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Re-Post: WHAT IS PALESTINE?

Weapon X

New member
Myths of the Middle East
Originally Published October 11, 2000 by WorldNetDaily
By Joseph Farah

I've been quiet since Israel erupted in fighting spurred by disputes over the Temple Mount.

Until now, I haven't even bothered to say, "See, I told you so." But I can't resist any longer. I feel compelled to remind you of the column I wrote just a couple weeks before the latest uprising. Yeah, folks, I predicted it. That's OK. Hold your applause. After all, I wish I had been wrong. More than 80 people have been killed since the current fighting in and around Jerusalem began. And for what?

If you believe what you read in most news sources, Palestinians want a homeland and Muslims want control over sites they consider holy. Simple, right? Well, as an Arab-American journalist who has spent some time in the Middle East dodging more than my share of rocks and mortar shells, I've got to tell you that these are just phony excuses for the rioting, trouble-making and land-grabbing.

Isn't it interesting that prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, there was no serious movement for a Palestinian homeland? "Well, Farah," you might say, "that was before the Israelis seized the West Bank and Old Jerusalem."

That's true. In the Six-Day War, Israel captured Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem. But they didn't capture these territories from Yasser Arafat. They captured them from Jordan's King Hussein. I can't help but wonder why all these Palestinians suddenly discovered their national identity after Israel won the war.

The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power.

Palestine has never existed -- before or since -- as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.

There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough.

What about Islam's holy sites? There are none in Jerusalem.

Shocked? You should be. I don't expect you will ever hear this brutal truth from anyone else in the international media. It's just not politically correct. I know what you're going to say: "Farah, the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem represent Islam's third most holy sites." Not true. In fact, the Koran says nothing about Jerusalem. It mentions Mecca hundreds of times. It mentions Medina countless times. It never mentions Jerusalem. With good reason. There is no historical evidence to suggest Mohammed ever visited Jerusalem.

So how did Jerusalem become the third holiest site of Islam? Muslims today cite a vague passage in the Koran, the seventeenth Sura, entitled "The Night Journey." It relates that in a dream or a vision Mohammed was carried by night "from the sacred temple to the temple that is most remote, whose precinct we have blessed, that we might show him our signs. ..." In the seventh century, some Muslims identified the two temples mentioned in this verse as being in Mecca and Jerusalem. And that's as close as Islam's connection with Jerusalem gets -- myth, fantasy, wishful thinking. Meanwhile, Jews can trace their roots in Jerusalem back to the days of Abraham.

The latest round of violence in Israel erupted when Likud Party leader Ariel Sharon tried to visit the Temple Mount, the foundation of the Temple built by Solomon. It is the holiest site for Jews. Sharon and his entourage were met with stones and threats. I know what it's like. I've been there. Can you imagine what it is like for Jews to be threatened, stoned and physically kept out of the holiest site in Judaism?

So what's the solution to the Middle East mayhem? Well, frankly, I don't think there is a man-made solution to the violence. But, if there is one, it needs to begin with truth. Pretending will only lead to more chaos. Treating a 5,000-year-old birthright backed by overwhelming historical and archaeological evidence equally with illegitimate claims, wishes and wants gives diplomacy and peacekeeping a bad name.
 
Like I said, IF it was the Democratic Liberation of Palestine that was responsible for the numerous attacks on American soil and its citizens this morning (and which by any means could continue), we must not rest until those that were responsible have paid. And pay they will...

Like G.W. said, "America will pass this test."

And, I can definitely think of another country that would JUMP at the chance to allign with the United States of America in 'unleashing hell' on this so-called "Palestine!"
 
wish i would have stumbled upon this earlier. Glad its a sticky.

Now you do know I have reservations on anyhing I read anymore this included.

I know that the sky is blue and thats a fact.
 
A thought

this is just a thought but has anyone pointed a finger at China yet. I mean obviously everyone is pointing at the middleeast but I for one think this was too well organized and needed to many resources to be pulled off without the help of a government. Granted I could be wrong but I wouldnt' put this past the chinese government. This stinks of the kind of cloak and dagger stuff that their history is full of.

anyway just a thought what do you think?
 
Badkins21 said:

Like G.W. said, "America will pass this test."


G.W. is a dim bulb. He called the terrorist "folks" as in "We're going to get the folks that did this." Excuse me while I hide my face is shame that this is the representative (spokesmodel) for our country. I just hope Chaney is there to tell G.W. what to do.
 
Re: A thought

Cromagnum said:
this is just a thought but has anyone pointed a finger at China yet. I mean obviously everyone is pointing at the middleeast but I for one think this was too well organized and needed to many resources to be pulled off without the help of a government. Granted I could be wrong but I wouldnt' put this past the chinese government. This stinks of the kind of cloak and dagger stuff that their history is full of.

anyway just a thought what do you think?

Or North Korea.
 
Wrong thought

Cromagnum said:
this is just a thought but has anyone pointed a finger at China yet. I mean obviously everyone is pointing at the middleeast but I for one think this was too well organized and needed to many resources to be pulled off without the help of a government. Granted I could be wrong but I wouldnt' put this past the chinese government. This stinks of the kind of cloak and dagger stuff that their history is full of.

anyway just a thought what do you think?

it is very hard to believe it where the Chinese who did this.
It where Muslims no doubt. But terrorists and it is very difficult to do anything about that.

http://209.11.101.244/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49798

Reread this, some of you better reconsider their answer.

Muslims already bombed in the USA, so now they most likely did it again.

And those who say "they are sorry it happened like Arafat, but do they really?

