r-ALA: What the....?

[rangerx83]

Got my 3 bottles of r-ALA from AF. As soon as I got them I took 600 mg with a bowl of Special K Berries cereal (it's delicious btw) . Much to my surprise, I experienced no hypoglycemic symptoms, no heartburn and no stinky piss.

I then took 1500mg that night, and again did not get any of those symptoms. What the heck is going on? If I take 1200mg of racemic ALA during lunch, I would barely be able to keep my eyes open, even on ECA. Nothing seems to happen when I take the r-ala. Am I the only one? for a bit of time I thought I had gotten a bad batch of r-ALA, so I decided to purchase some ketostix, and yes I am in trace ketosis, so it seems to be working, but I'm not 100% sure, as I could have been in ketosis from the previous days when I was doing regular ALA.


Today I took 1200mg just before a workout with a carbo-force. Again no heartburn, dizzyness or lethargy *at all*...


Am I the only one that doesn't experience any of the symptoms that characterize regular ALA? Could those symptoms be from the s-ALA?



confused,

Rangerx83

 

[drveejay11]

hmmm......bumpity bump

 

[The Almighty]

Idunno man. I just got my bottle today, going to start tommorow. Hopefully this shit does some good.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

those doses are rather high... and unecessary...

yes... lethargy that you speak of is due to increased insulin.. a side effect of s-ala.

part of the reason for no hypoglycemia is likely due to the fact that you are used to racemic.. which has been unnaturally spiking your insulin levels (as well as keeping elevated plasma insulin).... you are no longer getting that "spike".. (btw- thats best guess at this point)

drop your dosage.. you dont need to use that much..

 

[The Almighty]

Macro, I know I am not the most knowledgable on the subject, but I thought the spike in your insulin levels was the whole point of taking ala?

 

[Ulter]

The A, No you don't want to spike your insuling levels. That will stop your body from burning fat.

rangerx83, You should stop looking for all the bad sides you get from racemic ALA because you won't get them. They don't occur with Natural ALA. NO you won't get heartburn, NO you won't have stinky pee, and the feeling of HypoG depends on your insulin sensitivity so you may not feel that either. Just keep taking it, NOT THAT MUCH, and see how much your body composition changes in a few weeks. Your vascularity in particular.
Don't blow through 3 bottles in a couple weeks bro. You simply don't need that much. Use 400mg max with that carb up drink.

 

[rangerx83]

those doses are rather high... and unecessary...

yes... lethargy that you speak of is due to increased insulin.. a side effect of s-ala.

part of the reason for no hypoglycemia is likely due to the fact that you are used to racemic.. which has been unnaturally spiking your insulin levels (as well as keeping elevated plasma insulin).... you are no longer getting that "spike".. (btw- thats best guess at this point)

drop your dosage.. you dont need to use that much..

Sure, I have no intention of going thru one bottle in 10 days or less. I tried those amounts as a test to see what type of symptoms I would get. If it works without those nasty side effects, that's great! I won't get sleepy at work, my co-workers will be happy that the bathroom doesn't stink anymore, and I'll be heartburn free forever.

I was using those symptoms as indicators that the ALA is working.

I'm not sure about the main point you made, macro. I thought that the r-ALA in the racemic mixture 'overpowered' the negative effects of the s-ALA. Therefore there shouldn't be any insulin spike from taking the racemic mixture, correct? If there's still an insulin spike while using the racemic, then shouldn't I have gotten fat?

Also, if some people (ulter comes to mind) are experiencing hypoglycemia from just 300mg of r-ALA, how come I didn't experience it *at all* on 1200mg of r-ALA?

Shouldn't r-ALA be a powerful glucose disposal agent that does its job independently of the amount of insulin in one's system?

And what about the folks who took just 100-200mg or R-ala and experience the lethargy? Is that a placebo effect, because they are expecting it from reading about it here?

Perhaps I have been mistaking the lethargy, light-headedness and generally 'stoned' feeling as hypoglycemic symptoms while they are not? I have never done insulin so I assumed that those symptoms were indicative of hypoglycemia.) If they are not, could you please tell me what they are?

My assumptions were partly made from reading posts from people who *have* done insulin and said that the lethargy, and dizzyness etc are symptoms of hypoglycemia. Since I have no first hand experience with insulin, I can only go by what they said (NYMUSCLE, where are you?)

And finallly what about the other lack of symptoms? what happened to the sulfuric stench when urinating? And the lack of heartburn? Why are other people still getting heartburn from r-ala? What on earth is going on?




Slightly less confused,

Rangerx83

 

[chrisoh]

I was about to order some r-ala but I keep hearing mediocre threads on them... ill just get some good old nature's purest and wait till more positive threads pop up, like yohimburn. On racemic ALA, im in moderate ketosis almost always while on a low to moderate carb diet so I have nothing to complain about with the "good old stuff".

 

[THE BOUNCER]

Sure, I have no intention of going thru one bottle in 10 days or less. I tried those amounts as a test to see what type of symptoms I would get. If it works without those nasty side effects, that's great! I won't get sleepy at work, my co-workers will be happy that the bathroom doesn't stink anymore, and I'll be heartburn free forever.

I was using those symptoms as indicators that the ALA is working.

I'm not sure about the main point you made, macro. I thought that the r-ALA in the racemic mixture 'overpowered' the negative effects of the s-ALA. Therefore there shouldn't be any insulin spike from taking the racemic mixture, correct? If there's still an insulin spike while using the racemic, then shouldn't I have gotten fat?

Also, if some people (ulter comes to mind) are experiencing hypoglycemia from just 300mg of r-ALA, how come I didn't experience it *at all* on 1200mg of r-ALA?

Shouldn't r-ALA be a powerful glucose disposal agent that does its job independently of the amount of insulin in one's system?

And what about the folks who took just 100-200mg or R-ala and experience the lethargy? Is that a placebo effect, because they are expecting it from reading about it here?

Perhaps I have been mistaking the lethargy, light-headedness and generally 'stoned' feeling as hypoglycemic symptoms while they are not? I have never done insulin so I assumed that those symptoms were indicative of hypoglycemia.) If they are not, could you please tell me what they are?

My assumptions were partly made from reading posts from people who *have* done insulin and said that the lethargy, and dizzyness etc are symptoms of hypoglycemia. Since I have no first hand experience with insulin, I can only go by what they said (NYMUSCLE, where are you?)

And finallly what about the other lack of symptoms? what happened to the sulfuric stench when urinating? And the lack of heartburn? Why are other people still getting heartburn from r-ala? What on earth is going on?




