Raw benchpressers

[Tiervexx]

some of you might remember me making a post a while back about how i want to add as much strength as possible with little weight gain, and a few people suggested that i try westside.

the problem with westside is that it is geared towards bench pressing in a shirt. i tryed to look up the training routines for Glen Chabot and a couple other raw compededers, and i was able to find a few interviews with glen chabot but that was it.

does anyone know anything about how he trains?
karma to anyone who knows anything.

 

[Jagermeister]

Westside is not geared towards bench pressing in a shirt. They do absolutely no work in their shirts.

 

[Imnotdutch]

Westside is not geared towards bench pressing in a shirt. They do absolutely no work in their shirts.

I think that he means that because Westsiders compete in shirts their training is geared towards that competition lift. It would be silly to train for a raw competition lift if you compete in a shirt.

 

[Imnotdutch]

some of you might remember me making a post a while back about how i want to add as much strength as possible with little weight gain, and a few people suggested that i try westside.

the problem with westside is that it is geared towards bench pressing in a shirt. i tryed to look up the training routines for Glen Chabot and a couple other raw compededers, and i was able to find a few interviews with glen chabot but that was it.

does anyone know anything about how he trains?
karma to anyone who knows anything.

You could try using Westside but you owuld have to incprporate lifts that work the bottom more. Alternatively contact Powerlifterjay.......he gave me a copy of his training regime for raw lifters. HE could do 550 raw at 242 so that aint too shabby.

 

[solidj55]

Periodization using bench press works for raw benchers. Also, closegrip bench presses, closegrip incline presses, dumbell bench presses, one arm dumbell bench presses(supinated grip), lots of tricep work, plenty or back work(rows and closegrip pulldowns are best), weighted dips, front and rear delt raises. All of those are key to a good raw bench press. Also form!!!! Shoulder blades pinched together, a slight arch in the back, drive with your feet. Those are all the things that helped my raw bench when I was powerlifting.

 

[rjl296]

I bench raw (for now) I do most those aforementioned exercises also, I also do reg bench as a ME exercise. Lots of lat and tricep work. In 7 weeks on my first WSB 'cycle, my raw bench went from 265 to 285. Give it a try

 

[b fold the truth]

I train raw and semi-westside...my bench press and overhead press continues to rise.

B True

 

[Tiervexx]

Thank you to all who respond.

B true, I would be very interested in your bench routine because i know that your lifts have been rapidly going up.

anther question that i have for all of you is about shoulder training, i know that delt strength is very important for a big bench press but how do most of you fit shoulder training in with chest? the problem is, is that if i do shoulder exercises on the same day as bench i won't be able to use nearly as much weight as i would on a different day but at the same time it seems better with many body parts to do a weeks worth of work on them in one day.

my question is, should i try to do extra work on shoulders right after bench presses to make sure that they are basicly destroyed for a week or do you think it is better to wait 48 hours or so after bench day to do extra work on delts?

 

[jeremys]

i do 1-2 rotator cuff/shoulder excercises (2-3 sets each) on both ME and DE days

 

[edgecrusher]

The main thing the westside guys change when an individual wants to compete raw, is the %'s they use on their speed day. I believe for the bench they only use 50%, and there squat is somewhere around 60%. And they keep the percentages constant.

As far as shoulder work is concerned, they really don't do a whole lot, mainly for recovery purposes. Occasionally they will throw in some laterals and or front raises but that is the extent of it. On ocassion if an indivdual is injured they will do some shoulder work with the sled.

 

[Liftbig]

why do you want to compete raw? you can train westside and your raw max will go up.

 

[BigD50]

Westside is not geared towards bench pressing in a shirt. They do absolutely no work in their shirts.

I'm no expert on Westside methods but I know for the bench they do floor presses, board presses, JM presses, etc and no heavy flat benching. Then in a meet they use a shirt which hepls with the spring off the bottom. If a raw bencher did no heavy flat benching, worked the middle to top range of the stroke mostly and didn't use bench shirt when they got to the meet and went for a big attempt they might have trouble with no help off the bottom. Not that it can't be done, but I would guess a very modified Westside system along with other work would be best. Also it helps to be enhanced if your going to do all the stuff they do as most of their lifters are hittin the Creatine pretty good. I know someone who has done some pretty large repeated business transactions with Louie and the boys.

