. Better to start a little too early than a little too late.

I agree - better too early than too late.

I usually start at least a week early, but this doesn't shorten my PCT, because I don't consider this to be my PCT - I consider this pre-PCT.

I also use clomid which doesn't really stimulate lh til test levels drop. For me it seems to take effect in the 800-900 range. Therefore, you prevent the crash or dip.

 

[MaxxReps]

And yes, it starts working right away. That's a fact.

Just a beginner here but a scientific one (I log and journal everything). My diet was stable right at maintenance when I started my first cycle. The day after my first pin of 250mg test cyp my weight went up and continued to climb for the whole 2 weeks that I kept my diet right around maintenance.

Sure, it was just water but proves (to me at least) that indeed the test had an effect instantly.

 

[stevesmi]

^^^ you are gonna get an effect right away especially with your first cycle. i remember when i ran sustanon for the first time what i was able to do 6 reps on my bench went to 8 reps like in 3 days. granted sustanon does have 2 short esters but still. it will hit you quick your first cycle. thats why we tell guys to not blow your first cycle being 6 foot tall and 155 pounds.

 

[zwhit]

EXCELLENT POINT! People END PCT TOO EARLY! I recommend doing at least 2 months of the supps. What's it cost you? Another 50 bucks?

True, that hormones metabolites are in the body but they're essentially inert after a few weeks, but it's also true that you're not entirely recovered. I think dosage and duration is also a factor here.

Believe me , I don't want my T to ever get around 75! lol. Not only would that suck and cost me whatever gains I made, it would actually put me at risk of a heart attack.

why would they be inert a few weeks after the last injection, when they're dropping, but not when they're increasing during the first few weeks?

 

[Nelson Montana]

why would they be inert a few weeks after the last injection, when they're dropping, but not when they're increasing during the first few weeks?

Because the duration is about 14 days, slowly releasing , peaking at about day 5-6 then tapering off. And when you're starting a cycle you're ADDING more injections , therefore it's building up in your system.

 

[stevesmi]

^^^ nelson i'm not trying to argue with you but zwhit brings up a good question. and you are saying that it does in fact 'build up' in the system ... so you are pretty much saying that as a steroid builds up it does become more and more powerful as you add injections.. which is exactly the point the OP was making and how is that different than the point you were making earlier? i'm just trying to simplify the thread cause the newbs reading are gonna get confused and dizzy reading it.. i think everyone is on the same page its just the lingo between 'build up' and ' kick in' means different things

i think its splitting hairs regardless. there is no debate that after your last injection your levels begin dropping and after 2 weeks its way less than it was a day after yoru last injection. i don't think anyone is argueing that fact.

 

[zwhit]

lol yeah, he kind of posted the point of the thread. and exogenous hormones wouldn't be "inert" in your system until they're below your natural levels. there's no arguing that longer esters build up in your system slower than short esters.

but I do agree that one should be training 110% after the first injection instead of waiting until its fully "kicked in". and there's no harm in trying to get your natural hormones producing before the exogenous levels bottom out. could make the transition much smoother. but the hormones are never inert in your system, whether at the beginning or end of a cycle.

 

[stevesmi]

^^^ someone should train 110% unless they are going into a de-load.. i don't see what the point is for doing half ass workouts.... this chick today at the gym had me going 200%, wow what a body

and yes unfortunately even at low levels its gonna suppress you. which is how you see guys with .1 LH yet their T levels are 90. their body isn't producing any test, the 90 is whatever is left over.. not enough to be considered 'active' on paper or do anything to make you strong in the gym but enough to still suppress you. thats why pct is so important to get through that phase.

 

[Jack steel]

There's been a frequent theme of misconception brewing around these parts and that is the idea of the "kick in." Shorter esters do kick in faster than longer esters, period. The only way I could fathom why some people would say otherwise is due to a lack of understanding of what esters do.

Let us define "kick in" as the 'time to onset of action' of a hormone. Meaning, this is the time between your first shot and when you start to feel the physiological affects of that hormone such as (for testosterone): positive mood affects, positive energy affects, increased aggression, increased sexual arousal, increased protein synthesis.... and so on.

When does "kick in" happen? When your blood levels of free testosterone reach at least some threshold beyond your normal levels.

Now let's dive into what esters do:


It makes sense, the longer the chain attached to the parent hormone, the greater the complexity in breaking it down by the body. This will result in a slower release of the hormone into the bloodstream.

Graphically, the curves for the blood concentration of testosterone over time for test enanthate and test propionate will look very different. Enanthate will take much longer to reach "peak concentrations" before tapering off. The propionate will look like a short burst of hormone over a smaller time frame. For equal amounts of these two hormones the area under each curve will be equal.

Short ester "kick in" faster and are expelled from the body quicker.

If you pin 200 measly mg of test you're already over natural levels. Prop may have an hour head start at the most but it really makes no difference at all.

 

[Jack steel]

I guess I still hate the phrase "kick in". to me that means when it starts working... Which isn't true. What we're talking about is when do you see most of the gains start to come. All the effects minus muscle gain come in the first day no matter what ester you use. It simply doesn't matter enough to even discuss it in my opinion. Do you want to pin more often or less often? I think that's what it comes down to.

