Rough Averages

[foxriver]

*****WARNING: If you don't want to read my background info and just want to get to the actual question, just scroll to the very bottom.******


I figured my first post here would be to figure out where I want to be physically, but at this point I'm not sure what my body will allow, nor do I have an idea of where I need to be, if this makes any sense.

To put it plainly, I am currently about 6'1", 205 lbs. and I can only guess my BF% is somewhere around 25-30%. I have been going to the gym seriously for about 9 months now, by seriously I mean 3-4 times a week as thats about all I can do for now due to other life obligations. I do not like to do cardio, and my stubbornness kept telling me that diet and strength training alone would get me where I wanted to be, but deep down always knew I'd have to do something sometime. I have lost about 50 lbs. since December of 2004, my pants are a 36 waist, but are a little loose, although not much I do have to wear a belt with them though.

I'm thinking the body type I would like to have, is one that sort of looks like an Olympic swimmer (even though I am not a strong swimmer, the desired effect is the same) over a powerlifter or bodybuilder type. I want to lower the bodyfat, while increasing muscle mass a little bit, and ultimately toning. This is of course, how I feel now. I may decide something totally different in a few years, but this is the best way I know to start.

So I have in fact decided to be more serious with getting healthier, I will be logging pysical activity, water consumption, what foods I am eating, and the amount of calories to fat to carbohydrate to protein intake, etc. as well as CLOSELY monitoring portion control, which I haven't done up until know. I realize most of you veterans are already screaming at me, and like I said deep down I knew what I should be doing, but apparently didn't have the proper motivation... until now.

I can't give you any accurate measurements at the moment, as I need to get something other than a carpenter's tape measure to figure it out. (its all I have at the moment.) I was thinking maybe one of those tailor's tapes? The yellow cloth/vinyl ones?


This long-winded post did have a point, and I'll come to it now:

Does anyone happen to have a general idea what the muscle sizes (girth measurements?) are for someone who would fit in the 6' - 6'3" light-heavyweight (175-200 lbs) swimmer-type build? I'd like to use the numbers as a guide, so that I can actually see if I am making some progress, and will help to motivate me further until I reach or surpass those goals.

 

[Cynical Simian]

at the warning.

It's a cliche, but you've already done the most important and difficult thing by figuring out what you need to do to change and committing to doing it.

As for your question, coincidentally madcow made a great post (was "great" redundant there? ) about goals earlier today, which you might have already seen. Basically, just keep lifting and trying to improve and, especially with your diet under control, you'll probably like what you see in the mirror. Use yourself, not some ideal of a bodytype that might be completely different from yours, to measure progress, whether in appearance or strength.

And, of course, welcome to the board, although I think you violated the rule that all first posts have to be unintelligent and related to biceps/curls or chest/bench.

 

[foxriver]

at the warning.

You like that? Some people just don't care and I'd still like the input before they get bored reading about me.

Use yourself, not some ideal of a bodytype that might be completely different from yours, to measure progress, whether in appearance or strength.

I understand what you are saying here, and maybe I didn't quite make my point in the right way. What I want to know and what I want to accomplish, is to create lean muscle, and to be properly proportioned, and by my requirements as for myself which is something like a swimmer, or the look of a comic book hero such as Silver Surfer (I know comic book heroes are drawn disproportionately the way that a Barbie doll is, but just the general idea of it is where I want to be.)

I used to weigh about 185 in my senior year of high school. My freshman year of college I skipped the freshman 15 and went straight for the frat guy 40 (even though I never joined a fraternity). I remained pretty constant while I worked after college in a form of manual labor, but the office job I have now has been less than kind as I find myself in front of a computer all day where most of my exercise consists of typing and getting up now and then to go to the shared printer.

What I don't want is to have biceps larger than my head, triceps that look like a lamb shank, a barrel chest that looks like I'm ready to go over the niagra falls, and toothpicks for legs. This is why I want to get some feedback on what the so-called "proper" proportions are. And again it's not mantra, just a general idea for me to look forward to. And if I'm not happy with what I look like after I reach that goal, I can push further. To be perfectly honest, I don't even know if my body type will look good (to me) at these hypothetical proportions, but its a good place to start. And thanks for the quick reply!

 

[Protobuilder]

I like the warning too. Otherwise, my post would've just said, "What does it say?"

Here's the link to Madcow'd post today re: body image/psychology. http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6403735&postcount=23

Re: measurements . . . don't look for an objective measurement and guage your progress against that. Instead, measure yourself right now, and work against THOSE measurements. Somebody could say "your biceps should measure 16" but that's a bunch of crap. Are yours 12" right now? Then don't worry about 16. Worry about 13. And then worry about 14, etc. You are what you are. Either you're too skinny and don't fit the mold, in which case you should just worry about adding a bit here and a bit there over time. And if you're already bigger than average, so what? Sit around and be happy about it or keep pushing to become way beyond average. And if you're average, then so what? Either you want to work/change things or you don't. In the end, the answer's the same: work hard and start improving YOUR measurements. Screw some "objective" average.