 

[powerlifterjay]

Well i used to use a bench routine that worked for me. After years of benching it is what i settled with. My best raw is 545, and my best shirt in a meet is 625lbs both @242lbs bw. With my routine i benched 600lbs in a meet. I switched to westside and put 25lbs more on my contest best. BUt... my raw bench and raw reps went down. Sorry folks but it is true. In my opinion you will lose raw strength. But on the flip side, you will stay healthier. My 545 was touch n go so i dont know what i can pause raw, dont wanna knwo really. But i took a few reps after speed day a time or two and my reps went down pretty good. My lockout improved some, and my speed went way up. Westsiders dont care about raw benching. Its all about the contest.

You can modify the system towards a raw max. Up your percentages and do low brds and floors. My partner has always done westside and believes his raw bench is going up. My other partner did westside and all his lifts went down. Another guy i know has never done westside he benches raw and shirts often and just hit 500@181 this weekend. And does 450 raw. To each his own. Try it for a few months and if yoru raw bench goes down modify it more. If still goes down keep tweaqing it till its right for you. If all else fails do a raw bench routine.

Glen Chabot flat benches once a month, and does close grips the rest fo the time. Also does alot of hammer strength inclines for mass.

 

[Tiervexx]

Glen Chabot flat benches once a month, and does close grips the rest fo the time. Also does alot of hammer strength inclines for mass.

thank you. would you mind posting the routine that took you to 545?

Also, if anyone knows anything more specific about what glen chabot does i would be very greatful if you posted it.

 

[TheFng]

I think you need to concentrate on all parts of the lift as apposed to just the middle and lock out like the Westside guys do. The shirt helps you the most at the bottom so I would do Westside but also incorporate lifts like illegal wide grip benches, dumbbell flys and pullovers to hit your pecs more. You could use them in place of movements like 5 board presses which probably are unnecessary for a raw bencher.
HTH.

 

[solidj55]

One arm dumbell bench presses work great for the bottom of the bench, ultra wide-grip bench presses are good as well. Speed work as well should help the bottom of the bench. Also, closegrip benches and closegrip inclines improved my strength dramatically.
floor presses, 1 board and 2 board presses are also good for raw benchers. Those IMO are the only ME exercises I would do if I were to do Westside and planned on benching raw. I would also do my ME work a little differently. Instead of working up to Max singles I would do it like this.

Dumbell Presses- 3 to 4 sets of 5-10 reps(close but not to failure)
Closegrip Bench and Closegrip Incline- work up to heavy triple
Ultra Widegrip Bench- work up to heavy set of 5
1 and 2 board- work up to heavy single
Floor Press- work up to heavy triple

And I wouldnt do my DE bench using all closegrip, I found that doing too much wider or narrower grip bench took away from the grip that I would use when maxing or competition. I would do all my DE bench using my regular grip, or the grip you plan to use in competition.

This is all just my opinion on how I would personally recommend a raw bench presser to use the Westside program. Personally though I dont like Westside for raw benching.

 

[BodybuildingUniverse]

Back to the Chabot question, he trains VERY much like a bodybuilder. Once he enters the WWE ring I think his competitive benching days will be over.

But I gotta tell you, i have seen a LOT of 700+ benches in person and Glen's arnold winning 722 or so was the BEST bench I have ever seen. Very close grip, little if any arch and almost no shirt help. His style and grip just dont benefit much from a shirt and he is a not a big shirt fan. Now, if he was getting 100 pounds + from it he may like them better, eh? he was telling me that he went through a bunch of custom inzer denims but just couldnt get in any kind of groove.

Under the right coaches wing I would have liked to have seen what Glen could really do. not to say that his 722 wasn't INSANE

 

[solidj55]

One arm dumbell bench presses work great for the bottom of the bench, ultra wide-grip bench presses are good as well. Speed work as well should help the bottom of the bench. Also, closegrip benches and closegrip inclines improved my strength dramatically.
floor presses, 1 board and 2 board presses are also good for raw benchers. Those IMO are the only ME exercises I would do if I were to do Westside and planned on benching raw. I would also do my ME work a little differently. Instead of working up to Max singles I would do it like this.

Dumbell Presses- 3 to 4 sets of 5-10 reps(close but not to failure)
Closegrip Bench and Closegrip Incline- work up to heavy triple
Ultra Widegrip Bench- work up to heavy set of 5
1 and 2 board- work up to heavy single
Floor Press- work up to heavy triple

And I wouldnt do my DE bench using all closegrip, I found that doing too much wider or narrower grip bench took away from the grip that I would use when maxing or competition. I would do all my DE bench using my regular grip, or the grip you plan to use in competition.