Whether is where Muslims or not (i spoke with some today at the gym), not one convict this. Some are not for the attacks, but sure are not against it. Some come in the streets to shout and make slogans. So don't blame the Chinese.
 
Extra Edition

Here in SC they just came out with an Extra edition of the paper. I find the title to be chillingly fitting "America Undersiege"
 
One of my best friends lives in China, he is staying there because the economy is booming! Its booming because of several factors, I do not believe that China is involved only because they have the most to lose. Dont get me wrong, I do not support China or even like it but I'll visit it and I dont think they would be involved. Just My opinion.

##spiderbaby##
 
I wanna nuke em all, the fucking middle east and there goddamm Holy war and religious convictions are going to be the downfall of the world if its not eradicated. I AM so fucking pissed
 
Peach, big deal that Bush used the term "folks". Why does everyone care that he has an accent and uses the language from the area he grew up around. I know several cowboy types that use the word "howdy", but that does not mean they are ignorant, stupid, or unintelligent. Since our language derived from the british, then we are all idiots for not speaking exactly like they do.
 
it doesnt matter what Bush said.......one thing I know Palestine isnt a country, but I truly think the real enemy is Ben Laden. Palestinians are just poor dumb fuckers with no money for such acts......
 
MP5 said:
Peach, big deal that Bush used the term "folks". Why does everyone care that he has an accent and uses the language from the area he grew up around. I know several cowboy types that use the word "howdy", but that does not mean they are ignorant, stupid, or unintelligent. Since our language derived from the british, then we are all idiots for not speaking exactly like they do.


Drew, I was not making fun of his accent, honey, I have a little tiny Texas accent since I do live in...Texas. :rolleyes:

G.W. is ignorant because he is...well...a little slow in the noggin. I have a right to my opinion, if you are going to start jumping ass because of people's opinions, then we are going to argue, buddy. :mad: I luv ya though. Pissant!!!! :D
 
Weapon X said:
Peach, you misspelled "Cheney." Should we mock you as you mock the Preident?

...


I guess I should say I am sorry, please forgive me and UNSTICK this thread that I was responsible for sticking if you are going to attack me for giving my opinion.

Besides, I am a Texan, I have a right to rib the pre"s"ident if I want and I wanted. :D
 
This whole attack seems too sophisticated to be the work of Arabs.


I think it's a little premature to direct anger towards to Arabs when we in fact don't know all the details.
 
Take into account that an FBI agent riding in a helicopter with the head Islamic asshole (I don't remember his name) who was responsible for the 1995 bombing of the WTC as it flew over the WTC described this:

The holier-than-thou Islamic looked out over the damaged WTC and smiled. The FBI agent asked what he thought he was smiling about, saying "It's still standing" (and probably added a few explitives). The Abu answered along the lines of, "It wouldn't be if I had more money and time."
 
Re: A thought

Cromagnum said:
this is just a thought but has anyone pointed a finger at China yet. I mean obviously everyone is pointing at the middleeast but I for one think this was too well organized and needed to many resources to be pulled off without the help of a government. Granted I could be wrong but I wouldnt' put this past the chinese government. This stinks of the kind of cloak and dagger stuff that their history is full of.

anyway just a thought what do you think?


Trust me.... Chinese... or the Communist Chinese that you might be referring to... are too busy opening up the economy and making money for staging a big fanatic show like this....

Same holds out for North Korea. They won't.

I can bet my head on this!

In Asia... it's always the Islamic fundamentalists that all governments are watching closely....
 
if your going to post stuff like that, please post one for the other side's opinion too, its only fair.

In the 1940s Theodr Herzl published a book on Zionism calling all Jews to return to Jerusalem. At this time Jerusalem was a sand-pit that was sustained by local Arabs that called themselves Palestinians. A flood of young jews returned to Jerusalem and made the biblical location a middle eastern power. The Palestinians, who are Islamic, were basically sidestepped and have tried to overthrow the alien yoke so that they can practice their religion without restraint, this goal follows the principles of Jihad, a practice shared by Osama Bin Laden, a wealthy Islamic terrorist who has Jihad in mind on a global level. Because the Israel government supports republican ideals and has a great deal of resources, the US sided with Israel and aided in the massacre of the native Palestinians. The "war" against Palestinians consists of their "terrorist" attacks against Israelis that are retaliated against with unprecedented brutality against innocent Muslims. The US knowingly supplied weapons and funds for the Israeli government to massacre Muslims. The attack against the US is likely a strike back for the hundreds of thousands of muslims dead as a result of US weapons. For several academics in the field, it wasn't a question of whether or not the palestinians would strike back at the states, it was a question of when.

Keeping in mind that a muslim life is worth just as much as an American life; the most reasonable action right now would be for America to withdraw its support for Israel. that's all. it's as simple as that. Of course, this'll never happen. Which is too bad.


Osama Bin Laden is actually bigger than all of this. His ties are not only with Palestine, but with all Islamic communities struggling to practice their faith in the midst of oppressive governments across the world. He is the poster boy for an Islamic planet. I saw his handiwork when I lived in Malaysia.

The one thing that we must keep in mind.
The most important thing, is to detach the stigma of "terrorists" from Muslims who do not believe in Jihad. I believe the worst consequence of all this will be an intense tide of racism towards those of middle-eastern origin.
 
fuck both sides of this "opinion" fuck all of you arabians, palestians, whatever you call yourselves. I dont care if your "american-arab" or whatever that bullshit is. You should get the hell out of this country. Maybe we can fly some passenger jets full of your innocent children into your cheering masses. When your almost dead and bleeding then you can look down at your child that you were holding and see the lifeless body that was once warm and caring. Yes, thats right, and you'll know that there is no heaven with allah and seven virgins in your future, but only a hell where the sounds of your dying children torment you asking why you have done this to them. make no mistake, true-blooded americans will not stand for what has happened today, and my rage along with the rage of countless millions will be projected, and it will be an act far worse than what has been brought upon us.
 
BigDdaGanjalist said:


The one thing that we must keep in mind.
The most important thing, is to detach the stigma of "terrorists" from Muslims who do not believe in Jihad. I believe the worst consequence of all this will be an intense tide of racism towards those of middle-eastern origin.

I Paint them all with the same Brush. :mad:
 
Captain_insano said:


I Paint them all with the same Brush. :mad:


Why are some of you guys being so intolerant. Tolerance is what makes America free. Please try to remember that.

There are fanatics and then there are Middle Easterners. There is a huge difference.
 
intolerant.........................
HOW CAN YOU BE TOLERANT? Maybe you didn't lose anyone but some of the rest of us did. Maybe it's easy for you to sit back and be like oh it's ok not all of them are like that. Fuck that, I am all for the occupation and annhilation of Afganistan for harboring Bin Laden. Fuck pick anyone of those terrorist harboring countries and put them on the list. We'll take them out on our way over to Afgan....

Typical that some bleeding heart would preach tolerance at a time like this. While I'm trying to be tolerant why don't I just right the terrorists a letter and apologize for being an american and beg their forgivness for being Christian.

Maybe you could go over there and ask the terrorists nicely not to crash our planes anymore. I am sure they would respond well to that.

George Bush we are all behind you (except for the fucking bleeding heart tree hugging humanitarians who want to kiss and make up, screw them they don't vote anyway). Go kick some ass George..............
 
Muslims

Hello All,

I wish I could start this post on a happier note, but with the events that have onfolded in the last couple days I am not sure we will have a happer note for quite a while. My heart goes out for those that have died in this tragic attemp. My only hope is that god helps them through these days of pain, and that we find who is responsible.


I however need to be honest. I dont thinke everything said on this board is exactly correct. This outcry of muslim hatred, and promotig anti-muslim propeganda is incrediable incorrect. I have many friends that are muslim (suprisingly.. looking at my orgin), and they have only been nice and kind. I honestly believe that it is not the religion as a whole that is bad, but some of the fundementalist that follow it. I think in every religion you have radical groups. Look at the IRA for Christians, or the Radical Sozahs's for the Jews. They're is always a group withing religions promoting intollerance, and we as a people need to understand the muslims have such groups as well.

Furthermore in refrence to the Jew's and Palistines. I have my friends that in Isreal for quite some time now, and I can tell you first hand, as an unbias sorce that the issue is pretty complicated. (No duh!) First and foremost, there are many many many innocent palistines that are not only treated horribly bad (beaten, tourted, discriminated) but also killed. The belief there is what most can call the old American Indian motto. "The only good indian is a dead indian" IN this case indians can be substitued with palistinians. Now I understand that there are also many inncoent jews that get killed in their home land as well, in particular from terroristic bombings but I believe there are more innocent that have died by the Isrealis hands then by anyone elses. With superior weaponry it really isnt that difficult. The people retaliot back with stones (majority), but what else can they do. Moving back to palistine is not an option, because they think of isreal is their home, and when hoards of people are being treated horribly, their only way to fight back is through the acts of riots. I believe Martin Luther King said it best: "Riots are the voices of people that have been unheard".

Many people can argue the last statistic, and say the innocent that were killed by the hands of the isreals were nto really innocent, but were considered part co-inspirators harboring the terrorists. This again however is incorrect as well. I will be the first to agree, there are some people that choose to harbor terrorits but for the most part, many palistines that are killed by the hands of the isreals are innocent. The isrealies bomb suspected terrostic sites, but never take the inititave to do a full scale invistiagion befoer they start the attack run. I site various schools, that were bombed, because of "suspected" terrost activity. Their lack of consideration causes more terrostic activity and fuels further hatred. Later when the Isralites found this was inccorrect (not a terrostic have). The idea of shooting first ask questions later is the idea best set in the minds of the Insrealies. I have friends that have seen it with their own eyes.

My two cents. My opion. My condolences
 
Cromagnum said:
intolerant.........................
HOW CAN YOU BE TOLERANT? Maybe you didn't lose anyone but some of the rest of us did. Maybe it's easy for you to sit back and be like oh it's ok not all of them are like that. Fuck that, I am all for the occupation and annhilation of Afganistan for harboring Bin Laden. Fuck pick anyone of those terrorist harboring countries and put them on the list. We'll take them out on our way over to Afgan....

Typical that some bleeding heart would preach tolerance at a time like this. While I'm trying to be tolerant why don't I just right the terrorists a letter and apologize for being an american and beg their forgivness for being Christian.

I am talking about generalizing all Middle Easterners into one group with the fanatics that do the terrorist acts. I am not saying don't fight back, just don't blame nations of people, most of which do not share the opinions and thoughts of the terrorist groups.

I am not just sitting back while these people's lives have been sacrificed, damn you. I have been crying since yesterday. Who are you to judge me and my OPINION? FUCK THAT!!!!

You are an example of intolerance. If you have lost someone I am truly sorry, no one deserves to die, but we can't go blaming all "Arabs" for the act of a mad man.

You need to allow others the right to their opinion.
 
Slice of Peach2 said:



Why are some of you guys being so intolerant. Tolerance is what makes America free. Please try to remember that.