 

[RickRock13]

If you pin 200 measly mg of test you're already over natural levels. Prop may have an hour head start at the most but it really makes no difference at all.

Not exactly.....if the 200mg is enanthate or cypionate, you will not initially get 200mg of useable testosterone. The ester is attached to control the release of the hormone over the course of its half life, so there is much, much more difference than an hour between propionate or enanthate/cypionate.

 

[Nelson Montana]

^^^ nelson i'm not trying to argue with you but zwhit brings up a good question. and you are saying that it does in fact 'build up' in the system ... so you are pretty much saying that as a steroid builds up it does become more and more powerful as you add injections.. which is exactly the point the OP was making and how is that different than the point you were making earlier? i'm just trying to simplify the thread cause the newbs reading are gonna get confused and dizzy reading it.. i think everyone is on the same page its just the lingo between 'build up' and ' kick in' means different things

i think its splitting hairs regardless. there is no debate that after your last injection your levels begin dropping and after 2 weeks its way less than it was a day after yoru last injection. i don't think anyone is argueing that fact.

Yes, I think there's a terminology miscommunication here. Let's start from scratch.

Day one -- take a shot, day 5 take a shot -- day 10 take a shot --of course, that;'s 3 shots in your system building up. But aftera couple of weeks it evens out. The first shot will dissipate and the others will take over. That's very different from a drug taking weeks to "kick in." And that's what I see all the time. People think the shots taken the first few weeks aren;t active yet or that they take weeks to build up. No. You just have more drug in you at week 3 than at day 3. But that would be the case even with short esters so again, we're back to square one with there being no advantage to short esters since 2 weeks in, it;'s all the same thing.

 

[RickRock13]

Yes, I think there's a terminology miscommunication here. Let's start from scratch.

Day one -- take a shot, day 5 take a shot -- day 10 take a shot --of course, that;'s 3 shots in your system building up. But aftera couple of weeks it evens out. The first shot will dissipate and the others will take over. That's very different from a drug taking weeks to "kick in." And that's what I see all the time. People think the shots taken the first few weeks aren;t active yet or that they take weeks to build up. No. You just have more drug in you at week 3 than at day 3. But that would be the case even with short esters so again, we're back to square one with there being no advantage to short esters since 2 weeks in, it;'s all the same thing.

I agree with 95% of this...LOL. Except for the fact that short esters will "build up" (reach peak concentration) much quicker than long esters. Long esters take longer than 2 weeks to reach peak, where short esters take a little less than that....but yes, once peak is reached there is no difference

 

[zwhit]

I agree with 95% of this...LOL. Except for the fact that short esters will "build up" (reach peak concentration) much quicker than long esters. Long esters take longer than 2 weeks to reach peak, where short esters take a little less than that....but yes, once peak is reached there is no difference

this

I think the main problem is with noobs that don't really know what to look for. but again, I don't see how you can argue that long esters build up as quick as short esters. that's the whole point of making an ester longer, to delay the release, causing it to build up slower.

 

[Nelson Montana]

this

I think the main problem is with noobs that don't really know what to look for. but again, I don't see how you can argue that long esters build up as quick as short esters. that's the whole point of making an ester longer, to delay the release, causing it to build up slower.

You're missing the point. (This is the problem with this debate). Long esters don't build up as quick -- the poi t is, after peak levels are reached (after about 2 weeks), it's the same thing as if you were using short esters.

 

[zwhit]

You're missing the point. (This is the problem with this debate). Long esters don't build up as quick -- the poi t is, after peak levels are reached (after about 2 weeks), it's the same thing as if you were using short esters.

On post #2 of this thread you posted "We're talking about the difference between few hours and a few days." Now that you're saying that with enanthate or cypionate esters (longer esters), levels reach their peak after a couple of weeks, there really is no debate. We're on the same page.

And I would even say that's when (after a couple weeks) most people, especially guys new to steroids, start to "feel" the drugs and confuse "feeling" it with it actually working, which starts after the first injection. I think that's what you've been saying all along, isn't it?

 

[ledhead]

Yawn! Same ole thread. Just a different week with a different title..

 

[Jack steel]

Yawn! Same ole thread. Just a different week with a different title..

I totally agree. There have been at least 5 others in the last 30 days lol mine included. Let's all agree to disagree. It matters not.

 

[Nelson Montana]

On post #2 of this thread you posted "We're talking about the difference between few hours and a few days." Now that you're saying that with enanthate or cypionate esters (longer esters), levels reach their peak after a couple of weeks, there really is no debate. We're on the same page.

And I would even say that's when (after a couple weeks) most people, especially guys new to steroids, start to "feel" the drugs and confuse "feeling" it with it actually working, which starts after the first injection. I think that's what you've been saying all along, isn't it?

Pretty much, yeah.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Yawn! Same ole thread. Just a different week with a different title..

Well, UA wanted to make a point and I felt I had to clarify. But you have to realize, it's a ever changing board with new members all the time. It's not like one continuous conversation with the same people, so if it;'s a topic that you aren't interested in, why bother to post?