This is all just my opinion on how I would personally recommend a raw bench presser to use the Westside program. Personally though I dont like Westside for raw benching.

In addition to all of this I forgot to mention some supplement exercises to help. Rows of any type, you need to get your back strong to help support more weight when benching. I like to rotate them every week(dumbell rows, chest supported rows, bent over barbell rows, seated cable rows, and closegrip pulldowns) Thats how I do my back work.

Also, do some rotator cuff work and blast the triceps. Most people dont like to do them but I do(did that is) a lot of weighted dips, tricep pushdowns, skull crushers, and elbows out extensions.

Dont forget your form either. Shoulder blades pinched together, a slight arch in the back, drive with your feet.

Just a few tricks I learned, hope I helped some.

 

[solidj55]

Oh yea, one more thing I forgot. EAT. Eat some good protien each day, anywhere from 1gram of protein per kilogram of bodyweight or 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight. Eat plenty of carbs, especially 1-2 hours before training and 1-2 hours after training. Throw in some EFA's to keep the bodyfat in check as well as it helps promote more Test in the body naturally.

 

[Tiervexx]

Back to the Chabot question, he trains VERY much like a bodybuilder. Once he enters the WWE ring I think his competitive benching days will be over.

But I gotta tell you, i have seen a LOT of 700+ benches in person and Glen's arnold winning 722 or so was the BEST bench I have ever seen. Very close grip, little if any arch and almost no shirt help. His style and grip just dont benefit from a shirt and he is anot a big short fan. Now, if he was getting 100 pounds from it he may like them better, eh? he was telling me that he went through a bunch of custom inzer denims but just couldnt get in any kind of groove.

Under the right coaches wing I would have liked to have seen what Glen could really do.

thank you very much. i know that glen is the "cleanest" bench presser, this is why i think he is the strongest bench presser. I have also read that he hopes to get 800 with no arch and no shirt, if he does that then it will be the ultimate proof that he is the best i know that he does not like to arch his back but do you know weather or not he pinches his shoulder blades together or not?

and thanks solidj for the advice, the only thing i disagree with is the arch. I have a theory that not arching your back allows you to get a better work on the chest, shoulders, and arms which in the long run leads to a bigger bench even though it is a little harder without the arch. Glen chabot might have proved this with his clean 722.

its kind of like how your squat will improve faster if you go deeper even though it makes it harder.

 

[powerlifterjay]

Glen Chabot was the cleanest bencher. BUt i think he is done now. He tore his pec last week or so. From what i heard he is said his return is unlikely. Of course until you hear it from himself i wouldnt count anyone out.

 

[Tiervexx]

Glen Chabot was the cleanest bencher. BUt i think he is done now. He tore his pec last week or so. From what i heard he is said his return is unlikely. Of course until you hear it from himself i wouldnt count anyone out.

where did you hear this?!?! he said in powermag that he was gana take a few weeks off then start training again for next years arnold.

 

[BodybuildingUniverse]

I'll have to give big glen a call and get the scoop. hopefully he hasnt torn again...

 

[Tiervexx]

I'll have to give big glen a call and get the scoop. hopefully he hasnt torn again...

me too!

you really know him?!?!?!?!

i personaly am sickened by the whole idea of bench shirts, if you can't make the lift on your own power then you can't lift it!

and what is even worse is how many lifters arch so much they have to were freaking weight belts!!!!

this is why i really want to see glen destroy all these fake lifts

 

[solidj55]

I am the strongest clean bencher ever.

 

[Imnotdutch]

i personaly am sickened by the whole idea of bench shirts, if you can't make the lift on your own power then you can't lift it!

and what is even worse is how many lifters arch so much they have to were freaking weight belts!!!!

this is why i really want to see glen destroy all these fake lifts

Let me point something out to you........

The lifters that arch alot and use shirts are working within the rules.........therefore their lifts are not fake lifts. Everybody plays by the same rules so it is a level playing field.

If you want to rewrite the rule book, go and form your own federation and see how many people want to join.........

Oh and for the record I lift raw and my arch isn't big.