There are fanatics and then there are Middle Easterners. There is a huge difference.

Spare me..
 
I beg to differ: "tolerance" isn't what makes America great.
What makes America great is its foundation of freedom and the willingness of its people, though their origins vary, to band together as a united People rather than as tribes each looking out for their own special interests.
What makes America great is its Constitution and devotion to Liberty, both of which are being dismantled by Socialists and radical Environmentalists and Nanny-state Liberals.
Being African-American, Arab-American, or Chinese-American doesn't make America great; being AMERICAN makes America great.
 
BigDdaGanjalist: May I say, on behalf of every other red-blooded, rational American, "F*CK THAT!" Right now, we are at war. We do not know "who" with, yet. When we do, those responsible will be punished, harshly.

Israel is a powerful ally, maybe the strongest state, when you take size into account. Israel does not GET F*CKED WITH, and I'm glad they're on our side.

I, for one, hope that G.W. Bush re-pledges our UNRELENTING support for the state of Israel, and coordinates with them when the actual retaliation begins.

Withdraw our support? Yeah, why don't be blow the fanatics, too, as long as we're bowing down to demands of terrorists who are most likely backed and harbored by a government!!??

Slice o' Peach 2: I am going to have to second what Weapon X said...at this point in time, September 12th, 2001, the day after the worst attack on America IN HISTORY, which killed 5-6 X the people killed on December 7th, 1941--the "Day That Will Live In Infamy--the word "tolerance" IS NOT HIGH ON MY LIST!

What we need now, is for the United States to take action. Swift action, using every resource we have. The President is ready to send an emergency funding bill to Congress, that would basically open the doors to every dollar this country has, to rescue, protect, and fight back, against the faceless cowards.

Take you liberal bullsh*t and save it...We'll talk politics when we have crushed those responsible for yesterday's atrocities.
 
Re: A thought

Cromagnum said:
this is just a thought but has anyone pointed a finger at China yet. I mean obviously everyone is pointing at the middleeast but I for one think this was too well organized and needed to many resources to be pulled off without the help of a government. Granted I could be wrong but I wouldnt' put this past the chinese government. This stinks of the kind of cloak and dagger stuff that their history is full of.

anyway just a thought what do you think?

Not enough resources. Bin Laden has more resources than you could ever imagine.

And I am sick of hearing that this took some kind of master mind to pull off. Hell, I am a stupid Fuck from Arkansas and I could have pulled it off. 4 planes. 4 people each that is 16 people to get on 4 airplanes with knifes. By the way according to the FAA it is completely legal to carry a knife under 4" on a plane. Coordinate the flights so they carry a lot of fuel and leave approximately at the same time (Nothing a travel agent could not tell you.) Then scare the shit out of the people on the plane without letting them know they were going to die for sure. Then have someone take over the controls of the plane after you get close to your target. (and it does not take a geniuse to keep a plane straight while it flies into a target. Just someone who is stoned on their religous beliefs.)
 
Badkins and X.... I agree.. we have no room for "Tolerance"
That word should not be used at a time like this.

ONE WORD: "annihilation"

amen.
 
To add to what nautica said (ALTHOUGH, it's being speculated now that they HAD training!), at first, I heard that the highly sophisticated Boeing airplanes are EASIER to fly than smaller, "simpler" planes.
 
I don't wanna blow up the whole middle east, I jsut wanna get rid of Iraq, Iran, Sudan, and Afganistan. Aren't all of these bastards members of one of the three sects of Islam anyways? The sect that preaches "kil all americans, christians, and Jews" If so, I wanna kill all the ones that follow this and let the other 2 be. I think its the shiites or something like that
 
Peach,
You have to realize that most Americans understand your point and agree with you but you will always get a segment that react this way. Young immature kids, lower middle class rednecks, people who have not given this any thought other then the horror of what they see on TV.
Having said this I will have to say that I really don't care about Israel or Palestine. If this is about US support of Israel then the US should reconsider foreign policy because most of us do not want to die for Israel. Maybe you'll agree with me maybe not. There are about 5-10 million Jews in this country but there are 250 million people who are not. It is not our responsibility to protect Israel, they can do that themselves. They have enough money. I think the US should find out who's responsible, try to eradicate all terrorist cells to the best of their ability then LEAVE THAT REGION ALONE!!!!
To the person that commented on race and palestinians, I'm sorry to say racially they are not that different from you buddy, assuming you are white.
ff.
 
By the way, I totally disagree with Badkins, unless you can tell us exactly how we have benefited over the years by having this pro-Israeli policy.
 
Having said this I will have to say that I really don't care about Israel or Palestine. If this is about US support of Israel then the US should reconsider foreign policy because most of us do not want to die for Israel. Maybe you'll agree with me maybe not. There are about 5-10 million Jews in this country but there are 250 million people who are not. It is not our responsibility to protect Israel, they can do that themselves. They have enough money. I think the US should find out who's responsible, try to eradicate all terrorist cells to the best of their ability then LEAVE THAT REGION ALONE!!!!

My thoughts exactly. Why the FUCK is the US giving so much money to Israel? The US govt needs to stand up to the Jewish lobbyists and fucking leave Israel the hell alone. Terrorists don't think twice about killing themselves to acheive their cause. Innocent Americans die because of this.

LOOK WHAT HAPPENED!!! Thousands are dead!! We gotta care for our own asses. I couldn't care less about Israel.

read this page taken from CNN
April 23, 2001
Web posted at: 11:43 a.m. EDT (1543 GMT)

From David Ensor
CNN National Security Correspondent

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A new book quotes U.S. officials around during the 1967 Israeli attack on a U.S. surveillance ship as saying the attack was not an accident -- as Israel has always claimed -- but deliberate.

The attack, in which 34 American sailors died, was carried out to prevent the United States from eavesdropping on Israeli military activities, author James Bamford writes.

The USS Liberty was attacked during the Six Day War on June 8 by air and sea forces off the Sinai coast. Israel said the ship was mistaken for an Egyptian one and U.S. President Lyndon Johnson then accepted the explanation.

Israel later paid modest reparations to the families of the 34 Americans killed, and to the 171 others who were injured.

What the Israelis did not know, according to "Body of Secrets" -- published by Doubleday and scheduled for release Tuesday -- is that the U.S. National Security Agency had a surveillance plane flying above the Liberty.

The book quotes by name a Hebrew-English translator on that U.S. plane as saying the Israeli pilots talked about completing an attack. He said "they mentioned an American flag" -- suggesting the Israelis knew they were attacking a U.S. ship.

Bamford's other named sources include a former top N.S.A. official who conducted a review of the attack and an Air Force major general.

Israeli officials have not responded to CNN calls seeking comment.

Bamford writes that National Security Agency intercepts of the Israeli pilots and sailors remain secret to this day, although his sources say the communications would clearly show the Israelis attacked the U.S. ship deliberately.

As for motive, Bamford speculates in the book that the Israelis may not have wanted the United States to know that "at that same moment, a scant dozen or so miles away, Israeli soldiers were butchering civilians and bound prisoners by the hundreds, a fact that the entire Israeli army leadership knew about and condoned, according to the army's own historian."

Survivors of the attack on the USS Liberty have long argued that the Israelis had to know they were attacking an American ship, since the ship was circled repeatedly at a low altitude by Israeli aircraft before the attack and the ship was flying U.S. flags.

Bamford is an intelligence specialist and the author of a previous best-selling book about the NSA called "The Puzzle Palace."



Why does the US govt support Israel so much???
 
Again, I hope that President Bush reiterates the United States' UNRELENTING support for Israel.

Considering the facts mentioned in MattTheSkywalker's thread, the facts that we all know (but many refuse to acknowledge) about Palestine, and the sheer power of Israel as a nation-state...AND, add to that the number of pathetic little nations that we give money to, also, I think it's obvious that support of Israel is beneficial.

If you have studied ANY Jewish/Israeli history, you know that they are a force to be reckoned with.

*AND, you are all forgetting...IF these acts were committed BECAUSE we currently do support Israel, AND WE STOP NOW, or in the near future...WHAT IS THAT SAYING? Like I said, we might as well send our top supermodels to blow ol' bin Laden himself, hell maybe even Saddam, and Yassar, too. Let's show 'em a good time for f*cking with the red, white, and blue.

Do you see how absurd that is?

Without reiterating support, it will seem--to all the world, and especially our enemies--that we are bowing down to these lunatics after yesterday's atrocities.

America cannot have that...today, nor tomorrow, or ever!!

If you want to cut funding, cut the U.N. off, cut N.A.T.O. off (since most of their money is OUR money anyway), but don't leave Israel to join the bandwagon of jealous foreigners, most of which hate America anyway.
 
If you have studied ANY Jewish/Israeli history, you know that they are a force to be reckoned with.


Yes that's true. So why stick our necks in? Why not leave Israel to fight it's own war? Maybe if we had done that from the start, thousands in NY might still be alive today.
 
Austin316 said:
I don't wanna blow up the whole middle east, I jsut wanna get rid of Iraq, Iran, Sudan, and Afganistan. Aren't all of these bastards members of one of the three sects of Islam anyways? The sect that preaches "kil all americans, christians, and Jews" If so, I wanna kill all the ones that follow this and let the other 2 be. I think its the shiites or something like that

Dude, get your facts straight. Iran isn't even an arab country. They also practice a different type of Isalm. And for your information, it was the US that shot down an Iranian commercial jet killing 200+ innocent people. That is a terrorist act if I ever heard of one.
 
We'll said MkZk. Pro-Democracy allies?!!! Britain, France, Germany and perhaps India are who we need as pro-democracy allies. Not Israel.
 
*AND, you are all forgetting...IF these acts were committed BECAUSE we currently do support Israel, AND WE STOP NOW, or in the near future...WHAT IS THAT SAYING?

Well it's too late now. This crazy terrorist act could have been prevented though if my "theory" is correct.
 
BigDdaGanjalist: I have theory, too. If we had gone over and kept Adolf Hitler from being elected, we could have stopped WWII. What kind of logic is that?

Sure, if we didn't support Israel, what happened yesterday "might" not have happened, BUT, with that logic, every atrocity committed on earth "could be prevented.

We must look at the 'here and now,' and acknowledge that we must stay in this for the long haul.
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*AND, you are all forgetting...IF these acts were committed BECAUSE we currently do support Israel, AND WE STOP NOW, or in the near future...WHAT IS THAT SAYING?

Whether or not you are in favor of US support of Israel-
Are you going to let insane barbaric terrorists dictate U.S. foreign policy? If you stop support for the only democracy (Israel) in the Middle East then the terrorists have accomplished their goal.
Even with millitary retailation (?) this will send a message to terrorists everywhere that if they kill enough Americans we will change our policy for them.
 
