Question on 5x5 Loading & PRs

[Protobuilder]

I've been reading and reading and am personally doing the SF 5x5 . . . but something has got me wondering: Glenn Pendlay has said elsewhere that if you're doing the 5x5 w/ the same weight (i.e., the higher-volume advanced version where you don't pyramid your weights), you'll go through a loading period of several weeks and that you shouldn't expect to get any stronger during this time. He says you will get stronger though when you reduce volume in a deload / intensity phase. This all makes sense -- dual factor theory and all -- but does this mean that in the loading phase of the Dual Factor 5x5, you shouldn't shoot for PRs? I sort of thought we shot for PRs each Friday.

Is the difference that madcow's version has you pyramiding on Friday and shooting for PRs? That would explain what I'm confused about . . . but then I wonder why we pyramid on Friday instead of just doing 5 straight sets at the same weight . . . why not just do the full-on loading phase, squat yourself silly w/ no pyramiding, and then back off and blow up in the intensity/peak phase???

 

[Madcow2]

Doing M/F with 5x5 straight sets is probably a lot more than most can take coming to this from a BBing background. Looking at results, most don't seem to need that kind of workload although a few do and several here have been progressing to the point where it will likely start showing up sooner or later. With the lighter workload it also makes the program more accessible. If someone comes to it who really isn't ready, it's not enough to really break them in half and they still see solid progress.

Of course the other thing is that with setting this up to equal current PRs on week 3, and to be conservative, you really don't wind up with heavy loading. Maybe towards the end you get fatigued but for most, they likely aren't bombing away for 14 days straight (which is a lot for anyone to load). So this is conservative, let's a greater number and broader distribution of people (skewed toward the novice/intermediate) get out of the program with good results, and allows for people to push a lot harder later once they know what's going on. Basically, better to get 60-80% than 0% and blow up - and most people are typically used to 10-15% if they are making progress anyway, so it comes out in the wash. In reality, setting PRs is going to be very hard (maybe impossible) if you are overreaching and have good estimates - it's the trying that matters.

Glenn kind of has the advantage of knowing the people that use his programs and adjusting them accordingly, and his credibility is golden. Plus, people who know who he is generally aren't the BBer types who know very little about training. When I first posted this here, I knew I had to make it accessible (although I never thought real novices or beginners would be trying it) to a broader audience and get almost everyone results. Because if a few people bomb - it's the program that sucks not the 'man-geek' who tried this after 3 months of Bowflex. To get people interested in real training, I had to show them something they had never seen and could easily confirm (i.e. dual factor theory) and then provide a program that was easy to understand, accessible, and got big results. So in the end, I made it conservative and later gave them the tools and knobs to turn to make it harder (i.e. PRs in both 3/4 and 8/9 rather than just a new PR in 4/9) and if people found they required additional volume to step up the 1x5/1x3 days. On the whole though it's worked fairly well though. Probably about right for most people in this forum before the program got popular and started attracting younger and less experienced lifters.

EDIT: oh yeah, as anotherbutter's said below, if you are making really solid gains in the first phase - this has nothing to do with periodization, this is all about proper structure in a program (frequency, volume, intensity %1RM). If you are shooting the lights out, you'd be better served with lower overall workload and more consistent PRs (i.e. why wait once every 4-8 weeks when you can ramp for 3-4 weeks and then string together 6-8 weeks of them - it's a lot more efficient use of time). Of course, telling that to people has to be done nicely as it isn't this "new dual factor theory" thing but a "you don't know anything about program design thing". Kind of important to remember that we all started ignorant and those who learned the most just kept at it and learned from a lot of mistakes.

 

[anotherbutters]

It sounds like you might be confusing the SF and DF workouts, or at least their aims.

In the SF, you simply try to lift slightly heavier from week to week. This is just plain supercompensation. The ramping 1x5 workouts serve to give you enough stimulus to build muscle without incurring a large amount of fatigue that you'd need to recover from. This works for people within their first year or two of lifting (or for people who have been lifting for years on an ineffective routine), where you can still set PRs every week or two.

