Sheesh ... another 5x5 question :) how much progress is actually progress ?

[Maks]

Ok, sorry if that has been asked and answered before ... it probably has, oh well ...

In a 5x5 programm you should keep on progressing the weight from week to week. OK. But how much progression is enough for the body to notice it ? Or, in other words, wouldnt it spoil the program if the increases were very low and you end up at week 4 with nearly the same weight as on week 1 ?
Is there any numbers on that ? I read that some guys got themselves 1 lbs plates ... would that be a valid increase of weight for a heavy lift ? Maybe someone has heard about a percentage of increase that would be the minimum ? Or a good range ? Like 2-5 % ?

So - on my 2nd cycle of a DF 5x5 i will have a pretty good idea about my 5x5/ 1x5 max weights. So i could calculate down to the starting weight in order to end up with my max in week 3. Question is, how much % of weight should i intend to increase per week, appr. ? So that i dont build a ramp that is neither too steep nor too flat ?

Sorry if that question sounds too theoretical. But my GF and my daughter are at the greatgrandma's and i dont have to work today, so thats too much idle time on my hands right now ...

 

[blut wump]

After a bit of experience it's kind of by feel. You use what you think is good to get you to the week 3 weight in a couple of jumps in the DualFactor version. If you want a figure to work with then try 10% or 12.5% each week so you'd begin with 75% or 80% of your week 3 target. 80% is probably a good choice for week 1. A better conditioned lifter might take it flatter.

In the SingleFactor version you are looking to make new PRs every week and those small plates enable you to do it and still make the volume. Most gyms go down to 2.5 lb plates or 1.25Kg. One of those on each end is 5lbs or more which can be a lot even for those lifting two or three hundred pounds. They can also be useful when moving from week3 to week4 or week8 to week9 if running the 3x per week Intensity phase.

Breaking PRs is often very hard by its nature and getting even an extra pound indicates a increase. They're not stricly necessary, though. If you don't have them you can hammer away repeating a weight until you get it but I think that puts a little more strain on the CNS compared with making your reps.

 

[Maks]

Ah ok, thanks.

I havent really thought about the differences between SF and DF, but what you say makes absolutely sense. Of course, if you have to keep on increasing every week and dont deload after 4-5, then very small increases are certainly the way to go otherwise it would be too fast.

around 80 % of the max on week one for the DF - thats a figure i can work with. Oh boy oh boy oh boy i cant wait for the second cycle to start .... )))

 

[Madcow2]

The benefit of small plates isn't about 1lbs increases. It's about working with specific numbers and percents. With 5lbs (2 x 2.5lbs) you wind up rounding a lot and typically get odd larger jumps at intervals when the rounding is forced up. Small plates allow you to be precise and consistent. In addition 5lbs is 2.5% of a 200lbs lift. Assuming someone is doing 200lbs for 5 reps on all lifts is probably a bit aggressive for novice lifters so that's 2.5% right there which makes for very significant jumps week to week and at the margin where you are looking for some extra progession on really tough top sets from the previous week, that jump can be too big.

Anyway, for the DF version - you just have to be hitting PRs in weeks 3/4. If you've run it before and typically make the majority of your lifts, you should probably consider trying to make both week 3 and 4 a PR attempt rather than just equaling in week 3 and exceeding once in week 4. There's too much variation in people using this program to guage what the jumps should be - you just need to be able to handle the weights by week 3 and 4. If you are getting a lot stronger in the volume phase, you'll have to have flexible targets or timelines to put you at proper weight.

 

[Protobuilder]

I'll just toss in that I'm running the single factor version and the 1.25 lb. plates that I picked up from Paragon online -- http://www.paragonsports.com -- have really helped me on my upper body lifts (esp. bench), which are under 200.

 

[Maks]

Well ... ok ... the boss said PRs in week 3 and 4 ... right !!!

I will try that on my next cycle, with 2,5 kg jumps between the weeks. (thats the lowest my gym has to offer) Looks pretty intense from the start, beginning with -2,5 kg from your max in the first week ...

If that doesnt work out, i will go and get some of them lighter plates although i know that i will get odd looks from the other guys. But i already get that now so what the hell.
But shouldnt be the jump from the first to the second week a little bit higher then ? To allow a little bit of deloading after the heavy 3x3s ?

Thanks again !

Darn i have to eat more ...

 

[Madcow2]

Records in weeks 3 and 4 does not mean equaling a PR in week 2 and starting 2.5kg below those records in week 1. That's basically 4 weeks of pretty heavy workload that's all but equivalent. You need to make bigger jumps, week 2 doesn't need to equal PRs, it just needs to put you in line for a PR attempt in week 3. Tiny jumps increase the density and you lose significant scaling. Start lighter, take more weeks if you need it to get your lifts ready. When I screwed around with this program in my overtraining experiments, I basically held off on records but made very small jumps week to week with near record weight. You won't last a long time doing that - I think I made somewhere around 8 weeks before I almost dropped dead (i.e. well beyond overreaching and into overtraining, had to take time off and around 4 weeks to recover decently - just burned up). The advantage of small plates is that people typically train by percents so 80%1RM and then increasing all lifts 5% the next week can be handled precisely regardless of the lift or his capacity (i.e. rounding 5lbs is only a small fudge on a 400x5 squatter but if that same guy's strict military is only 185x5, that's a big percentage jump and rounding can screw it up hugely).

 

[Maks]

Oh .. ok !

So thats the reason why i asked, actually. Ok, so you say that 2,5 kg jumps between all of the weeks is too little - the ramp would be too flat. (depending on the individual skills of the lifter, of course)

So - ok, with a PR in week 3 i probably can raise the weight only a little in week 4, 2,5 kg would be already quite high for most of my lifts. But the raises from week 1 to 2 to 3 should be higher, right ? To make a proper ramp ? Which doesnt have to be necessarily a straight line, but can be a kind of curve ? Like, around 15% from week 1 to 2, 10 % from week 2 to 3 with an attempt of PR, and then a 2,5-5% raise to week 4 with PR again (depending on the exercise) ?

Thanks again !

 

[Madcow2]

Percentages are very individual. If you PR in week 3 then your week 4 increase is likely not going to be anywhere near the magnitude of your week 1 to 2 increase. For very strong lifters who aren't on top of all their lifts it might take a lot longer to ramp up to PR range. 10% might be an okay jump for some or crush others. This is programming, it requires tailoring to the individual and deliberate thought. It's not rocket science but it does require thought and application. This is why the 5x5 is a good layout, it's easy to understand and very intuitive - it allows people to see the periods clearly and see how workload is changes and leaves them only the task of setting weights in a simple but very effective environment.

 

[Maks]

Erm .. ok. I think i will shut up now, go to the gym, and make up the weights as i go along.

thanks again !

Hehe if that fails i will blame you all, i ASKED, after all

happy lifting !

 

[anotherbutters]

So - ok, with a PR in week 3 i probably can raise the weight only a little in week 4, 2,5 kg would be already quite high for most of my lifts.

If your lifts aren't that great, maybe you'd be better served by the single factor. What do you squat/bench/deadlift? How old are you and how much do you weigh?

 

[Maks]

*blushes*

32 years old, 1,90 m height, around 85 kg, unknown BF

with the lifts thats a hard question ... i really dont know. Just started with dls and deep squats, im still struggling with the form, dls with 60 kg 5x5 , squats with 70 kg 5x5 right now. It feels pretty light that way, im increasing them 5 kg per week, i probably wont hit my max in this cycle, planning to stretch the volume phase to 6 weeks though. On Friday i benched 5x 80kg, there is still some air in it i feel but not far as much as for the dls/squats. Yeah i know its pretty embarassing. And rediculous - benching more than dling/squatting ...

I've been hitting the gym on and off for some years now (7-8 ? not sure ...) but i always did what the other guys did - all that shitty half-hearted gym stuff. Lots of isolation, no core training, man, there wasnt even a BB for squatting/dling in the gym. Noone really knew what they were doing. There were guys with good gains, but they took lots of roids - thats no choice for me. I always have trouble gaining weight due to high work load in real life and no proper eating. I really dont know why i kept on going all that time, motivation has been really low the last years.

Well, and - lo and behold - recently i stumbled about this amazing site - first i thought its all about anabolics again, but no ! a whole forum with training/ exercises only !! So im pretty excited about this 5x5 stuff, motivation is up again, and im hitting the gym again regularly in high spirits (its a different gym now, they do have stations for free squatting, although the people are kind of strange).

Really, sometimes i think motivation is the main part, and if you have a program you really believe in you will get good gains. No matter if the program is really good or not, if you really BELIEVE ... kind of stupid, hu ?

Anyways, you guys have hooked me up now, there is no way of me letting go again for quite some time.

Cheers !

 

[Protobuilder]

I'd say you're definitely a candidate for teh single-factor version. Basically, you don't do the dual factor version until you really need the hard-and-fast periodization to make gains. You're not at that point. You might as well milk the single-factor version, especially if you're still getting adjusted to the basic compounds (squats & DLs). It's a lot easier to set up as well so you might find it easier to stay motivated -- less haggling over all the "week 3" vs. "week 8" crap.

 

[anotherbutters]

lol, no offence, but I think my first question when someone asks about the DF is always going to be the one I asked above. Nothing to blush about, we all have to start somewhere. You have to match the training to the person's needs though, which is why I asked.

It's easy to jump onto the dual factor. It is a good program and it will yield good results. But it's more suitable for someone who is at the stage where their gains have slowed down and the simpler programs no longer work (say, after 2 years of hard training). It's a slow program suited for people who are gaining slowly. The single factor is suited to people at an earlier stage of their lifting career as it takes advantage of the rapid progress they're capable of.

Have a read of the single factor and try that instead. It'll be quicker for you. Here's a new table of contents that madcow's working on, with an updated description: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm

Incidentally, did you read about both the single factor and dual factor and choose between them? Or did you read about the dual factor and not know about the single factor? I ask because it's traditionally been the case that people jump onto the dual factor when the single factor would serve them better.

 

[Maks]

Somehow i always get a site not found error on those geocities threads ...

Yes i've read both of the 5x5 programs, including all of them threads. Hehe except for the geocities ones.

Yes i simply jumped to the DF version. First, i wanted to do something totally different from the things i did before. Ok, doing all those basic lifts is very much different. But with periodization it is even more. I know it sounds kind of stupid, but im so sick of the routines i did all those years. Second, the SF is assuming that you still gain easily, and frankly, i dont think that i will. After i stop struggling with the form, getting better will be slow. But you are right, at least i should have tried out the SF version until i hit stagnation. Maybe i got overexcited.

Well, i think i will complete this DF cycle no matter what. I really like the idea, and so far it is really fun. And, honestly, i dont expect to explode in strength and weight simply by changing my program. Real life usually doesnt work like that. But anyways, even a slight progress would be so darn GREAT !!! It has been stagnation or decline for me the last years, and i already had made up my mind that progress is something that happens to other people. So, if i can increase my performance with DF or SF a little bit i will be one really happy man !

So, maybe i will consider SF after my first DF cycle, depending on how i feel and how much room for improvement on the side conditions (eating, resting) i have. LoL thats the way you did it as well from what i read

Ok, thanks for all that input guys, i really appreciate it. Its really sad when you cant talk to your friends about an important part of your spare time. They think im crazy going to the gym lifting weights. I already was accused taking anabolics ... can you imagine that ? Me ? With those body measures ???

Well enough of that ranting.

Thanks again !

 

[Madcow2]

Somehow i always get a site not found error on those geocities threads ...

Yes i've read both of the 5x5 programs, including all of them threads. Hehe except for the geocities ones.

Which ones? I've never heard of anyone having an issue with the site:

Main: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/
TOC: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm
Linear/SF: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm
Periodized/DF: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm

Maybe it's a certain link in the TOC (i.e. the Angelface Training Theory one is pointing no where at the moment).