Democracy

I understand everyone is feeling sore at the moment , but to use the sentiment at the moment to post anti-Arab crap is not good enough.
1. Arabs who have lived all their lives in Israel cannot vote. Some democracy.
2. Just like in the North (of Ireland) , the middle east will only be sorted out when both sides are forced to do so. The Americans should simply give the Israelis three years (say) to forge a meaningful lasting truce with their Arab neighbours, after that pull out. I bet there'd be some real "progress" then.
3. Of course America should never let anyone else dictate their foreign policy, but when people have nothing (Palestinians) have nothing , then they have nothing to lose. The World has turned a blind eye for too long. And worse , they have supported oppressive regimes - Indeonesia , Israel , Pinochet's Chile , blah.
 
BigDdaGanjalist: I have theory, too. If we had gone over and kept Adolf Hitler from being elected, we could have stopped WWII. What kind of logic is that?

We didn't know what Hitler was planning on doing.

In this situation the USA KNOWS what the funding is going to.

Doesn't justify what happened. . . just trying to shed light on possible motives. . . cause it's a question Im still wondering

Oh and BE VERY WARY of the media. . . some shit stinks

once I figure it out I'll post it.
 
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BigDdaGanjalist said:
if your going to post stuff like that, please post one for the other side's opinion too, its only fair.

In the 1940s Theodr Herzl published a book on Zionism calling all Jews to return to Jerusalem. At this time Jerusalem was a sand-pit that was sustained by local Arabs that called themselves Palestinians. A flood of young jews returned to Jerusalem and made the biblical location a middle eastern power.

You forget to mention that the Jews had a damn good reason for fleeing back to their homeland. THEY WERE SYSTEMATICALLY BEING SLAUGHTERED BY THE NAZIS! Where do you expect them to go?
 
Weapon X said:


I disagree. The Israelis invented:

The Uzi
The Galil
The Desert Eagle

http://shalomsgunpage.8m.com/israeliguns.htm

Not to mention that the U.S. purchased Israeli plans used to modify US F-16's; and don't for a minute forget that the Israeli's are premier, founding members of the "nuclear club".

MkZk, you are a stupid fuck. There is not ONE proven or documented fact in your entire tirade(s).

You are putting up conjecture as evidence e.g.:

"Bamford writes that National Security Agency intercepts of the Israeli pilots and sailors
remain secret to this day, although his sources say the communications would clearly
show the Israelis attacked the U.S. ship deliberately.

"Bamford speculates in the book that the Israelis may not have wanted
the United States to know that "at that same moment, a scant dozen or so miles
away, Israeli soldiers were butchering civilians and bound prisoners by the hundreds,
a fact that the entire Israeli army leadership knew about and condoned, according to
the army's own historian."

"This whole attack seems too sophisticated to be the work of Arabs."

Wow, I'm convinced now! Way to pass off opinion as fact. In future debate, try to avoid passing off opinion as fact. It's pretty transparent. Here's an example:

Fact (thank you WeaponX, Farah): Israel represents one tenth of 1% of the land mass of the Middle East
Opinion (thanks Hindushit): "there are more innocent that have died by the Isrealis hands then by anyone elses"

again...

Fact (Thanks Farah): "the Koran says nothing about Jerusalem. It mentions Mecca hundreds of times. It mentions Medina countless times. It never mentions Jerusalem. With good reason. There is no historical evidence to suggest Mohammed ever visited Jerusalem."
Opinion (Thanks BigGanjaSchmuck):"The US knowingly supplied weapons and funds for the Israeli government to massacre Muslims."

Get it? Facts can be proven, your opinions can not.

Try starting with a single proveable, documentable FACT in one of your posts and someone might listen to your propaganda-swallowing ass for a second. Just stop passing along propaganda which only you and your muslim bretheren could possibly believe.

Treating a 5,000-year-old birthright backed by overwhelming historical and archaeological evidence equally with illegitimate claims, wishes and wants gives diplomacy and peacekeeping a bad name.
How well put, Mr. Farah
 
replay

BigDdaGanjalist,
i dont know where u got your info from but u got it all wrong, most or all the info there is wrong strate from the first line- i'm no expert but since HERZEL died in 1904 he didn't published anything in the 1940's .
your info points that jews had returned to israel only after the 1940's and that's another mistake (my family have recorded history in israel in the last 200 years or more) and the mistakes go on and on.....


i'm an israeli and all i can say is that at this moment my heart and prayers is with those involved in this tragedy- i'm tired after a sleepless night watching the news and just came back from giving blood.
 
Naturally Low Octane said:
fuck both sides of this "opinion" fuck all of you arabians, palestians, whatever you call yourselves. I dont care if your "american-arab" or whatever that bullshit is. You should get the hell out of this country. Maybe we can fly some passenger jets full of your innocent children into your cheering masses. When your almost dead and bleeding then you can look down at your child that you were holding and see the lifeless body that was once warm and caring. Yes, thats right, and you'll know that there is no heaven with allah and seven virgins in your future, but only a hell where the sounds of your dying children torment you asking why you have done this to them. make no mistake, true-blooded americans will not stand for what has happened today, and my rage along with the rage of countless millions will be projected, and it will be an act far worse than what has been brought upon us.

Fuck you too, im a christian american arab, and unless you are native american go back where you came from too you ignorant piece of shit
 
Reply to original quote...

Thats kinda true. i disagree with the part about jerusalem not being holy
for muslims, though.

In 68AD the jews in Rome revolted under a guy named Bar-Kochva, who the Jews
of the time believed to be the messiah. They revolted because the romans
outlawed circumcision, which defied their neo-classical (greek) ideal of
human perfection. after they wiped out mot of the jewish resistance, they
renamed the area west of the jordan river Palestina, which had been
previously known as Judea. at this point islam did not even exist.

