Question for the Cardio Gurus...

[JB3]

Since the women on this board know more about cardio than any man could ever dream, I thought I'd serve my question here, if y'all don't mind.

Has anyone tried eating only protein (no carbs) before morning cardio? Would your body simply use the protein for energy or deaminate it into glucose? I've read that some have had success fighting catabolism using this techinque.

Also, since the aim is to burn mostly fat and keep the intensity low enough as to not stress the body into burning muscle, what % of mhr do y'all normally maintain? I've found that my lactate threshold is roughly 165 bpm, which would equate to roughly 80-85% of mhr. Should I easy off and attempt to maintain an easier pace? And in the same vein, assuming they'd burn the same amount of calories, is 45 min @ 80% mhr equal to 60 min @ 65% mhr? I assume no... why?

Thanks.

 

[JB3]

anyone?

 

[blueyedkowgrl]

i don't really know. but that is a damn good question.. I'd love to see an answer to this one.

 

[skydancer]

I have done this...protein shake with a bit of flax actually while bulking. I can't say chemically how my body used it but I definately didn't have any problems with losing muscle. Of course I wasn't doing a ton of cardio either. 1-2 45m sessions a week.

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The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing. - Socrates

 

[Cheetarah]

Keep a moderate pace, stay in your aerobic zone and not your anaerobic zone. You cannot burn fat without the presence of oxygen (hence anaerobic). You can probably find out what your target heart rate is for the aerobic zone somewhere on the web. I got mine from my nordic track manual. Also, if you really what to lose the fat, don't eat any carbs prior to cardio, best to do it in the morning when your glycogen stores are low so it forces your body to burn something other than sugar, fat we hope. To help combat it using muscle for fuel, I use glutamine and will sometimes have a protein drink prior. This will help preserve the muscle while burning the fat. Hope this helps.

Train hard or go home

 

[JB3]

I'm sorry, but there's no such thing as an "anaerobic zone." Truely anaerobic feats last <45 seconds, depending on adaptation. This is why the 400m is the longest "sprint." Exceeding this amount of time in a pure sprint is approaching impossible because of the fuel required. (You use no oxygen.) However, anything lasting over a minute is aerobic in nature, at least to a great extent, so ANY continuous cardio lasting more than a minute is largely aerobic.

Are you telling me that 30 minutes of intervals (run/jog) is purely anaerobic in nature? Well, that's completely false. We do not have the capacity.

True, exercise under roughly 65% of MHR is almost entirely aerobic (Lyle McDonald), but a completely aerobic exercise does not have to be the goal. Burning calories is our goal, and that's all that matters. If you burn more than you eat you'll lose weight. I don't understand where all this "you MUST do slow-as-hell cardio to lose fat" crap came from but it's total bull.

Glycogen is required to burn fat. Have you heard of "the wall" that long-distance runners hit? They experience a drastic decrease in performance once glycogen has been depleted. You cannot run on fat alone.

WarLobo, yes, energy expenditure is exponential with speed! That's exactly my point. If I run twice as fast as you're walking, I'm burning more than twice the amount of calories = EFFICIENCY. I'll also burn more calories AFTER exercise because of an increased metabolism AND have a raised metabolism for a longer period of time.

If speed is catabolic, blah, blah, blah... tell me why Olympic sprinters (drug tested) have such a low bodyfat with a high amount of muscle???

 

[MS]

Rather than use terms like "aerobic" and "anaerobic", it is more meaninful to talk in terms of % energy that comes from fat oxidation versus glycolysis or gluconeogenesis. When we look at exercize this way we see that doing nothing burns the highest %fat, and a flat out sprint burns the lowest %fat. So yes, sprinting burns more calories (and more fat), but backing off the pace a tad will increase the %fat burned when doing cardio (though less energy overall). Liver glycogen and blood glucose levels also affect the %fat burned, and a protein drink can affect both of these and slow the depletion of liver glycogen. This is not to say that sprinting is no good for fat loss, or that protein will make you fat! It really depends on your goals.

As far as metabolism boosts from cardio, this is one area where men and women may be very different. In men, maintaining aerobic fitness seems to burn calories WHILE exercizing, but may not have any post exercize metabolic benefits:

Effects of Aerobic Fitness on Fat Oxidation and Body Fatness.

For years, it has been debated as to whether aerobic exercise and high aerobic fitness can actually increase resting (non-exercise) metabolic rate or whether it simply burns calories only while you're doing the exercise.   It is well known that resistance exercise not only burns calories during the exercise bout but that it increases metabolic
rate for 24-48 hours after the exercise bout.  This information has tremendous impact on body composition and fatness. This study was designed to examine the relationships between fat breakdown (oxidation), aerobic fitness, and body fatness.  49 male and 45 female adults were evaluated based on their aerobic fitness levels (VO2 max), body fat levels (underwater weighing), resting metabolic rate and fat breakdown (metabolic cart), and 24-hour energy expenditure
(whole room indirect calorimeter).  Before testing, subjects abstained from exercise for at least 36 hours so that true resting measures of fat breakdown, metabolic rate, and 24-hour energy expenditure were not influenced by the previous exercise bout.  The authors speculated that daily fat breakdown is regulated by fat mass, physical activity, and fitness. Results:
1) On non-exercise days, males with higher aerobic fitness scores broke down less fat than those who had lower aerobic fitness scores.  This was not true in women.
2) There was no relationship between 24-hour energy expenditure on non-exercise days and fitness scores for men or women.  This means that fitter individuals do not burn more calories on non-exercise days than those who are less fit.
3) Males with more body fat had higher rates of fat breakdown than those with less body fat.  This was not true in women.
4) Fat free mass did not correlate well with fat breakdown for men or women so it appears that muscle mass does not regulate fat breakdown very well.

(A. Kriketos, et al. Med Sci Sports Exerc, 32(4): 805-811,
2000.)

 

[Cheetarah]

Okay, sorry, I have obviously misled people with my explanation, let me try it again. I know that the body cannot sustain a purely anaerobic activity for very long at all which is why you get cramps with the buildup of lactic acid being a byproduct of the reaction without oxygen. But there is a point at which your body will start performing BOTH reactions i.e. with and without the oxygen and for most people it is usually at about 80% of their maximum capacity which correlates directly to heart rate. That is the point when the body starts falling short of being able to provide enough oxygen for the rapidly contracting muscles. So you burn a higher percentage of BF at moderate levels of intensity since all the metabolic reactions are with oxygen, but at the same time, you do burn more calories overall at a higher intensity which can still mean more fat is burned. The whole trick is to try and get your body to burn the fat instead of the glucose and glycogen. So you don't want to carb up before the activity.

Not sure what you mean by needing glycogen to burn fat, glycogen is just the storage form of sugars in your muscles. Not sure how that plays into fat burning, explain please? Definitely a decrease in performance once glycogen is used up, being a speedskater, I can attest to that.

Ever notice the body composition of sprinters as compared to long distance runners? I think all the long distance runners I've seen are skinny, most likely because they burn up all the glycogen in their systems then their bodies burn off the fat and muscle.

I just love this stuff, biology, physiology, fitness, nutrition, always thirsting to learn more!

TRAIN HARD OR GO HOME

 

[JB3]

MS,


"Fitter individuals do not burn more calories on non-workout days than non-fit individuals" ? Excuse me? I guess it depends on the definition of "fitter," but having a higher muscle mass will most definately burn more calories on non-work days, so I'm not sure what this means. Are you saying that these fit and non-fit individuals had the exact same amount of LBM? Somehow I doubt that. Fitter people have a higher BMR... but maybe I'm misreading.

Cheetarah,

I don't know the exact physiology yet (I'm starting Grad School this fall so ask me in a year, heh), but glycogen IS required to burn fat. You mentioned that you know about "The Wall." Well, this is the point at which glycogen store become depleted, resulting in a drastic drecrease in performance. This is because you cannot burn fat alone for energy (during exercise). SOME glycogen is required. The amount of which is dependant upon the intensity of the activity, as MS mentioned.

My point is this... Calories are calories, and you burn more calories (exponentially so) the faster you jog/run. Running @ 8 mph for 30 min burns more calories than walking @ 4 mph for an hour. And you will burn more calories post-exercise because of the intensity of the activity. This makes jogging/running much more efficient than walking.

Yes, long distance runners are skinny, but a heavy fart could blow them over (they have no muscle). I assume this is not the look you're trying to attain. Sprinters are very lean AND have a high proportion of muscle. This is the look I'm going for.

I'm experimenting with pre-cardio carbs/protein and have yet to find the perfect amount/ratio. All I know is that my lactate threshold is MUCH higher during cardio if I have SOME carbs in me. Without any carbs, lactate pools much more quickly causing side aches. Normally, I'll never get cramps, but I do if I don't eat anything. If I feel better and my workout is much more productive, tell me why eating 25g of carbs and protein before cardio is hurting me? Those extra 100 calories (from carbs) are most definately being burned off by the extra effort I'm able to put forth.

Just my experiences, y'all.

 

[Cheetarah]

I'm going for the sprinter's look also. I've experienced the same exact thing when doing cardio, the more carbs (simple and complex) I have in me, the better I perform. I am able to perform at a higher intensity for longer periods. That's why I always carb up before my speedskating practices, I last much longer that way. I've recently cut way down on my carb intake (on non-speedskating days, since I don't want my speedskating to suffer) and I have noticed something. For the last couple days I have noticed that after about 35 min of steady, moderate intensity, same resistance, on my nordic track, my heart rate suddenly goes up about 10 beats per minute and the same resistance feels harder and my muscles feel tired. I was wondering to myself if it is because I have depleted most of my glycogen and my body has kicked into burning other fuel, which is what I'm hoping. I have never noticed it before when I know I had carbs in my system. I don't cramp up or anything, just my heart rate goes up and my muscles tighten up. This has been when I haven't had any carbs prior. I'm wondering if the body has to kick into a higher gear to burn something other than glucose since glucose is the easiest for it to break down. Any thoughts on this?

 

[MS]

As I said before, it depends on your goals. JB3, what that study was pointing out was that moderate cardio exercise does not raise you BMR if you're male. Of course your BMR is determined to a large extent by the amount of LBM you carry, but LBM comes from weight training, not moderate cardio.

As for carbs and protein before interval training, these will both help with your performance and how you feel during exercize. Glucose is what your body prefers to burn, in fact it absolutely requires it for all out maximal short term effort. However, if you are primarily concerned with fatloss rather than how good your cardio experience feels, or how fast you run, then those extra carbs and protein will slow the rate of fat burning.

One thing that is important to distinguish is the difference between moderate cardio and intense sprints. Sprinting, IMHO, should be considered more as a type of heavy weight training. I think you get a similar increase in 24-48 BMR from sprint work as you do from weights. And since guys don't seem to get this increase in metabolism from moderate cardio, it makes a lot of sense for guys to stick to interval work. Like weight training, you need a decent meal a few hours before sprinting to get optimal benefit from it.

As far as physiques go, sprinters work tremendously hard to look like sprinters! They now spend more time with the weights than they do sprinting. Endurance athletes avoid weight training like the plague because all that extra muscle carried over a long distance is a waste of energy.

Now what does this have to do with women? I think anyone who has worked with women who are not on AS will tell you that women respond better to moderate intensity, longer bouts of cardio (I'm speaking strictly in terms of fat loss, not performance). Personally, I mix it up. I like to start with interval work to warm up and deplete glycogen quickly, then decrease the intensity and hang out at moderate pace for the rest of the session. It works for me anyway.

 

[JB3]

MS,

Thanks for the explanation of the study. Yes, I'd agree that moderate cardio has very little affect on BMR.

Let's discuss something, however. You said (as does almost everyone on this board) that ingesting carbs before cardio will reduce the amount of fat being used as fuel during exercise. So, let me get this straight...

Day A: I eat nothing before cardio and maintain 65% MHR for 60 min.
Day B: I eat 25g of carbs before cardio and maintain 65% of MHR for 60 min.

Are you saying that my body will somehow use a different fuel pathway for Day A compared to Day B? How is this so? Shouldn't the pecentage of fuel from fat be exactly the same no matter what I've eaten beforehand as long as the workout intensity and duration are exactly the same?

Does not total calorie intake (burned>eaten) determine weight loss? So why do you mention that "carbs and protein will slow the speed of fat burning"?

 

[MS]

"Are you saying that my body will somehow use a different fuel pathway for Day A compared to Day B? How is this so? Shouldn't the pecentage of fuel from fat be exactly the same no matter what I've eaten beforehand as long as the workout intensity and duration are exactly the same?"

Blood glucose/insulin inhibits lipolysis. As you use up your free glucose and stored glycogen, your body will increase the % of fat mobilized for energy. Basically, anything that raises your blood glucose levels will to a greater or lesser extent inhibit fatloss. You have to balance this up with the need for glucose in the muscles during all out anaerobic bursts (ie sprinting).

"Does not total calorie intake (burned>eaten) determine weight loss? So why do you mention that "carbs and protein will slow the speed of fat burning"?

Total calories burned=weight loss if greater than total calories consumed. That is true. But weightloss does not always=fatloss. But as I've said before, if you're sprinting and weight training, you will likely be raising you BMR. Remember that you burn the greatest % fat while at rest. So if you can increase your resting metabolism, this will have a larger impact on your ability to lose fat, even if you're not losing it all WHILE you're doing your sprints. Make sense?

 

[keiko]

MS--you have such a great way of putting techie stuff into clear prose. Are you going to write a book! I wish you would.

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It's not funny, like on TV, and it's not smart, like it is in books.

 

[sweets]

ok, so morning cardio on an empty stomach IS very efficient in cutting down bodyfat, right. yesh. BUT how do i decide the intensity????

2 scenarios (i've gathered from this thread... great info, btw you were so right, warlobo):

(1) walking at a moderate pace will burn MORE fat WHILE walking but LOWER your BMR = losing less fat during non-workout time;

BUT

(2) jogging will burn LESS fat WHILE jogging but INCREASE your BMR = burning more fat during non-workout time...

MY QUESTION:
then i f my goals are to drop bf%, look lean, but retain muscle, should i then consider jogging in the a.m. and lifting maybe heavier to compensate for the muscle deterioration due to catabolic activity????

i have gotten lazier with my cardio intensity and have recently taken up treadmill inclined walking (15% incline at 2.6-2.8 speed for 30-45 min. after weights... 60 min. on mornings when i only do cardio) but see, i HAVE noticed that i do NOT look as lean as i do when running but i definately look more muscular. hmmm.

goals: drop bf while retaining muscle.

thanks

oh, one more thing: keiko's got a sweet idea. c'mon ms. you'd make many of us smile. make some literature, babes!!!

 

[MS]

Sweets, If you have close reread of some of the stuff that's come out in this thread, you will see that moderate intensity cardio increases the BMR of women, but not men. So if you're a female, just make sure you do some cardio (high or moderate intensity, or both).

 

[sweets]

i'm slipping. sorry, but my question remains...

would i need to lift heavier in order to compensate for muscle loss if i choose to run rather than walk???? just wondering how far muscle loss really goes when choosing to do a catabolic exercise. my body just gets quicker and more noticable cutting results with higher intensity cardio. thanks, ms.

 

[JB3]

...jogging will burn LESS fat WHILE jogging...

This is a common misconception. Jogging will not burn less fat than walking. Walking will burn a higher percentage of fat, but jogging/running will burn more fat and calories.

I'm not going to get into specific numbers because every individual will be different. However, speed and calorie burn are not linear. For instance, you'll burn more calories running @ 7mph for 30 min than walking @ 3.5 mph for an hour.

Think about it... would it be easier to walk 10 miles or run 10 miles? Forget about time. Which one would you be able to complete? Running is way harder, right? That's because it takes more energy to move quickly vs. slowly.

