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Proviron does not hinder hpta recovery

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Juice Authority

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I've been gathering intel from various studies and abstracts on proviron to determine if it is in fact suppressive to hpta recovery. I finally found some relevant data that clearly shows that Proviron taken at low dosages (25-50mg's) ed does not effect plasma FSH, LH and testosterone levels...So, one can conclude from the followng study that Proviron, if taken post-cycle to prevent estrogen rebound should not hinder recovery!

Int Urol Nephrol. 1978;10(3):251-6. Related Articles, Links


Mesterolone treatment of patients with pathospermia.

Szollosi J, Falkay GY, Sas M.

The response to Mesterolone, in doses of 25 mg/day, was examined in 42 pathospermic patients. Treatment lasted for 100 days. The pronounced response to the Mesterolone treatment was observed in hypozoo- and oligozoospermia with low initial fructose content in the ejaculate. Fructose content attained its normal range after the treatment. During the therapeutic period 11 wives became pregnant. The authors conclude that Mesterolone does not influence plasma FSH, LH and testosterone levels, it has only peripheral effects.

PMID: 689818 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
so using it at say 25mg would free up bound test via the SHBG effect, and work as a mild anti-E while being non-suppressive....correct? kind of all the good with no bads. i usually use it during "cruise" sessions inbetween big cycles as opposed to "off-cycle". with anavar and the like. but good info for guys who actually go off. :D
 
Bad Black said:
so using it at say 25mg would free up bound test via the SHBG effect, and work as a mild anti-E while being non-suppressive....correct? kind of all the good with no bads. i usually use it during "cruise" sessions inbetween big cycles as opposed to "off-cycle". with anavar and the like. but good info for guys who actually go off. :D

It'll also help sustain your sex drive and morning wood post-cycle while keeping your estrogen levels in check. Can't beat that.
 
As much as I'm not apt to take the conclusion of one study (or even two or three) as an all out absolute, this does coinside with what my experiences have suggested all along. Proviron is not very inhibitory, making it an excellent conduit from a cycle to going going natural.

Since it also works as an effective anti -e it has several advantages over all other post cycle drugs.


It does not lower FSH (like Clomid)


It does not lower IGF-1 (like nolvadex)


It is not site specific,(like nolva) removing estrogen throughout the body.


It lowers SHBG (which Clomid raises) thereby incresing testosterone.


It is side effect free in the recommended dosages. (i.e. vision disturbances, acne, etc)


It can not lower your e too much (lke A-dex)


SInce it is not an estrogen "blocker" it does not have the possible rebound effect of nolva.


It does not afect mood negitively like Clomid.


It gets you hard as a rock!


It gets you dick hard as a rock!


It really is the best and only logical drug choice.

I predict that within a year, there is going to be a tremendous shift in the post cycle therapy of most steroid users. When the word starts to spread that all they need (assuming cycles aren't totally stupid) is Proviron and some natural herbs and nutrients, everyone is going to wonder why anyone ever took Clomid or Nolvadex.

Okay, now you don't have to read the second chapter of Bottom Line Bodybuilding. :)
 
Nelosn,

I'm trying to gather some data that shows proviron reducing estrogen levels. Do you any reference points for that?
 
Nice to have a study that shows what anecdotal evidence has been indicating for Proviron. 25mg/day seems to be reasonable and relatively inexpensive.
 
To ne hoest, I don't know of any studies of Proviron be used specifically for that purpose, but that's because the drug wasn't designed to lower e. And being an androgen, it would not be used in women.

This has always been my point about using studies or the lack thereof as proof. We have to use some deductve reasoning here. Anabolics 2000. Chemical Muscle Enhancement, W.A.R site not studies on Proviron as an anti e yet each author agress it works as such and I concur. The fact that Proviron acts similarly to DHT automatically makes it an anti -e since DHT can not aromatize. In a way, winstrol is an anti e as well, but no one would ever think of it as such. I know guys that take nlva with a cycle of winny! It's just stupid.
 
My only apprehension about Proviron is, due to its androgenic nature, that it seemingly is pretty rough on the hair... this is further confirmed by some of its users...

Can anyone shed anymore light Proviron with respect to hair loss?
 
One small, but very important distinction here guys. And I am no expert on such things, but really, this is a point to be considered.