It is true that the Koran never mentions jerusalem and that the torah
mentions jerusalem thousands of times. but, jerusalem is the 3rd most holy
city for muslims besides mecca and medina. just because WE say its not holy
to them doesnt mean they have to agree. i have some muslim friends (non
"palestinian") and they consider it holy.

i have heard that mohammed asked that his followers face mecca and medina
(east) when praying because he wanted their backs turned to jerusalem since
the majority of jews at the time did not recongize him as a prophet. jews
around the world face the remains of the 2nd temple (where the western wall
is currently) when they pray. in the US this happens to be east.

furthermore, its true there has been a continuous jewish presence in that
area for 3000 years which predates islam by about 1700 years. However,
muslims trace their ancestry to Abraham as well. Abraham had a maid named
Hagar and they had a son named Ishmael who was also promised a great nation,
like Abraham and Sara's son Issac. Therefore, in their eyes, there has been
a continuous muslim presence in that area, althouh islam didnt exist until
several hundred years after christianity. interestingly enough, they also
consider moses one of their main prophets, although he ha dnothing to do
with ishmael.

the few times muslims have controlled jerusalem they have trashed the
religous sites of christianity and judaism. that is one of the reasons i
think israel shoudl retain jerusalem. the Temple Mount is actually built
directly on top of the ruins of the 2nd jewish temple which the romans
destroyed. that site is actually mount moriah, which king solomon had
leveled off and built the temple at the top. mount moriah is the place where
abraham almost sacrificed issac as a sign of his fealty to god, among other
things. Now the place that was the holiest site in all of judaism is
"occupied" by a muslim temple, which the jews will never tear down out of
respect for islam.

my analogy is that the jews are like native americans. french trappers came
along and lived here for a time, then US citizens. well imagine if the US
goverenement gave a small part of the US back to native americans. all fo
the sudden ancestors of french trappers come out of the woodwork claiming
that the land should be theres. certainly they lived there or a time, but
who had a greater claim? and i think its a good analogy because jes have
been repressed and dispossesed liek native americans. (although most native
americans identify with "palestinians.")


anyway, the jews arent going away unless the combined pressure fromthe rest
of the world forces them out. unfortunately, every age has a round of
antisemitism and an attempt at genocide. i expect that it will happen again
in my lifetime.
 
Let's not tell people to go back to where they came from. None of us are native amercians, not really. . If we all went back to where we came from the native americans (American Indians) could have all their land back. Hmmmm?
 
Okay, so Native Americans are from somewhere else as well (Asia), so therefore there would be nothing and no one left here if we all went back to where we came from. Let's just stop telling people that, okay?
 
SOP2: I agree, that's a stupid thing to say, but I think you realize that now.

babydoc: Nice post!

Low Octane: Keep your irrational rhetoric to yourself...
 
Badkins21 said:
SOP2: I agree, that's a stupid thing to say, but I think you realize that now.

Could you please clarify what you mean? What I said was stupid or telling people to go back where they came from is stupid? :xeye: If you are being rude, I will bring my kung fu out on you.
 
SOP2: That was directed at anyone that would say "Go back to where you came from." It was meant for WHAT was said, NOT who said it!!

Don't lump me together with all of the others I've heard lately...

I've never had a problem with you, and don't plan on ever having one...
 
Badkins21 said:
SOP2: That was directed at anyone that would say "Go back to where you came from." It was meant for WHAT was said, NOT who said it!!

Don't lump me together with all of the others I've heard lately...

I've never had a problem with you, and don't plan on ever having one...


Thank you. I truly appreciate that. I was just wondering if I was reading you right, that's all. Fellow Texan.
 
Rugger:

Although I like the overall tone and restraint of your post, I am unclear
on a very basic aspect. Are you saying that because the Muslims say that
Jerusalem is holy ground then it is so?

We have already seen what radical muslims are willing to do to accomplish
their goals (which are genocide and world dominance- Jihad). Lying and false propaganda are probably pretty much non-offenses to these animals.

We need to forget about "native" and not native people and "who was there first";
we could argue this back to the stone age. It comes down to who lives there now,
what kind of government is it and what their goals are (assuming we are all for democracy and freedom...caveat: no one is saying that socialism or communism is wrong if the people choose it but...)

This is VERY simplistic, but if they are peaceful, not trying to expand their borders
or erradicate another race then let them be. Unfortunately not one of these things can be said for ANY of the islamic countries save for Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

As GNR said..."Welcome to the Jungle...Time to Die!!!!"
 
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The real truth.

I aint anti American or Anti Arab, but....

Terrorism is a terrible thing. And it will never be the answer to any problem. However, what most Americans fail to realize is the motivation behind those horrible acts of terror, and why the Arab World, especially the Palestinians were seen cheering. And that the attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon could have been avoided.

In a nutshell: The Western World created the state of Israel after World War 2 - in the heart of the Arab World. The Palestinians were there first. It is their land. It's basically the same thing that happened to the Native Americans in the U.S.

The Israelis have taken over the territory and the Palestinians live in Reservations. And as if that wasn't bad enough, the Israelis keep building more and more settlements in the Palestinian reservations.

The Israelis are flat out wrong. There's no way around that.

To us Westerners they all may seem like a bunch of Middle Eastern nutjobs who just can't get along although they all look the same to us anyway. (I'm exaggerating, but I'm sure you know what I'm trying to say.)

But if you take the time to look into the history of the conflict, you'll realize WHY the Palestinians have such hatred for their Israeli oppressors and its strongest ally, the U.S.