 

[Tiervexx]

The lifters that arch alot and use shirts are working within the rules.........therefore their lifts are not fake lifts. Everybody plays by the same rules so it is a level playing field.

i am well aware of the fact that they are lifting within the rules. but think about it. Why do you think they decided that bench press is one of the core lifts? because it tests upper body strength. if you don't arch your back and don't use a shirt then you are forced to rely on your OWN brute strength. i know that i might have gone a little to far when i said the the lifts were fake but i just don't understand how anyone could get any satisfaction out of a bench that you can only do with the help of equipment and your legs.

but once again thats just IMO i'm not trying to tell you people how to lift i am just trying to make it clear why i personally would much rather look up to glen, and why i will not even consider using a shirt

 

[jeremys]

many people have the same opinion as you, and i understand your point

but squatting is the same way. if you can take a wide stance in a squat or dead, it's not that different than an arch in benching, IMO

 

[Imnotdutch]

Ok now I see your point more clearly.

For what it is worth, I think that shirts that gave 100-200lb are a bit excessive However, I see no way of removing leg drive from the lift, safely. If you disagree so strongly, perhaps powerlifting isn't for you.

i am well aware of the fact that they are lifting within the rules. but think about it. Why do you think they decided that bench press is one of the core lifts? because it tests upper body strength. if you don't arch your back and don't use a shirt then you are forced to rely on your OWN brute strength. i know that i might have gone a little to far when i said the the lifts were fake but i just don't understand how anyone could get any satisfaction out of a bench that you can only do with the help of equipment and your legs.

but once again thats just IMO i'm not trying to tell you people how to lift i am just trying to make it clear why i personally would much rather look up to glen, and why i will not even consider using a shirt

 

[BigD50]

i am well aware of the fact that they are lifting within the rules. but think about it. Why do you think they decided that bench press is one of the core lifts? because it tests upper body strength. if you don't arch your back and don't use a shirt then you are forced to rely on your OWN brute strength. i know that i might have gone a little to far when i said the the lifts were fake but i just don't understand how anyone could get any satisfaction out of a bench that you can only do with the help of equipment and your legs.

but once again thats just IMO i'm not trying to tell you people how to lift i am just trying to make it clear why i personally would much rather look up to glen, and why i will not even consider using a shirt

I would guess by your comments that your bench sucks and you have nor ever will compete. These are lifts in competition not in the gym trying to build your chest. In competition you take every advantage you can to win. They do have raw meets if you would like to do that. If you think that guys that wear shirts have no brute strength, well you are mistaken, most would still win the raw meets.. Chabot wears a shirt doesn't he? Yes, and if he lifted raw and had to pause he would not even be in the 700 club. Also you realize that a 800 pound bench has already fallen and the low 800's will fall within the next 6 months so Chabot better find a better shirt.

 

[Parabellum]

I just went over to elitefts and did a quick search, basically they are saying not to change anything just focus on bar speed on DE day and do lat work.

I bench raw and have been doing westside for a few months and my becnh keeps going up, alog with everything else. I used Dave's basic training program: http://www.elitefts.com/documents/9week-training-program.htm and I am now using this program: http://www.elitefts.com/documents/bobyoungs-sampleworkout.htm

Take a look at the articles there, they have a ton of information. lIke how to bench 600 LBS, how to train the squat, etc...

 

[edgecrusher]

I would guess by your comments that your bench sucks and you have nor ever will compete. These are lifts in competition not in the gym trying to build your chest. In competition you take every advantage you can to win. They do have raw meets if you would like to do that. If you think that guys that wear shirts have no brute strength, well you are mistaken, most would still win the raw meets.. Chabot wears a shirt doesn't he? Yes, and if he lifted raw and had to pause he would not even be in the 700 club. Also you realize that a 800 pound bench has already fallen and the low 800's will fall within the next 6 months so Chabot better find a better shirt.

I know plenty of people who support his views, and where national level competitors. I understand people wanting every advantage in competition, that is why much of this board is using gear and other chemical enhancements (something I am not against.) However, some of the methods used by todays lifters border on the absured.

 

[circusgirl]

re arching... firstly let me say my max bench is still a piddling 100lbs or so.

BUT I find that if I arch a bit, I use my lats more, and I'm not as dependent on the pecs to lift the bar off. This is exactly what spatts said about getting the bar off the bottom, and she was right.

I'm also more stable. And my shoulders don't feel quite so under stress. So, I practice all th time with the arch, to get the lats etc in there.

I plan on doing a contest in February, raw, as I don't feel like buying all that gear, considering I'm gong to enter to enjoy the experience, who cares if I would lift 10kg more with the shirt on....

now I need to convince my coach to let me enter. Step 1 of training program for meet - get my husband GTA3 for the PC, so he won't notice I'm spending so much time working out

 

[BodybuildingUniverse]

max width grip, big arches and super wide stances in sq and dl are all about shortening the range of motion. push the big weight a shorter distance. Back to Chabot, he has one of the longest pushest I have seen with his fairly narrow grip and small arch. Do I sound impressed?