 

[foxriver]

Screw some "objective" average.

Ok considering you are the second person to tell me that, I think I can accept that as a real answer.

I looked at Madcow's geocities page regarding the 5x5 method and I think that would be a good change to the boring 3 sets of 12-15 I have been doing for the last 9 months. I'd like to think of those as my warm up session.

While I want to build muscle and lose fat, my biggest problem areas are the entire midsection (traps, delts, lats, lower back, obliques, abdominals in general really, and pecs). Not that my arms and legs are huge by any means, but there is a lot less fat there than the rest of my body. I can wave at someone and not have the skin under my arm slap me in the face when I stop, and I think my legs are pretty solid from having to carry around all the extra weight.

So having said that, the 5x5 seems to neglect the sub pec region a bit, and I didn't see any worthwhile threads through the search area to suggest a good plan of action. While I don't necessarily know the name of the thing, I do plan on using that 45 degree angle "stand" to do obliques and lower back. At this point, I think it may be tough to use weights to do them. As for regular abdominals, I figured I should use the decline bench and that thing where you hang on an upright "stand" and pull your legs straight up at a 90 degree angle. (I think I should get a weightlifting dictionary, seriously.) I also would like to do at least a 25 minute interval cardio session as well with a 5 min warmup and cooldown. Does this seem like I should get rid of the spare tire properly? Is there anything I am missing? Any threads with further suggestions?

I'd like to start everything on Monday next week, and I'm attempting to plan it all out now. I will be using Madcow's 5x5 spreadsheet, as well as a diet/exercise spreadsheet I made yesterday.

 

[Cynical Simian]

Ok considering you are the second person to tell me that, I think I can accept that as a real answer.

Sorry that our responses didn't directly answer the question, but I really think it's the best answer. Just keep trying to get your levels of muscle mass and bodyfat to a point you like rather than shooting for an exact goal.

So having said that, the 5x5 seems to neglect the sub pec region a bit, and I didn't see any worthwhile threads through the search area to suggest a good plan of action.

Uh, it won't feel neglected after your first Wednesday (deadlift) workout. But seriously, you use your core on nearly all of the compound lifts, and the hypers and direct ab work should be plenty. Maybe add Needsize's ab exercise at the end of one of the workouts as well.

You might already know it, but if so it wasn't clear from your post: spot reduction is a myth. Getting rid of the fat on your torso is a matter of energy balance, not of exercises that work that area. As for cardio, intervals are great, although I'd suggest waiting a week or two before adding anything to the program. Lighter aerobic-level cardio (incline treadmill walking, for example) on the off days would be another good option for fat loss that shouldn't hamper recovery much.

Also, you might consider giving the Rippetoe 3x5 a try before jumping to the ramped (linear) 5x5. GSP made great progress on it with a similar background of casual/unstructured lifting.

 

[Protobuilder]

What does your post say?

 

[foxriver]

Uh, it won't feel neglected after your first Wednesday (deadlift) workout. But seriously, you use your core on nearly all of the compound lifts, and the hypers and direct ab work should be plenty. Maybe add Needsize's ab exercise at the end of one of the workouts as well.

Where exactly can I find this "hyper" thing I keep seeing? I'm not quite sure what it is. As far as the cardio is concerned, I had planned on doing it on the off days.

You might already know it, but if so it wasn't clear from your post: spot reduction is a myth.

I didn't realize that I would still be working the abs in quite the way of normal ab exercises, which is why I didn't want to neglect them. I suppose I'll know what you mean after the first week or so. If I'm not happy I think I'll look into that "Needsize's ab exercise" you talked about. (It seems my searching is lacking, can you post the thread for me please?)

Lighter aerobic-level cardio (incline treadmill walking, for example) on the off days would be another good option for fat loss that shouldn't hamper recovery much.

I may just decide, since the weather is nice, to go walking on the street on the off days. At least until it cools off and I need to find something else to do, or even if I need any added cardio at all.

Thanks again for all the helpful info. It truly shows that I've selected the right bodybuilding forum to join!

 

[Cynical Simian]

I didn't realize that I would still be working the abs in quite the way of normal ab exercises, which is why I didn't want to neglect them.

You were correct that some direct ab work is needed. That's why the program description for the linear 5x5 includes a couple of days with sit-ups (one of which you could replace with Needsize's exercise) and why Mark Rippetoe talks about the importance of ab strength and recommends weighted Roman Chair sit-ups in Starting Strength. I can't recommend that book strongly enough - it covers most of the compound lifts that should be the basis of whatever program you decide to do.