To the Palestinians it's the same fight for survival that the Native Americans once fought against the U.S. - and lost. And Palestine is fighting the same fight for autonomy that the U.S. once fought against Britain, and won.

Are you trying to tell me no civilians died during those wars? How many innocent Native Americans were shot or hung by the U.S. government or lynch mobs back then?

To the Palestinians every Israeli and every U.S. Citizen is the enemy - an almost invincible enemy, and they really have no chance of winning, so any small victory (terrorism in our eyes) will be celebrated.

Just like the allies once celebrated the destruction of every city in Germany during World War 2, because Germany were the agressors. Israel and the U.S. are the aggressors/invaders/oppressors to the Palestinians.

And all of the Arab world sees it the same way. Are all these millions of people wrong? No - they're just on the other side of this conflict.

This act of terrorism could probably have been avoided if Israel would agree to stop building new settlements in the tiny Palestine reservations. There would finally be a chance for peace in the Middle East, and the Arab World would no longer have a reason to see Israel and the U.S. as aggressors, and have no reasons to retaliate (terrorize) the U.S.
 
Toenail Juice, you already posted this mistake-ridden post in the other thread.
Have you even tried to read the fist post in this thread? I promise there are no big words.

meno55.gif
 
Toenail...: Saying that the "Western World created Isreal" is just retarded, plain and simple.

I think that's been debated 17 times over the last few days, and all of the REFERENCED opinions have proven that it is the Palestinians who "claim" the land is their's, yet have no rational basis for saying so...
 
BigDdaGanjalist said:
I believe the worst consequence of all this will be an intense tide of racism towards those of middle-eastern origin.

No, the worst consequence of all this is the hundreds, maybe thousands, of children with no fathers or mothers, the widows, and the mothers weeping over their children. And not only having their loved ones gone, but having to watch these Arab fuckers dancing and celebrating their deaths. I guarantee you there will be rejoicing in America when every Arab nation that supports terrorists is bombed into oblivion, but it will not be because of the civilian deaths that will doubtlessly occur. It will be because our world will be free from the terror that these Arab bastards have inflicted.

Rhino
 
Babydoc-
It's interesting you are Jewish and you are quoting GNR. Axel has not made particularly flattering remarks towards Jews and other types of minorities in the past. You also called MKZK a stupid fuck! Why? Because he does not support the Jewish cause! I have news for you man, with the majority of the people in this country being protestant christian gentiles, MKZK echoes how many of us feel. Furthermore, Israel is not a member of the original nuclear club! Not that they are not capable, they are very bright people and I have much respect for those of them in academia. I believe in giving credit where it's due but please don't try to shove your ideals down my throat and don't go around calling people stupid fucks because they have a different point of view.
 
Any ideas which can be substantiated will be considered. Ideas which can not be substantiated will be considered unproven allegations.
Citations will add weight to any argument. From there, the sources of the substantion will be considered. "Popularity" of ideas does not matter. The emotion behind an argument does not matter.
Not everything can be proven, but some things come closer than others.

The people who are most virulently anti-Israel, in my oh-so humble opinion, do not seem to be substantiating any of their claims. They win points for emotion, but none for effective debate.

Vitriol does not an argument make.

I was an anti-Zionist Jew for a verrry long time, until I actually began to study the History of the Middle East. I have turned around, and I am ashamed of past opinions of Zionism.
 
WX: That quote is FUCKED UP!! (the one in your signature!!)...

Did he really say "newborn" humans?

I would think even pro-choice fanatics would find that sickening...Where'd you find that?
 
Ffactor said:
Babydoc-
It's interesting you are Jewish and you are quoting GNR. Axel has not made particularly flattering remarks towards Jews and other types of minorities in the past. You also called MKZK a stupid fuck! Why? Because he does not support the Jewish cause! I have news for you man, with the majority of the people in this country being protestant christian gentiles, MKZK echoes how many of us feel. Furthermore, Israel is not a member of the original nuclear club! Not that they are not capable, they are very bright people and I have much respect for those of them in academia. I believe in giving credit where it's due but please don't try to shove your ideals down my throat and don't go around calling people stupid fucks because they have a different point of view.
What exactly is your point?

I called him a stupid fuck because that's what he is, not because he dosen't share my point of view. You'll notice I did not call rugger a stupid fuck although I disagree with his point of view. People who present false propaganda as fact to intelligent people are stupid fucks to those of us who know better. That is a fact.

If you really want to get technical, the only real member of the "original" nuclear club is the USA, but you might want to check out the last names of some of the US scientists. Next came the USSR, then Israel. So yes, I know know my facts, but sometimes you have to simplify so that everyone can get the picture.

" I have news for you man, with the majority of the people in this country being protestant christian gentiles, MKZK echoes how many of us feel"
Well, if the truth of my words has stopped all of you in the majority from expressing your "opinions" then I have succeeded.

I have not made one iota of effort to shove "ideals" down anyone's throat, I have pointed out half-truths and complete non-truths and then inserted personal opinions e.g. "You are a stupid fuck". You have no idea what my ideals are. The closest I have come to stating my ideals is when I said...
"if they are peaceful, not trying to expand their borders or erradicate
another race then let them be"
This is neither pro-Israel or anyone else.

If you really want to know my ideals, here they are...
"Do whatever you want, but don't hurt anybody. Don't lie. Don't cheat. Say what you mean and do it."

As for Axel, he too is, (say it with me), a stupid fuck, but I had to give proper credit to the lyric, for I do not steal from others and try to pass off as my own what is not.
 
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