There is a difference between:

Something that will NOT shut down or supress a normally functioning HPTA, and

Something that will prevent an abnormally functioning HPTA from recovering.

These are NOT the same phenomena or attributes.

From what I understand (and no, I cant point to studies or references, its just based on my obesrvations and what I have read over several years), Proviron will NOT shut you down if all is Normal and well.

However IF your HPTA is down and you are trying to recover, it will PREVENT recovery from taking place.
 
JibbyJabba said:
My only apprehension about Proviron is, due to its androgenic nature, that it seemingly is pretty rough on the hair... this is further confirmed by some of its users...

Can anyone shed anymore light Proviron with respect to hair loss?

Good question since Proviron is a DHT in many respects, which is hard on the hairline. Nelson?
 
Yeah, it's hard on the hair but I think the role of DHT on hair loss is a little exagerated. If that's all it was, they could find a cure easily. If you have a predisposition to baldness, any androgen is going to exasperate it.

You can always use nizerol and some saw palmetto your scalp to counteract the effects.
 
Riker29 said:
One small, but very important distinction here guys. And I am no expert on such things, but really, this is a point to be considered.

There is a difference between:

Something that will NOT shut down or supress a normally functioning HPTA, and

Something that will prevent an abnormally functioning HPTA from recovering.

These are NOT the same phenomena or attributes.

From what I understand (and no, I cant point to studies or references, its just based on my obesrvations and what I have read over several years), Proviron will NOT shut you down if all is Normal and well.

However IF your HPTA is down and you are trying to recover, it will PREVENT recovery from taking place.

This study would indicate differently...

Int J Gynaecol Obstet 1988 Feb;26(1):121-8 Related Articles, Links


The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.

Varma TR, Patel RH.

Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

PMID: 2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
Nelson Montana said:
Yeah, it's hard on the hair but I think the role of DHT on hair loss is a little exagerated. If that's all it was, they could find a cure easily. If you have a predisposition to baldness, any androgen is going to exasperate it.

You can always use nizerol and some saw palmetto your scalp to counteract the effects.

Did you get my pm?
 
Perfect , Nelson !!!

In my life i did about 8 cycles .
In the first 6 cycles my program of recovery was that stupid classic option with HCG and CLOMID (and/or nolvadex and/or arimidex) and i was never happy with the results... dalayed recovey, limp dick, bad mood , weakness and so on...

In my last two cycles i decided that was time to make a change ... no more clomid, no more nolva ,no more HCG , no more arimidex, just proviron to sustain the androgen level and let the body recover... even though some frinds told me that was a crazy option :" You will crash hard , dumbass!!!" or "This fuck proviron will only shut you down more and delay your recovery"

But the results i got from this were really astonishing !!!
I did not crash ... I handle a very good percent of results i got from the cycle (much more that i handle with the HCG/clomid/nolva) ... I got no sexual problems (my girlfriends loved it) ... No mood changes ...
And no, proviron didn't delayed my recovery cause i stopped it and really feel like i was recuperated my HTPA (morning woods, normal stenght to workout , libido and erectile function okay).

As for hair loss, this is always a big issue since i have strong tendency to MPB , so i keep using nizoral shampoo ED + finasteride 1mg/day and at least for me , i never got sides from finasteride and i used it for 4 years.) My MPB is completely at control , i really do not lose hair during or after cycle with this treatment.

Nelson Montana , thank you all those good info you put here on EF.

I know and always tell that everyone is different but for me this was really a very important thing im my bodybuilding life.
 
Juice Authority said:


This study would indicate differently...


I was not arguing with the study, I was point out an aspect of logical thinking that many guys tend to leap over,

Its like saying "all corvettes are fast cars" does not allow one to conclude that "all fast cars are corvettes".

Many guys wil show a study that says "Proviron won't supress HPTA" and then they leap to a concluson that "Proviron wont prevent HPTA recovery".

Not the same thing.

Yes, you may be correct in this instance, its just that the first study seemed a little bit more geared to saying that it does not supress HPTA, and in my mind, that dos not allow for the leap of logoc that say it wont prevent recovery.
 
Riker29 said:


I was not arguing with the study, I was point out an aspect of logical thinking that many guys tend to leap over,

Its like saying "all corvettes are fast cars" does not allow one to conclude that "all fast cars are corvettes".

Many guys wil show a study that says "Proviron won't supress HPTA" and then they leap to a concluson that "Proviron wont prevent HPTA recovery".

Not the same thing.

Yes, you may be correct in this instance, its just that the first study seemed a little bit more geared to saying that it does not supress HPTA, and in my mind, that dos not allow for the leap of logoc that say it wont prevent recovery.

I never said you were trying to be argumentative so maybe that came out wrong. You're right, the study I posted did need additional clarification, which is why I posted the second study. I must say you do have a strong command of the english language though. It's always interesting reading your posts.
 
Juice Authority said:


I never said you were trying to be argumentative so maybe that came out wrong. You're right, the study I posted did need additional clarification, which is why I posted the second study. I must say you do have a strong command of the english language though. It's always interesting reading your posts.

Thanks. I have studied NLP, Linguistics, Hypnosis, and Mind Sciences. Plus ... I teach guys how to use many of these skills with women (not kidding - http://www.daveriker.com/coach/).

Interestingly I have learned a TON from the back-and-forth banter between you and Nelson. It's great that you guys are getting along better these days. I think his "shit taste study" comment broke the ice. LOL

Anyway I like reading your stuff as well. The dialog between the likes of you and Nelson, althoguh heated at times (but that has botteg better) has helped many gusy learn a LOT.

Now if we could just get guys to agree on post-cycle regimens, and whether or not low-dose morning dbol is supressive ...then all would be Right with the world. LOL.
 
Riker29 said:


Thanks. I have studied NLP, Linguistics, Hypnosis, and Mind Sciences. Plus ... I teach guys how to use many of these skills with women (not kidding - http://www.daveriker.com/coach/).

Interestingly I have learned a TON from the back-and-forth banter between you and Nelson. It's great that you guys are getting along better these days. I think his "shit taste study" comment broke the ice. LOL

Anyway I like reading your stuff as well. The dialog between the likes of you and Nelson, althoguh heated at times (but that has botteg better) has helped many gusy learn a LOT.

Now if we could just get guys to agree on post-cycle regimens, and whether or not low-dose morning dbol is supressive ...then all would be Right with the world. LOL.

Thanks. I appreciate the kind remarks. We're actually discussing the ideal post-cycle regimen at FG right now. Everyone is waiting on Nelson to chime about the "Post-cycle" formula from PT he helped design. Here's where we are so far...

http://www.fitnessgeared.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22688&perpage=35&pagenumber=2

Well, unintentionally I think we've collectively come up with a post-cycle formula that might actually work. Let's recap..

To help with Lipid Profile:

Guggulsterones: 180mg/day
Policosanol: 40mg/day
Green Tea(45% ECGCG): 1g/day
Tocotreniols: 1g/day(A way more potent form of Vitamin E)
Garlic(Kyolic): 1g/day
(Novaldex: 20mg/day) - also to keep estrogen from binding to the HPTA

Provirion - 25-50mg's ED

- Acts like an anti-e since it's a DHT and doesn't aromatize
- To help keep estrogen levels in check
- To help erectile dysfunction
- It does not lower FSH (like Clomid)
- It does not lower IGF-1
- It is not site specific, removing estrogen throughout the body
- It lowers SHBG (which Clomid raises) thereby incresing testosterone
- It is side effect free in the recommended dosages. (i.e. vision disturbances, acne, etc) - unlike clomid
It can not lower your e too much (like A-dex does)
- since it is not an estrogen "blocker" it does not have the possible rebound effect of nolva.
- It does not afect mood negitively like Clomid.
- It gets you hard as a rock!
- It gets you dick hard as a rock!

Nelson's post cycle formula - (Maca, Chrysin, Milk Thistle, Cndium, etc).

- To help restore hpta
- Nelson - ?

exemestane - ?
 
Nelson Montana said:
Yeah, it's hard on the hair but I think the role of DHT on hair loss is a little exagerated. If that's all it was, they could find a cure easily. If you have a predisposition to baldness, any androgen is going to exasperate it.

You can always use nizerol and some saw palmetto your scalp to counteract the effects.

personally i use SP, and nizoral 2%, as well as spironolactone topical, on or off cycle (and some minoxidil on the "bald spot area" since its cheap online). so long as you do that, your right, i don't think proviron or winny or anything will accelerate hair loss that wasn't already going to happen anyway.
 