 

[powerlifterjay]

I agree bench shirts are out of hand. I mean i will always use one, but i know some people that are weak as shit and get big boosts from there shirts. I personally wouldnt give a shit if they banned all of them!! Because i dont believe that all big benchers with shirts would win raw meets. Hell i see guys struggle in warmups with 405 then hit 525 plus in a shirt.

And no i am not sayin that cause my bench sucks. I have done in a APA meet 625lb bench @242lbs, and 600lbs @ 233 in a full power meet. But i also got a 545lb raw bench.

BUt like it or not shirts are here to stay. But back a couple years ago no one was hitting numbers like now. Its not impressive at all to hit over 600 anymore. Fuck everyne is hitting 700 plus. I knwo for a fact if i hadnt (and am currently hurt) injured myself three times in my shoulder i would be right at 700 too.

I can gaurantee that in the next 5 years we will have several lifters going way over 800lbs. Like 10 or more!!

If your into raw benching only then dont compete with shirt benchers cause you stand no chance. Shirts are here to stay...forever, so get used to it and get one and master it!!!

 

[spatts]

PLJay, what's the prognosis on your shoulder?

The shirt adds 50-70 pounds to my bench. Mostly because it takes my weakness away (shoulders). I notice as my shoudlers get stronger, the gap between raw and shirted closes.

 

[BodybuildingUniverse]

Jay, I agree with all you said and the backstage warmup bombs are truly freaky. I saw a guy competing in the arnold MISS with 100 less than he did onstage. no shirt backstage. Some folks get WAY more than others out of the shirts

Your lifts — both unequipped and with a shirt —_speak for themselves man...

 

[powerlifterjay]

Spatts,

I truly do not know at this point. My deep tissue therapist said my bicep tendon fell out of its grrove. It was put back in and i took a week off then competed, did 625 no pain. Then in training it was more painful. So i layed off. Did high board presses etc, then 3 weeks out from the Daytona meet i shirted up and barely locked out 500lbs with out a huge deal of pain. I slung my shirt across the gym and said "Thats it, i am done". That was 7 weeks ago and i havent benched since. Here is whats weird, i cannot even find where it hurts unless i am benching. At home zero pain. Other movements except incline barbell no pain. And it only hurts at the lockout.

I havent actually talked about my plans everywhere but i am dietng down for two bodybuilding shows as we speak. I have changed my training 100% and after the shows if i am not rehabed by reps, then i will get a MRI and get it fixed.

But on a side note...everything else is being trained heavy and raw!!

Thanks for the compliment heavywear!!

 

[jeremys]

good luck jay

 

[spatts]

Wow, Jay...I'm sorry you're having a rough go of it. I never would've thought you for a BB competitor, that's pretty cool that you're cross competing. I've always been the first to say that if PLers went on cutting diets....woe to the BB world. When are your BB shows?

What's your training like now? Still lifting heavy and just altering diet?

 

[Parabellum]

I found this on the [email protected] :

As someone who's been experimenting with Westside for almost a year,
I just want to give my own .02.

First off, Bill Denlinger's post was excellent, as was Eddie
White's. I'd like to add this, if I may: if you choose to stick to
the standard 4x/week training by the Westside book, make sure your
first assistance exercise is a compound movement closely mimicking
the M/E exercise or major lift. For the last several weeks, we've
been doing too much isolationist garbage for assistance work. Mike
is an amateur, I'm a novice, so we're not at a point where we can
forego the major lifts and their derivatives. I learned that the
hard way over the last several months.
For instance, I'm too new (455lb squat at last comp) to NOT squat and
hope my squat will improve. While GMs are a huge help, I find I have
to squat occasionally or lose my groove - box squats just aren't a
good enough replacement for me. Also, I'm using SLDL a lot more for
assistance, and my real DL is finally back where it was in the
summer.
Also true for bench work. While floor presses and such are nice
movements for triceps, I'm not a good enough bench presser (read:
poor form, wasted energy) to avoid doing bench pressing. I"ll now do
inclines or close-grip benches for reps as my 1st assistance exercise. One more thing: I have to schedule more high-rep(5-6) days ever
several weeks for the major movements. If you've followed Westside's
workouts over the last year, you'll notice their 'conjugated' style
is becoming more linear (circamaximal phases, high-rep weeks) and
scheduled higher-rep weeks for novice non-enhanced lifters is a boon.

Open to comments.
Chris Cooper
Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario