Question about exercise selection on Matt Reynolds DFHT

[SDHW]

Hey bros,

I was doing some research on the DFHT and it led me here so I thought I would post this up.

I have just a few questions to as why some of the exercises in the program are used. and also I have some questions on the loading and unloading weeks.

-In the fist workout why do we do dumbbell press right after we do barbell press? isnt that hitting the same thing?

-On the second upper body workout why do we do board press? is there any other alternative for this?

-Can each day be done within an hour?

-Does each exercise need to be done in the order that I have seen on this site?

-Is there any place for power cleans in this program?

-Im looking at the program to first produce Hypertrophy, and second strength. Should I start with 4 wks loading and 1 week unloading, and continue with that? How do we fine-tune the loading and unloading parts? How do we know that we have unloaded enough?

-And last but not least, is this program good for people who use AAS, im assuming yes. but would there be any modifications to the program if you were using AAS?

Thanks for all the help and info.

 

[SDHW]

bump

 

[Protobuilder]

I can't help you. You should go to bodybuilding .net and ask 0311. he's a mod there w/ a lot of experience w/ DFHT and he's doing personal training (online) w/ Matt. Or you could ask Matt directly. He's online on several places and has his email posted. Rumor has it, his online training is great and inexpensive. Good guy.

 

[SDHW]

I can't help you. You should go to bodybuilding .net and ask 0311. he's a mod there w/ a lot of experience w/ DFHT and he's doing personal training (online) w/ Matt. Or you could ask Matt directly. He's online on several places and has his email posted. Rumor has it, his online training is great and inexpensive. Good guy.

Thanks for the info bro

 

[Neo22]

Hey bros,

I was doing some research on the DFHT and it led me here so I thought I would post this up.

I have just a few questions to as why some of the exercises in the program are used. and also I have some questions on the loading and unloading weeks.

-In the fist workout why do we do dumbbell press right after we do barbell press? isnt that hitting the same thing?

-On the second upper body workout why do we do board press? is there any other alternative for this?

-Can each day be done within an hour?

-Does each exercise need to be done in the order that I have seen on this site?

-Is there any place for power cleans in this program?

-Im looking at the program to first produce Hypertrophy, and second strength. Should I start with 4 wks loading and 1 week unloading, and continue with that? How do we fine-tune the loading and unloading parts? How do we know that we have unloaded enough?

-And last but not least, is this program good for people who use AAS, im assuming yes. but would there be any modifications to the program if you were using AAS?

Thanks for all the help and info.

I started the program a while ago. I have a hard time finishing anything in under an hour. Do incline press after the flat BB. I change up my order as it doesn't matter. I do back/chest/shoulders. Cleans I would do on upper body but they have it on lower. I may go back to a bodybuilding split bc I don't feel I'm doing enough.

 

[Protobuilder]

I may go back to a bodybuilding split bc I don't feel I'm doing enough.

Holy crap. I know enough about the program to know that, unless you're someone who's unusually adapted to huge amounts of volume, running DFHT for a while will provide more than enough "work." And it's better than a Flex BB'ing split. Do yourself a favor and trust the program, run it for awhile (if you're even at the level where you need a dual factor approach, which you're probably not), eat, and see if you like what you see.

 

[blut wump]

If you're not getting enough work in then concentrate a shade more on increasing the weights you're using. If that's not possible due to approaching failure then try to add one more set to the prime movers such as squats, deads, bench, OHP, rows. Your stamina will be eaten into eventually.

Gear will aid recovery. It will allow you to work harder and reduce the time between sets should you wish to. It will also reduce the time you require to deload.

You'll be able to estimate when you've deloaded by a restored vigour in the gym and a feeling that you are again able to make progress on your lifts. If you misjudge it, then your next loading phase will simply get shortened as you run out of steam sooner than expected. Everyone is different and so you just have to experiment until you find your own tolerances to high workload.

 

[fortunatesun]

I should be able to answer some of your questions...

If you're referring to the military then dumbell overhead press then yes, they are very similar. Barbell vs. dumbell alters the effect of course due to differences in stability and plane of travel. You're only doing a total of 5 sets for both presses which is a normal amount of pressing. My suggestion would be to try it their way so you get an idea what happens. If one seems more effective than the other, you may want to just go with that one. Or, you could do one this first cycle, and the other your next cycle. This may be the better idea as it's good to have a familiarity with both. And you can switch up seating and standing versions as well.

Board press is a partial range of motion exercise designed to make your overall bench stronger. It goes anywhere from 1 board to 5 board. If you have a sticking point, touching the bar to that point and then reversing the weight back up will help make that range stronger. All of them, esp. 4&5 will help with lockout-being able to totally extend your arms with the weight under control. This is necessary for the lift to be judged a good one.
No, it's not mandatory that you do this exercise. As with all the exercises, including those presses, nothing is written in stone. The recommended exercises cover the basics of what you should be doing. If you understand why they are recommended but have an alternative you find more effective, you can feel free to substitute. Alternatives might be floor press, rack lockout, seated press off pins, etc.