I'm running Proviron@50 mgs per day along with .25 mgs per day of arimidex...I have done this all the way through clomid therapy...I have actually increased my strength post cycle...My questin being, Am I just wasting my arimidex ?...Could the proviron do the trick by itself... ?
 
muscleup said:
I'm running Proviron@50 mgs per day along with .25 mgs per day of arimidex...I have done this all the way through clomid therapy...I have actually increased my strength post cycle...My questin being, Am I just wasting my arimidex ?...Could the proviron do the trick by itself... ?

Well, it's hard to say for sure since there is no real concrete evidence that shows Proviron keeps estrogen from binding to the HPTA but Nolva would be a much better option since it accomplishes the same thing without messing up your lipid profile. Nolva actually improves your lipid profile.
 
Juice Authority said:


Well, it's hard to say for sure since there is no real concrete evidence that shows Proviron keeps estrogen from binding to the HPTA but Nolva would be a much better option since it accomplishes the same thing without messing up your lipid profile. Nolva actually improves your lipid profile.
So you are saying run the Nolva instead of arimidex ?..I was actaully running the Arimidex along with some clen. I'm trying to get rid of or at least reduce some a2 fat deposits that I have acquired from Bulking...
 
Juice Authority said:


imo, yes. Nolva should work to reduce some of those estrogen related fat deposits. In fact, Nolva is the only anti-e that has clinically been shown the reverse gyno after it's been formed.

I took a blood test after my PCT therapy where I was using 1mg of Arimidex Eod and my HDL was 9 and my LDL was 230.

Arimidex, it is an anti-e. It stops aromatation. Problem is, it will mess up your cholesterol levels.

Arimidex = To Prevent Estrogen Creation

Nolvadex = To Stop Estrogen from Binding

Nolvadex can and will act as a psuedo-estrogen. Arimidex will keep your aromatose activity down to a minimum. Nolva can take the place for estrogenic activities for cholesterol. Which is good! Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver.

Here's a study showing nolva lowers femara levels in the system when combined.

Impact of tamoxifen on the pharmacokinetics and endocrine effects of the aromatase inhibitor letrozole in postmenopausal women with breast cancer.

Dowsett M, Pfister C, Johnston SR, Miles DW, Houston SJ, Verbeek JA, Gundacker H, Sioufi A, Smith IE.

Department of Biochemistry, Royal Marsden Hospital, London, United Kingdom.

This study examined whether the addition of tamoxifen to the treatment regimen of patients with advanced breast cancer being treated with the aromatase inhibitor letrozole led to any pharmacokinetic or pharmacodynamic interaction. Twelve of 17 patients completed the core period of the trial in which 2.5 mg/day letrozole was administered alone for 6 weeks and in combination with 20 mg/day tamoxifen for the subsequent 6 weeks. Patients responding to treatment continued on the combination until progression of disease or any other reason for discontinuation. Plasma levels of letrozole were measured at the end of the 6-week periods of treatment with letrozole alone and the combination and once more between 4 and 8 months on combination therapy. No further measurements were done thereafter. Hormone levels were measured at 2-week intervals throughout the core period. Marked suppression of estradiol, estrone, and estrone sulfate occurred with letrozole treatment, and this was not significantly affected by the addition of tamoxifen. However, plasma levels of letrozole were reduced by a mean 37.6% during combination therapy (P<0.0001), and this reduction persisted after 4-8 months of combination therapy. Letrozole is the first drug to be described in which this pharmacokinetic interaction occurs with tamoxifen. The mechanism is likely to be a consequence of an induction of letrozole-metabolizing enzymes by tamoxifen but was not further addressed in this study. It is possible that the antitumor efficacy of letrozole may be affected. Thus, sequential therapy may be preferable with these two drugs. It is not known whether tamoxifen interacts with other members of this class of drugs or with other drugs in combination.
Well thats good cause the Arimidex(Astra Zeneca) is WAY more expensive than the Nolvadex...Karma bro...Thanks
 
muscleup said:
So you are saying run the Nolva instead of arimidex ?..I was actaully running the Arimidex along with some clen. I'm trying to get rid of or at least reduce some a2 fat deposits that I have acquired from Bulking...

imo, yes. Nolva should work to reduce some of those estrogen related fat deposits. In fact, Nolva is the only anti-e that has clinically been shown the reverse gyno after it's been formed.