At some point, your progress will slow to the point where the SF workouts stop being effective, so you have to employ periodization (fitness/fatigue theory). The flat 5x5 workouts are nothing more than a tool to let you do more work than you can cope with in the long term. As you're doing the 5x5 workouts, you get stronger, but you also build up a lot of fatigue, which masks that strength. In the deloading phase, you recover from the fatigue and use the increased strength/fitness to set PRs. You typically set PRs at the end of an 8-9 week run of the DF.

So, to answer your question, the point of the loading phase is to get in a lot of volume to increase fitness and fatigue, not necessarily to set PRs. In fact, if you manage to set PRs in the loading phase, then you might be better served with something like the SF.

Note that there's nothing magical about 1x5 and 5x5, they just happen to be in the right ballpark for their respective purposes for most people.

EDIT: dammit, beaten by 60 seconds by madcow!

 

[Protobuilder]

Damn good responses. Both made lots of sense. Thanks big time. I've said it before but it's worth saying again -- I've learned more valuable info. from this site (and 1-2 others) in the past 4 months than I'd learned in several years prior w/ "typical" BB'ing junk. There's just a whole 'nother level out there that is unknown to BB'rs -- the level of designing a program beyond simply picking exercises ("pinky twist unilateral DB curls on Friday using the superduper shock technique, then Monday, use ascending sets of BB curls to exhaust the mitochondria").

 

[anotherbutters]

Damn good responses. Both made lots of sense.

I find it really interesting how people respond to questions. Madcow and I posted completely different responses, yet you found both useful. I think that's pretty cool!

Good luck on your 5x5. Post a question when you get stuck.

 

[Protobuilder]

There's just lots of good training info. on this site, beyond simply how to select and perform various exercises, which is what bodybuilders talk about most. This site talks about a lot of other training variables in a way that makes sense. And studying the 5x5, like Glenn said, it's really about the principles behind it and by learning the 5x5, you learn how to successfully structure a PROGRAM. I've learned a lot about manipulating and managing volume, using fatigue, setting PRs, controlling intensity, etc.

Maybe it's just being presented in a diff't way than I'm used to. Maybe at heart, it's still just about programming sets and reps (i.e., work), but studying the 5x5 and listening to Madcow and others, I feel like I've taken my training knowledge to a whole new level.

 

[anotherbutters]

That's exactly how I felt when I first read about the 5x5. It's not the only program that regulates volume, intensity and frequency, but madcow has done a good job of using it to educate people about those variables on this site. It's a good program, but it's also a starting point into a whole new world of training - Korte, Smolov, HST, etc. (and also understanding that beginners don't need all that).

You're right, it really is just about programming sets and reps. But it's about doing so over a much longer period than a typcial bodybuilder might think about ("shall I do a few sets of flies next?"). Imagine telling your typical gym rat that you could tell him exactly what weight and how many reps you were going to do for your third set of bench press six weeks from now. He'd think you were mad. But if you were following the DF 5x5, you could do exactly that, and you could virtually guarantee results that would blow him away over the same 8-9 week period compared to what he was doing. At the end of the day, it's still just sets and reps, but put together to form a whole new ball game.

Enjoy

 

[Madcow2]

Sets/reps are just work. It's a matter of arranging work in a way to allow for optimal progression for a given trainee. Nothing really fancy about any of it, just bare bones simple stuff. Let the new kid, get under the bar and push the weight up every time or every other time. Let the guy who can increase week to week have at it and keep volume low enough so that faitgue doesn't overtake him. For the guy who can't get a nice string of weekly new records anymore, let him work hard for a period and then recover to realize the benefits. When something stops working, understand the variables and change appropriately to allow for more. Don't fix what isn't broken.

Training doesn't have to be complicated - it's still fairly easy and basic stuff. Unfortunately, after decades of "it's 90% diet" and "anything can work - find out what works best for you", most BBers and the general public are in the Stone Age. 98% of practical application of training science is basic arithematic and some judgement call (i.e. art on top of basic science) but for some guy getting pulled out of 'Quest for Fire' wearing bear skin to the gym, going in grunting at the weight between sets, and then hoping the iron god rewards him for some random effort - it's quite a shock to see actual method behind it.