Slightly less confused,

Rangerx83

You make some very good points. Regular ala has worked just great for me. Im sure r-ala is a good product but I don't believe it is as good as they say.

 

[rangerx83]

The A, No you don't want to spike your insuling levels. That will stop your body from burning fat.

If the s-ALA component of the racemic was causing an insulin spike, even in the presence of r-ALA, then not only should I have not lost all the fat I did on the racemic, but I should have gotten a little fat, depending on my caloric intake right?

rangerx83, You should stop looking for all the bad sides you get from racemic ALA because you won't get them. They don't occur with Natural ALA. NO you won't get heartburn, NO you won't have stinky pee, and the feeling of HypoG depends on your insulin sensitivity so you may not feel that either.


Okay, since I'm not the first person to try r-ala, why didn't other people mention the wonderful lack of heartburn, and stinky pee? I do recall a few people mentioning that they did get heartburn even from r-ala, thus my suprise when I didn't.

Also, is my lack of feeling HypoG even on 1200mg of r-ala mean that I have good insulin sensitivity or bad?

Just keep taking it, NOT THAT MUCH, and see how much your body composition changes in a few weeks. Your vascularity in particular.
Don't blow through 3 bottles in a couple weeks bro. You simply don't need that much. Use 400mg max with that carb up drink.

As I said in my first post I'm currently in ketosis. I will keep you updated as to whether my ketogenic state changes, since I'm not sure if it's a remnant of my prior use of s/r ALA.


Don't get me wrong Ulter, I *do* want this stuff to work, I was just surprised by my abnormal response to r-ALA based on earlier posts from people who have tried it before me.

Regards,

Rangerx83

 

[THE BOUNCER]

Here is an exact post from Ulter

"I got the feeling of being hypoglycemic on 300mg. I would not recommend going over 600mg of r-ALA.


but funny in this post they are trying to tell you that.....
"yes... lethargy that you speak of is due to increased insulin.. a side effect of s-ala."


It seems to me that the wool has been pulled over your eye's!!!




You take the Blue pill, the story ends and wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe!

You take the Red Pill, and stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabit hole goes! The Matrix

nice iceman, would anyone care to respond? and i don't want to hear about how many studies you have on r-ala either!

 

[Addicted]

Well...

I get mild heartburn off and on with the r-ala...I am just starting my second bottle. I do feel fuller and harder, but I agree, even at 300mg (which supposedly equates to 900mg of the s-ala, I get no hypoglycemic response, even with my post workout high carb drink. If I take 400mg of Twinlab ala with my post w/o drink (80gr carbs) I feel hypoglycemic within 20-25 minutes..now I am confused, do I want to feel that way or not?? What's the quality control onthis r-ala, how come I get heartburn sometimes and nothing others...

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Macro, I know I am not the most knowledgable on the subject, but I thought the spike in your insulin levels was the whole point of taking ala?

no

increase in insulin sensitivity.. thus with lower insulin you get same (actually greater) glycogen uptake..

by reducing insulin you increase the lipolysis as well as the lipolytic window..

 

[Addicted]

Oh, and the reason...

I didn't bring this up earlier is because I heard rumors that r-ala was being manufactured by the Russian mob A tleast I'm not the only one a bit confused by all of this.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

I'm not sure about the main point you made, macro. I thought that the r-ALA in the racemic mixture 'overpowered' the negative effects of the s-ALA. Therefore there shouldn't be any insulin spike from taking the racemic mixture, correct?it is actually not so much a spike as a increase in plasma insulin If there's still an insulin spike while using the racemic, then shouldn't I have gotten fat?this is why many people seem to be complaining of abdominal distension as well as increased abdominal fat while decreased peripheral fat as well as increased glycogen storage with racemic.. though at the higher dosages there may be a decrease in ACTUAL INSULIN (a the ala supplants insulin .. perhaps almost completely at the higher dosages).. this may perhaps results in even a almost complete cessation of insulin production... this "replacement effect" is why you may be able to maintain ketosis with (more) carbs... however the INSULIN LIKE EFFECTS OF S-ALA have shown (at least in some studies) preference for storage in adipose tissue.. so even though in ketosis.. there may be fat storage in the abdomen.. but even this is not entirely clear (though this does seem to be the case from anecdotal reports)

Also, if some people (ulter comes to mind) are experiencing hypoglycemia from just 300mg of r-ALA, how come I didn't experience it *at all* on 1200mg of r-ALA? your actual production of insulin may be blunted due to use of the racemic mix.. but it could be for other reasons??

Shouldn't r-ALA be a powerful glucose disposal agent that does its job independently of the amount of insulin in one's system?yes, but if insulin production levels are low.. you wont get the hypoglycemic effect

And what about the folks who took just 100-200mg or R-ala and experience the lethargy? Is that a placebo effect, because they are expecting it from reading about it here?
?????????



Slightly less confused,

Rangerx83

 

[rangerx83]

Originally posted by macrophage69alpha His post in red
Also, if some people (ulter comes to mind) are experiencing hypoglycemia from just 300mg of r-ALA, how come I didn't experience it *at all* on 1200mg of r-ALA?
your actual production of insulin may be blunted due to use of the racemic mix.. but it could be for other reasons??
Okay, so then... why do I get lethargic on huge amounts of racemic ALA, if what you say is true? If my production of insulin was 'blunted' by my use of racemic ALA from 3 days ago, then I have two questions:
First how long will my insulin be blunted by my prior use of the racemic?

Second, a constantly blunted insulin level due to constantly high usage of the racemic mixture should cause me not to feel any lethargy at all as long as I do those huge, insulin blunting amounts of racemic ALA, correct?

Shouldn't r-ALA be a powerful glucose disposal agent that does its job independently of the amount of insulin in one's system?
yes, but if insulin production levels are low.. you wont get the hypoglycemic effect

Here's the part that confuses me. I thought that hypoglycemia was defined as a rapid decline of blood glucose, such that your brain is starved of of sugar, with the liver not being able to adapt quickly enough to produce ketones, which is an alternate energy source for the brain.

The result: Coma and maybe even death. This should be the result of *any* glucose disposal agent that suddenly removes glucose from your blood stream and deposits primarily in your muscle and perhaps fat tissues, while not giving the brain a chance to adapt to the sudden change.

Are you saying that r-ALA is a powerful glucose disposal agent which somehow spares the brain from the sudden decline in blood sugar? And that it's only insulin that starves the brain? What about metformin ? Glucophage?
Perhaps you're suggesting that r-ALA disposes of the glucose gently, such that the brain is not starved at all?

And what about the folks who took just 100-200mg or R-ala and experience the lethargy? Is that a placebo effect, because they are expecting it from reading about it here?
?????????
I'm referring to the this thread:
http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=153266&highlight=rala

by Diesel3d There he states that he took only one 100mg cap of r-ala and felt tired. I'm wondering if he's misattributing his tiredness to r-ala, just because he's seen so many posts on how ala is like insulin, or whether for some people 100mg of r-ala is sufficient to cause this lethargy. But thiis last point goes against what your saying Macro, which is that the lethargy is primarily induced by the increase in plasma insulin level iwhich in turn is induced by the s-ala. In this poor chap's case, where's the s-ala coming from? I'm confused.
.

Regards,
Rangerx83

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Originally posted by macrophage69alpha His post in red
Also, if some people (ulter comes to mind) are experiencing hypoglycemia from just 300mg of r-ALA, how come I didn't experience it *at all* on 1200mg of r-ALA?
your actual production of insulin may be blunted due to use of the racemic mix.. but it could be for other reasons??
Okay, so then... why do I get lethargic on huge amounts of racemic ALA, if what you say is true? If my production of insulin was 'blunted' by my use of racemic ALA from 3 days ago, then I have two questions:
First how long will my insulin be blunted by my prior use of the racemic? really no idea... and it may be due to other factors.. this is a theory as to why.. cant really say for sure that is what is going on.. partly because the mechanism and effect of high doses of racemic ( or any ALA) are not all the well studied

Second, a constantly blunted insulin level due to constantly high usage of the racemic mixture should cause me not to feel any lethargy at all as long as I do those huge, insulin blunting amounts of racemic ALA, correct?not really.. it is not quite clear what causes the "tired" feeling... it could be the ALA ...but whether this is a direct or inderect effect is UNKNOWN... that is really the issue here.. much of this is conjecture.. what is not conjecture are that the effects of r-ala (from health and insulin sensitivity aspect are superior).. it is not clear how r-ala will affect ketosis.. or if ketosis is even necessary with insulin minimization and sensitization through the use of r-ala.. once again.. not clear.. it will take time and comparison on many levels (ie low carb v. moderate carb ketotic) before any real comparison.. (at least with respect to ketosis can be made).. as well as differing effects on fat loss and glycogen storage.. (we are at the beginning...)

Shouldn't r-ALA be a powerful glucose disposal agent that does its job independently of the amount of insulin in one's system?
yes, but if insulin production levels are low.. you wont get the hypoglycemic effect

Here's the part that confuses me. I thought that hypoglycemia was defined as a rapid decline of blood glucose, such that your brain is starved of of sugar, with the liver not being able to adapt quickly enough to produce ketones, which is an alternate energy source for the brain.

The result: Coma and maybe even death. This should be the result of *any* glucose disposal agent that suddenly removes glucose from your blood stream and deposits primarily in your muscle and perhaps fat tissues, while not giving the brain a chance to adapt to the sudden change.

Are you saying that r-ALA is a powerful glucose disposal agent which somehow spares the brain from the sudden decline in blood sugar? And that it's only insulin that starves the brain? What about metformin ? Glucophage?
Perhaps you're suggesting that r-ALA disposes of the glucose gently, such that the brain is not starved at all?here it is easier.. if you are already somewhat insulin sensitive (ie younger, normal estrogen levels, etc) the hypoglycemic effect MAY not be as great (plus the other factors mentioned.. ie perhaps already low insulin).. in ulters case.. older, taking androgens, taking aromatase inhibitors.. the hypogycemic effects (since his insulin levels will generally be higher for the above reasons) is more prominent .. not suggesting any of the above

And what about the folks who took just 100-200mg or R-ala and experience the lethargy? Is that a placebo effect, because they are expecting it from reading about it here?
?????????
I'm referring to the this thread:
http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=153266&highlight=rala

by Diesel3d There he states that he took only one 100mg cap of r-ala and felt tired. I'm wondering if he's misattributing his tiredness to r-ala, just because he's seen so many posts on how ala is like insulin, or whether for some people 100mg of r-ala is sufficient to cause this lethargy. But thiis last point goes against what your saying Macro, which is that the lethargy is primarily induced by the increase in plasma insulin level iwhich in turn is induced by the s-ala. In this poor chap's case, where's the s-ala coming from? I'm confused.the ???? were to indicate... dont know.. but it could be for a # of reasons both directly and indirectly related to r-ala and insulin (as well as glucagon).. not to mention other hormones.. as well as other supplements that may enhance insulin secretion/sensitivity/ etc.. its a complex system
.

 

[ironmaster]

Now I'm confused. I understand the anti-oxidant value of the product, but I thought it was touted as an insulin-like supplement at higher doses. This would appeal to me, cause I inject insulin as a regular part of my program.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Now I'm confused. I understand the anti-oxidant value of the product, but I thought it was touted as an insulin-like supplement at higher doses. This would appeal to me, cause I inject insulin as a regular part of my program.

yes it is insulin like.. but it is more than that as well.. will go into many more of the facets of both racemic and r-ala as well as combination supplements and effects of other drugs/diets/etc on these systems.. but there is a LOT to it.. still working on some of the complexities (not to mention waiting for more responses to both r-ala and racemic under different conditions.. conditions that are often left out in posts... but will go into this further when closer to "completion")

there is a learning curve.. testing clinical results in a "real world" environment with dozens of variables that need to be considered.. not exactly easy nore EXACT...but moving toward resolution of at least some of the issues, effects, etc..

 

[SOLID]

rangerx- i too experimented with high doses of the R-ALA. I take 600mg with my 100g carb postworkout shake and 600mg with my next carb meal - that is about 70g carbs. All my other meals are Protein/Fat and I take 300mg with those. I haven't noticed anything, no stinky pee, no lethargy, no heart burn, no feeling of hypoglycemia, and don't experience any pumps as I've heard about. I don't know if it's a good thing, but I know that I can seem to even get into trace Ketosis with my regimen and I have been testing every couple days. I have gone through 2 bottle's and going through my 3rd. I have one left and I think I'm going to buy the racemix next time just to see what if any diferences I acheive from them. I haven't tried S-ALA yet, so I don't have anything to compare the R-ALA to. I'm not down grading the R-ALA by anymeans- like I said I just have had any experiences with the racemix to compare it to.