What's my point? I believe cardio is best done at the maximum intensity possible for 20+ minutes. This will fall under your lactate threshold (which is roughly 80-85% of mrh), or may higher and return below if doing intervals. Which ever method you choose, do it at the highest possible intesity you can hold for the alotted time. If I'm shooting for 30 min, I'll obviously run more slowly than if I was shooting for 20 min, but I'm going to run as fast as possible - under my lactate threshold.

I also believe cardio should be done after lifting or later in the day 3-4 hours after eating. I've tried morning cardio before eating and it makes me feel like total shit. I have no energy, my lactate threshold is much lower; thus, my intensity is affected, causing a poor workout. Also, I'm usually nauseous afterwards because of the low blood sugar. It's not for me. Ask yourself this question: If I had eaten 100-200 calories before this morning cardio, would I have been able to perform at a higher intensity and burned off those extra calories... and felt better in the process? Calories are calories are calories. No matter when you eat them, a caloric deficit equals weight loss.

I'll step off my soapbox now.

Peace.

 

[sweets]

you're very right, jb3. about 98% of the time, i fell soooo nauseous from an intense a.m. workout on an empty stomach that i'm forced to cut my cardio in almost half, lasting only 30-45 min max. i definately workout better when fed. (yummm. now i get to eat my breakfast in peace ). i will keep it small, though. thanks.

 

[tripleV]

bump

 

[poohbear]

running a mile burns the same amount of calories as walking a mile

 

[rasta]

cross training

When I do cardio in the gym I usually do two - three different exercises. I will bicycle at a high level of resistance as hard and fast as I can for 15 -20 minutes. I then immediately move to the stairs, where I do a strength program at the highest level that I can for 15 - 20 minutes. I then follow with running at around 6 mph (fast for me) and will sometimes break the run half way through with a 15% grade walk at about 4.0mph for about 3minutes. How does this stand as far as achieving fat loss while maintaining muscle and increasing my metabolic rate throughout the next 24hr period?

P.S. For anyone experiencing consistant cramps. When was the last soda that you drank? Carbon dioxide in carbonated drinks can intefer with the body's oxygen exchange for up to 24hrs after consumption (depending on several physical attributes). I have found that removing these drinks from my diet has eliminated this pain. Maybe, if you do drink sodas, you should try removing these drinks from your diet.

 

[rasta]

Bump

 

[jazziemel]

JB3

I have been doing cardio 530am on an empty stomach, and I never get aches, I actually tried drinking a protein shake one morning and I could barely keep my intensity level up, so I went back to an empty stomach, before cardio. I do 1 hour of cardio, using 2-3 different machines, I think this works best for me, I lost a good amount of lbs, and fat with my cardio and weightlifting regimen.

I use the elliptical stair climber 45 mins HR 155,80-85 % I burn 560 cal. I then will jump on the cross trainer, the one with the handles for 15 mins and burn 200 cal. If I ever use the treadmill or stationary bike I can never burn more than 400 cal, and hour. So, if I want to do any running, I'll run on the street for a couple of miles.

I have been doing sprints for years, I sprint for 100 yards, I go for about 90% of my speed, I will do about 10 sets and believe me your muscles will grow and you will be much leaner, I sprint once a week, because I work my quads in the gym on Tue, so I will sprint on Sunday.

you read all the scientific studies and jargons, but your genetics has alot to do with it, you have to go with personal experience not theories.

 

[musclegirl28]

I am a female bodybuilder... I'm 19 week out from a show... I am 27% bodyfat... looking to shed all the way down to minimal bodyfat. I have thus far lost 16 pounds in 6 weeks, and continue to drop 2-3 pounds per week on average. My goal is to lose weight without losing too much muscle. My cardio has been 45 minutes 5 times a week on the stationary bike at a moderate pace. What would you suggest I do in terms of cardio, knowing what I want to achieve?

 

[Daisy_Girl]

I would ditch the 5x a week of moderate cardio.

I would change it to 3x a week HIIT (30min), 2x steady state cardio (45min).

 

[musclegirl28]

Thanks daisy girl, I'll try that... what type of exercise would you think is good?
Could I do the HIIT on the stationary bike? (the reason why i prefer stationary bike is because I own one... so I hit it first thing in the morning... )