I took a blood test after my PCT therapy where I was using 1mg of Arimidex Eod and my HDL was 9 and my LDL was 230.

Arimidex, it is an anti-e. It stops aromatation. Problem is, it will mess up your cholesterol levels.

Arimidex = To Prevent Estrogen Creation

Nolvadex = To Stop Estrogen from Binding

Nolvadex can and will act as a psuedo-estrogen. Arimidex will keep your aromatose activity down to a minimum. Nolva can take the place for estrogenic activities for cholesterol. Which is good! Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver.

Here's a study showing nolva lowers femara levels in the system when combined.

Impact of tamoxifen on the pharmacokinetics and endocrine effects of the aromatase inhibitor letrozole in postmenopausal women with breast cancer.

Dowsett M, Pfister C, Johnston SR, Miles DW, Houston SJ, Verbeek JA, Gundacker H, Sioufi A, Smith IE.

Department of Biochemistry, Royal Marsden Hospital, London, United Kingdom.

This study examined whether the addition of tamoxifen to the treatment regimen of patients with advanced breast cancer being treated with the aromatase inhibitor letrozole led to any pharmacokinetic or pharmacodynamic interaction. Twelve of 17 patients completed the core period of the trial in which 2.5 mg/day letrozole was administered alone for 6 weeks and in combination with 20 mg/day tamoxifen for the subsequent 6 weeks. Patients responding to treatment continued on the combination until progression of disease or any other reason for discontinuation. Plasma levels of letrozole were measured at the end of the 6-week periods of treatment with letrozole alone and the combination and once more between 4 and 8 months on combination therapy. No further measurements were done thereafter. Hormone levels were measured at 2-week intervals throughout the core period. Marked suppression of estradiol, estrone, and estrone sulfate occurred with letrozole treatment, and this was not significantly affected by the addition of tamoxifen. However, plasma levels of letrozole were reduced by a mean 37.6% during combination therapy (P<0.0001), and this reduction persisted after 4-8 months of combination therapy. Letrozole is the first drug to be described in which this pharmacokinetic interaction occurs with tamoxifen. The mechanism is likely to be a consequence of an induction of letrozole-metabolizing enzymes by tamoxifen but was not further addressed in this study. It is possible that the antitumor efficacy of letrozole may be affected. Thus, sequential therapy may be preferable with these two drugs. It is not known whether tamoxifen interacts with other members of this class of drugs or with other drugs in combination.
 
JibbyJabba said:
My only apprehension about Proviron is, due to its androgenic nature, that it seemingly is pretty rough on the hair... this is further confirmed by some of its users...

Can anyone shed anymore light Proviron with respect to hair loss?

i just came off a short cycle that ended with 30mg Winny ED, 100mg Test Prop EOD and 25-50mg Proviron ED (depending on whether or not fucking was eminent). according to what i've read over the past few months this combination should have been very hard on my hair... but it wasn't. i had no shedding and no visible recession of the hairline, and i have MPB. i would tend to agree with Nelson on the dubious role of DHT in hairloss.

it should be noted that i used every precaution: minoxidil ED, polysorbate 80 ED and finasteride 1mg around EOD (depending on whether or not fucking was eminent). :D
 
I'd also add that e related fat deposits, although not necessarily a total myth, are a bit of an exageration. e will increase water retention, which looks fat, but you can lose water. The actual fat thought to be gained from e is usually just good old fashioned fat. On the other hand, proviron does make you hard, but not so much from the actual reduction of e but the lessened water, the incresed free T and the fact that DHT seems to increase muscle hardness. (For reasons I'm not fully sure of).
 
Nelson Montana said:
I'd also add that e related fat deposits, although not necessarily a total myth, are a bit of an exageration. e will increase water retention, which looks fat, but you can lose water. The actual fat thought to be gained from e is usually just good old fashioned fat. On the other hand, proviron does make you hard, but not so much from the actual reduction of e but the lessened water, the incresed free T and the fact that DHT seems to increase muscle hardness. (For reasons I'm not fully sure of).

Good point. I've noticed the hardening effect when on proviron. Anyone have an answer on why DHT derivatives (such as proviron, primo and winstrol) see to increae muscle hardness? There has to be a reason, anyone have a solid theory on this?
 