 

[gUiLe]

I haven't yet tried the AF R-ala. I do know one thing though,
keto-stix don't lie! If I am not in ketosis using R-ala, yet get in
(easily I might add) with the racemix, guess which one I'll be
using!
g

Rangerx- What's up bro? Keep me posted. Just got back from
Florida

 

[Ulter]

There is a very good reason why my experiencing hypoG on 300mg may be different than yours. I am 46 years old and it's much easier for me to induce hypoG with r-ALA than it is for someone half my age. But I don't know why you would want to. It looks like some of the people are trying to use the unpleasant sides as a indicator that it's working. I would use a mirror to see if it was working if I were you. I don't understand why anyone would think it's going to change you overnight or even in a week. There are people like me who will feel the sides right away and others who won't feel them at all. But that doesn't mean it's not doing the same thing to you as it does to me.
Every single email we've received from people in the last 2 weeks has been nothing short of phenomenal in terms of the successful use of r-ALA but some had sides. One guy wrote me that he got headaches and lethargy with only 200mg. Those are signs of low blood sugar folks and that's what it does.
As far as the keto dieters go, I know you've been waiting for some kind of response as to why you're getting better readings on your stix with ALA but we don't have one yet.
In all honesty I don't know why anyone would bother with all the hassle of keto when you've got r-ALA. You will get rid of just as much fat with r-ALA and a normal diet as you will with keto and you will get the advantage of the most powerful anti-oxidant in the world, with no extra charge.

Iceman is pretty funny running around saying someone is pulling the wool over someone’s eyes. He’s praying that all the research in the last 30 years is wrong about r-ALA being so much more potent because he is sitting on a pile of ALA. Well that's not going to happen.
I will say this again. We could have bought huge supplies of ALA and sold it for half of what it's being sold for by these people posting and MADE MORE MONEY doing it. But when we saw the difference in the potency and efficiency of r-ALA, how all the research done on humans was only done with r-ALA, what the finding of the studies pitting one against the other were, we went ahead and spent the extra money and went through all the hassle of getting the right ALA, r.

 

[THE BOUNCER]

Iceman is pretty funny running around saying someone is pulling the wool over someone’s eyes. He’s praying that all the research in the last 30 years is wrong about r-ALA being so much more potent because he is sitting on a pile of ALA. Well that's not going to happen.
I will say this again. We could have bought huge supplies of ALA and sold it for half of what it's being sold for by these people posting and MADE MORE MONEY doing it. But when we saw the difference in the potency and efficiency of r-ALA, how all the research done on humans was only done with r-ALA, what the finding of the studies pitting one against the other were, we went ahead and spent the extra money and went through all the hassle of getting the right ALA, r.

like I said before here bro. iceman has a product that works, good old s-ala. all I keep hearing is how you have studies that prove r-ala works. there is a major difference in how things look on paper and how they work in the human body! the results are right here on this board bro! people posting things like" i don't get the pump i did from regular s-ala". what do you think is going on here bro? maybe your product isn't as good as you say! maybe regular old ala at 2000mgs to 3000mgs is alot better than you say! i for one will stick with the regular ala because I have gotten great results from it. on the other hand, i have not heard how great the results of r-ala are!

 

[Ulter]

Bouncer, It's great that you are trying to help your friend sell his ALA on the board but there should be a limit to what you are willing to post.
"The results are right here on this board" is what you said. Well if they are then r-ALA is the right ALA to be using.

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kronk
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Registered: Oct 2001
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(post #17)

OK. I need to chime in here with something. Yes, I am a MOD and so is my wife Kronkette. We do not have any role if the AF store or have no agreements with marcro or ulter.

I use r-ala and have only used it now for two days. (I also use other products)

Here is my experience. First let me say that I have been taking 3-4 grams of ALA a day for several months. Mostly I noticed that I was flat and tired, but did see some fat loss.

Yesterday, I took 300mg of r-ala post workout with 60grams of Whey and 100grams of dextrose. Within 1 hour after drinking and taking the r-ala, I was pumped bigtime. (I am not "on" right now either) I noticed a huge difference the rest of the day feeling much more pumped than usual, my wife also experienced this feeling.

Again today, (working bi's), same situation, big pumps, and actually noticed a slight difference in my veins. I could see them slightly better etc.

I have seen better results in two days with r-ala than in months of racemix ala.

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Flaming Heterosexual
Elite Bodybuilder



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(post #8)





Personally, the racematic mixture works ok for me, but the effects of r-seems to be ALOT more noticable.

FH

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The r-ALA has only been out 3 weeks so you can expect much more like this in the coming weeks. I only posted a couple but there are lots more if you do a search or look in my inbox.
I know you are opposed to science but these are the kinds of studies that led us to chose to sell r-ALA. IT WORKS MUCH BETTER!




Diabetes 1996 Dec;45(12):1798-804 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Stimulation of glucose uptake by the natural coenzyme alpha-lipoic acid/thioctic acid: participation of elements of the insulin signaling pathway.

Estrada DE, Ewart HS, Tsakiridis T, Volchuk A, Ramlal T, Tritschler H, Klip A.

Division of Cell Biology, Hospital for Sick Children, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Thioctic acid (alpha-lipoic acid), a natural cofactor in dehydrogenase complexes, is used in Germany in the treatment of symptoms of diabetic neuropathy. Thioctic acid improves insulin-responsive glucose utilization in rat muscle preparations and during insulin clamp studies performed in diabetic individuals. The aim of this study was to determine the direct effect of thioctic acid on glucose uptake and glucose transporters. In L6 muscle cells and 3T3-L1 adipocytes in culture, glucose uptake was rapidly increased by (R)-thioctic acid. The increment was higher than that elicited by the (S)-isomer or the racemic mixture and was comparable with that caused by insulin. In parallel to insulin action, the stimulation of glucose uptake by thioctic acid was abolished by wortmannin, an inhibitor of phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase, in both cell lines. Thioctic acid provoked an upward shift of the glucose-uptake insulin dose-response curve. The molar content of GLUT1 and GLUT4 transporters was measured in both cell lines. 3T3-L1 adipocytes were shown to have >10 times more glucose transporters but similar ratios of GLUT4:GLUT1 than L6 myotubes. The effect of (R)-thioctic acid on glucose transporters was studied in the L6 myotubes. Its stimulatory effect on glucose uptake was associated with an intracellular redistribution of GLUT1 and GLUT4 glucose transporters, similar to that caused by insulin, with minimal effects on GLUT3 transporters. In conclusion, thioctic acid stimulates basal glucose transport and has a positive effect on insulin-stimulated glucose uptake. The stimulatory effect is dependent on phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase activity and may be explained by a redistribution of glucose transporters. This is evidence that a physiologically relevant compound can stimulate glucose transport via the insulin signaling pathway.