The "Needsize Abs" link, along with a link to an exercise directory (where you can find hyperextensions) and a lot of other good stuff is in the sticky.

What does your post say?

 

[fortunatesun]

You were correct that some direct ab work is needed. That's why the program description for the linear 5x5 includes a couple of days with sit-ups (one of which you could replace with Needsize's exercise) and why Mark Rippetoe talks about the importance of ab strength and recommends weighted Roman Chair sit-ups in Starting Strength. I can't recommend that book strongly enough - it covers most of the compound lifts that should be the basis of whatever program you decide to do.

The "Needsize Abs" link, along with a link to an exercise directory (where you can find hyperextensions) and a lot of other good stuff is in the sticky.

If you want to 'think swimmer', ab work would def. be very high on your list of priorities. Or, as the catchphrase is - strengthening the core. This is most important to swimmers, and probably something they have in common with us. Otherwise, even if you don't aspire to the musclebound look, everyone is correct in saying to stick with the basic, compound lifts that are the center of programs like Starting Strength and 5x5. This is the only way to build a proper foundation and the only way that will take you to where you want to go. In a way, weight training has an advantage over specialized sports. You start with a simple approach and stay with it until you're smart enough to figure a way you can fine tune it to meet your personal goals.

 

[Protobuilder]

LoL Not YOUR post. HIS post. His first post had a warning. The 2d one was too long and had no summary. LoL I ran out of brain power during the 2d sentence. Hence, "what does it say?"

 

[blut wump]

Ab work regardless. Your core is central to your functional strength.

Decline situps are a great general ab exercise. Add weight when you can.

 

[Tweakle]

they certainly do not look like superheros, assuming they were 6'2"ish I would guess the average proportions would be 16" arms, 44" chest, 32" waist, 25" leg, 12% bf ish. Bigger than cosmo models for sure, but not like lwt natural bbers (and olympic swimmers are most certainly not natural)

Which should be achieveable for a natural with +/- average potential with hard training.

how to get there, same as anything else.. you train hard for several years and your body expresses it's genetics if you stay progressive and eat enough. Don't worry about oversize bis etc, that isn't going to happen to you.

 

[foxriver]

So I plan on starting the 3x5 tomorrow through your suggestions, which I'll agree is probably the best bet, since I have not done much of these combination lifts if at all. Before I officially "start" the program, I figure it will take me a few weeks to figure out A) proper form (looking at a picture, video, or reading about doesn't mean a damn thing if you can't apply it) B)figuring out where my starting weights should be, and C) making sure I am doing the program right.

So I'll start with issue "C" for the moment.

I believe in the 5x5, on a M, W, F schedule, Wednesday was a "light" day with squats. There was no mention of this in the 3x5, so I wonder if I keep the weights constant through the week, or if it was an oversight, and you should take it a little easier on the second lifting day.

So for the sake of easy math and argument, let's say a squat on Monday @ 100 lbs. If I read about the 5x5 correctly, it would be 100 lbs on Monday, a little less, maybe last set at 85-90 lbs., and Friday's last set would be 102.5 lbs., which you would start with on the next Monday.

In a 3x5, would it be Monday = 100 lbs, Wednesday = 100 lbs., and Friday =102.5 lbs., and the following week just start with Friday's end weight? I'm sorta low on cash at the moment, (seems all my bills are due at the beginning of the month) so maybe next week I can get my hands on Starting Strength, but I'd rather not wait another week to start if I can help it. I'm in a wedding on September 30th, and I'd like 10-15 lbs of muscle by then, or if nothing else than to fill out my suit a little better.

 

[Cynical Simian]

There weren't any oversights - just run the 3x5 exactly as described in the sticky, without trying to apply the progression "rules" of a program at a different point on the "5x5 continuum" (the linear 5x5) to it.

This post, the post to which it links, and probably the rest of that thread as well should help you see out how 5x5-style training fits into the proverbial big picture. Like I said above, it's a continuum, and the three programs are just cookie-cutters that work pretty well for people at different points on it.

 

[foxriver]

There weren't any oversights - just run the 3x5 exactly as described in the sticky, without trying to apply the progression "rules" of a program at a different point on the "5x5 continuum" (the linear 5x5) to it.

This post, the post to which it links, and probably the rest of that thread as well should help you see out how 5x5-style training fits into the proverbial big picture. Like I said above, it's a continuum, and the three programs are just cookie-cutters that work pretty well for people at different points on it.

Thank you for making it crystal clear. I will have to start a new thread to post progress. You've been a great help.

P.S. Thanks for being patient with a noobie!!