How long it takes depends on the individual. Also, some days you just don't have as much energy as others.

As for progression,again it's not mandatory, but with any well constructed program there's been alot of thought given to this aspect. Major bodyparts first using compound movements because they are the major mass builders and require the most energy. Then other movements which synergize with the first ones. Finally, the isolation exercises which aren't as dependant on the first ones. I strongly recommend you stick with the order at least the first couple cycles until you gain an intuitive understanding of what is happening as you exercise. If you still feel it's wrong for you, it doesn't hurt to try a different order. You can always change back.

Cleans are listed on lower body days because they involve pulling from the floor, which involves a good deal of overlap in terms of muscle recruitment with your leg work, esp. regarding your posterior chain and lower back.

Fine- tuning the length of your cycle and deloading comes with experience and may have different values for growth and strength cycles. The given times are norms so it's a good place to start.

Gear doesn't do the lifting for you, that's still your job. The basics of your program will be the same. It may help with recovery, but gear + half-a$$ed program (or half-a$$ed effort) will equal waste of time.

 

[Neo22]

Holy crap. I know enough about the program to know that, unless you're someone who's unusually adapted to huge amounts of volume, running DFHT for a while will provide more than enough "work." And it's better than a Flex BB'ing split. Do yourself a favor and trust the program, run it for awhile (if you're even at the level where you need a dual factor approach, which you're probably not), eat, and see if you like what you see.

Who are you to say what level I'm at LOL. I've been doing BB splits with insanely high volume and intensity for the last 3 years.

 

[Neo22]

If you're not getting enough work in then concentrate a shade more on increasing the weights you're using. If that's not possible due to approaching failure then try to add one more set to the prime movers such as squats, deads, bench, OHP, rows. Your stamina will be eaten into eventually.

Gear will aid recovery. It will allow you to work harder and reduce the time between sets should you wish to. It will also reduce the time you require to deload.

You'll be able to estimate when you've deloaded by a restored vigour in the gym and a feeling that you are again able to make progress on your lifts. If you misjudge it, then your next loading phase will simply get shortened as you run out of steam sooner than expected. Everyone is different and so you just have to experiment until you find your own tolerances to high workload.

What I meant was after only doing 2 pressing movements for chest and only doing 2 pulling movements for back I don't feel like I've accomplished a damn thing. As with a BB split I was fatiguing the living shit out of the muscle with usually 4-5 diff movements per bodypart. I'm not using gear and don't plan on it.

 

[blut wump]

The original poster asked about gear. As you already know, it's certainly not necessary, neither for growth nor strength.

Many of us here have switched away from BB-type splits from where we were accustomed to blasting a muscle into submission. All I can really suggest is that the fact that those here have stayed with progression and increased frequency in itself is testament to the fact that this style of working out does work.

My own attitude to it when I began was that it's worth two or three months to see what happens. You overall goal becomes to make progress in the lifts. Your conditionng to work actually increases due to the fact that the muscles are hit more often and you'll find yourself aching a lot less. This isn't due to doing less work, it's due to having an improved work capacity.

If you look at all the work you do through the week, in terms of workload and ignoring the 'foo-foo' exercises, you'll probably find that the DFHT has a greater requirement of you than your old BB-style split.

 

[Neo22]

The original poster asked about gear. As you already know, it's certainly not necessary, neither for growth nor strength.

Many of us here have switched away from BB-type splits from where we were accustomed to blasting a muscle into submission. All I can really suggest is that the fact that those here have stayed with progression and increased frequency in itself is testament to the fact that this style of working out does work.

My own attitude to it when I began was that it's worth two or three months to see what happens. You overall goal becomes to make progress in the lifts. Your conditionng to work actually increases due to the fact that the muscles are hit more often and you'll find yourself aching a lot less. This isn't due to doing less work, it's due to having an improved work capacity.

If you look at all the work you do through the week, in terms of workload and ignoring the 'foo-foo' exercises, you'll probably find that the DFHT has a greater requirement of you than your old BB-style split.

Since I'm bulking right now I need to get this split right. I have a show I'm doing in march so I need to get it right. I guess the matter is I haven't seen any really big guys doing the DFHT split. Strength doesn't always correlate to hypertrophy either. Thats why a lot of super strong olympic lifters are not by any means big. I'm doing a heavy upper and lower at beginning of the week reps of 6 and more hypertrophy based at the end of the end. But the thing is, doing 3 major bodyparts on one day keeps me in the gym forever. I can't neglect little things like the lateral head or the rear delt on my shoulders either. Thats another reason I'm not too fond of the split.

 

[blut wump]

At some stage you have to ask yourself how much you're going to allow symmetrical and concurrent development of the various heads of your delts to hold back your overall development.

How long does it typically take you to apply some direct work to finer points to bring them up to scratch as compared with the amount of time it takes to build bulk across the entire physique? You have seven months to build some mass and refine it. Don't begin with worrying about refinement.

 

[Neo22]

How long does it typically take you to apply some direct work to finer points to bring them up to scratch as compared with the amount of time it takes to build bulk across the entire physique? You have seven months to build some mass and refine it. Don't begin with worrying about refinement.

Thats the thing. I don't konw how long it would take. Its mainly bc I don't know how to feel my body. I've never been really good at putting on size. I went from 165-194 in about a 6 month time period doing 1 bodypart a week but then again it was after surgery so i hadn't touched weights in months prior before I started.

 

[BiggT]

Neo, generally, with most people, it is relatively easy to refine a weak point......typically the precontest diet does wonders as far as the illusion of "shaping", but if something is lacking detail, it is typically, in most cases, much easier to remedy lack of detail than it is lack of size.......You can't carve a pebble as the saying goes.

In my opinion, it is much more efficient to spend ALL of your energy inproving compound lifts in that 5-8 rep range and eat more calories than you burn right up until the very last day of the bulking diet.....I find this to be responsible for about 99% of progress, while that insignificant 1% (specific 'routines', isolation, finding a magic supplement or trace mineral, finding a magic exercise, points, angles, or planes of motion) is what people fixate on because it is just hard and plain old unsexy, lol, to believe that most of your results are the result of simple progression on compound lifts and just eating more calories than you burn daily.

If a "BB Split" gave you results without MASSIVE doses of drugs and ancillaries, I can 100% guarantee you it is because you got better at what counts and ate enough, NOT because you did reverse pec deck at a 3-0-3 cadence unilaterally.

Again, man.....you can only carve a boulder, not a pebble.....tackle the big 99% of this.....and IF (and this is a big if) there is an imbalance come the precontest diet, it will be much easier to remedy it with some iso fluff than it will to be 6 weeks out without nearly enough muscle to stand on stage because you were too busy worrying about the balance of the right inner pec to the left instead of just piling weight on the bar each week and doing more and more work when you were eating caloric excess, once the diet starts, you're done growing, so you better have all the muscle you'll need.

 

[Neo22]

Neo, generally, with most people, it is relatively easy to refine a weak point......typically the precontest diet does wonders as far as the illusion of "shaping", but if something is lacking detail, it is typically, in most cases, much easier to remedy lack of detail than it is lack of size.......You can't carve a pebble as the saying goes.

In my opinion, it is much more efficient to spend ALL of your energy inproving compound lifts in that 5-8 rep range and eat more calories than you burn right up until the very last day of the bulking diet.....I find this to be responsible for about 99% of progress, while that insignificant 1% (specific 'routines', isolation, finding a magic supplement or trace mineral, finding a magic exercise, points, angles, or planes of motion) is what people fixate on because it is just hard and plain old unsexy, lol, to believe that most of your results are the result of simple progression on compound lifts and just eating more calories than you burn daily.

If a "BB Split" gave you results without MASSIVE doses of drugs and ancillaries, I can 100% guarantee you it is because you got better at what counts and ate enough, NOT because you did reverse pec deck at a 3-0-3 cadence unilaterally.

Again, man.....you can only carve a boulder, not a pebble.....tackle the big 99% of this.....and IF (and this is a big if) there is an imbalance come the precontest diet, it will be much easier to remedy it with some iso fluff than it will to be 6 weeks out without nearly enough muscle to stand on stage because you were too busy worrying about the balance of the right inner pec to the left instead of just piling weight on the bar each week and doing more and more work when you were eating caloric excess, once the diet starts, you're done growing, so you better have all the muscle you'll need.

So would you suggest I stick with this 2x a week split? THe guy that would train me is so set on a bb split bc its what he does. He was saying that 2x a week will bring out hardness but wont give time to recover. Again he's an npc bb but I know he has good genetics and does a good amount of aas.

 

[fortunatesun]

So would you suggest I stick with this 2x a week split? The guy that would train me is so set on a bb split bc its what he does. He was saying that 2x a week will bring out hardness but wont give time to recover. Again he's an npc bb but I know he has good genetics and does a good amount of aas.

Neo, that's just a difficult question to answer. There's no single theory of bodybuilding that will always be best. If you've been doing splits for the past three years and you feel that they will take you where you want to go, then that's what you should do.
IMHO, there may be good justification for this program at this time- you're going for mass, not definition, as biggt said. I think most everyone agrees that means heavy, compound lifting as a cornerstone. You're still getting your other work in, but you are prioritizing those exercizes that build mass. You are also getting the added benefit of better all round conditioning. It's been my experience (i don't want to generalize) that detail just comes in faster this way due to higher general fitness and a good base to work from.
Workload can also be a function of intensity: quality not quantity. People like Yates built their physiques this way, giving their all for a relatively smaller number of sets. I think one of the reasons you don't find this as exhausting as your old split is that the workload is new, you're not pounding it the same way you have been for years now so your neuromuscular response is fresher.
The same thing applies for recovery time. While 72 hrs. is generally considered the optimal minimum (except for certain high voume Russian programs) both theories rely on timing to make them work. The dual factor principal looks at recovery in regards to the organic whole, or total mass fatigued , thus the deload to regroup, rather than by individual muscle stress.
Whichever way you go, best of luck in March.

 

[BiggT]

Yeah, Neo, it is impossible to say training 'x' times per week is overtraining or undertraining or does this or does that, it is all 'bodybuilding' myth, voo-doo, and bullshit.

At the risk of being banned around these parts, lol, I will go out and say a 'BB split' CAN work if organized correctly and centered around progression. However, training frequently will not be 'overtraining' when managed properly. Again, you need to look at a trainee, the exercises, and the intensity, you cannot just make a blanket statement like "2 times a week doesn't allow recovery".

There is no BEST way to train, there is a way to train that is as close to optimal as one can hope for a particular individual for a fixed period of time.

If you've never tried a routine where all your energy is devoted into getting good at big lifts, and redundancy/inefficiency (doing rows from 72 different angles, triceps pushdowns with 33 different attachments etc) is eliminated and fluff and iso work kept to a bare minimum, look through Madcow2's site and research dual factor theory as well, take from it what you will. Learn the underlying theory and apply it to what you like to do, thats all training is, an underlying theory, it is not a magic concoction of days/sets/reps/exercises.

When looking at genetics/drugs, keep in mind, many pro BBs routines couldn't slap an ounce of muscle on a teenage boy smack in the middle of puberty.

 

[SDHW]

When looking at genetics/drugs, keep in mind, many pro BBs routines couldn't slap an ounce of muscle on a teenage boy smack in the middle of puberty.

LOL, this is so true, I see it all the time in the gym, the teens come in with their favorite BB mags, and try to copy the same workout out. I just shake my head.

 

[Neo22]

Yeah, Neo, it is impossible to say training 'x' times per week is overtraining or undertraining or does this or does that, it is all 'bodybuilding' myth, voo-doo, and bullshit.

At the risk of being banned around these parts, lol, I will go out and say a 'BB split' CAN work if organized correctly and centered around progression. However, training frequently will not be 'overtraining' when managed properly. Again, you need to look at a trainee, the exercises, and the intensity, you cannot just make a blanket statement like "2 times a week doesn't allow recovery".

There is no BEST way to train, there is a way to train that is as close to optimal as one can hope for a particular individual for a fixed period of time.

If you've never tried a routine where all your energy is devoted into getting good at big lifts, and redundancy/inefficiency (doing rows from 72 different angles, triceps pushdowns with 33 different attachments etc) is eliminated and fluff and iso work kept to a bare minimum, look through Madcow2's site and research dual factor theory as well, take from it what you will. Learn the underlying theory and apply it to what you like to do, thats all training is, an underlying theory, it is not a magic concoction of days/sets/reps/exercises.

When looking at genetics/drugs, keep in mind, many pro BBs routines couldn't slap an ounce of muscle on a teenage boy smack in the middle of puberty.

heres what the old BB split did look like fyi

MOnday
Back
deadlifts 4x6 going up to a 3rm
Pullups
db rows
pulldowns

Chest
Flat BB 5x5 or 4x6
Incline db 3x6
2 diff exercises for crossovers
dips

Off

Thurs
Legs
Squats 4x6 or 3x8
Leg press 4x10
Stiff Leg Deadlifts 4x6 or 3x8
GHR's or Reverse Hypers

Friday
Shoulders
Push press 4x6
Hang cleans 3x8
Standing side laterals 3x8
Reverse peck deck 3x8
BB shrugs

oFf
off

 

[BiggT]

Neo, that's a great looking split......and has nowhere near the fluff and excess crap I was expecting it to have, lol, it is organized around big lifts and improving them, and it is no wonder you did well on it......personally, I like it, again, I am a big believer that any routine is just a snap-shot in time so to speak, and what is optimal during one point, won't be during another......but on paper, I like that a lot.

At some point, more frequency serves the big lifts well, at other points, less frequency and peaking them is good.....to be honest, as long as the bench, push press, squats, and deadlifts are going up, the 'routine' is irrelevant, it is just a means to an end.

 

[blut wump]

Agreed, that's one of the best splits to pop up on here as a split routine.

When it comes down to it, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with working body parts once per week. It's just that it's considered more efficient to increase the frequency on the major lifts.

 

[Neo22]

Agreed, that's one of the best splits to pop up on here as a split routine.

When it comes down to it, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with working body parts once per week. It's just that it's considered more efficient to increase the frequency on the major lifts.

The only reason I thought about changing it was bc I keep recently reading you need to hit the bodyparts twice a week. I've always done mainly compound movements with heavy weight and not tricep pushdowns. For triceps I usually do a lot of close grip bench and dips. If you guys think my split is fine I can stick with it and just keep adding weight.

 

[BiggT]

Neo, don't fix what isn't broken. You don't need to 'hit' bodyparts x times a week.....you just need to organize your training to foster progression on what counts.....frequency is a great way to train 'lifts', it isn't the only way. If you are progressing, keep doing what you're doing until you no longer progress, at that point, a change to more frequency to load may be good, then yu can reduce the frequency when you begin feeling run down......but honestly, I like that routine you posted a lot.....if it is doing it's job, don't change it.