Diabetologia 2000 Mar;43(3):294-303 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Engagement of the insulin-sensitive pathway in the stimulation of glucose transport by alpha-lipoic acid in 3T3-L1 adipocytes.

Yaworsky K, Somwar R, Ramlal T, Tritschler HJ, Klip A.

Hospital for Sick Children, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

AIMS/HYPOTHESIS: A natural cofactor of mitochondrial dehydrogenase complexes and a potent antioxidant, alpha-lipoic acid improves glucose metabolism in people with Type II (non-insulin-dependent) diabetes mellitus and in animal models of diabetes. In this study we investigated the cellular mechanism of action of alpha-lipoic acid in 3T3-L1 adipocytes. METHODS: We treated 3T3-L1 adipocytes with 2.5 mmol/l R (+) alpha-lipoic acid for 2 to 60 min, followed by assays of: 2-deoxyglucose uptake; glucose transporter 1 and 4 (GLUT1 and GLUT4) subcellular localization; tyrosine phosphorylation of the insulin receptor or of the insulin receptor substrate-1 in cell lysates; association of phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase activity with immunoprecipitates of proteins containing phosphotyrosine or of insulin receptor substrate-1 using a in vitro kinase assay; association of the p85 subunit of phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase with phosphotyrosine proteins or with insulin receptor substrate-1; and in vitro activity of immunoprecipitated Akt1. The effect of R (+) alpha-lipoic acid was also compared with that of S(-) alpha-lipoic acid. RESULTS: Short-term treatment of 3T3-L1 adipocytes with R (+) alpha-lipoic acid rapidly stimulated glucose uptake in a wortmannin-sensitive manner, induced a redistribution of GLUT1 and GLUT4 to the plasma membrane, caused tyrosine phosphorylation of insulin receptor substrate-1 and of the insulin receptor, increased the antiphosphotyrosine-associated and insulin receptor substrate-1 associated phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase activity and stimulated Akt activity. CONCLUSION/INTERPRETATION: These results indicate that R (+) alpha-lipoic acid directly activates lipid, tyrosine and serine/threonine kinases in target cells, which could lead to the stimulation of glucose uptake induced by this natural cofactor. These properties are unique among all agents currently used to lower glycaemia in animals and humans with diabetes.

 

[Hacker]

I'll put my worthless 2 cents in on this one.

I've been using the racemic ala for awhile now. I never really got heartburn from it, but did get really lethargic a few times. Overall, I was satisfied with the results. I was also in the middle of a cycle.

BUT,

I've been taking the r-ala for a couple of weeks. I can honestly say that I can feel and see the difference. I've been off of everything for a few months now. (except r-ala/nyc) I am more vascular now than I ever was while on. (test/winny/anavar) The pumps are incredible and I'm only taking 200-300mg a couple of times a day.

I don't understand when AF comes out with something that several people have awesome results theres always a few people bad mouthing it. (ie:decem and yohimburn) Without trying it themselves. We all now Iceman's motives for his negativity. It's fucken shameless!

I don't know Ulter or Macro, but have a HUGE trust in their products because they work for me well. To me, that's all that matters.

 

[Addicted]

Personal experience...

is also telling me that when I pull my carbs down too low...Ie 100-150gr a day, I flatten out on either r-ala or s-ala. Maybe you NEED to eat more carbs for ala to exert noticable positive effects. I am on the anabolic burst diet, and my cutitng days consist of carbs early and post work-out (also later in the am) and then protein and fat through the day...after 2 or 3 days of this on r-ala, I already feel flat. This will be my last low calorie phase, then 10 days of bulk and I am switching to an isocaloric diet except for the post workout 4 to1 liquid meal. I'll just increase my cardio a bit, my rule of thumb for the rest of the summer will be increased carbs with r-ala and I'll see how this works for overall bodyfat loss.

 

[Ulter]

That's what seems to work best. Go ahead and eat carbs but take the r-ALA and let it push them into your muscle cells. That's when these guys are getting the fuller look and pumps. The vascularity is noticable very quickly when you do this as well.

 

[Addicted]

It seems to make sense...

I think a lot of the negativity surrounding the r-ala may be from people on keto diets..it is after all summer.

I don't have a vested interest in the product, I own my own nutrition store and can get good ole s-ala very cheap. But I bought one bottle to try and realized that sometimes you need to give someting more time to see it's effectiveness especially when other variables need to be considered (like the change in my diet). I got great results off s-ala, but that was also in winter/spring while following a 50-30-20 diet. and taking about a gram a day, 400mg of it post workout

 

[PsychoSkitz]

ulter, macro:

does the no insulin spike mean that diabetics would be better off taking the racemic miuxture and they should avoid the r-ala?

 

[Ulter]

No, the reason the Germans use r-ALA for diabetics is to create a more even flow by making the cells more receptive to the insulin.

 

[THE BOUNCER]

first of he is not my friend, i just agree withwhat he says. there is no dought you can find a few post that praise, but look how many post question this product

 

[Ulter]

first of he is not my friend, i just agree withwhat he says. there is no dought you can find a few post that praise, but look how many post question this product

The posts praising it should be ignored and the ones questioning it should be taken note of. Well that's fair.
I don't see these negative posts you are referring to except for a couple guys who are using it while on keto diets. r-ALA won't change your life in a week or make you grow an inch taller. It will slim you down and fill out your muscles and some people will have this happen faster than others. But it will happen.

 

[mvmaxx]

I hate all these "regular ALA gives me heartburn" threads.
EAT SOME FUCKING FOOD AFTER YOU TAKE THEM!! GBUS!! Problem solved. It's NOT that hard.

 

[Ulter]

I hate all these "regular ALA gives me heartburn" threads.
EAT SOME FUCKING FOOD AFTER YOU TAKE THEM!! GBUS!! Problem solved. It's NOT that hard.

Unfortunately that doesn't work for everyone. I am glad it does for you though. It makes it easy.

 

[riskybizz007]

rangerx- i too experimented with high doses of the R-ALA. I haven't noticed anything, no stinky pee, no lethargy, no heart burn, no feeling of hypoglycemia, and don't experience any pumps as I've heard about. I don't know if it's a good thing, but I know that I can seem to even get into trace Ketosis with my regimen and I have been testing every couple days.

I felt same thing, no big pumps as w/ the racemic, no symptoms of hypoglycemia, no stinky pee as well lol, didn't help me in not getting sick either (antioxidant properties), and been taking 600mg for 3 weeks straight, have not noticed anything from it what so ever and I do eat plenty of carbs.

 

[mvmaxx]

I get heartburn if I don't eat. There's no way I could choke down 600-700mg of ALA w/o eating right after. But as long as I eat, no problems.

 

[JG1]

Whats the point of not eating after taking ALA....aren't you supposed to take ALA right before you eat?

 

[mvmaxx]

Whats the point of not eating after taking ALA....aren't you supposed to take ALA right before you eat?

Thank You!

 

[kronk]

4 days in and I still notice a differnce. I feel great, no heartburn, I am not all tired like beofre, but still go through periods of being tired.

Kronkette and I both see the same effects. Bottom line is that this shit works, I dont care who made it, I would buy it, hands down.

Remember, I started taking the racemix ala about 8 months ago, and saw results, but nothing like I have had in 4 days of r-ala.

 

[MR. BMJ]

The studies that I have seen on obesity in relation to highered insulin levels cannot be disputed. However, this all changes on a hypocaloric diet where there is an increase in replenishing muscle glycogen as opposed to fat stores. I just do not see the facts showing that a prerson will get obese from carbohydrates in their diets on a hypo diet. If calories in are less than calories out, then how can you get fat? This is where I find my problems with the assumptions (?) that an increase in insulin with S-ALA will cause obesity, or the problems leading to those complaining of abdominal obesity. If the R-ala has a better capacity to increase the GLUT4 receptors on the surface of the cells membranes, and S-ALA increases insulin, wouldn't this be a synergistic effect...in that a greater capacity by the cell to take in blood glucose, while the S-ala's actions of increased insulin will increase the actions/stimulation of glucose shuttled into the cells. Also, with the increase GLUT4 activation, how would blood glucose increase greatly any way even though insulin is increased with the S-ALA?

This brings up another point...lets say that the S-ala DOES negate a person's fat loss. How much of an insulin rise is the S-ALA giving off anyway, as compared to a person eating a meal containing carbs following a hypocaloric diet. We all know that people can get very lean even when carbs are in their diets...some they have to lower this...but these people that get to ultra lean bodyfat levels with carbs in their diets WILL get an increase in insulin AND still lose fat. MS is an example of someone that can get leaned out, as welll as many others, while still eating carbs. Anyone that has seen her pictures, as well as others, knows that the increase in insulin from their meals containing carbs did not hurt their progress for lipolysis.

It probably seems as though I am always at odds with the R-ala, but i'm not. I do feel that the R-ala has a better GLUT4 activation, as seen by the studies showing that their is a greater uptake of glucose.

BMJ

 

[macrophage69alpha]

a possible explanation for ALA "gut".. which has been associated with high dosage racemic use..

1: J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2002 Jul 1;87(7):3023-3028

Fat Accumulation in the Liver Is Associated with Defects in Insulin Suppression of Glucose Production and Serum Free Fatty Acids Independent of Obesity in Normal Men.

Seppala-Lindroos A, Vehkavaara S, Hakkinen AM, Goto T, Westerbacka J, Sovijarvi A, Halavaara J, Yki-Jarvinen H.

Department of Medicine, Divisions of Diabetes (A.S.-L., S.V., T.G., J.W., H.Y.-J.) and Clinical Physiology (A.S.), and Departments of Oncology (A.-M.H.) and Radiology (J.H.), University of Helsinki, FIN-00029 HUCH, Helsinki, Finland.

We determined whether interindividual variation in hepatic insulin sensitivity could be attributed to variation in liver fat content (LFAT) independent of obesity. We recruited 30 healthy nondiabetic men whose LFAT (determined by proton spectroscopy); intraabdominal, sc, and total (determined by magnetic resonance imaging) fat; and insulin sensitivity of endogenous glucose rate of production (R(a)) and suppression of serum FFA [euglycemic insulin clamp combined with [3-(3)H]glucose (0-300 min); insulin infusion rate, 0.3 mU/kg.min, 120-300 min] were measured. The men were divided into groups of low (mean +/- SD, 1.7 +/- 0.2%) and high (10.5 +/- 2.0%) LFAT based on their median fat content. The low and high LFAT groups were comparable with respect to age (44 +/- 2 vs. 42 +/- 2 yr), body mass index (25 +/- 1 vs. 26 +/- 1 kg/m(2) ), waist to hip ratio (0.953 +/- 0.013 vs. 0.953 +/- 0.013), maximal oxygen uptake (35.6 +/- 1.5 vs. 33.5 +/- 1.5 ml/kg.min), and intraabdominal, sc, and total fat. The high compared with the low LFAT group had several features of insulin resistance, including fasting hyperinsulinemia (7.3 +/- 0.6 vs. 5.3 +/- 0.6 mU/liter; P < 0.02, high vs. low LFAT) hypertriglyceridemia (1.4 +/- 0.2 vs. 0.9 +/- 0.1 mmol/liter; P < 0.02), a low high density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol concentration (1.4 +/- 0.1 vs. 1.6 +/- 0.1 mmol/liter; P < 0.05), and a higher ambulatory 24-h systolic blood pressure (130 +/- 3 vs. 122 +/- 3 mm Hg; P < 0.05). Basal glucose R(a) and serum FFA were comparable between the groups, whereas insulin suppression of glucose R(a) [51 +/- 8 vs. 20 +/- 12 mg/m(2).min during 240-300 min (P < 0.05) or -55 +/- 7 vs. -85 +/- 12% below basal (P < 0.05, high vs. low LFAT)] and of serum FFA (299 +/- 33 vs. 212 +/- 13 micromol/liter; 240-300 min; P < 0.02) were impaired in the high compared with the low LFAT group. Insulin stimulation of glucose Rd were comparable in the men with high LFAT (141 +/- 12 mg/m(2).min) and those with low LFAT (156 +/- 14 mg/m(2).min; P = NS). Fat accumulation in the liver is, independent of body mass index and intraabdominal and overall obesity, characterized by several features of insulin resistance in normal weight and moderately overweight subjects.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Mr. BMJ,

its not entirely clear whether s-ala "increases" insulin secretion.. what is clear is that plasma insulin levels are higher. the mechanism is not completely understood ....

it is not clear whether racemic or r-ala is better for keto.. but then again with good insulin sensitivity.. there should be no need for KETO.. the whole purpose of which is to reduce insulin (well the main reason of which).. plus a glucagon based dietary system may not be entirely healthy.. JMHO

(though recognizing that many things are not entirely healthy )

 

[macrophage69alpha]

interesting possibility.. the high doses of Racemic ALA CAUSE a ketosis FALSE POSITIVE...

WHY?

because of sulfhydryl metabolism and excretion (which are affected by thioctic acid).... sulfhydryl's react with sodium nitroprusside (which is what is used as an indicator in ketostix)....

 

[Frackal]

I just wanted to add my experience. It's hard to determine the difference in pumps because I'm on a cycle and shifting my caloric intake as well, but I do know that on 3 occasions I used the r-ala at 400mg with my first daily meal (which is always the same.) Each time I got fairly pronounced hypo symptoms such as shaky hands, and a feeling of being very sleepy 2 or so hours after I woke up...... I did not get this feeling using 900mg of nutriteam ala, nor did I get it with 300mg of r-ala.... so far this supports the idea that r-ala is 3x as potent as racemic.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

wrong study

this is not the right one either (missing )

but it covers same aspect


Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 2000 Nov 7;97(23):12735-40

Aromatase-deficient (ArKO) mice have a phenotype of increased adiposity.

Jones ME, Thorburn AW, Britt KL, Hewitt KN, Wreford NG, Proietto J, Oz OK, Leury BJ, Robertson KM, Yao S, Simpson ER.

Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research, Clayton, Victoria 3168, Australia. [email protected]

The aromatase-knockout (ArKO) mouse provides a useful model to examine the role that estrogens play in development and homeostasis in mammals. Lacking a functional Cyp19 gene, which encodes aromatase, the ArKO mouse cannot synthesize endogenous estrogens. We examined the adipose depots of male and female ArKO mice, observing that these animals progressively accumulate significantly more intraabdominal adipose tissue than their wild-type (WT) littermates, reflected in increased adipocyte volume at gonadal and infrarenal sites. This increased adiposity was not due to hyperphagia or reduced resting energy expenditure, but was associated with reduced spontaneous physical activity levels, reduced glucose oxidation, and a decrease in lean body mass. Elevated circulating levels of leptin and cholesterol were present in 1-year-old ArKO mice compared with WT controls, as were elevated insulin levels, although blood glucose levels were unchanged. Associated with these changes, a striking accumulation of lipid droplets was observed in the livers of ArKO animals. Our findings demonstrate an important role for estrogen in the maintenance of lipid homeostasis in both males and females.




estrogen effects insulin sensitivity..(this study shows effects of raised insulin on fat storage) where insulin levels are raised (or perhaps in the case where you have high levels of insulin mimetic drugs.. ie thioctic acid).. you will get increased levels of intra-abdominal fat.. especially if no insulin suppression (or in the case of ultra high levels.. really not clear..).. its just a "theory"

 

[SOLID]

interesting possibility.. the high doses of Racemic ALA CAUSE a ketosis FALSE POSITIVE...

WHY?

because of sulfhydryl metabolism and excretion (which are affected by thioctic acid).... sulfhydryl's react with sodium nitroprusside (which is what is used as an indicator in ketostix)....

are you saying that the ketostix are lying? That the racemix casues a chemical reaction to show ketones when actually your not even in ketosis?

 

[macrophage69alpha]

are you saying that the ketostix are lying? That the racemix casues a chemical reaction to show ketones when actually your not even in ketosis?

not for sure.. but it is certainly a possiblity...


also even if in ketosis.. ketostix only detect the acetoacetic.. not beta-hydroxybutyric acid or acetone.. both of which are "ketones"..

 

[kronk]

I just wanted to add my experience. It's hard to determine the difference in pumps because I'm on a cycle and shifting my caloric intake as well, but I do know that on 3 occasions I used the r-ala at 400mg with my first daily meal (which is always the same.) Each time I got fairly pronounced hypo symptoms such as shaky hands, and a feeling of being very sleepy 2 or so hours after I woke up...... I did not get this feeling using 900mg of nutriteam ala, nor did I get it with 300mg of r-ala.... so far this supports the idea that r-ala is 3x as potent as racemic.

Hey Frack. Cool, I am going to try that tomorrow. Im going to bump my post workout shake (50-60 grams whey, 100 grams dextrose) to 400mg of r-ala and see the difference.

 

[Ulter]

Thanks Kronk for posting your results.

 

[chrisoh]

Good lord, we should all just wait till the billion people that bought the stuff actually reports their results after a good few weeks of use. Racemic ALA never had this much suspicion around it, prolly cause it worked for almost everyone while it so far seems that r-ALA works for 50% ish.

 

[hitmeoff]

If he said he didn't get good results you would have roped off this post and called it a work of art. Face it bro r-ALA kicks ass and you will see a lot of these posts soon, just like I said earlier today.

Actually if he said that he didn't get good results on r-ALA, his post would have been delete, due to the fact, that a couple of Mod's( not all, but a few) on the board are affiliated with the only company that sells R-ALA, and are trying to protect there interests (investments).

So don't be believe everything you read!

It's kindof like Muscletech, with there over-hyping bullshit! They make it sound like if you use the R-ALA you will experience some kind of huge difference compared to the normal ALA!

Not True! [/B][/QUOTE]

Fuck man, how many times are you gonna post the same damn message???

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Fuck man, how many times are you gonna post the same damn message???

until he realizes that his sad attempts to draw attention to his home made ALA are just making him look spiteful. It is sad that just because r-ala has gotten a lot of attention lately that someone resorts to this.

btw- No one has said that racemic ALA does not work.. only that in certain aspects r-ala is superior..

note- there is currently the issue of whether it is as good for KETO-- unfortunately.. its not clear.. partially since the high dosages of racemic ala may be causing keto false positives(sulfyhydryl cause false positives).. or it may be that with r-ala use that aceto-acetic acid is not the main ketone (there are three).. and since ketostix only test for acetoacetic.. well...

 

[rangerx83]

not for sure.. but it is certainly a possiblity...


also even if in ketosis.. ketostix only detect the acetoacetic.. not beta-hydroxybutyric acid or acetone.. both of which are "ketones"..

Yes, I've heard about that too, that r/s-ala undergoes a chemical process that causes ketostix positives, especially when taken in large amounts. There's only one problem with this theory: There have been plenty of times where I've taken large amounts of r/s-ala with way too much carbs and not get a positive for ketosis. This would mean that the chemical reaction does not happen every time I place it in my body, which is not possible. I should be getting a false positive *every* time I consume the racemic ala but I don't. The ketostix reading correlates directly with the amount of carbs I ate, ranging from being in trace ketosis to deep, deep ketosis.

Therefore I must assume that it is a real positive
Rangerx83

 

[rangerx83]

Ulter,
flattery will get you nowhere .
Thanks for saying I'm half your age, but I'm quite close to you age, I'm 41. So I guess that would mean that I have excellent insulin sensitivity?

Also, the reason why I was using those 'unpleasant sides' as indicators that the r-ALA is working is because neither you or macro, ever mentioned the fact that r-ala lacked these side effects for most or some people.

Clearly you didn't realize this, because if you had, you would have used the lack of these specific sides from r-ala as a main selling point.

<example>
With R-ALA:
-No more heartburn!
-No more stinky pee!
-No more passing out while operating heavy machinery!*

* Disclaimer: There may be some people who still experience hypoG or lethargic effects, your experience may vary.
</example>

See what I mean? You should place these points on your web site. If r-ala gave positive effects EQUAL to those of the racemic, the lack of these nasty sides effects alone, would cause me and plenty others to switch over..

The other reason, was that no one else had mentioned the lack of these sides from r-ala, and you did not address the issue until I created this thread.

As far as looking in the mirror, that is not a good test for me, since I'm now also doing yohimbine HCL + NYC, which I have never done before, so I could not really say what supplement is affecting what.

BTW your NYC is excellent. I don't get nauseous from it like I did with the old Syntrax Adipokinetix (another NYC stack)

Rangerx83

There is a very good reason why my experiencing hypoG on 300mg may be different than yours. I am 46 years old and it's much easier for me to induce hypoG with r-ALA than it is for someone half my age. But I don't know why you would want to. It looks like some of the people are trying to use the unpleasant sides as a indicator that it's working. I would use a mirror to see if it was working if I were you. I don't understand why anyone would think it's going to change you overnight or even in a week. There are people like me who will feel the sides right away and others who won't feel them at all. But that doesn't mean it's not doing the same thing to you as it does to me.
Every single email we've received from people in the last 2 weeks has been nothing short of phenomenal in terms of the successful use of r-ALA but some had sides. One guy wrote me that he got headaches and lethargy with only 200mg. Those are signs of low blood sugar folks and that's what it does.
As far as the keto dieters go, I know you've been waiting for some kind of response as to why you're getting better readings on your stix with ALA but we don't have one yet.
In all honesty I don't know why anyone would bother with all the hassle of keto when you've got r-ALA. You will get rid of just as much fat with r-ALA and a normal diet as you will with keto and you will get the advantage of the most powerful anti-oxidant in the world, with no extra charge.

Iceman is pretty funny running around saying someone is pulling the wool over someone?s eyes. He?s praying that all the research in the last 30 years is wrong about r-ALA being so much more potent because he is sitting on a pile of ALA. Well that's not going to happen.
I will say this again. We could have bought huge supplies of ALA and sold it for half of what it's being sold for by these people posting and MADE MORE MONEY doing it. But when we saw the difference in the potency and efficiency of r-ALA, how all the research done on humans was only done with r-ALA, what the finding of the studies pitting one against the other were, we went ahead and spent the extra money and went through all the hassle of getting the right ALA, r.

 

[Gambler]

EVERYONE that is a potential buyer of any of these products needs to never forget that, on boards like these, there are economic relationships between some MOD's and suppliers (of both legal and illegal substances).

It is great that people offer to share experiences and advice. The relationships of various parties will never be known by the average board member. Therefroe, some "advice" will be tainted.

Not accusing anybody of anything but just reminding people to think decisions through and examine ALL of the factts before parting with their hard earned $$$

 

[Ulter]

Thanks for saying I'm half your age, but I'm quite close to you age, I'm 41. So I guess that would mean that I have excellent insulin sensitivity?

No the opposite actually.

I wasn't speaking about you directly but if I were you I'd grab it as a compliment too.
Thanks for the tips on selling points but we've made them repeatedly in posts last month. You probably passed them over.

EVERYONE that is a potential buyer of any of these products needs to never forget that, on boards like these, there are economic relationships between some MOD's and suppliers (of both legal and illegal substances).

It is great that people offer to share experiences and advice. The relationships of various parties will never be known by the average board member. Therefroe, some "advice" will be tainted.

Not accusing anybody of anything but just reminding people to think decisions through and examine ALL of the factts before parting with their hard earned $$$

AF is the company selling r-ALA, I am part of AF. AF is a sponsor of this board and pays lots of money to openly advertise via the banner at the top. There is nothing hidden or synister about it.
AF seeks out products that benefit body builders and bring them to market. We encourage people to use these products of course but we are more interested in their results being posted because from a market research standpoint it's a very valuable tool.
The feedback on the board is worth more than the sale of the product. We don't want "contrived" results posted, we need to know if the products really work like we want them to.

 

[ryce]

AF is the company selling r-ALA, I am part of AF. AF is a sponsor of this board and pays lots of money to openly advertise via the banner at the top. There is nothing hidden or synister about it.
products really work like we want them to.

Ulter it is not a crime to have your own biz and market it but let me know how you define "paying lots of money"

Is it what Muscletech pays to ad on Muscle mag or what Muscletech pays to ad on Men's Health?
or maybe what AF would pay to ad on Musclemag ?

 

[Ulter]

You'll have to ask Muscletech what they pay. I wouldn't know.

 

[ryce]

You'll have to ask Muscletech what they pay. I wouldn't know.

I think you missed my point.....

Anyway, what do you meant by lots of money?

 

[hitmeoff]

Ok heres my Own r-ALA story. Havent finished my bottle to r-ALA yet. But ive been taking 200mg 3 times a day for the past 12 or 14 days. Havent noticed ANY fat loss. But I also didnt experiance any fat loss on Racemic. Im on a bulking cycle right now. Winding down my Dbol phase and starting Winny in a few weeks, my acne has flared up, so I may decide to use accutane while on the cycle (ive done up to 80mg ED of Accutane before with no problems, I normally do 40mg treatments, may do 40mg this go round) so Im taking r-ALA mostly for the liver protection.

As ive said before, racemic ALA gve me BAD rashes when I took 1200mg per day. On 600mg, I get no rashes what so ever, so if its working to protect my liver, then its well worth it for me.

One quesiton for ulter. Since 600mg isnt doing much of anything for fat burning, what dosage of r-ALA should I use?

 

[Ulter]

Nothing is going help you lose weight in the middle of a bulking cycle. Especially if you just finished the dbol phase. You are so full of water right now you couldn't possibly know if you lost fat.
Wait until you're cutting to see what it can do for you. You are getting the best liver protection on the planet with r-ALA so just eat well, train hard and grow. When you're through with the clomid course and you lose some water we'll get into cutting.