 

[anotherbutters]

I know what you mean. When I started, I spent quite a lot of time spinning my wheels without getting anywhere too. I also jumped into the DF first, although I can't remember whether I'd read about the SF at the time. madcow has put a lot of effort into rewriting the descriptions and directing people towards the program that's most suitable for them, hence my question as to where you'd read about them.

My DF didn't work brilliantly, but that's because I wasn't eating enough (around 2300 cals). After that, I started eating more (around 3800 cals) and switched to the SF. I was also skeptical, but I seemed to set a new PR every week and carried on that way for quite a long time. Skepticism over! I'm about your age and started from roughly the same position.

If you have some free time on your hands, you might be interested in how I got on. Here's a link to my journal on this site: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=413888

If you want to see the results, go to page 14, post #265. It gets a bit boring after that because I hurt my back, but it should give you an idea of what could be in store for you if you stick with it and eat enough to put on weight.

BTW, the geocities links have always worked fine for me.

 

[Maks]

Which ones? I've never heard of anyone having an issue with the site:

Main: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/
TOC: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm
Linear/SF: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm
Periodized/DF: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm

Maybe it's a certain link in the TOC (i.e. the Angelface Training Theory one is pointing no where at the moment).

All of them. I get a "Site not found error" with all of your links in this post. I get it when i click on it, when i try to open it in a new window, and when i do a copy/paste in the address bar.
Well, i suppose a google search will get me eventually there (although on my first try i got lots of results for mad cow disease )

 

[blut wump]

You must have something odd with your settings or your ISP. I just clicked on each of those links and every one worked for me.

 

[Maks]

I really dont know what that could be ... i use the standard explorer settings, i only have switched off java (which shouldnt be a problem) and i already tried without the firewall - no success ...

 

[blut wump]

In which case, I might suggest you have malware on your machine.

You might want to take a look at this
http://www.majorgeeks.com/download3155.html

Meanwhile try another browser. Firefox is cool:
http://www.mozilla.com/

 

[Maks]

Anotherbutters - yes, ive already read your journal - well, most of it. Really impressive. Congratulations I will try it out - the one way or the other

the limiting factor atm might be the food ... i really have to work on this.

 

[Maks]

Hm ... this hijack stuff looks like serious business, it will take some time for me to make this work.

With firefox its not much better, i get something like:

Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:40:23 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix) mod_perl/1.27 PHP/4.3.0
Content-Type: text/html
Content-Encoding: gzip
Content-Description: "index.html"

He ....

 

[Maks]

YESSS !! it worked ! thanks BW ! there was a redirect link which didnt work ... i never would have found that myself ...

 

[anotherbutters]

the limiting factor atm might be the food ... i really have to work on this.

Drinking lots of milk in addition to your existing diet is the easiest way of getting more calories and protein into your system. Not the best, but easiest.

Or if you have a blender, throw in 2 pints of milk, 2 bananas, a cup of oats, a big spoon of natural peanut butter and some whey. That's good enough for 2 shakes that you can put into a bottle and take to work with you, have them in between meals. That will add something like 1500-2000 cals to your daily intake depending on how carried away you get with the ingredients.

 

[blut wump]

YESSS !! it worked ! thanks BW ! there was a redirect link which didnt work ... i never would have found that myself ...

Woah! Slow down. What worked? The HijackThis stuff? Good news that it's sorted, anyway.

 

[Maks]

believe it or not, there are working places where you cant eat or drink, meals are out of question, but i will try them shakes out and hopefully i can steal a few secs to gulp it down ...

 

[Maks]

Woah! Slow down. What worked? The HijackThis stuff? Good news that it's sorted, anyway.

Yes the HijackThis stuff did the trick. I have no real idea what i edited there, but i followed the instructions on the website and threw a lot of garbage out, including 2 redirect links from geocities. And, so far, the system is still working. AND i can visit Madcow's site.

Thanks again !

 

[blut wump]

Many thanks for the feedback. Glad to help.

 

[Maks]

Thanks for the K ! *jumps excitedly up and down*

I just discovered the "recieved karma history" thingy - thanks to the other guys who gave me some too