I posted that long post yesterday, and I think some of the other replies were what they were because nobody was expecting your training to look that good. Not a slam against you personally, but I have spent a fair amoun of time on discussion boards, and MOST of the time when somebody is talking "BB Splits" and voicing symmetry comcerns, their routine is an inefficient curl and pressdown fest cluttered with iso-fluff and no plan for progression........I think you've got a great handle on this and I am not surprised you've made great gains over the years.

 

[blut wump]

Agreed, and I apologise if my post seemed a little brusque.

 

[Tweakle]

the argument made for increased frequency systems is they allow you to get more productive workouts in a set period of time. If you train each 'bodypart' once a week that's only 52 workouts at best a year, vs 70+ sessions a year if you train on a more frequent split.

The problem is that if you have shitty recovery (relative to the poundages you lift) and can't progress without taking extra days off here & there, or have to deload every few weeks to keep things rolling, then you end up with pretty much the same total number of workouts in a set time period that someone doing a m/w/f split would get in. I LOVE the upper/lower or legs+pulling/pushing splits, but have to alternate them with periods of once-a-week training to avoid burning out.

 

[Neo22]

the argument made for increased frequency systems is they allow you to get more productive workouts in a set period of time. If you train each 'bodypart' once a week that's only 52 workouts at best a year, vs 70+ sessions a year if you train on a more frequent split.

The problem is that if you have shitty recovery (relative to the poundages you lift) and can't progress without taking extra days off here & there, or have to deload every few weeks to keep things rolling, then you end up with pretty much the same total number of workouts in a set time period that someone doing a m/w/f split would get in. I LOVE the upper/lower or legs+pulling/pushing splits, but have to alternate them with periods of once-a-week training to avoid burning out.

dont you mean 104?

 

[Tweakle]

not for me, I'd prefer anyone using a DC style split where everything gets hit every 10 days as opposed to twice a week.. not that twice a week doesn't work for people with great recovery abilities, but imo it's too much for joe-average (once the weights get up there of course)

 

[Neo22]

not for me, I'd prefer anyone using a DC style split where everything gets hit every 10 days as opposed to twice a week.. not that twice a week doesn't work for people with great recovery abilities, but imo it's too much for joe-average (once the weights get up there of course)

whats a dc split? I have never heard of it.

 

[blut wump]

Do a Google for Dogg Crap

 

[SDHW]

I have really looking into the loading and unloading weeks of this program, just to get a good understanding, and so I can implement it right.

I have been reading example of, 3wks loading/overreaching, and 1 wk unloading (where volume and intensity is cut). Then you repeat.

but then i was reading that if you go 3wks loading, and 1wk unloading, the following 3 wks, should be less volume, and high intensity, and this is the time to make new PR's???

I thought it just went balls to the wall for 3 wks, take a break for a wk, and repeat.

am I missing something?

if anyone can explain that would help

 

[Madcow2]

The problem is that if you have shitty recovery (relative to the poundages you lift) and can't progress without taking extra days off here & there, or have to deload every few weeks to keep things rolling, then you end up with pretty much the same total number of workouts in a set time period that someone doing a m/w/f split would get in.

Although that seems to happen a good bit, it honestly should not be true. If, and this is a big IF, people dial in the workload to their tolerances correctly they shouldn't be bombing or struggling left and right trying to get enough recovery to make it through a program that is simply too much for them. The difference in the recovery/decay rate should be more than enough for someone at any level regardless of ability to recover to wind up with significantly higher average workload than a linear program. Now the required disclaimer to avoid the 14 year old kid with bowflex stepping in shit, work is a means to an end and not an end in itself so if people can keep fatigue low enough to run linearly for long periods and make constant gains, they should.

But most of the people blowing this or struggling are simply saddled with an inappropriate program that they are trying to make it though (probably a cookie cutter) and generally seem to be new to this type of organization in general - I'd imagine it's uncoached rec lifters much like this board who are just trying this stuff out and trying to get a feel. Hopefully they learn and scale accordingly. But really, someone experienced or under good coaching will get this dialed in very quickly - there's still some art and judgement to it but it's not hard. Actually some of Glenn Pendlay's research is specificly tied to hormonal fluctuations in training. I haven't read it but there is more out there (I think his friend Mike Hartman presented some info on the same topic a while back) and the jist of it is to arrive at a more accurate appraisal of the condition of the athlete in this circumstance than just pure judgement and feel. Pretty cool stuff actually and those involved seem to believe it is very promising and works well.

 

[Protobuilder]

I thought it just went balls to the wall for 3 wks, take a break for a wk, and repeat.

am I missing something?

Yes. It's called DUAL FACTOR hypertrophy training for a reason. I'd suggest reading up on "dual factor" theory. There should be some writing on Madcow's site (check the training vault sticky). Long story short, the dual factor approach looks at fitness and fatigue as two separate elements. You build fitness and fatigue at the same time through the first 4 weeks of the program (or however long it designates). Then, you back off and go into a "peaking" or "intensity" phase, where you cut volume and allow the fatigue to dissipate. This allows you to 'express' or demonstrate the newfound strength you've built during the build-up/volume phase. IOW, while you're pushing yourself really hard for several weeks, you're building fitness but you're fatigued as well so you can't really "demonstrate" your new strength. Then, you take it easy, go into a peaking phase, and the fatigue goes away and boom, your strength goes up. It's a pretty basic peaking strategy that many athletic training programs seem to use (e.g., S&C, oly trainers).

In sum: work hard, get tired, take a break, show off your new strength.

 

[SDHW]

Yes. It's called DUAL FACTOR hypertrophy training for a reason. I'd suggest reading up on "dual factor" theory. There should be some writing on Madcow's site (check the training vault sticky). Long story short, the dual factor approach looks at fitness and fatigue as two separate elements. You build fitness and fatigue at the same time through the first 4 weeks of the program (or however long it designates). Then, you back off and go into a "peaking" or "intensity" phase, where you cut volume and allow the fatigue to dissipate. This allows you to 'express' or demonstrate the newfound strength you've built during the build-up/volume phase. IOW, while you're pushing yourself really hard for several weeks, you're building fitness but you're fatigued as well so you can't really "demonstrate" your new strength. Then, you take it easy, go into a peaking phase, and the fatigue goes away and boom, your strength goes up. It's a pretty basic peaking strategy that many athletic training programs seem to use (e.g., S&C, oly trainers). In sum: work hard, get tired, take a break, show off your new strength.

I understand the DUAL FACTOR part, if you re read what you wrote, and read my question, you are re-stating what i was saying....

Its kinda what I said right... "balls to the wall" aka loading, then cut volume ie: break/unloading. and the repeat.

BUT...I have read, that some people load for x weeks, then unload for x wks, and then for the next x weeks, they use high intensity, but keep volume still low. to set new PR's. then you can start back over again.

so let me give some examples just to make sure its clear.

Example 1
Load for 3 weeks, unload for 1 week, and repeat
here we load or build up for 3 weeks, volume and intensity is high, then we back off both intensity and volume for a week to allow recovery.

Example 2
Load for 3 weeks; unload for 1 week, high intensity, low volume for 3 weeks, repeat
here we load up for 3 weeks, volume and intensity is high, then we back off both intensity and volume to allow recovery, then we go into a high intensity, low volume to set net PR's where you can demonstrate your new strength.

So which one is correct, i have read both....

 

[Madcow2]

There are multiple applications. It also needn't be 3 weeks. This comes mainly from the difference in decay factors between fitness and fatigue being 3:1. Shit, if you raise the volume enough even 1 week will drop you, lower it down and maybe you last for 6 weeks. It's not set in stone, the idea is just that workload is higher than would be tolerable infinitely (i.e. fatigue accrual) and then obviously followed by some period of lower work (fatigue disipation). Now maybe this is for enough recovery to get back and pound again ASAP, maybe it's for a big peak and a competition further out. Maybe intensity would be high and scaling while workload was low, or maybe everything would drop. Depends on what you need and what the goal is. This is a pretty good read to get the mind going on the possibilities: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/48-post3.html

Generally when you talk about heavy loading or peak loading - most people won't be handling 3 weeks of it. The way I generally tell people to set up the 5x5 entails maybe 1 week of heavier loading with most being more moderate but still somewhat fatiguing.

Also, if you are using the DFHT word doc from my site - there's a scaled down version floating around somewhere. Just do a search. The one in the word doc is really quite a bit of volume especially if you don't know what you are doing and have never done anything like this before.

 

[BiggT]

They're both correct.....it depends on the trainee and what they are trying to accomplish....the first doesn't allow much time to peak and show off the new strength, but it good for building more strength by going into another volume phase....the second allows a time for hitting big PRs and really peaking strength.

You can load for 2 weeks, unload for 1, load again for 2......it is kind of like a set, you define how long a set is b yhow many reps you choose to do.

 

[BiggT]

I didnt see madcows post, or I wouldn't have bothered.....his is the more detailed post.....but basically there is no right "way" to do this

 

[fortunatesun]

The advantage of lowering volume and upping weight lies in it's effect on the central nervous system- CNS. Asking it to handle a heavier workload shocks it into an acclimation process: it learns what must be done in order to facilitate the lifting of poundage heavier than you have been using, setting the stage for further increases in strength. This idea is more popular with powerlifters as they are primarily interested in increasing their maximum lift.
For bodybuilders it lacks some of the immediate feedback of repetition training which is intended to induce hypertrophy. On the plus side, being able to lift heavier will in turn make you larger, not to mention it's just more fun to be able to put more plates on the bar. So the overall idea then is one serves as a synergist to the other.
As madcow pointed out, this isn't to be looked at as some sort of directive from on high. Your goals and individual physiological response need to be factored in. The more gradual increase of your first example might prove more useful. You can also run a program that cycles 2:1 or one that goes 4-5 months one way then a solid run at the other for 4-8 weeks before returning to the first way.

 

[blut wump]

The dual factor part is simply the loading and deloading.

If you move onto higher intensity / lower-volume workouts after your deload then you can think of it as dual-factor-dual-phase. The dual factor part being loading and deloading. The dual phase being low intensity with high volume then low volume with high intensity. You can get loaded on high intensity low volume workouts.

As BiggT mentioned, there's nothing wrong with sticking with high volume phases and just running load-deload-load-deload. Eventually, you'll likely need to take a break and have an extended deload which is usually a good time to move over to high intensity for a while.

Note that the deloading phases typically don't deload you fully, just enough to dive back in again. Most functioning athletes carry fatigue around with them most of the time. To make a full deload can take around a month from what I've read.

 

[SDHW]

Thanks for all the advice, I have a better under standing, I think im gonna sitck with 3 weeks load, and 1 week unload, just to make it nice 4 week/month blocks, I will adjust as needed. I like the idea of the planned unloading, as I tend to just go balls to the wall all the time. And I think it can be counter productive at times.

I think im gonna stick with Matt’s DFHT 4 day program for a 6months or so, and maybe change up to the 5x5, I do like how the Matt’s program includes some of the 5x5. so it should be a good run. And his new version has a good amount of volume

Just to give a heads up on my goals, and i might start a journal, Im 25, 6ft tall, and looking to get back on the football field. I play at the semi-pro level, and have been out for 2 yrs, due to knee injures. etc. I still have the itch to play, and im sure i always will. so I have from now to June of 07, I have been lifting since I was 12yrs, old, and started out as a powerlifter, and then due to injures, I slowly maid my way to somewhat bodybuilding, I figured if I couldn’t play, I should at least look good, but its time to step away from all that fluff stuff, and go back to the basics. I was 275 at my highest point, and I feel that was just too heavy, and im sure I wouldn’t be an effective linebacker at 275lbs..lol.
im 255lbs now, im about 18% bf, so I would like to get around the 240-250lbs at 10%, but also make sure my 40yrd speed is back to 4.6..
so I want to add some strength, and lean muscle, but also make the transition in the explosive/ power work.

 

[SDHW]

also, why is there two chest exercises, and only one back exercises for the upper body day?

 

[BiggT]

I hope you start a journal.....we're the exact same size for the most part, I'd love to follow along.

As far as your question about exercise selection......when getting out of the mindset of "BB Training", what you have to do is stop thinking 'bodyparts' and start thinking 'movements'.....you can tailor something to yourself.....say your bench is 405, but you can only row 250x5 and you want to bring your back strength up for example......again, at your level, the 'generic' template is just a guidline, grasp the theory and then apply it to something that you customize for you.

 

[Neo22]

As far as your question about exercise selection......when getting out of the mindset of "BB Training", what you have to do is stop thinking 'bodyparts' and start thinking 'movements'.....you can tailor something to yourself.....say your bench is 405, but you can only row 250x5 and you want to bring your back strength up for example......again, at your level, the 'generic' template is just a guidline, grasp the theory and then apply it to something that you customize for you.

I don't have a clue what you mean here. On upper body days you have 3 pressing movement and one rowing movement. I will ask for your opinion though, for bodybuilding purposes do you think this split will work better than the other routine I had posted as long as weights are going up?

 

[BiggT]

I don't have a clue what you mean here. On upper body days you have 3 pressing movement and one rowing movement. I will ask for your opinion though, for bodybuilding purposes do you think this split will work better than the other routine I had posted as long as weights are going up?

It's impossible to say something will work 'better' or 'worse' than something else, as long as they are both centered around progress. DFHT is a solid routine centered around progress.....the routine you posted is a solid routine centered around progress.....both are much, much better than 99% of the garbage people do in the gym and all the so-called 'bodybuilding routines' out there.

I'd look at it this way.....all a 'routine' is, is a way to organize your training so that you foster progress......look at each routine and look at yourself, and decide on whatever one you think will keep you the most consistent and allow you to keep upping the lifts and progressing. When looking at any good, solid routine, there is no magic, the ONLY key is progress......I think both routines would work great for 99% of the population for a fixed period of time, when you stall out or begin to stall out, don't overhaul and do a 'new routine'.....but take the principles behind what you're doing and use it to make adjustment, and that will be your new routine for the next temporary period.......as long as what you do fosters progress, there is your routine.....calling something a 'program' or 'routine' is just a way to neatly package it.

 

[Neo22]

It's impossible to say something will work 'better' or 'worse' than something else, as long as they are both centered around progress. DFHT is a solid routine centered around progress.....the routine you posted is a solid routine centered around progress.....both are much, much better than 99% of the garbage people do in the gym and all the so-called 'bodybuilding routines' out there.

I'd look at it this way.....all a 'routine' is, is a way to organize your training so that you foster progress......look at each routine and look at yourself, and decide on whatever one you think will keep you the most consistent and allow you to keep upping the lifts and progressing. When looking at any good, solid routine, there is no magic, the ONLY key is progress......I think both routines would work great for 99% of the population for a fixed period of time, when you stall out or begin to stall out, don't overhaul and do a 'new routine'.....but take the principles behind what you're doing and use it to make adjustment, and that will be your new routine for the next temporary period.......as long as what you do fosters progress, there is your routine.....calling something a 'program' or 'routine' is just a way to neatly package it.