BodyByFinaplix said:


Good point. I've noticed the hardening effect when on proviron. Anyone have an answer on why DHT derivatives (such as proviron, primo and winstrol) see to increae muscle hardness? There has to be a reason, anyone have a solid theory on this?

I don't know how solid this theory is but here it goes..

Proviron decreases the total water build-up of the body giving the appearance of muscle hardness. This is most likely due to its reduction in circulating estrogen or perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue.
 
Big Cats profile on Proviron.

Mesterolone is an orally active, 1-methylated DHT. Like Masteron, but then actually delivered in an oral fashion. DHT is the conversion product of testosterone at the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, the result being a hormone that is 3 to 4 times as androgenic and is structurally incapable of forming estrogen. One would imagine then that mesterolone would be a perfect drug to enhance strength and add small but completely lean gains to the frame. Unfortunately there is a control mechanism for DHT in the human body. When levels get too high, the 3alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme converts it to a mostly inactive compound known as 3-alpha (5-alpha-androstan-3alpha,17beta-diol), a prohormone if you will. It can equally convert back to DHT by way of the same enzyme when low levels of DHT are detected. But it means that unless one uses ridiculously high amounts, most of what is administered is quite useless at the height of the androgen receptor in muscle tissue and thus mesterolone is not particularly suited, if at all, to promote muscle hypertrophy.

Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.

The second use is in enhancing the potency of testosterone. Testosterone in the body at normal physiological levels is mostly inactive. As much as 97 or 98 percent of testosterone in that amount is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin, two proteins. In such a form testosterone is mostly inactive. But as with the aromatase enzyme, DHT has a higher affinity for these proteins than testosterone does, so when administered simultaneously the mesterolone will attach to the SHBG and albumin, leaving larger amounts of free testosterone to mediate anabolic activities such as protein synthesis. Another way in which it helps to increase gains. Its also another part of the equation that makes it ineffective on its own, as binding to these proteins too, would render it a non-issue at the androgen receptor.

Thirdly, mesterolone is added in pre-contest phases to increase a distinct hardness and muscle density. Probably due to its reduction in circulating estrogen, perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue, it decreases the total water build-up of the body giving its user a much leaner look, and a visual effect of possessing "harder" muscles with more cuts and striations. Proviron is often used as a last-minute secret by a lot of bodybuilders and both actors and models have used it time and again to deliver top shape day in day out, when needed. Like the other methylated DHT compound, drostanolone, mesterolone is particularly potent in achieving this feat.

Lastly Proviron is used during a cycle of certain hormones such as nandrolone, with a distinct lack of androgenic nature, or perhaps 5-alpha reduced hormones that don't have the same affinities as DHT does. Such compounds, thinking of trenbolone, nandrolone and such in particular, have been known to decrease libido. Limiting the athlete to perform sexually being the logical result. DHT plays a key role in this process and is therefore administered in conjunction with such steroids to ease or relieve this annoying side-effect. Proviron is also commonly prescribed by doctors to people with low levels of testosterone, or patients with chronic impotence. Its not perceived as a powerful anabolic, but it gets the job done equally well if not better than other anabolic steroids making it a favorite in medical practices due to its lower chance of abuse.

Mesterolone is generally well liked nonetheless as it delivers very few side-effects in men. In high doses it can cause some virilization symptoms in women. But because of the high level of deactivation and pre-destination in the system (albumin, SHBG, 3bHSD, aromatase) quite a lot of it, if not all simply never reaches the androgen receptor where it would cause anabolic effects, but also side-effects. So its relatively safe. Doses between 25 and 250 mg per day are used with no adverse effects. 50 mg per day is usually sufficient to be effective in each of the four cases we mentioned up above, so going higher really isn't necessary. Unlike what some suggest or believe,

I will post an abstract to refute these next statements at the bottom of the page

Its not advised that Proviron be used when not used in conjunction with another steroid, as it too is quite suppressive of natural testosterone, leading to all sorts of future complications upon discontinuation. Ranging from loss of libido or erectile dysfunction all the way up to infertility. One would not be aware of such dangers because Proviron fulfills most of the functions of normal levels of testosterone.