I see what you're saying, and I really liked my old split. I just wasn't progressing on it, maybe it was due to frequency or maybe it wasn't I'm not for sure.

 

[BiggT]

Well, how far did you progress with it until you stopped?.....and what in particular got stuck and at what set/rep ranges did u get stuck? What were your goals? If mass was one, were you eating enough to move the scale up about 1lb a week?

With some more info....I could suggest some adjustments to get you progressing for the next 4 week block or so, then when you slow down, you can see what I did and make some more tweaks.....it isn't routine overhaul and doing a 'new program', it is making changes here and there to get past a road block.

 

[Neo22]

Well, how far did you progress with it until you stopped?.....and what in particular got stuck and at what set/rep ranges did u get stuck? What were your goals? If mass was one, were you eating enough to move the scale up about 1lb a week?

With some more info....I could suggest some adjustments to get you progressing for the next 4 week block or so, then when you slow down, you can see what I did and make some more tweaks.....it isn't routine overhaul and doing a 'new program', it is making changes here and there to get past a road block.

Got to where I was repping 315 on deads for 12 or more. Bench had never done flat BB but with db's was repping the 100's for 6. Then squats was up to 275x6. I wasn't seen muscle growth and it seems even adding more cals I was just gaining fat.

 

[BiggT]

You need to look at where you're stuck and make the adjustments.....deadlift is easy, DROP those reps, man....try triples or 5's and you'll see a lot of progress out of them, I guarantee.

Swap a main lift for the upper body, instead of flat D-Bell, train for a big incline barbell or flat barbell in the 4-6 range, on squats, I'd have to see your whole layout, but most likely, you could scale back 25lbs for 6, then add 10lbs a week for 4 weeks and most likely hit a 15lb PR......just something along those lines.

 

[Neo22]

You need to look at where you're stuck and make the adjustments.....deadlift is easy, DROP those reps, man....try triples or 5's and you'll see a lot of progress out of them, I guarantee.

Swap a main lift for the upper body, instead of flat D-Bell, train for a big incline barbell or flat barbell in the 4-6 range, on squats, I'd have to see your whole layout, but most likely, you could scale back 25lbs for 6, then add 10lbs a week for 4 weeks and most likely hit a 15lb PR......just something along those lines.

Here was the leg routine
warmup
squats 8,8,8,6
leg press 12,10,10,10
sldl 8,8,8,6

 

[BiggT]

Neo, what I would do is warm up with something that you don't count, maybe 135x10....then 185x6, 205x6, 215x6, 235x6, 205x10 to finish off......the next week finish with 250x6, then the next finish at 265x6, then 280x6 the next, then go for a new PR every week making 5lb jumps until you start to stall out.....increase the backoff set each week too. After squats, I'd SLDL for 4 sets of 8.....then finish off on the leg press for 4 sets of 8.

 

[Neo22]

Neo, what I would do is warm up with something that you don't count, maybe 135x10....then 185x6, 205x6, 215x6, 235x6, 205x10 to finish off......the next week finish with 250x6, then the next finish at 265x6, then 280x6 the next, then go for a new PR every week making 5lb jumps until you start to stall out.....increase the backoff set each week too. After squats, I'd SLDL for 4 sets of 8.....then finish off on the leg press for 4 sets of 8.

i warmpu with 135x10, then i do 185x6, then 225x6 then do working sets usually.

 

[BiggT]

That was just an off the top of my head example.....what is important if you're stalled is to take a little weight off the top end sets to ensure you nail every rep, then hold reps constant every week and add week each week, setting it up so you PR on week 3 or 4 and then try to keep adding to that and string along a nice little run of PRs before you have to backoff again..........I really like your exercise selection....you're high on quality and low on fluff, I think you just need to handle fatigue and hitting sticking points a little differently (just back off and re-ramp, OR tweak exercises and rep ranges, rather than get frustrated and doubt yourself and look for a new 'program').

 

[Neo22]

That was just an off the top of my head example.....what is important if you're stalled is to take a little weight off the top end sets to ensure you nail every rep, then hold reps constant every week and add week each week, setting it up so you PR on week 3 or 4 and then try to keep adding to that and string along a nice little run of PRs before you have to backoff again..........I really like your exercise selection....you're high on quality and low on fluff, I think you just need to handle fatigue and hitting sticking points a little differently (just back off and re-ramp, OR tweak exercises and rep ranges, rather than get frustrated and doubt yourself and look for a new 'program').

thanks for the help bro!

 

[Tweakle]

like MrT says the generic routine is just a guideline.. for pulling / pushing it would make sense to have an equal number of exercises in the same planes (shoulder press/chin and bench/row) imo.. I also don't like to treat deads or shrugs as a 'pulling' exercise as they don't involve shoulder retraction.