Stacking and Use:

Mesterolone is an oral alkylated steroid. If used primarily as an anti-aromatase drug, using it throughout a longer cycle (10-12 weeks) of injectables may elevate liver values a little bit, though much, much less than one would expect with a 17-alpha-alkylated steroid. Eventhough instead of inhibiting gains, mesterolone may actually contribute to gains. So that's a bit of a shame. Its not quite as toxic since its not alkylated in the same fashion, but at the 1 position, which reduces hepatic breakdown, but not like 17-alpha alkylation. The reason for the change of position I assume, is because alkylating at the 17-alpha position has been shown to reduce affinity for sex hormone binding proteins. This would in turn decrease its ability to free testosterone. Nonetheless the delivery rate is quite good. Its taken daily in 50-100 mg doses.

The best thing to stack it with is testosterone of course. Its most easily bound to SHBG and albumin, and deactivated for up to 98%. Since the DHT can compete for these structures with higher affinity it would naturally lead to a higher yield of whatever testosterone product you stacked it with. Since DHT levels are notably higher now there is also more stimulation of the androgen receptor causing more strength gains, and because of its affinity for aromatase the overall estrogen level decreases as well. This has as a result that gains are leaner, and once again the overall testosterone yield is increased as less I converted at the aromatase enzyme.

It's of course used in other stacks with products such as methandrostenolone, boldenone and nandrolone to reduce estrogenic activity and increase muscle hardness. The addition of proviron makes boldenone a dead lock for a cutting stack and for some may even make it possible to use nandrolone while cutting, although the use of Winstrol or a receptor antagonist in conjunction is wishful as well. The benefit of adding it to a nandrolone stack is that it may also help you reduce the decrease in libido suffered from nandrolone, since the latter is mostly deactivated by 5-alpha reductase, an enzyme that makes other hormones more androgenic.

Proviron is an anti-aromatase, so obviously anti-estrogens would be futile and redundant. Blood pressure medication for those prone to hypertension may be wise, as this DHT can increase the blood pressure.

Abstract refuting that Proviron is not highly suppressive

Here is the study I was referring to. Only 85 men out of 250 showed any suppression. Proviron did not shut down the HPTA in any of the subjects and that was at 150mg for 1 year. I would say its pretty safe and has very little effect on one's HPTA

This study shows no effect on normal LH and FSH with 100-150mg/ d mesterolone, and decrease of FSH/LH that were elevated.
Proviron doesn't substitute Clomid as hpta therapy, but doesn't get in the way, either.
The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.

Varma TR, Patel RH.

Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

PMID: 2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

One more...
Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.

Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.

We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone, estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased.



Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL.




There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH.
Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in T3 and increases in T3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged.



In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH.


Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
 
Please confirm that studies based on Proviron should also be valid for its brother Masteron. Both are DHT - one purely oral Proviron, the other an esterfied.

Its possible that Masteron may be better at keeping muscle due to its stronger resistance to breakdown (2 vs. 1 methylated). This property will also create slightly more potential for supression.

Twistedneck.
 
Nelson Montana said:
It gets you hard as a rock!


It gets you dick hard as a rock!


It really is the best and only logical drug choice.

I think most people who try using Proviron post-cycle will be disappointed with its hardening effects. In my experience with it... it ONLY made my dick hard. I found Proviron useless as an anti-estrogen. Dispite having low body fat, Proviron did not make my build harder or denser. Its a weak anti-e... at best. Doesn't even come close to Nolvadex or Arimidex. For those of you who are thinking, after reading this thread, that Proviron is a replacement for tried and true ancilliaries... you're in for a big suprize.
 
Well since Proviron binds strongly to SHBG and SHBG has a lower affinity for estrogen that test guess what happens. The estrogen is `released` more so than the test and so for some period the estrogen to androgen level is INCREASED. This probably is not that significant unless you have some considerable perpencty towards estrogen side effects.
 
Krazykat said:
Well since Proviron binds strongly to SHBG and SHBG has a lower affinity for estrogen that test guess what happens. The estrogen is `released` more so than the test and so for some period the estrogen to androgen level is INCREASED. This probably is not that significant unless you have some considerable perpencty towards estrogen side effects.


Whoever told you this is more than a little confused.
 
Finished a Deca/Test/Proviron/Nolvadex cycle and was planning on using clomid for post cycle. But after reading a little more, decided to run the Proviron/Nolvadex a little longer for post cycle. Just finishing up my post cycle and like this combo a lot more than Clomid only. Clomid turned me into a emotional, pimple faced wreck. The only drawback was a definite hair thinning... and I normally have thick, coarse hair!
 
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